Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

Kathryn,

We had to deal with a very slight version of it a time or two.  David just
told Karon that she can't schedule anything on his weekends without asking
him - and if she does, she might end up having to drive to/from Dallas to
pick up or deliver the boys!  Of course you don't have such an incentive as
a 3-hr (or 6+ hours round trip) drive, and it is easier for Terry's ex to
schedule things in the same city, but....

I think the only way you can REALLY stop it is to mess up her plans a couple
of times so she HAS to schedule with you.  Go out an BUY tickets to a special
event (on your weekend) or plan a camping trip or weekend away or something.
Then when she calls you or tells you of plans, you can say "I wish you had
scheduled it with us.  We have already purchased tickets for something (she
doesn't have to know what) and Craig won't be there.  We'd be glad to swap
weekends with you when things like this come up and we don't already have
plans, though."   It might cost a bit and be a bit of trouble, but I suspect
it will be well worth the effort.

Good Luck!
Kristen

    You might turn the tables and do the same thing to her.
    fred();

    re.2  Kristin beat me to it.
    fred();

    when i visited my kids in texas a month ago...my ex (and the kids) had
    all sorts of plans.  and of course, the emotional tag was played to the
    fullest (s/he will be disappointed)...
    
    seems to be a frequently used tactic to generally screw up
    relationships.  i am sure part of is (a small part?) is the ex's desire
    to control, and that means *you* can't control.  after all, if she were
    to "let" you and your hubby plan exciting things for the kid, then YOU
    and your hubby would get the credit.  (credit and blame are very
    important items to people with such insecurities)  it's very important
    to her to not lose any of that hard-earned control over his life (and
    yours).  
    
    wouldn't it be a relief is we'd just all let go and allow parents to
    be parents and kids to be kids, and if you make a mistake you accept
    responsibility and if you do good then that's ok, too.  i don't want my
    kids to dislike my ex.  and i don't want her to make them
    dislike/distrust me... let time and events take care of those.
    
    ahhhhh, wistful dreams.
    
    tony

    
    
    Have a talk with the son.  Ask him to give you or his dad a call
    when his mom is planning on doing such a thing.  
    Give him a say in what it is that the "family" is going to be doing
    on the weekends you share with him.  Of course this will only
    work if he is old enough to give you a phone call.
    
    
    We go thru a similar situation at least once a month.  John's ex
    is always calling him up telling him that Erin has this party
    to go to or that function to be at.  This causes alot of problems
    and she knows it.  He usually just gives in and agrees to see
    his daughter on the day of the weekend that is not busy.  But
    it doesn't make much sense to drive 5 hours to see his daughter
    for about 8 hours and then drive back.  So often he ends up
    missing his weekend with her which is exactly what the ex
    wants.  
    
    I get outraged when she pulls these tricks (and at some of her
    creative excuses) with him because his daughter gets really
    mad at him if he does not spend time with her.  And the 
    person she should be getting mad at is her mother.  Luckily
    when she is older she will be able to see what her mom is
    doing and put a stop to it.  
    
    14 years to freedom,
    Michele

    I can see how this problem would be a lot more difficult when
    the NCP lives a great distance from the kid(s) as in some of
    the cases here (Kristen and Michele), but it can be a real hassle
    too, when you live only 30 minutes away from the ex...  I remember
    one weekend where "The War Department" (as my husband calls her)
    planned Craig's activities so that my husband had to drive back
    and forth to Craig's town 6 times!  That translates to 6 hours
    of driving and I know we could make better use of that time.  She
    stopped for about a month when my husband told her that if she does
    this in the future, *she'll* have to either switch weekends with
    us, or come pick up Craig, bring him to the event and then bring
    him back to our house.  The latter didn't sound like such a great
    idea to me, because then my husband would miss a lot of time with
    his son, and we *still* wouldn't be planning our own weekends.
    I think I'll take your advice, Kristen, and plan to go away for
    the weekend.  But then, how much to do want to bet that this will
    be the first time she won't interfere??!!!  The other thing that
    really gets me is that now when she calls up and says "Do you guys
    have any plans yet???" sixteen weeks in advance ;-) (*of course*
    we don't have any plans yet, you moron!) and we say "No, not yet"
    ("yet" is the key word) she'll go and plan something for him and
    then say, "Well, I called you and you told me you didn't have any
    plans."  Ohhh!!!  She makes me want to scream!!!
    
    - Kathryn
    

    Another suggestion is to keep a log of these "events" and how often
    they interrupt you visitation.  If you can show a pattern to these
    "events" you may be able to go into court and ask for additional 
    visitation time since so much of your time is being interrupted by
    here plans, or possibly ask for a contempt of court citation against
    her for deliberately interferring in your visitation time.
    
    Something else would be to make plans.  Then when she calls and asks
    "do you have plans" you can tell her "yes".  Your plans can always
    be changed later ;^).
    
    fred();

Good idea.  If she calls way in advance to ask if you have plans, you can
say "They are still in the works, but yes we have some."

Good Luck, Kathryn!

Kristen

       When I read .0  I thought you had been monitoring my divorce.

            I have an apartment on my son's school bus route and just a
       few houses down from his best friend.  Being this close allowed
       her to constantly plan my son's time during my visitation.  (I
       have him every Thursday and every other weekend.

            What helped solve the problem for me was that his mother
       dragged the divorce process out over 19 months with a guardian
       ad litem very much involved.

            I kept meticulous records of the numerous events in which
       his mother ignored me and scheduled events for him during
       my visitation.  I also called upon the guardian ad litem to
       resolve the major infractions (she pulled this on Thanksgiving,
       and New Years) so that she could see what it was like dealing
       with my ex.  I also kept fighting the notion that the issue
       should be decided based on who has the "more exciting" plans.  My
       weekend is my weekend.  It is not a contest of entertainment
       directors!

            The end result was two fold.  First, the guardian ad litem
       spent about 20 minutes at the final hearing asking my ex to
       explain to the court why she kept doing this after being asked
       repeatedly to stop.  Thus in the divorce decree it states
           "{my ex} will not schedule events during Richard's
            visitation without 14 days notice to Richard and
            his approval"
       The second thing that happened was my son went from 12 to 14
       years old during this process and saw it for what it was,
       manipulation.  He talks to me now before he agrees to anything
       that occurs during our time together.  (This includes my ex's SO
       giving my son Red Sox tickets.)

       My suggestions are (1) keep records just in case you wind up in
       court over this or anything else, and (2) if the children are old
       enough to understand, explain to them how you feel about this.


       Richard

    Thanks, everybody for all the good suggestions.  I'll speak with
    my husband tonight and tell him the general concensus:  Make plans!
    Even if we have no plans when she calls in advance, I think we should
    just say, "Nope.  Sorry.  We're going camping."  "Nope.  Sorry.  We're
    going away to the beach."  "Nope.  Sorry.  We're going to a family
    gathering."  Just ANYTHING to get her off our backs.  I'm at the
    point now that even if we have to lie about already having plans,
    I'll do it.  I just hope she doesn't start messing around with Craig's
    head (oh, like she hasn't already!) and start manipulating him again.
    It seems that when this woman has control taken away from her, she
    tries something else that's usually worse than what she was doing
    before.  In a way, I kind of like her (believe it or not) but she
    really is a very misguided human being (in my opinion).  At the
    beginning, things worked out fairly well and she didn't pull this
    stuff too often.  But now that I've had a baby, things are a little
    different.  Craig really loves his little sister and doing "family
    things" with us, and it almost seems like his mother is trying to
    sabotage any plans we might make by setting up things for him to
    do alone (e.g. soccer clinics, baseball clinics, etc.) during his
    visits with us.  He's only 9 years old so he may be a bit young to
    say "Hey, mom.  Stay OUT of it and leave us alone."  Oh well, maybe
    someday...
    
    Thanks again, all
    
    - Kathryn
    

    I had this problem and I discussed it with my therapist.  He was a man
    of insight and he told me that it took my cooperation to have this
    situation continue.  He stated that the responsibility for the children
    was granted to the custodial parent and that I Had the choice to
    participate.  He further stated tha until I stopped making the children
    my reason to be I would always be susceptible to the manipulation of my
    EX.  When I started talking straight with the children I found several
    things.  First I found that the kids had lives of there own and
    sometimes wanted to do something besides spend the week-end with old
    dad.  SSecond I found that the first and foremost problem is they did
    not like the every other week-end any more than I did.  We solved the
    problem by one refusing to play the game when my ex was trying to pull
    one of her  control ploys.  This backfired on her as every time she
    suggested a change I would agree and then tell her that I would not pic
    them up til my schedule was clear.  I would refuse to pick them up for
    several week-end and when she would suggest that I was neglectful I
    would remind her that she is the one who changed the schedule.  If she
    complained that she needed a break, I told her it was her job and that
    it was my choice to particpate.  When she complained that the children
    were being used as a weapon against her I told her that she could give
    up the job any time she wanted and I would gladly take her place. 
    After sever weeks we had an understanding that included the children.
    She no longer plays the control game and I try to communicat with the
    children to coordinate the schedules.  Surprisenly the children have a
    good grasp of what was going on and willing accepted an alterred
    schedule.  Now there are some months when I see the children every
    week-end and some months when i don't see them at all.  When we don't
    see each othe it is by mutual consent and we just talk on the phone.
    

    Lots of wisdom in .11!  Just to add my 0.02 worth -- why is it
    necessary to explain to the other "family" what my family plans are? 
    Isn't the simple answer, "No, we have plans," sufficient?  If I feel
    compelled to lay out what those plans are, I'm opening myself for a
    contest of one-upmanship over who can come up with the most exciting
    plan.  I think it's sufficient to say, "we have plans" and leave it at
    that, even if the plans are merely to spend a quiet day at home, with
    just the three (or four) of us present, getting to know each other.
    
    Karen

    
    
    Karen,
    
    I don't see why it is necessary to tell the ex what your plans are.
    She has no reason to know.  I can understand your position as I am
    in a similar one.   I know in my case it is usually the ncp who is
    the one who feels that the ex should have the proper information.
    I get really upset with him because as I see it she has no right
    to that information as it does not concern or include her.
    
    Stand firm and tell her every time that you have plans!!!
    
    Good luck,
    Michele

    
    This is most definitely a control issue.  What to do is simple, but
    doing it is another matter.  Your husband's ex has no interest in
    activities for their son.  She has an interest in disrupting and
    controlling your lives.  I would tell her point blank that I have no
    intention of carrying out her plans.  She made the plans so carrying
    them out are HER problem.  This would be a bit painful for a month or
    two but as soon as she catches on that she's going to be the one
    hassling with it, my bet is it'll stop real fast.
    
    Steve
    

    Karen,
    
    Oh, I couldn't agree with you more about it not being necessary
    for her to know what our plans are, but...  if we say that we
    have plans, she always asks, "Well, what are they?"  If my husband
    tells her that it's none of her business, she just flies off the
    handle and it starts a big disturbance.  We just tell her things
    mostly to shut her up.  We both realize that it's none of her
    business, but sometimes it's easier to play along with her little
    game.
    
    Kathryn
    

>    handle and it starts a big disturbance.  We just tell her things
>    mostly to shut her up.  We both realize that it's none of her
>    business, but sometimes it's easier to play along with her little
>    game.

   From what I've read so far, it sure doesn't seem easier!  It seems far
   worse and it's creating havoc for the kids as well.  What kind of message
   are you giving the kids when you handle it this way?

   It's none of her business.  If she creates a big disturbance, hang up. 
   She knows that you'll give in and play her game if she creates a big
   disturbance.  Don't play.


   							Terza

    Terza's exactly right!
    
    tony

    Re: .15 et al
    
    Yes, Terza is right.  The "big disturbance" is part of her agenda
    for controlling you and your husband.  Why should you and your hubby
    tiptoe around to please her?  Don't play her game.  She is making all
    the rules and will continue to do this as long as it gets the result
    she is looking for.  I would hang up on her just like I do my ex.  It
    has taken some time but as time goes on the need to do so becomes less
    and less frequent.  She is slowly but surely getting the message that
    my life is no longer any of her business.
    
    Steve
    

    I fully understand what all of you are saying, and I agree, but
    you have to understand that before my husband and I got married,
    life with his ex was unbearable for him.  His divorce took over
    3 years to be finalized and his kid went through the wringer.
    He and his ex were constantly battling and nobody came out the
    winner.  We have reached a milestone now that he and Karen can
    actually speak together on the phone without one of them totally
    losing it and WWIII starting up.  We both know that it's none of
    her business, but if we tell her that or hang up on her, or whatever,
    all of us suffer because friction like this adversely affects Craig
    who's only 9 years old.
    
    Terry (my husband) has brought her up on contempt charges in the
    past, (MANY times, actually) and the only thing that seemed to
    have had any effect on her was once when she failed to show up
    in court and later, the sherrif showed up at her house and carted
    her off to jail for the night.  Seeing this happen was traumatic
    for Craig and all hell broke loose later on.  Before I married
    him, I insisted there be no more battling and right now, the only
    thing we've had to deal with is this constant need of hers to plan
    our weekends.  I think it's a small price to pay for peace.  Craig
    has really come alive in the past few years and even *she* has
    noticed this and told me that she feels it's because of me.  I sent
    her a letter a few weeks before the wedding to introduce myself to
    her and maybe break the ice a little bit.  It worked miracles.
    Sure, my life is none of her business, but what the heck?  It was
    no skin off my back to let her know what I was all about to satisfy
    her curiosity and guess what?  She actually likes me!  It's made
    events like baseball games and school plays a lot less stressful
    for us and Terry's entire family.  I know that I must sound like a
    doormat to all of you, but at least there's a certain amount of
    peace in my husband's and Craig's lives and to me, it's really
    worth it.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    My last reply sounds like I'm willing to put up with her planning
    our weekends...  I'm not and didn't intend to say that.  Instead,
    what I meant was that putting up with her having to know what
    we're doing is a small price to pay for peace.  I guess I'm not
    communicating well today.  My brain hurts.
    
    - K
    

    No one here (may I take the liberty of speaking for all?) thinks you're
    a doormat, Kathryn...in fact I admire your willingness to give a little
    to get a lot.  It just FROSTS me to see someone try to control things
    in other's lives this way.  I think that most of us are idealistic. 
    And idealisticly, it is wrong to give her even that little bit you do. 
    But, we all realize how imperfect this world is, and how unfair some
    folks are to us...and we accomodate in our own ways.  It's called
    survival.
    
    The bottom line is we all make choices.  And we live with them as best
    we can.  
    
    Take care...
    tony

    
    K -,
    
    I don't think any of us see you as a doormat, because most or all of us
    have been there and have had to make tough decisions.  IN MY VIEW,
    compromising just to keep the peace is sending a message to Craig that
    appeasing outrageous behavior is better than setting them straight and
    being done with it.  It might be still a bit more painful temporatily
    to stand your ground, but in the long run I believe you'll all, and
    that includes your husband's ex, will be better off for it if you draw
    clear boundaries around what is not her business and consistently tell
    her when she is invading them.  After all, it might seem more peaceful
    than before, but it has bothered you enough to write here about it.
    
    It's your shot to call, however, and you have to deal with the
    consequences of whatever you decide to do and determine what energy,
    patience, etc. that you have to do it with.  No reasonable and
    thoughtful person who's done it themselves and has learned from it
    would consider anyone else a doormat for not doing it their way.
    From your last note it sounds as if your husband's ex is a emotionally
    unhealthy person, and I know from experience what dealing with that is
    like.
    
    Best luck,
    Steve
    

    re: -1
    
    Gee, Steve - maybe you and my husband are brothers!  :-)
    
    Both you and Tony (and everybody else) are correct.  Something
    has got to change, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to pay the
    price for it - my husband either, for that matter.  It's unfortunate,
    but that's life.  I'm just waiting for the day when Craig turns
    18 so we just don't have to deal with her AT ALL ANYMORE!  Until
    then, though, it's going to be 9  L O N G  years.  And who knows,
    maybe even before then, Craig will stand up to her.  He's going to
    realize someday soon that his mother is a very manipulative individual.
    I feel sorry for him...  it hurts to realize that your parents are
    human and they have faults.
    
    - K

    Oh, one other thing.  I don't think what we do sends Craig the
    message that we're appeasing her outrageous behavior, because
    I don't think he even knows about most of our dealings with her.
    He only suffers from the fall-out when she's been set off (like
    if my husband hung up on her, or something).  He has no idea why
    things are so bad... he just sees the after-effects.
    
    - K
    

    I know I have already put in my two cents,but I must reiterate that it
    is vital that you deal with the child from a honest open position.
    I also would like to add that it take two to tango, or if you listen to
    the piper you must dance to the music.  I would find it within me to
    let her plan her life and recommend that she be advised only when it
    concerns her.  Otherwise she will constantly   use you information
    against you and confuse Craig even more.  You must summon the courage
    of your conviction and refuse to be manipulated even if it means not
    seeing the child at times.  When these time arise just explain to Craig
    that you will not see him this week and these are the reasons.  And
    then stick to your guns.

    
    
    Don't underestimate what Craig knows about or sees.  Kids are 
    not stupid.  They are as smart as we are, with less experience.
    From my days teaching high school, I learned that most adults
    have an unrealistic idea of what their kids know about or what
    they understand.
    
    Also just as an aside, there are NO secrets.  If kids are the least
    bit confused about what is going on at home, they WILL talk about it
    outside the home with persons they think might be able to help them
    figure it out whether or not they realize that that is what they are
    doing, and they will usually be candid about it.  I lost count of the
    times I talked with parents at open house or whatever who had no
    idea what their kids had told me.  They'd have been mortified if they
    knew how much I knew (tee hee).
    
    Steve
    

    O.K.  Here's the scenario:
    
    Craig is at his mom's house, but is playing outside.  Karen decides
    to call Terry and Kathryn to see if they have anything going on
    in a week and a half because she wants Craig to go to a baseball
    clinic.  She phones their house and Terry answers on the second
    ring...
    
    T:  "Hello?"
    
    K:  "Terry?  It's Karen.  Listen, I was wondering if you and Kathryn
         have anything planned for the weekend of the 16th because I'd like
         you to bring him to a baseball clinic on that Saturday at 1:00."
    
    T:  "Well, sorry, but we do already have plans."
    
    K:  "Oh?  What do you have going?"
    
    T:  "It's none of your business, Karen."
    
    K:  "*&%$%^ &&**($#@  &^%$$^^&  &^%$###$%"
    
    (Meanwhile, Terry hangs up and Karen is absolutely LIVID!)
    
    Enter, stage left, Craig (who has been outside while this was going
    on).  He sees his mother in a tirade and goes inside his shell.  He's
    probably thinking he has done something wrong.  He won't see his dad
    for a while, but his dad doesn't know this is happening 35 miles
    away anyway.  Also, Craig is not the type to speak up about things
    like this.  He can only suspect that his mom is angry at his dad
    and it has something to do with *him*.
    
    Now...  It could be easily handled another way if instead of saying
    "It's none of your business" he said:
    
    T:  "Why yes, Karen.  We do have plans."
    
    K:  "Oh really?  What?"
    
    T:  "We're going to the beach."
    
    K:  "Oh.  Okay.  But if you decide to cancel, let me know."
    
    T:  "Okay, Karen.  Bye."
    
    K:  "Bye."
    
    We prefer the latter.  Now do you see what I mean?  This is really
    the only way we can keep the peace.
    
    - Kathryn
    

    re -1
    
    >T:  "It's none of your business, Karen."
    >
    >K:  "*&%$%^ &&**($#@  &^%$$^^&  &^%$###$%"
    
    I can relate to that.  :^) or is it :^(.
    fred();

   Wow, I can really empathize with your concerns for Craig.  My dealings
   with my ex are very similar (maybe they're related?) and I've had to
   compromise on things I don't feel should be compromised for the sake of
   peace for my children.  I hate it because I feel like I'm compromising my
   principles and I wonder what kind of message I'm giving to my children.

   What you've described sounds like a workable compromise for yourselves. 
   I dislike it because it's dishonest and I like to deal with people on an
   adult level.  But, as I've learned very painfully, it's just not possible
   with some people, no matter how much I'd like for it to be different.

   Your plans or the lack of them are still none of her business, but
   butting heads with her is not the solution here.

   I suppose an alternative could be for you to make monthly plans and
   "publish" them by sending her a letter.  That's way and above the call of
   duty in my opinion, but it might head her off and decrease the phone
   calls from her about your life.

   Every summer my ex travels to New York to teach an institute there.  He's
   been doing this for five years.  Every year, he plays this game with the
   director of the institute and they squabble until the last possible
   moment, when they finally agree on a contract and my ex flies out.  And
   every year he tells me that he doesn't know whether he's going or not. 
   Every year until this year, I've held off making my summer plans to hear
   from him.  This year I said to him that I'm taking three weeks off in
   July and that's when I want the kids to come to my house whether he goes
   out of town or not.  (We have a standing agreement that we'll take the
   kids when the other needs to go out of town on a business trip.)  This
   stance significantly reduced my stress!  Frankly, I don't want it to be
   any of my business whether he reaches an agreement with the director or
   not! 


   							Terza

    I've been thinking about the relationship issues raised by this string
    and have come to two conclusions -- for me.  I share them here, just in
    case any of you find any wisdom in them.
    
    1.  Very few people we meet in life will willingly hand us our rights. 
        If our rights are meaningful to us, we'll have to work for them
        (sometimes fight for them).
    
    2.  Pick your battles carefully.  There'll always be more battles than
        there are strength and resources for fighting.  Pick the ones that 
        are important to you -- not to someone else -- and that you stand 
        a chance to win.  Then fight to win.
    
    For what it's worth.
    Karen
    

    re: .27
    
    the second (peaceful) telephone scenario.  I can see how that
    conversation is less confrontational...that's probably why you prefer
    it.  But, I'd like to extend the same scenario a little:
    
    T:  "Why yes, Karen.  We do have plans."
    
    K:  "Oh really?  What?"
    
    T:  "We're going to the beach."
    
    K:  "Oh.  Okay.  But if you decide to cancel, let me know."
    
    T:  "Okay, Karen.  Bye."
    
    K:  "Bye."
    
    
    Enter, stage left, Craig (who has been outside while this was going
    on). 
    
    C:	Hi, Mom!  Who ya talkin to?
    
    K:	Your dad.
    
    C:	Yeah?  What about?  
    
    K:	He wants to take you to the beach on your next visit.  Sounds like
    fun!
    
    C:	Wow...that's great!  Maybe we'll see some really big fish!
    
    K:	Perhaps, Craig.  Don't forget though, the last time he told us what the
    plans were, they got changed, and you remember how disappointed you
    were.  You have to try not to trust what your father says too much. 
    Sometimes I think they "have plans" just to keep me from planning
    something really enjoyable for you.  I wonder....  
    
    	K: turns away, having placed just enough doubt in Craig's mind
    about his dad's plans...and whether he'd prefer his mom's to dad's
    anyway.  After all, when mom was doing all the planning...he didn't
    feel disappointed.
    
    
    the point is, if you tell Karen your plans...be assured that Craig will
    be told, and certain expectations will set in.
    
    
    tony

    re:-1
    
    We feel that whenever Craig has been told about certain plans,
    we should follow through and usually do except when the weather
    may ruin our plans.  Also, we give Craig the right to veto any
    plans that we've made (within reason, of course) if the opportunity
    to do something more interesting comes up.  This kid has a mind of
    his own and I feel that people shouldn't always be making plans
    for him anyway.  He's not even interested in half of the activities
    that his mother plans for him.  He has a much better time (and learns
    more) playing baseball with his dad and our neighbor's boy than he
    does at a 1 hour baseball clinic 35 miles away that's perfectly
    timed to blow the whole day.  The plans that we make "on the spot"
    (and don't forget, we haven't even really put this "plan" into action
    yet) are just guidelines for Craig.  They're designed to let Karen
    know that the plans she's made for him will have to be changed.  I'm
    confident that if we do this a few times, she'll get the message
    and stop.  She hasn't tried to manage out weekend coming up...  the
    only thing that she's done was to send a note with Craig last night
    (Terry takes him out on Wed. nights) informing us to drop him off at
    her parents house on Sunday night at 9:00 instead of 7:00 because
    she and her parents are going to a wedding.  Maybe part of the reason
    why she wants to know what we're doing is because she thinks nothing
    of telling us what she's doing.  Not that we care, or anything...
    
    - Kathryn
    

Kathryn,

This is a tough one.  I definitely admire you for keeping the priorities the
way they *should* be (children first) - I often get too emotional about who
is one up on who, and put that above the children.  Kudos to you.

Terza mentioned something very important:

 >    I hate it because I feel like I'm compromising my
 >  principles and I wonder what kind of message I'm giving to my children.

We decided very early in our relationship that no matter what we thought of
Karon, we would NEVER bad mouth her to the boys, criticize her to the boys,
question her lifestyle or give them the 20 questions about what they do with
her, etc.... - NO MATTER WHAT SHE DID.  In the end the kids would figure out
who was vindictive and spiteful, and she would end up the loser.  Also, they
would probably regret all of those times they REFUSED to go with their dad
"because Kristen would be there" (mom convinced them) and they would be mad
as heck because they can never have that time back again.

HOWEVER.... there were several times that Karon would bad-mouth me in front
of the boys (while I was not there, but to David).  She once found a volleyball
with my initials on it, while he was dropping off the boys - she ran in the
house and got a permanent marker and scratched out my initials and wrote SLUT
in big letters (David was too ashamed to tell me or show me the ball - I found
out when Jeremy, then 6, apologized for what his mother did.  It was so sad.).
Other times she called me awful 4-letter words to David, in front of the boys.
Or she saw something of mine in the car and threw it out the door and stomped
on it, etc....  All of these times David did nothing - "to keep the peace" and
show the boys he is not that low.

IMO, he was conveying the wrong message to the boys.  YOU PROTECT THE ONES
YOU CARE ABOUT, AND SOME THINGS ARE SIMPLY UNACCEPTABLE AND WILL NOT BE
TOLERATED.  David should have reacted to such downright ugly things, and I
feel it would have not violated our previous "rule" because we did not
instigate anything.  Further, by David not defending me when she said these
things, I have to wonder if the boys might have thought it was true.  During 
all of this time, Jeremy was getting picked on on the schoolbus - kids would
even throw his books out the window.  The bus driver, teachers, and principal
could not figure out why in the world this boy just let these things happen 
and did not fight back.  Neither could David!  I know...... is it not obvious?

So do not compromise your principles, but do what you think is best for your
entire family.

Kristen

    
    I am getting the feeling this is taking on the tone of a
    one-upsmanship exchange and hope that is not so, but a final
    viewpoint.  I agree, at least, with the point of the last reply,
    but not necessarily the situation that illustrates it.
    
    I have learned the hard way and had pointed out to me in support
    groups and in counseling and by my own observation that often our
    well-meaning actions on behalf of our children hurt them.  Very
    often what looks like the worst thing to do only LOOKS that way
    because of the temporary pain and hassle that will come with it.
    We don't do our children any favors when we try to protect them from
    pain.  Pain is one of life's teachers and is unavoidable.  We can't
    protect our children from it.  If we continue to "protect" them from
    unpleasantness, we cheat them of the experience and the learning that
    comes with it.  When they grow up and are on their own they go
    through an awful time when they encounter their first painful
    experience on their own, and we are not there to help them through it.
    They don't know what to do and often get themselves into big jams
    over it.  This happens because when they were young and we "protected"
    them, we robbed them of the opportunity to experience tough times
    in their lives and learn that it passes and that they can manage their
    way through it successfully.  When they get older and have children of
    their own, they end up being parents just like us, protecting their
    children who grow up to ..... and it goes on from one generation to
    another.  This does not mean that we shouldn't be involved and
    make decisions, but we should never take away the experiences they
    need to learn and grow from.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

Steve,

You didn't state, but I believe your reply may have been in response to my
reply.  If so, then I mis-represented David's intentions.

David is not trying to protect the boys from pain - he is trying to show them
that he can be a bigger person by ignore such childish or petty actions.  I
really don't believe it has anything to do with pain.

But by ignoring things that hurt those you care about, or violate your
principles, I believe he is giving the boys a different message.  There are
times when I believe you CAN AND SHOULD stand up for yourself and those you
love - and times when you should ignore things.

Hope this clarifies..
Kristen

    The replies here have been very thought-provoking and have showed
    me that the problem I first brought up (CP planning NCP's weekends)
    runs a lot deeper than I originally thought.  There really is no
    immediate solution and I think that (as a lot of you have pointed
    out) we're going to have to experience a little bit of a bumpy
    ride in order to get to the place we want to be at.  You're right...
    Sometimes we do perform a disservice to our children by trying to
    shield them from pain all the time.  What happens when we're not
    there?  The child (a grown-up by now) just isn't equipped to deal
    with all the s*it life dishes out.  Karen Godin brought up an excellent
    point when she said that nobody hands you your rights - you've got to
    fight for them.  I certainly don't want to convey the message to
    Craig (or our daughter, for that matter) that it's O.K. to put up
    with unacceptable behavior because you *will* turn yourself into
    a doormat.  Craig already is to a degree, but I won't bore you all
    with that.  Suffice it to say that his mother tries to control
    *everybody* - not just my husband and I.
    
    What I plan to do this weekend is to sit down with Craig and my
    husband and *all three of us* decide what we might like to do
    in two weeks for Craig's next visit.  Maybe now if his mother
    tries to make other plans for him, he'll be able to say that he
    has other plans with his dad.  There'll be no need for a phone
    call (I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt here) and Craig
    will benefit by having a say in the matter.  I think we've all
    been making a mistake by thinking his life needs to be so structured.
    Maybe he'll just say, "Look you guys.  What I really want to do
    next weekend is to just hang out and relax and play with my little
    sister.  All of this 'stuff' is just getting to be too much."
    And if his mother calls and says she's signed him up for something,
    we'll just have to say "NO" and run the risk of a confrontation.
    Maybe if my husband is calm and ready to deal with her, she won't
    explode.  Thanks, really, all of you, for the great discussion we've
    had.  I know I've learned a great deal and you've all been very
    supportive.  I'll let you know how things work out.
    
    - Kathryn
    
    P.S.  Kristen:  David's ex sounds so utterly evil that I don't
                    know how you can possibly deal with it.  There's
                    absolutely no excuse for the horrible things that
                    she has done to you.  Not to use a cliche or
                    anything, but just keep in mind that what goes
                    around, comes around and try to take a little comfort
                    in that.

    
    Re: .35
    
    Kristen,  My note wasn't just a reponse.  It was more of a summing
    for me of some of the stuff this entire note has stirred up for
    me.
    
    Re: .36 and Planning ahead with Craig.
    
    Brilliant!  It's so simple, but has all the stuff it needs to work.
    If you do that on a regular basis, it should make it clear that 
    those weekends are your family's time together and that it would
    be inappropriate for his mom to intrude in any way.  I wouldn't
    have thought of it myself.
    
    Steve
    

    Just an update...
    
    The approach of planning things ahead with Craig has seemed to work
    great, although now his mom has to re-direct her "control" elsewhere
    and we're taking the brunt of it.  A while back (when we first started
    to institute this program) she started sending Craig with notes on
    Friday saying things like "Bring him home at 9:30 on Sunday night
    instead of 7:00 because I have a family wedding to attend."  This
    didn't go over too well because my husband had some improtant plans
    for Sunday at 7:30 and this fouled things up.  Well, Karen had a real
    "display" over this at Craig's baseball game and embarrassed him (and
    herself, I might add) because my husband said "Absolutely NO.  I will
    be Craig home at the agreed upon time as noted in the custody
    agreement."  Well, with that over with and then the next issue where
    she was screwing around with visitation, we thought we had her
    convinced that we were going to make her stick to the agreement.  She
    lost the battle each time.  Yesterday after playing back the messages
    on the machine I discovered that she will just not quit.  She's
    determined to battle with us for the next 9 years.  Here's how it went:
    
    Beep...
    Hi, this is Karen.  I'm calling to tell you that Craig is going on
    vacation Wednesday, August 25th and will be returning late in the
    evening on Wednesday, September 5th.  He will not be available for
    visitation on both Wednesdays and the weekend.  Thanks.
    Beep...
    
    Tell me, wouldn't any *normal* person schedule a vacation with their
    child during a time that wouldn't interfere with visits to the child's
    father?  My sister is a CP and wouldn't think of taking away 1/2 of
    the time during the month that her daughter spends with her father.
    This woman is psychotic.  I'm convinced she's just looking for a fight.
    Well, this time my husband is tired of fighting with her and I'm just
    sitting here watching it all going on around me.  I wish there was
    something I could do right now because I know it will only get worse.
    She's going to keep taking away his visitation little by little until
    Craig's relationship with his father is non-existent.  What can I do
    to help my husband out?
    
    - Kathryn
    

    Support him, give him an ear to chew off, and pray alot for the
    child(ren).  What does Craig think of this latest fiasco?
    
    Al

    - Kathryn, maybe the time has come for both of Craig's parents to work
    together in his interests rather than in their own or by the letter of
    the custody arrangement.  Visitation arrangements set forth in the
    custody agreement are guidelines, not the letter of the law.  Granted,
    when one party or the other violates those guidelines frequently and on 
    more than an exception basis, they have overstepped the bounds, and I 
    have no complaint with resorting to court actions to get things back to 
    an even keel.  
    
    Having said that, IMO, planning to take a child on vacation for
    a week and a half is not the least bit unusual or unacceptable.  In fact, 
    if you're going to do much of anything beyond day trips to local 
    attractions, a week or more is almost a necessity.  Obviously, this
    might require some adjustments (mutually acceptable, it would be hoped) 
    to the normal visitation schedule.  This is presuming that this is a
    once or twice a year occasion and not a monthly occurrence.
    
    In Craig's interests, I'd hope your husband and his ex can work out
    some sort of exception to the normal schedule for special occasions.  
    If Craig will miss out on two of his normal visits to his father because 
    he's going on a vacation with his mother, then two substitute visits at 
    an earlier or later date would be reasonable.  She's certainly giving 
    advance notice (which many custodial parents don't!), so there's time to 
    work something out.  If I were in your husband's place (and I have been),
    I'd use this "request" on her part (let's give her the benefit of the
    doubt) to negotiate an extended visit over the Thanksgiving or
    Christmas holidays, for example.
      
    I know that over the 8 years I've been a non-custodial parent, I
    have requested my share of "exceptions," just as the children's father
    has.  Sometimes we grant them; sometimes we don't, depending on
    with situations.  But it is to be hoped that the situations have more 
    to do with real, human needs than with a desire to "get even" with the
    other over past problems.
     
    After all, a little give and take is what life is all about.  It's when 
    the taking outweighs the giving that problems arise.
    
    Good luck to all of you.
    Karen
    

    If you don't do anythng else keep a journal of all of the times
    that the cp violates the court orders.  If you have a lawyer, have
    him check into the possibility of making *her* pay for your legal
    expenses for obtaining an contemp-of-court.  Most states, I believe,
    have this provision for contempt of cour.
    
    They child support "guidelines" are indeed letter of the law.  Most
    judges won't do much for one infraction, but if you keep a log of
    all the times she messes with you, and Craig's, visitation rights
    then you may be abele to get something done *and* make her pay for
    it.
    
    I may sound like I'm comming on kind of strong about this, but I
    find using the children as a *tool* for hate for the NCP not a
    very funny situation at all.  Again, it's a violation of the 
    CHILD'S rights as well as your own.
    
    fred();

    Thanks, folks.  I'm definately going to support my husband on this
    and be there for him.  I think you're right, Karen, about her the
    benefit of the doubt although it's difficult because of the way she
    has been acting the past few months.  Last summer, she planned her
    vacation *around* Terry's visitation so that Craig only missed one
    Wednesday night.  This year, it looks almost like she planned her
    vacation to take optimum advantage of Terry's visitation with Craig.
    She's only going away for one week and managed to do it from a
    Wednesday to a Wednesday with Terry's weekend in between.  I think
    that to be fair she should've taken the vacation the week before.
    She planned this one right down to the wire.  She said she'd be home
    "late" on Wednesday the 5th of Sept. and I think Craig starts school
    the very next day.  Oh well, maybe this is her new trend.  I'm just
    very frustrated over the whole matter, and yes, you can bet your *ss
    that we'll document this one.
    
    Thanks again for your support, everyone
    
    - Kathryn
    

    
    
    Kathryn,
    
    Save the tape!!  It is one piece of evidence that you can use
    if you need to.  We had to do this twice for John.  
    
    Hang in there.  I know sometimes it looks like it is never going
    to get better, and maybe it won't.  It really is too bad that
    Craig's mother is causing scenes in front of him in front of his
    peers.  It will come back to haunt her some day.
    
    Just be there for your husband and Craig.  They both need you
    and your support!!
    
    Take care,
    Michele

    Michele,
    
    Good idea about saving the tape.  I never even thought of that!
    And I'm working from home today, so no messages have come in and
    taped over it.  I think I'll go retrieve it right now.  Thanks.
    
    - K

    
    I agree with documenting everything.  Back up your case with
    documented facts and then let the judge hang her with her own
    rope.
    
    Steve