Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    I have wondered about this for a long time.  Generally, my own answer
    is that my ex's bitterness is just her style.
    
    She was a bitter, vindictive person when we were married.  Why should
    she change now?  She has a few friends, but they have always seemed to
    come and go in her life...never seem to stay around for too long.  She
    is pretty much a recluse, never getting out much, except on Sunday, to
    church.  She is/was "pseudo" religious.  By that, I mean, she goes to
    church fervently (never misses) and makes the whole family go, too. 
    That's not necessarily bad... but, while she puts on the appearance of
    being a religious person (her papa was a So. Baptist minister for 46
    years before he died), she denounces many of the things/beliefs of the
    church.  
    
    She is actively involved in child welfare...we were a foster family for
    23 years before I left and she is earning her keep now doing the same
    thing...she is excellent at being a mother to very young children.  
    
    No one can possible accuse her of not being a "good" mom...too much
    public recognition for her achievements (we were once even guests on
    the Phil Donahue show, along with a severly retarded foster child)... 
    
    But, she is the supreme MANIPULATOR of people.  She *uses* them.  to
    her own advantage, and for her own cause.  If I dared to object or
    reject her idea/notion of what we should do, or even dared to do
    anything I thought was fun/different, all he!! broke loose.  She
    positively was in charge.  Of my life, and of the kids.  
    
    I finally got tired of living a life for someone else's benefit, sho I
    bolted
    
    I suspect that her greatest anger now is that she lost her control over
    me.  
    
    I'll stop here...but the story is yet not fully told.
    
    tony

    > I suspect her greatest anger now is that she lost control over me.
    
    Right there is where I find the bitterness in my ex.  Control.  We were
    the products of '40s and '50s homes; my place was to serve him and any
    children we had; never to expect any life or fulfillment of my own.
    
    Then the rules changed in the late '60s and early '70s.  I discovered
    that my needs were as valid as his and the kids.  Oops, his control
    over me began to slip.  I started asking for, then demanding, some
    acknowledgement of my contribution and my needs.  Oops, further erosion
    of his hold over me.  Then I *gasp* went to work outside the home!  I
    was actually TALKING to and WORKING with and being RECOGNIZED by people
    other than him.  Now he's really scared.  In his fear of losing control
    over me, he tightened his grip harder and harder.  But like toothpaste
    in a tube, as his grip tightened, I escaped.  The irony is that, had he
    been willing to loosen his grip and allow me the little bit of
    self-hood I sought, he'd have kept me.  (Hard as it is to remember at
    times, I did love him, once upon a time.)
    
    Every one of the confrontations we have had since the divorce are
    obvious and calculated attempts on his part to regain his control over
    me.  When that hasn't worked, he's tried to get back at me by exerting
    additional control over the kids.  Now, predictably, they're slipping
    away from him, too.  
    
    In the end he's going to be left with two tightly clenched fists that 
    contain nothing.
    
    Karen

    I think the single most wonderful thing about my "new" wife (we've been
    married just over 7 months!) is that she has NO desire to make me into
    something I am not.  She truly loves me for what/who I am and accepts
    the same from me.  It is such a contrast from the relationship I had
    with my ex...where I was constantly on the "alert" for doing something
    to "offend" or otherwise...well, you know.  
    
    For years and years I avoided coming home after work.  I never went
    anyplace (didn't drink or carouse around)...I just stayed in the office
    as long as I could, and left home as early as I could...trying to avoid
    her.  
    
    But, she still manages to cause pain and anger and anguish (God! I wish
    I could get that out of my life!) by using the kids as tools.
    
    tony

    
I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that whether the woman
has left, been left, or it's a mutual split, the woman soon finds
out that "freedom" is not what it's cracked up to be.  In our society
it is still the man who is "supposed" to "make sure" the family is
protected and provided for.  Then the woman has all that "freedom"
dumped on her at often a very reduced income. ( Do any of us *ever*
have *enough* money? )  Couple that with the fact that there is still
a strong attitude in our society that the woman "deserves" to be
taken care of, either on her own merits or via the children (if you
don't believe me just ask any judge).   Give her a couple of kids to 
use as leverage, and salt liberally with "power corrupts".  The
"bad situation" that a divorced woman and single mother finds herself
in is often very real.  Add to that the *perception* that "he's out
there having a good ol' time".

My ex is a professional victim, and very good at it.  Her livelihood
since our divorce has mainly been made by getting some organization
or another to "rescue" her.  The problem with being a victim is that 
you need something to be victim of.  I make a very convenient target.  
Also being a victim makes it unnecessary to take responsibility for 
your own actions--I wouldn't have *had* to do that *if*...--things
would be a lot better "if only"....

One very hard fact that I had to learn with my divorce was that I
was not dealing with a sane and rational person.  Once I figured
that out I stopped driving myself nuts by trying to make "since"
out of it all.

Again this is written from my point of view as a male and is not
intended in any way to discredit those who really *are* in a bad
situation.

fred();
    

    Fred, (.4), your sharing of the position you believe your ex-wife to be
    in is probably more or less accurate for your situation.  But I would
    doubt that women (as a group), any more than men (as a group), are 
    shaken to discover that "freedom is not what it's cracked up to be."  
    I know I've heard plenty of men looking forward to being free again and 
    getting to play the field, only to discover that there were some benefits 
    to being "attached" to someone, if only that you didn't have to worry 
    about what people would think if they found you home alone on a Saturday 
    night - 8-}.
    
    Bitterness in divorce is a two-way thing.  Men are bitter.  Women are
    bitter.  Probably in direct proportion to their representation in the
    divorce statistics -- 50:50.
    
    Karen      

    re -1
    
    I think a lot of men are bitter after divorece because they find
    that there is *&^% little "freedom" after divorce.  Especially
    if there are children involved.  For many non_custodial parents,
    divorce is only the beginning of years of hip-deep bs.
    
    It's no wonder so many men just give up and s*&tcan then whole
    thing.  However, it's that kind of man that helps make it so
    hard on those of us who do care enough to keep trying.
    
    fred();

    
    
    One other point that can be cause for "bitterness".  I've encountered
    a common misconception.  Seems many people figure the non-custodial
    parent no longer has a care in the world, with the exception of paying
    support.
    
    I had someone tell me, "gee... must be nice.  You probably party all
    weekend long."  Well, I suppose I have the time... but who's got the
    money?
    
    Ya know... I've never seen my child get on a school bus.  Sounds kinda
    trivial... but it's things like this that can cause bitterness....
    

  This is very true.  In today's society, I feel everyone looks at the
  negative side of things.  In a non-custodial parents life, we have 
  been stereotyped as non-caring, non-supportive type of individuals based
  on past history of deadbeat fathers and mothers who don't attempt to
  care or provide child support.

  Society is going after these deadbeats and I'm glad to see that.  However,
  has society said, "Well, your definitely a caring non-custodial parent
  and you should be rewarded".  I don't want to be rewarded because my
  reward will be in my heart and in my childrens heart and mind.  I just
  want equality.

  Society is full of caring individuals who can not afford child support
  or are trying everything in their power to ensure that the child is 
  cared for.  These cases should be dealt with on a one-on-one basis
  and what the parent can do within their limitations.  People like
  this have earned my respect because they are at least trying.

  I thought I would be one of them after the first couple years after my 
  divorce because I was getting screwed big time.  Sure I could have run 
  off to paradise and enjoyed myself but I knew I had responsibilites because 
  I "assisted" in bringing them into this world.  

  My ex sometimes b!tches saying, "You don't know what's like raising
  two girls" and my *kind* reply is "No, but I sure would like to find
  out"

  It's definitely not a party and the first person that said that to
  me sure would get an earful.

     
  "My ex sometimes b!tches saying, "You don't know what's like raising
  two girls" and my *kind* reply is "No, but I sure would like to find
  out""
    
    I've used this line also, and may I say, it is very effective!!  Any
    time I get the old song and dance about how tough it is for her, I
    just laugh, and tell her I'd be "more than happy to help her out"...
    
    and she knows what that means!!
    

    You can count me in on that one.  I've never had the kids for an
    hour let alone a weekend, I'ld love to hear them screaming around
    the house etc etc. I could take them to McDonalds or other similiar
    establishment, by clothes for little Vicki, play soccer with Chris.
    Still, it's only 8 years and 7 months until Chris is 18 and two
    years later it'll be Vicki's 18th. 
    
    If you're seeing your children this weekend, have a good time.
    
    Dave.

    Well, it's now been one week since my visit to my kids in Texas.  When
    I got to their house, my ex-wife met me at the door and you could cut
    the ice with an axe.  Of course, it didn't help that my last telephone
    call wound up in a knock-down, drag-out fight with her.
    
    My son's new girlfriend was there, too, and he later told me that the
    decision for her NOT to stay at the house while visiting him was based
    on the fact that he/she (and the ex) EXPECTED the atmosphere to be
    thick with bitterness.  Well, I guess if you expect something like
    that, it's bound to happen.
    
    I immediately dragged Peggy (the ex) into the kitchen and asked for a
    truce...which, fortunately, "sort of" happened.  
    
    But, I confess, I felt extremely ill-at-ease everytime I had to see
    her.  
    
    I must say though, that she stayed out of the way most of the time. 
    Her threat to enforce the "restriction" imposed on the kids
    (perenially, it seems) was lifted while I was visiting...for that was
    the cause of the heated arguement over the telephone.
    
    She (we) are still very angry.  At times (mostly when it seems
    expedient for her) we are "civil" with each other, but usually, any
    extended contact results in hostility.
    
    I really envy those of you (few as you are) who can maintain some sort
    of civility with your ex... that's so much less strenuous and
    nerve-wracking!
    
    tony

    Re .11
    
    My ex isn't very bitter, but it is there... I just never see her
    and I talk to her rarely (2 minutes on the phone the week before
    I come over; it's a 6 hour drive).  Maybe it's the distance that
    helps keep things relatively calm.  The other thing is that I have
    an excellent counselor who helped me see what a bad interaction
    we have always had.  
    
    Once I faced how badly/rudely/inconsiderate/bitter-people-expletives I
    talked to her, I started to see a pattern. That was a painful
    realization for me; that I could be the blame; but that's just it, I
    can't be blamed entirely.  She owned half the problem because it takes
    2 to argue and be nasty.  For the most part, I now control our
    conversations and she has learned she can't push my buttons anymore
    (ie. things that get me upset). They are well guarded. Since she
    doesn't get satisfaction out of hurting me verbally, she has stopped
    (well, almost, but it's such a drastic difference, it feels like she
    has stopped entirely). Like I said, there are some moments of outbursts,
    but they are now (finally) far and few between. 
    
    Is there a cure for bitter ex's?  I don't know but if I can recommend
    two things, they are:
    
    1) Make an honest appraisal of the things you have done/do wrong with
    your ex.  Don't, I repeat, *DO NOT* do this without a seasoned counselor.
    You simply can't be objective enough to see what kind of interaction
    really goes on and you may inadvertently lay a guilt trip on yourself.
    
    2) Learn to respect yourself.  Don't let an ex push your hot buttons
    causing an argument.  They always seem to know what they are.  They
    aren't worth giving them the satisfaction.
    
    While problems still persist, I don't have to feel guilty about my
    actions now.  They are much more mature and positive then while married
    and I sleep better at night knowing that I've stopped directly or
    indirectly hurting her with my tongue. 
    
    The above won't work for everyone, but if it helps just a couple
    of people...
    
    
    			Thanks for letting me share,
    			   John

    re. .12 (John)
    
    Thanks!  It was brave of you to point out that we who are complaining
    bitterly about the bitterness in our ex's own a share of the
    responsibility for the total bitterness quotient.  I know it's true for
    me, and I recognize how I sometimes consciously push the buttons that 
    will bring a negative response from my ex.
    
    I've learned to prepare my shield against anticipated clashes with him,
    but still find myself unprepared for those out-of-the-blue encounters.
    
    You've given me something to think about.
    
    Karen   

    
    Re: .4  Were we married to the same woman ;^)?
    
    I disagree that we own a share of the responsibility for the
    "total bitterness quotient."  Definitely I own a share of what went
    wrong with the marriage, but NOT my ex's anger, resentment, or
    bitterness.  Those are HER feelings; That is HER stuff; and those are
    HER problems.  I have my own to be sure, and I do NOT attribute any of it
    to her.  If I am bitter and resentful then that is because that is what
    I choose and the same goes for her.  We often too quickly accept
    responsibility for stuff that is not ours to be responsibile for.
    Resentment and bitterness are nothing but evidence of unwillingness to
    let go of the past and move on.  They only hurt the person who
    entertains them.
    
    Steve
    

    Re .14
    
    I don't think "total bitterness quotient" was meant quite that way.
    The author of .13 will have to respond to that though.
    
    > We often too quickly accept
    > responsibility for stuff that is not ours to be responsibile for.
    That's why I didn't do any heavy duty "soul searching" without a
    counselor.  It's too easy to fall into that trap.
       
    I also agree with you that you don't own any responsibility whatsoever
    with regard to her current bitterness.  Agreed; a person who is
    bitter is unwilling to let go the past and move on!  I think some
    like it because it feeds some misplaced need for attention (a theory
    only!).  If she wasn't angry at you, it would just be someone else.
    
    Re all
    One other point is future interactions.  Some people who are bitter are
    complete jerks!  Let's face it, that happens!  But where the person is
    somewhat reasonable, there is hope.  My present actions are somehow
    incorrectly connected with the past and unless there is a significant
    change in the way I deal with her, my ex would think I was just being
    rude again, or "What's wrong??? He's too nice."  Consistency is something
    that helps me.  In this case consistently short phone calls and
    consistently being cordial.
    
    
    			   John

    Why is she bitter?  I think it is because I called her bluff and let
    her leave, then filed for divorce.   As much as anything else, I think
    she is angry with herself (and we all know how that kind of anger can
    eat you up).  
    
    Do I perpetuate it?  I hope not.  I try not to, but, I think it makes
    her angry all over again when she sees or hears that my life is just
    fine without her.  I have not had an angry word for her (she usually
    (99.9%) will not speak to me :-)) in the last seven years and I try
    really hard not to pull her chain or push her buttons.
    
    My personal wish is that she would find someone else to be angry at all
    the time.  Get a life.