Conference quokka::non_custodial_parents

    If you can prove that the older daughter was physically and/or
    mentally abused, then you have a good chance with the younger also.
    
    If the older daughter will testify of talk to authorities about
    what has happened to her and any incident that she has witnessed
    against the younger daughter.  You ex will be the one with the
    uphill battle to retain custody.  
    
    Your ex is operating from her confidence that the court will favor
    her no matter what.  Don't let her bully you.  The court takes an
    even dimmer view of child abuse.
    
    It may be a tough fight, and asking a daughter to testify or talk
    against her mother is an extremely tough call, but the alternative
    (leaving a child in an abusive situation) is exponentilly worse.
    
    fred();

    This is a tough one because I see me and my sister many years ago.
    The loyalty a child has to their primary caretaker, no matter what
    the circumstances, is really hard to break.  You don't know what
    the ex had told her about what it would be like to live with you,
    what the consequences are to her if she expresses such a desire,
    etc.  Because of my own abusive childhood, I say get them out of
    there no matter what.  As a adult, in retrospect, I can say I wish
    someone had done that for me.  
    
    It's a big toss up - life could get better for the younger daughter
    if your ex does not have the pressures associated with the older
    one, on the other hand, they could get worse if the only one your
    ex has around to take out her anger on is the younger one.
    
    I suggest you consult a psychologist who specializes in child abuse
    to see what her chances are at home.  My guess is that she may resent
    you for a while if you force her out, but will eventually come to
    understand.  Eventually is an undetermined amount of time though.
    
    Good luck.  I'll be thinking about you and am anxious for the outcome.
    

    Kenn,
    
    Is there any chance of the eldest daughter talking to her sister
    and encouraging her. 
    And please consider letting the children see their mother, whatever
    happens.
    
    Don't get dispirited, we may not be there physically but....
    
    Dave

  Sabrina (oldest) said that she has been talking with her about it but
  she feels that she not convincing enough.  I talked with her about it
  alittle also but she still wants to see what happens.  I know after I get
  Sabrina out here and she starts progressing for the better, Jenny will
  notice the difference.

  It's the "in the meantime" that is going to get to me.  Once I get back
  there, I'll be able to better assess the situation.

   Hi Kenn,

   I don't have any information to offer, but I hope it all works out for
   the best for everybody involved.


   							Terza

    Kenn,
    
    I too am going for custody of my two sons. Unlike you, I am going with
    NO attorney (legal help). I have extensive research completed on the
    " Annotated Laws of Massachusetts " January of 1990 a new law was
    passed called Shared Custody. I have the law and I have put together
    a 5 page implementation plan as to how I will carry out the Custody
    when/if awarded. I found some interesting laws that I will have as my
    defense.
    
    I am NOT even using the " UNFIT " route either, by the way. If this is
    the route that I will be forced to use I WILL. I have that documented
    also. I have documented child neglect/abuse, visitation deniles etc.
    etc. I have been working this group now for about 16 - 18 months and
    have Congressional backing now and written many letters to newspapers
    and tv and radios. I will be going in front of a Congressional Hearing
    Panel in the fall of 1990 or early spring of 1991 to testify and also
    " Bills " are planned to be submitted to the State Legislature by my
    Congressional Rep ( who has been working with me ). 
    
    If you want/need more information or anyone else, feel free to contact
    me.
    
    I have info that could help alot of us NCP's........
    
    
    doug

    Kenn,
    
    let me tell you a few things that has hppened to me.  to set the
    stage...I left my ex 4 years age, my sone was 12 and my daughter was 7
    and my ex is extreamly bitter and has double standards.
    
    At first I thought the kids would be better off with my ex.  I say this
    in spite of the fact that she used to tell my son that she hated him. 
    Well as time went on, and the contempt charges regarding visitation
    right mounted up, I could write pages in this area, I figured it might
    be worth while to go for custody.   After the divorce I filed another
    contempt chrge for visitation rights.  At the first hearing on this the 
    judge ordered an investigation by Family Services.  It took over 6
    months before they finally investigated.  
    
    The person assigned to do this investigation was a man, (the relevance
    of this comes up later).  First he interviewed my ex, then he
    interviewed me.  Well, when I walked in and shook his hand he looked at
    me like I was some kind of vermin.  He started out by telling me that
    my ex said that she civorced me because I was seeing another woman.  I
    started to shake by head and laugh.  I told him that I diviorced her
    based on cruel and abusive treatment and her affair and that is in the 
    court records....look it up.  I continued to tell him what really
    happened and gave him documented facts.  By the time I completed the
    interview he no longer thought I was dirt.  During the interview he
    asked for some people he could talk to about me.  By this time (2+ years
    after I left), I was living with my present "friend" and asked him to
    talk to her.  He said he deffinatly did want to talk to her.
    
    The next step was to talk to the kids.  Now the investigator wanted to
    do this in a neutral area, and school seemed best to him.  A little
    history needs to be plugged in here....Shortly after I left my ex took
    the kids to see a therapist who used to be our neighbor.  During the
    sessions my ex sat in to see what the kids said.  Afterwords she
    confronted the kids saying that they weren't thinkling right and that
    this is the way they should feel.  This happened again when the kids
    confided in the guidence counseler in school and my ex found out some
    of the things they told the guidence counceler.  So now the kids have
    been burned twice, trust no one and said they didn't want to talk to
    the people from Family Services.  The kids finally agreed and talked to
    the investigator.  After the interview was completed the investigator
    saw that the kids were having an extremly difficult time dealing with
    the divorce and called my ex and said that the kids had some problems
    with me, my girl friend, her and her (also live in) boyfriend.  Well
    let me tell you, she lost it.  She started screaming at him and when
    she finished with him she went after the kids.
    
    The investigation finished with the investigator coming to my apartment
    and talking to my girlfriend.  
    
    We waited for another 4 months for the conclusions.  the bottom lin was
    that the in vestigator recommended that I get sole custody.  He wrote
    in the report that every night for at least 1 hour my ex would go on
    and on about how bad I was and cry and whine.  The investigator said
    that due to the relentless negative barrage (his words) the children
    were not capable of making a decision on where to live.  We waited
    another 3 months for a court date and then my ex's lawyer said that it
    had been too long since the investigation and we sould do another.
    
    To keep this brief, The second investigator was a woman and she did not
    spend half the time the first person did and recommended that the kids
    stay with the ex.  
    
    At this point I was running out of money, patience and everything else.
    The kids told me that the ex told them "If, for ANY reason you go to
    live with your father, you will NEVER see me again".  That got to the
    kids.
    
    There is more to the tale but I just can't rehash it any more
    
    So bottom line is....I wish you well, but remember....there is no
    justice in the court system.
    
    Bob

    Bob,
    
    Trying and not winning is not failure.  *Not trying* is failure.
    Because one of these days your children will be able to judge for
    themselves, and they will know that you cared enought to at least
    try.  Keep in touch with thim.  Keep letting them know you care,
    and one of these days it *will* work out.
    
    fred();

    Thanks Fred.  I understand that in my mind, but sometimes it is hard to
    make my heart understand.  I have a basic philosophy that all things
    work out in the end.  That helps me between now and then.
    
    Bob