Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    Do not assume that assets or debts get divided equally.  There are
    a lot of things that effect who gets what.  
    
    When it comes to the debts, the type of debts, the relative earning
    power of the parties, who gets the asset (if any) associated with the
    debt, etc. can be considered.  Very often -- perhaps too often -- the
    husband ends up with the bulk of the debts.
    
    I strongly recommend that the parties do their best to come to an
    agreement on who gets what -- including the debts -- and not leave it
    up to the judge.  (S)he does not have a vested interest, the parties
    do, and, what looks fair to him/her -- remember (s)he is dealing with 
    the case for a matter of minutes or hours -- may not be the most equitable 
    solution. 
    
    Polly
    

    
    
    
    I asked the question about debt mainly because that is the one area
    that still was unclear to me if my divorce took a turn for the worse
    and became a totally bitter battle. 
    
    As of yesterday, my wife and I had agreed on all parts (support,
    assets, debt, visitation, etc.) except for one: I wanted assurance in
    the decree that she would not uproot the kids and remove them from my
    life. I wanted this assurance in the form of a line in the decree that
    says, in effect, my wife would forfeit physical custody if she moved
    more than 50 miles away from her current residence. The purpose of this
    line was NOT to force her to forfeit custody, but rather to make any
    decisions about moving in the future easy decisions (her reasoning
    will, I'm certain, be that "if I move more than 50 miles away I forfeit
    physical custody of the kids -- so the decision is made, I don't
    move"). 
    
    We have two children (13 year old daughter and 6 year old son).
    I see both children 5 days out of 14 (every Wednesday, every other
    weekend, and every other Thursday). We have a good relationship, they 
    enjoy their visits (we've been separated for a couple of months now). 
    
    Last night I talked with my wife, again "drawing the line" (this was
    the only thing left that would cause a contested, unfriendly parting).
    My wife talked with my daughter, and later over the phone related the
    conversation to me. My daughter, with infinite wisdom said "Mom, how
    would you feel if we up and moved from you." (These words in writing
    sound like a threat, but they really weren't presented that way -- they 
    were presented so that my wife could see how important security
    is in a relationship). My wife committed to including the line in the
    decree, so we have now resolved everything (fingers crossed).
    
    -Mike

    re .2
    
    Good work Mike.  And horray also for your ex in being able to work
    out a solution.  Best of luck to all of you.
    
    fred();

What would drive the daughter to ask such a question, unless she had knowledge
of what was going on in the divorce proceedings.  I'm making an assumption that
she must know, which I think it pitiful.  Tell me I'm wrong?

Kristen

    Hi Kristen, my daughter does not know all of the details of our
    divorce. I also think it would be pitiful if she were put in the middle 
    as "choose this or choose that". However, mother and daughter are also 
    pretty good friends, and her mother talked about things with her as a
    friend. Keep in mind that this conversation took place WITHOUT my presence,
    and was NOT a tense converstation or a "fight" between mother and daughter;
    nor was it mother trying to convince the daughter to "see her side" (my 
    wife and I have done a pretty good job of keeping the kids out of the 
    middle, and we have both avoided badmouthing each other in front of the 
    kids).
    
    Both mother and daughter lean on each other for help and advice, and I
    personally think that is great rather than pitiful -- my daughter is
    certainly old enough to understand the situation (she is two months shy
    of 14), and this tells me that there is still great communication
    between the two. My wife conveyed their conversation to me after the
    fact and over the phone.
    
    I think we both look at our break-up as a good chance to teach my
    daughter about relationships, and about handling tough decisions in
    life (my son is too young for any converstations other than the
    quick "Mom and Dad love you kids and always will, but Mom and Dad don't
    get along and need to live separately" kind of conversation.)
    
    My relationship with my wife at this point is like a hemorrhoid --
    usually OK, but with an occasional flare-up:-) For the most part we've
    both focused on what is best for the kids -- and as I'm sure most
    noters in this conference know this takes TONS of patience and work,
    and it requires both of us to purposely and constantly focus on the
    kids and the big picture rather than little details -- this certainly is 
    not an easy task.
    
    I'm not going to categorize my daughter's discussion with my wife as
    pitiful, because it was apparently a good conversation. Maybe there are
    details that I am not providing that would help flesh out this picture;
    or maybe its that you don't really know the characters involved; or maybe 
    you are unintentionally superimposing your own situation on this set of 
    characters. I guess you'll just have to trust my judgement on this..... 
    
    - Mike  

    This '50 mile rule' worked for us in the sense that we thought longer
    and harder about relocating for my daughter's well-being.  "Would she
    really be better off without my constant presence on order to improve
    my financial standing?"  This question was asked by both of us whenever
    approached about relocating.  Eventually, my ex did relocate to Canada
    but he had proven himself to be a wonderful father and any custodial
    mom would have to have rocks in her head to hold his feet to the fire
    and cut off his joint-custody.   Also, he only relocated with my
    assurance (not in writing, but he knew he could trust my word) that I
    would never keep her from him.   
    
    So hopefully a period of time will pass where you can BOTH prove your
    dedication to the stability of your children so that when and if the
    time comes, a rational decision can be made in the best interest of the
    children.
    
    Susan
    

    In re: .4 - I think you've got this quite wrong, Kristen.
    
    I think parents must take affirmative actions to assure that their
    children don't feel at fault for things that aren't their
    responsibility.  I also think they must strive to help children
    feel that they will always be safe and loved - that they won't be
    abandoned.  On this I'm sure we agree.
    
    But I also feel that one way to make them feel UNsafe is to withhold
    information, particularly with a teenager.  If you depart significantly
    from full disclosure, they will almost certainly know it, and will
    have no further reason to believe you.  They will almost surely be able
    to imagine contingencies more unpleasant than whatever you are
    withholding from them.
    
    This is not to say that parents have any right to use their children as
    therapists, as or advocates against the other spouse.  But it would be
    irresponsible to withhold from this girl, who is practically an adult,
    significant information that may shape her life.  This definitely
    includes issues disputed between the parents, toward which the child
    may well deserve some say (depending on the issue).
    
    The positive outcome in this case also suggests an interesting idea. 
    The world would doubtless be a better place if partners to divorce
    proceedings were not allowed to take any action or seek any outcome
    that they would be unwilling to explain to a 14 year old daughter.
    
    		- Bruce
    

    
    Re: .7
    
    I was reluctant to respond to .4, because essentially I share the same
    opinion.  If children are kept in the dark about things that affect
    them, then they have good reason to suspect that you have something to
    hide.  Information is never in itself bad, but more often it's the
    motive for sharing it that causes the problem.
    
    Steve