Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Have your daughter call him.  Let *him* explain it to her.
    fred();

    Thanks for the info.  I've thought of that -- but here's the update. 
    My Ex phoned last night at 8:15 p.m. to talk to his daughter -- she
    was already in bed sound asleep. I told him this (I even tried to wake
    her up so she could talk to him).  He wanted to let me know that he
    thought about the conversation we had and he doesn't want me to call
    the house unless it's an emergency!  i.e. life and death situation.
    I had to call this last time because I had asked for a dental form for
    my daughter 4 times and did not receive it -- this is the third time
    I've gone through this with them -- to the point where I had to get
    my lawyer involved the last time just to get a dental form!  My Ex
    is also supposed to carry life insurance with his daughter as
    beneficiary according to the permanent stipulation of two + years ago.
    I had to get a lawyer involved here (we both have to carry insurance
    with our daughter as beneficiary) -- his life insurance policy names
    his wife -- they promised in front of a judge to produce the proper
    paper work!  Nothing!  I also wanted to let him know his daughter was
    crying for him -- this doesn't constitute an emergency?  I don't know
    what the problem is here and quite frankly I give up!  I'm being made
    out to be the ogre here and I just don't like it.  Needless to say, I
    kind of lost it with him and told him that if his daughter is crying to
    see him, then by gosh I'm gonna call and let him know.  To me it's an
    emergency!  He threatened to slap a restraining order on me!  The only
    time I call his house is when the support is long overdue (I NEED the
    $55 to pay daycare -- I don't make a ton of money on a secretarial
    salary) -- If I didn't need the money to keep my daycare, I wouldn't
    ask for it.  Quite frankly I think I do pretty damn well raising a
    child these days, keeping a roof over our heads, having no debt.  I
    can't work overtime because I don't have anyone to watch my daughter
    after hours so that doesn't help much besides it's been thrown in my
    face by my Ex's wife that someone else is raising my daughter anyway
    because I chose to have a career (I didn't -- we couldn't have afforded
    to live and would have been bankrupt if I didn't work back then).  What
    I think I'm trying to say here is that they continue to try to lay
    blame on me for things that are beyond my control and I continue to
    allow them to do so.  My daughter is better off without these people in
    her life.  I think my Ex's wife is afraid that she'll be found out as
    the one who has created the problems in a father's relationship with
    his child -- What a manipulater!  Does my Ex have the right to decide
    when he's going to see his daughter?  Once every eight weeks or as the
    mood hits him?  Or when is wife decides it's o.k. for him to spend time
    with his daughter -- provided they have nothing else going on?  The man
    obviously doesn't care what effect this has on his daughter?  His
    response is -- she's too young to know any better -- he could have
    gotten away with that statement two years ago, but not anymore.  I'm
    sorry, but I am the product of a broken home and I remember when I was
    four.  I'm just venting.

    
    
    Your EX is the only person who is preventing himself from seeing his
    daughter!!!!    He is allowing you and his wife to pin the blame on 
    your shoulders.  Clearly this is wrong.  What can be done about it?
    Well you can't change him or her, but you can stop ACCEPTING the blame.
    By that I mean chill out on yourself.  Stop listening and hearing them
    tell you it is all your fault.  
    
    Unfortunately there is little you can do to get him to change.  Only
    he can do that not even his new wife.  However, what you can do it
    explain to your daughter the truth in a manner a four year old can
    understand.  I see nothing wrong with telling her why Daddy does not
    want to visit her.  Afterall, it is going to come out in the end 
    anyway.  At least she would be given an answer to a question that has
    been bothering her.  It may sound harsh, but telling her reasons that
    are untrue is far worse than telling her the truth.
    
    It would be very difficult for him to get a restraining order barring
    you from calling him.  He is the child's father and you have every
    right in the world to contact him regarding the daughter you both
    parented.  I doubt a judge would deny that.  
    
    
    Have him talk to your daughter directly though.  He must be the one
    to tell her why he does not want to see her.  However, I believe you
    should be present if your help is needed.  But in no way would I let
    him tell her untruths about the situation as it will hurt her more.
    
    
    Good luck,
    Michele
    
    
    PS  as hard as it may be IGNORE his wife!!!!

    I agree with -1...
    
    You are allowing your ex to make you feel guilty about his
    irresponsibility towards his little girl.
    
    Your ex is responsible for his actions... not his present wife.  He
    seems unable to own that responsibility, to me.  He rationalizes
    everything by pointing fingers at someone else... the ensuing fights,
    the new wife's kids, you "badgering", your child's demands...but NEVER
    at his own inability to own the problem of visiting his own child.
    
    And, it sounds like his new wife is on a power trip.  She is able to
    control and manipulate him.  She makes HIM feel guilty about his past,
    and he blames YOU for it.  Neither one of them sound like they are
    willing to take ownership of their own problems..
    
    Now, what can or should YOU do?
    
    You can start by realizing (and really accepting) the fact that your ex
    doesn't have a lot of interest in your child.  It appears that way to
    me, at least.
    
    You can continue to make her available to him for visits, but, you
    should not insist on them.  After all, how good will it be for your
    daughter if he is "forced" to visit...?  
    
    You can speak honestly to your daughter.  Four years is pretty young,
    and she won't understand a lot, but she will learn.  I suggest you NOT
    say negative things about your ex to her...as frustrated with him as
    you are.  Let him show her, over time, and through his own actions,
    what kind of a father he is.
    
    As to your child's crying for him?  That is an understandable reaction
    for a youngster.  My 12 year old son cries for me.  It happens, and
    it's better (I think) for her to display these emotions than to bottle
    them inside.  If it persists, perhaps your daughter could benefit from
    some child counselling herself.
    
    In a nutshell:  You cannot change the ex.  You cannot change his wife's
    feelings.  You are responsible ONLY for your feelings and for the TLC
    of your daughter.  Do NOT assume any ownership for the anger the ex or
    his family feel towards you... that only hurts yourself and your
    daughter.  
    
    You seem to be doing ok with everything else.  Don't let them scare you
    from being assertive and powerfull about your rights (re: late
    payments)... but stop insisting he visit your daughter.
    
    
    tony
    

    But why should you make the guy feel bad about his own mistake? I think
    he has enought troubles. If you daughter wants to write him or send him
    flowers that would be a plan. But remember that divorce makes the
    alienation process because of the system that governs us all. 

    
    
    George,
    
    I don't think this woman is making her ex feel bad about what has
    happened.  I think that his new wife clearly is the controller in the
    relationship.  Personally, any parent who has a child taken away from
    them in whatever manner has already suffered enough for their mistake.
    Unfortunately the child also suffers the pain.
    
    Michele

    Michele,
    
    	This is very true! I am trying to say that he can be in very deep
    pain and dispite what was said by the base noter, to whom we are
    hearing just one side of the story, that it is the ex's wife that is
    causing hardship between the child and the ex. I am not trying to say
    that the base noter is untruthful either. I am trying to say that
    perhaps the man is trying to supress his emotions by saying good-bye to
    the child. And that he is in bankruptcy and is trying to pay off money
    that he owes to the base noter and because he is behind, he feels bad,
    and to stop feeling bad he does not confront his problem he trys to
    avoid them. Which places the child in the middle agian. 
    
    

    re .8
    
    George may well be correct.  I've seen a lot of men who stop visiting
    their children, and a lot who've stopped paying child support and
    just *dissappear*, because they cannot deal emotionally with the 
    reminder of the pain.  They rationalize this by saying "it's probably
    better for the child" when it's really themselves that can't deal
    with the situation.
    
    fred();

re:            <<< Note 122.8 by AIMHI::RAUH "Home of The Cruel Spa" >>>
                             -< hope that helped >-

<    ...  I am trying to say that he can be in very deep
<    pain ...that it is the ex's wife that is
<    causing hardship between the child and the ex...I am trying to say that
<    perhaps the man is trying to supress his emotions by saying good-bye to
<    the child.... and because he is behind, he feels bad,
<    and to stop feeling bad he does not confront his problem he trys to
<    avoid them. Which places the child in the middle agian. 
<    
    This extract from George's note points to a very real problem.  One
    with which I struggle myself.  In several books (about self-help,
    recovering from divorce, etc.) one fact seems to loom:  In nearly all
    relationships, one spouse is stronger-willed than the other...and,
    given the right (really wrong, I guess) circumstances, that stronger
    person (here represented by hubby's new wife, and in my previous
    existance, by my own 'ex') will dominate, to the point of manipulation,
    the weaker spouse.  In my case, and i feel it's the case here, the
    husband withdrew inside himself, and "let go" of what was important. 
    At least I am assuming his child 'was' important at one time, to him. 
    In any event, in order to protect himself from a hostile relationship,
    he seems to be withdrawing from what she claims is the problem; his ex
    and his child, while at the same time, her own children are moved into
    a much more honored and elevated position in his own life.  These sorts
    of behaviour are not uncommon (I think), and are largely defensive
    strategies... it's far easier to hide anxiety than to confront it. 
    It's much 'safer' to suppress hurt/anger than to face it.  At least for
    people who have tendencies to that trait.
    
    I lived in such a world for nearly 25 years... I did it so well I
    didn't even know (most of the time) how miserable I was.  I
    rationalized my propensity to suppress myself and my anxieties with the
    notion that it was making my relationship with my wife a happier one. 
    Hell, it wasn't even making HER happy, much less myself.  I finally
    realized what I was doing to my children, my relationship, and most
    importantly myself.  THEN I took ownership of the problem, and stopped
    depending on others (which means stopped BLAMING others) for my
    happiness or lack of it.
    
    This guy needs to do that.  And no one, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, can do
    it for him!  
    
    The fact that he may be hurting inside is only an excuse.  Sure he
    hurts.  His kid does too.  And probably a lot of other folks....
    because he is unhappy with the situation and everybody feels badly
    about that... but it is HIS problem, and HE has to own it.  It'll never
    get fixed unless he does.
    
    And when he does, everybody will win.
    
    tony    

    

    The whole story is deja vu to me as mine is the same....and what I
    finally did was:
    
    Called my ex at his work place (NOT at his home) and told him that he
    has visitation rights and if he chooses to visit his child call me in
    advance to set it up. 
    
    I never called again unless it was an emergency like the child was in
    the hospital or such....
    
    I always had my daughter send Christmas, birthday etc holiday cards to
    her father. (and he hever in 16 years sent her one!!!!)
    
    I always hugged her and loved her and listened to her (for 18 years)
    when she would cry for him wishing she could sees him or wishing he
    would have remembered her birthday, her graduation from school,
    christmas etc!
    
    I never said a mean or spiteful thing about him.....when she would ask
    if he didn't like her or why he didn't visit her I would usually say
    something like yes he loves her but he is very very busy with his own
    life....
    
    I would allow her to call him whenever she wanted....but the calls
    usually ended with her in tears and the calls became uncomfortable and
    soon they ended.....I remember when she was so excited about graduation
    from high school and the new job she had for that summer and she hadn't
    talked to him for a very long time but she wanted to call him and share
    her excitement...so she did but before she could even finish telling
    him about the job he interrupted her and talked about himself and his
    wife and their new swimming pool and their sons (he has no other
    daughters) etc...she hung up and said...God Mom....he is so self
    centered and selfish...he won't even listen to me!!!
    
    It goes on....
    
    But the best part is ....give it up....forget about him as much as
    possible.....let the attorney deal with him...get a stack of insurance
    forms...don't subject yourself to having to ask for one at a
    time...ignore his wife and his problems....go on with your life and be
    happy with your child...and DON'T count on him for anything!!!!and most
    of all:
    
    KNOW WHAT A GOOD MOTHER AND PERSON YOU ARE AND WHAT A SPECIAL PERSON
    YOUR DAUGHTER IS...AND HOW LUCKY YOU ARE TO HAVE EACH OTHER!!
    
    This is just my .02 cents worth
    
    ellie
    write me offline if you need to talk....I totally understand the child
    support end too....it can be frustrating....

    WOW! Good replys by both .10 & .11. I am new, as you all know, about
    this stupid game. I have custody of my daughter. And have talked to
    alot of other men and women and their views of what they percieve the
    role play of divorce. From the guys who say,'the kids are better off
    with mom', to, 'giver hell!'.. I know what it is like to grow up with a
    great step dad. But I was lucky. The whole thing is like some Charles
    Dickens novel that has the children bearing the brunt of the story, the
    pain and etc. The children who will grow up giving out the pain that
    they recieved when they were children to others. For they are carring a
    very big emotional baggage. 
    
    	My statements of the ex in pain are from what I have seen as I talk
    to others. I wish that there was some better way to deal with such BS.
    I guess by talking about it here perhaps we can think of better ways
    that we can instill in our own  hearts and heads. And perhaps someone
    will help pass laws and etc that will help us all.

    to the basenoter..
    
    How are things going for you and your daughter?  Are they any better?

    I am sorry for not sending along an update sooner, but I've been trying
    to absorb alot of late.  I have more or less resigned myself to the
    fact that my daughter's father will only see her when it's convenient
    for him no matter what I have to say about it.  Also until he can stand
    up for his daughter's rights in his own home, that this is the way it
    will continue.  I only wish that for the benefit of my daugher, that he
    would just stay out of her life completely rather than coming and going
    on a bi-monthly basis and for a one day visit.  This past May 4 my
    daughter did have the opportunity to see her father, but not with a lot
    of frustration on her part.  Her father called me the Thursday prior
    (following the divorce decree that if he would like to see her he is to
    call me 48 hours prior -- this of course was to be used on those days
    when he wanted to spend Xtra time with her -- which he doesn't) to see
    if he could see his daughter on Saturday -- he couldn't see her on
    Sunday also because he had to go to Maine (had to pick up his boys --
    have no idea why his daughter isn't welcome for the ride --
    INCONVENIENT).  He said he'd pick her up between 9:00 - 10:00 a.m. and
    have her home around 6:00 p.m. -- needless to say my daughter stood
    looking out the window waiting for daddy from 9:00 - 11:30!  She is
    getting older and questioned "Why is my daddy taking so long?"  My
    response "Honey, I don't know.  Why don't you ask him when he arrives."
    You can only imagine what was going through my mind!  This man is
    going to stand-up his own daughter!  He did show up and sure enough
    the little one said "Daddy, why did you take so long?"  Answer "I
    had to get my truck inspected and it took longer than I thought".
    Why he couldn't pick his daughter up and take her with him and do a
    side walk to Micky Dee's is beyond me.  Never mind!  I know --
    NOT CONVENIENT.  Of course his wife was with him -- she got out of
    their van and stood beside him (to make sure he was o.k. standing by
    himself).  The blessing in all of this is that his wife now knows I
    have no interest in ever listening to any of the blind lies she's been
    so used to throwing in my direction.  The story doesn't end here.  I
    went to a mall near where my ex and his wife live with my boyfriend and
    while we were having a bite to eat, through the restaraunt walks my
    Ex's wife.  She saw me and her eyes hit the floor!  It's really too bad
    that she can't act like an adult and acknowledge me!  I hope she's
    ashamed of what she's done as far as my daughter is concerned.  I don't
    know.  Of course where wife goes, hubby goes.  My Ex was shopping in
    the mall with his wife 1 hour after he picked up his daughter. 
    Daughter no where in sight.  QUALITY TIME!!!! Her boys were
    babysitting.  The nice part of this is they boys love Kelly to death
    and Kelly loves them to death.  Another thing that I've noticed as of
    late is that Kelly has not been asking for daddy anymore.  Is this
    because she has resigned herself in her own mind that she'll see daddy
    when she sees him?  I know for a fact that my Ex's parents will be at
    his house on Sunday June 2 (Kelly's grandparents send her postcards and
    pictures with what's going on in the family -- and we in turn send them
    pictures of her, drawings she's done, and little cards that she's
    signed).  After all, family was and will always be very important to me
    and my Ex's parents and Kelly should not have to suffer the grief of
    never knowing each other because of divorce.  I do my best to keep
    those lines of communication open.  My problem here is this.  My Ex has
    seen his daughter 4 times this year for 1/2 day to 1 day each of those
    4 weekends.  I know for a fact I will receive a call at work (he's not
    supposed to call me at work due to a court order for fighting with me
    during my work hours)next Thursday (48 hours notice) to see if he can
    take his daughter on Sunday for the day only -- there will be some kind
    of excuse for Saturday (that's a given).  Here's my nasty side folks
    coming at you in vivid color!  God knows he doesn't want to look like a
    lousy absentee father in front of his parents!!!!!!!!  I want to be
    nasty and say sorry -- I'm busy that weekend -- but I can't do that to
    Kelly or his parents!  I know that's just turning around and doing to
    them what they have done to my daughter, but I just get tired of them
    always assuming that they can take Kelly when they feel like it.  I
    want to say -- you will see her on a regular basis or NOT AT ALL!
    Can you tell I'm still trying to get a grip on my anger here.  Thank
    god I don't say this stuff at home!  The next time they call on a
    special occasion (birthday, XMAS) to ask what Kelly needs, I want to
    say to them -- A father who gives a damn!  But I won't.  I just hate
    living out lives according to when they want to see Kelly.  I hate to
    make plans for the weekends she's to see her father on the off chance
    that maybe, just maybe he'll come around.  I don't ever want to deny
    Kelly what LITTLE time she has with him.  Is a 1/4 time dad better than
    no dad at all?  We are going on with our lives basically as though her
    dad will never be around -- if he calls, he calls which he does every
    eight weeks or so.  The problem I have to get a grip on is to not
    cancel my plans with my daughter just so she can see her dad and feel
    guilty when I say no.
    
    Thanks for caring and giving me the chance to vent!  God knows
    sometimes I just need to get it off my chest!  I've never hated someone
    so much for denying my child the love she deserves!  I'm glad I'm her
    mom!
    
    Thanks again!
    
    Doe
    

    Doe,
    
    I really feel for you and Kelly...  And I don't think you're nasty
    at all for having the urge to tell him you have plans if he calls
    you this Thursday.  It's only human nature to want to get back at
    him, and I think you're a tremendous person that you can just put
    that anger aside for Kelly's sake.  She may have an absentee dad,
    but she's got one heck of a great mom!
    
    I think that the way you're handling things now is the best way.
    You just have to accept the fact that you'll never change him and
    if you can come to terms with it, you'll be in a better position to
    help Kelly through it all.  His new wife sounds like a royal b*tch
    and I truly believe that she'll get what she deserves in the end.
    It may sound corny, but "what goes around comes around" really does
    happen.  She will probably never experience true joy because she
    is such a miserable person.  But you, my dear, are loving, sensitive,
    and compassionate and your life will be filled with all kinds of
    rewards that will come in the form of being at peace with yourself.
    
    Take care,
    Kathryn
    

    Well all -- it's been a long long time since I've been in here to ask
    advice.  I've been a read only.  I'm a little nervous about what's
    going on in my EX's life right now -- all which is not good.  My
    daughter has been seeing her dad on a bi-weekly basis since September. 
    If you read back a couple, this has not been the case.  He does not
    call, but at least sees her every other weekend.  Well,  dad came to
    pick his daughter up on Sat. a.m. for the weekend.  Yesterday a.m. I
    was sitting having coffee and lo and behold a truck pulled up in the
    front of the house!  It was dad and daughter.  The truck was packed
    full -- I thought something was wrong -- Kelly came running to mom not
    crying or anything, seeming quite happy to be coming home.  Dad was
    grabbing her bag out of the back of the truck -- her clothes were just
    thrown in the back not even in the bag.  He apologized hoping that he
    had everything.  I asked if everything was okay and he said he couldn't
    talk about it right now!  He left his wife.  Of course, my
    soon-to-be-five-year-old was more than happy to offer info.  "Mommy,
    daddy doesn't love his wife anymore" -- seems all he__ broke loose this
    weekend and my daughter's dad packed his bag and baggage and left his
    wife and her three kids.  Don't know where he went just that my
    daughter said that daddy told her he was going to live in a house
    without his wife and her three kids!  I'm am sure that there a valid
    reasons for his leaving as his wife is not liked by his friends, his
    family, etc.  She spent all his money and put the poor man into
    bankruptcy.  God only knows why he left.  I am hoping and praying that
    because this has happened that once again I'm going to be put in a
    position of not getting the child support which PAYS FOR MY DAUGHTER'S
    DAYCARE ($55/per week).  Does he have to support this woman in the
    house and her three kids prior to supporting his daughter?  I guess I'm
    panicking because I don't know what I'm going to do if I don't receive
    help from him in the daycare department.  I used my savings paying my
    other daycare provider when he and his new family couldn't afford to
    pay me the support the court assigned because they were busy
    refurnishing their house and buying new cars and putting the boys
    through baseball, soccer and skiing lessons + equipment!  My daughter
    was never included in any of this. 
    I don't mean to sound like a horrible person that just want this man's
    money, because I don't.  If I didn't need the money, I certainly
    wouldn't be asking him to help.  The grief I've gone through just to
    get that $$ to help sometimes isn't worth it.  Is my daughter
    protected?

    re .16
    
    If he is the father of the children of the "other woman" then he is
    probably going to have to pay child support or them AT THE SAME TIME
    as he is paying child support to you.  If he is not the father and
    has not adopted the children then he is not liable for "child support"
    for them.  However, he may have to pay some sort of "spousal
    maintainence" to her, and may get the 'ol "she got the gold mine and
    I got the shaft" ( she gets property--he gits debts ) treatment from
    the divorce court.  Also the court may try to stick it to *him* with
    "alimony" in order to see that the kids don't end up on welfare.
    
    fred();
    

    The children are from her previous marriage and she receives mucho $$$
    in support for them.  She had the audacity to tell me what she gets per
    child after they took me to court to have my support reduced.  Also she
    does work and has more than once made sure I knew how much she took
    home waitressing.  When we divorced I really tried hard not to be
    unfair to him -- unfortunately I know she won't be.  I can say that as
    I've known her since we all went to high school together 15 + years
    ago.  If she works, why should she receive spousal support from him? 
    If the courts award this woman anything I hope he fights it!  She bled
    him dry, what more can she get from him other than blood!  Sorry -- 
    that was harsh!