Conference quark::mennotes

    > Why is this?
    
    Because men are more easily arroused by visual stimuli than are
    women?
    
    That's what I hear, anyway.
    
    /Greg

    because also men give love to get sex, but women give sex to get love.

    so it follows..

    \bye
    \nasser

>because also men give love to get sex, but women give sex to get love.

Absolute cobblers!  I just can't decide who that is more insulting to.

re .0

>Just that men tend to talk about it more than (most) women.

That may be the case in mixed company, (I think the same applies to men), but
women do discuss the issues involved in sex.  Not however, a topic one could
openly talk to a man about unless of course he was a VERY close friend, or a 
lover.

>Men tend to like porno flicks.

I saw a porno flick once, and laughed so hard I couldn't go on watching.  But I
guess one (and a bad one at that) is insufficient basis.  Perhaps women prefer
erotica to pornography.  And the two are most definitely different.

regards,

joyce

    hi,

    what does absolute cobblers mean?

    is it bad when one tells you you are absolute cobblers? i dont i heard
    any one says iam absolute cobblers so iam confused.

    thanks!

    \nasser

re -1

In your case /nasser,  I'd take it as a compliment.

;^)

joyce

    thanks Joyce!

    i always likes complements! i dont get them very much so when 
    i do it feels very special and it makes me feel so special too.

    \bye!

    \nasser
    

Joyce, how do you differentiate between erotic and porn ?

I think it's true that some men (maybe most men), during adolesence (and maybe 
later in life too) are influenced by erotic/porn films, magazines or books. 
But girls and women are exposed to this type of material too and do react. 

Some months back the 'Californian Dream Men' (is that erotic or porn ?) came to
Munich. Their show was a complete sell out. The women weren't just interested, 
they were wild. I remember seeing a Sally Raphael James (I think that's right)
show where three calendar guys were interviewed. The women in the audience were
excited and very interested. What made me laugh was one granny (she must have
been in her 80's) told one of the guys he could leave his shoes under her bed,
anytime !!.

Are men just more honest than women when it comes to erotic/porn ?

- Paul.

    Women have no interest in Flicks, cuz we have "Harlequin Romances!"

>    Women have no interest in Flicks, cuz we have "Harlequin Romances!"

    Never understood why women liked these books. Or why more men don't.
    Those stories are the absolute opposite of the the feminist ideal. But
    they're every mans dream. The gorgeous strong independent woman who
    just swoons at the first time the man kisses her (even against her
    will) and then falls hopelessly in love with him. It usually takes him
    longer to fall in love than it does for him to (physically) enjoy her
    company.

    			Alfred

    I've come to view porno flicks, girlie magazines, nude dancers, and
    other forms of deliberately getting yourself all worked up in a situation 
    where there is no relief as basically a form of self masochism.  

    Maybe I'm just getting old, or wiser, or both.
    fred();

    Re .10
    
    > self masochism
    
    Applying for a position in the Department of Redundancy Department,
    fred() ?
    
    :-)
    
    -dick

    .9

    >Never understood why women liked these books. Or why more men don't.
    >Those stories are the absolute opposite of the the feminist ideal. But

    because most of the times, what women tell men they want and women
    really want are 2 different things. that is why no man will understand
    women and that is why even freud did not understand what women want
    and that is why no point even trying to understand women. after all
    you dont have to understand them to love them and live with them.

    hope this helps.

    \bye
    \nasser

    Well, I don't like either porn or harlequin romances, probably for
    similar reasons.  I've never seen a porn movie that could compare in
    quality to, say, Howard's End, or Room With A View, or any Woody Allen
    movie.  In other words, they all had bad acting, and boring plots. 
    I guess I just can't stay interested in watching two boring strangers
    going at it.  Maybe if Woody Allen, or Henry Jaglom, or Merchant Ivory
    would do a porno film with interesting conversation, giving glimpses of
    what I perceive to be the meaning of life, I could get into it. 
    Harlequin romances are the same, all fluff, no substance, not literary
    enough for my taste.
    
    My ex-husband used to tease me that I had never been able to stay awake
    through an entire x-rated movie, and I used to tell him that the plots
    were just too boring!
    
    re .2, nasser, in general, I tend to agree with you on that.  (it's
    frightening!)
    
    Lorna
    

    IMO...
    "porn" is what we call it when men produce/read/watch it. "erotic" is
    what we call it when women produce/read/watch it.
    
    IMO...
    it's a fallacy that women are less susceptible to visual stimulation
    than men are. I think the difference is, women are socialized to not
    talk about it.                                   

    re .14
    
    That women are in general less aroused visually than men is not a
    fallacy.  It is clinically measurable and measured.  Only about a third
    of women take similar pleasure in visual stimulation as do most men.

    
    
    re .14
    
    There is most definitely a difference between porn and erotic material.
    Porn typically is directed towards one sex which most often is the
    male.  Typically the woman in porn is merely an object.  
    Erotica has it the other way around.  Typically they are directed
    towards women's pleasure where the man is the object.  
    
    A few years back I worked part time at a video store and each month
    the crew would preview the smut films.  It was always in mixed company.
    Most of the women viewing would end up laughing and not being affected
    sexually in any manner, whereas the guys were visibly "affected" by
    the viewing.   Course the majority of these films had the women being
    used as objects.  I do agree that both men and women are visually
    oriented.  However, they  are visually stimulated by very different
    views.  
    
    

     re. o  why is this? 
    
    Well, personally, they are sickening and gross. It's not real. 
    If a guy was "into" that sort of entertainment, why not tape himself
    and his partner..at least then it would be real instead of looking at 
    silly looking people and dumb plots.   and why watch in the first
    place.....to learn how????
    

re .15:

>    That women are in general less aroused visually than men is not a
>    fallacy.  It is clinically measurable and measured.  Only about a third
>    of women take similar pleasure in visual stimulation as do most men.

Is there a sex-neutral way of measuring arousal?

    Re .18
    
    > Is there a sex-neutral way of measuring arousal?
    
    Yes.  Aroused persons of either sex exhibit increased blood flow and
    pressure, heightened activity of the central nervous system, turgidity
    in the genitalia, and other characteristics that can be observed and
    measured.
    
    -dick

re .7
How I differentiate between the two is I suppose, subjective.  Erotica is 
more sensual than sexual.  Erotica leaves something to the imagination, porn
is explicit.  But of course that's highly generalised.  Any material, which
in any way degrades either gender is not for *my* viewing pleasure.  

As for some women liking "romance" novels, methinks that comes down again
to imagination.  They are not so explicit as to paint a picture of copulation,
that's sex; not romance! 

Paul, I haven't seen  Californian Dream man, nor the Sally Jessie Raphael episode 
mentioned, but I can imagine.  I'm not sure I'd class it as either erotica or 
porn!  More humour/entertainment?  Are men more honest?  I think if a woman
tells you that she's viewed such-and-such and found it repugnant/repulsive/
degrading etc etc, you shouldn't assume she's being dishonest.  I've seen
some porn, not much.  And the reason I don't is that the porn I have seen is
created by men, for a specific part of some male psyche.  [I'm being very
careful not to over generalise here ;^) ]   Not for me, and I dare say, not
for many women.

re .12
>because most of the times, what women tell men they want and women really 
>want are 2 different things.

As I said /nasser, absolute cobblers.  But it does begin to explain your
dating problems ;^)

regards,

joyce.

    And I've seen the long lines of women standing in front of
    Chippendales. No visual orientation there, huh? It was very popular for
    a long time, and spun off lots of imitators, plus anciliary products
    such as 'hunk' calenders, male bikini contests, etc. Some of the
    women get quite carried away in these male strip joints.
    
    Erotica is a subjective term. Madonna puts out (pun intended) a book
    called Sex and album called Erotica, and I find nothing erotic about
    either one. She is not erotic, as a person, to me. She is a cold,
    commercial calculation.
    
    Copulation, I believe, can be filmed erotically; it is not the
    explicitness that is the problem, it is the context and tone of the
    way that it is done that would make it erotic or non-erotic. I've
    seen near-porn films that I thought were pretty sexy, and it wasn't
    the concept of leaving something to the imagination, as it was the
    imagination of the film-maker and the participants, in the way it
    was made. It isn't the what, because sex is sex, it is the how that
    it was done that makes it erotic.
    
    And, I'll bet there are big variances among men and women, within
    each group, about what they individually find erotic. Different
    strokes for different folks. %^).
    
    -roger
    
    

    I'll take a shot at answering why women don't generally get turned on
    by porn films.  
    
    At least based on the few that I've seen.
    
    One, they're funny. Unintentionally so.  Okay, they're not making
    Lawrence of Arabia here, but I didn't think they were supposed to
    resemble a Saturday Night Live spoof, either.
    
    Two, the women, while usually *fairly* appealing, are pretty much the
    only things worthwhile in the show.  Of course, that means if you
    aren't turned on by big boobs and glistening bodies and all those nifty
    things Mr. Beeler described in his topic note on dirty books, well,
    then the film's not going to do anything for you.   The guys *I've*
    seen in porn flicks are hardly the sort I'd want knocking through *my*
    bedsheets, therefore, watching them knock through someone else's isn't
    especially interesting.  
    
    Three, did I mention the films were unintentionally funny?  Oh, I did.
    
    Four, what they're doing in the films looks so clumsy and (sometimes)
    violent and well, fake (considering it's supposed to be the real
    thing).  It's just not erotic, it's clincally interesting in the same
    kind of way a dead body is.  ("Yuk.  Do I look like *that* when I *do*
    that?  What stupid noises she/he's making.  My God, my waist is ten
    times thicker than hers.  Her thighs don't jiggle.  That guy's back is 
    hairy.  Where the hell did the maid come from?  Oh, yeah, right, like she 
    just happened to have a roto-rooter in her dusting bag.  Boy, you know, 
    you'd think they'd clean up that spilt wine before it stains the 
    carpet....")   
    
    Once you'd decided that a porno flick is far less arousing than, well,
    moderately entertaining, watching it simply gives room for the mind to
    wander from the pertinent details.  And/or you start treating it like a
    movie being shown on Mystery Science Theater 3000.
    
    
    Just my two cents, naturally.  Your mileage may vary.
    
    
    kim

    

    re .22, I think you're right about the men in the porn flicks.  Yuk. 
    
    When I want to get turned on by watching men on film, I watch videos of
    David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, INXS, U2 or The Black Crowes.  David
    Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, Michael Hutchence, Bono and Chris Robinson,
    are more sexy clothed and singing than most men are naked and screwing.
    
    Sure, maybe I'm visually turned on sometimes, but visually turned on by
    what?  Not some anonymous actor naked screwing some anonymous woman. 
    I'm turned on by Springsteen's ass in a pair of tight jeans, or Bono's
    cleft chin , or David Bowie's cheekbones....  I'd rather imagine what I
    could do with them, than watch a couple of idiots I don't care about in
    a porno film.
    
    
    Lorna
    

    re .23
    
    Er, Lorna, if you don't mind me asking... just what would you do with
    David Bowie's cheekbones?

    David, this is a family notesfile.  David Bowie's cheeks are better
    left in his trousers.

    re .24, I'd like to lick them.  :-)   (the ones on his face, that is! 
    The ones in his trousers, I'd just like to grab)
    
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Anyone who says that women don't watch porno flicks hasn't watched
    the "soaps" lately.
    
    fred();

    re .27, I hate the soaps.  They make life seem too trashy for my taste.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .25, .26
    
    Sorry... the lack of oxygen must have done something to my brain... 

    Re .29
    
    That's a straight line *almost* too good to pass up.  But, as I said,
    this is a family notesfile...
    
    :-)

    re .30
    
    Er, yes... I was thinking of something quite different when I wrote
    .29...
    
    I think I should stop now.

    >
>       <<< Note 26.28 by VAXWRK::STHILAIRE "sometimes life is obscene" >>>
>                               -< not this one >-
>
>    re .27, I hate the soaps.  They make life seem too trashy for my taste.
>    
>    Lorna
    
    Yea, but this is where a lot of _women_ are getting _their_ information
    about what modern life _ought_ to be.  Heck, if you haven't been
    married 3 times, had 6 affairs, been raped once, and tried for murder 
    at least once, then you just ain't livin'.
    
    fred();

    I think that between Porno, soaps, TV shows, and advertising...a lot
    of very false information is presented to boys and girls about what
    human relationships are all about. Some people can not sort out the
    difference between reality and what they read/see in the media.
    Porno is not any different than an ad on TV that shows the women
    all over you if you just apply product XXX to your body or drive
    a certain car.
    
    Why single out Porno??? The reason was stated before...its the TV shows
    own personal agenda.
    
    Marc H.

     re .32
    
    >yea, but this is where a lot of _women_ are getting _their_information
    >about what modern life _ought_ to be.
    
    Oh come on Fred this is bull.  This might be where alot of young
    girls who do not have to work fulltime to support themselves are
    getting their information.  The only time in my life where I actually
    got into a soap was in college when I was allowed the luxury of 
    having some free time to watch tv with.  Funny thing is that most
    of the guys would be watching along.  Course this was engineering
    school where guys were the majority of the students.  Still have
    a male friend who religiously keeps up with "his soaps".  
      
    
    
    I would agree though that the media has quite an impact on society
    in general.  We all know to keep up in todays world we each have
    to be flexible and adaptable.  This applies to all peoples!!!
    
    Michele

    >When I want to get turned on by watching men on film, I watch videos of
    >David Bowie, Bruce Springsteen, INXS, U2 or The Black Crowes.  David

    Lorna, you actually like this dude Bruce Springsteen?? (i dont who
    the other are), but i have no clue why women just suddenly
    start falling apart and loving a dude just because he jumps up and down 
    and scream in the microphone all at the same time, while if they saw the 
    same dude before (without knowing he was) say like in the street, they 
    would not give him the day of time, no they wont.

    this guy Bruce Springsteen is not even pretty one !!

    i could never understand women. no boy i cant.

    \bye
    \nasser

    re .35, Nasser, you don't know who David Bowie is?  My goodness!!! 
    He's been around even longer than Bruce has!  (and he is still pretty,
    after all these years)   :-)
    
    Anyway, actually, if I saw somebody on the street who looked just like
    Bruce Springsteen I'd be very happy to give him the time of day.  :-) 
    I love his music, I like the way he looks, the way he talks, he gives
    great concerts, and, hey, for a 43 yr. old guy, he has a great body! 
    No fat.  Saw him twice in concert this summer and he looked fantastic. 
    *sigh*
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna, I only know Bruce and the one who wears only one glove in his hand,
    that is all, i just happen to know bruce because by mistake when i flipped
    over the MTV channel one day by mistake and they were talking about
    him, for some reason he name stuck in me.

    if you want to listen to real songs, listen to Nit King Cole or
    Frank Senatra or people like that, real people, the rest just jump up 
    and down and  scream, women like them because women just like the image 
    of a star, i bet you 5 boiled eggs that if you saw the one with the 
    one glove  and you did not know who he was before that, you'll flip him 
    over the curb without a second thought, but if a woman is told this dude
    is the same and only dude who jumps up and down and screams at the stage, 
    they suddenly stars starts appearing in the woman eyes and they fall in 
    love with him.

    women are so strange, i tell you.,

    hope this helps.

    \bye
    \nasser

    re .34
    
>    >yea, but this is where a lot of _women_ are getting _their_information
>    >about what modern life _ought_ to be.
>    
>    Oh come on Fred this is bull.  This might be where alot of young
>    girls who do not have to work fulltime to support themselves are
>    getting their information.  
    
    I'm confused.  Why do you say this is bull, then basically agree
    with me??
    
    fred();

.34> Oh come on Fred this is bull.  This might be where alot of young
    
    If that's bull, then why isn't it also bull that a lot of men are
    getting their ideas of how to treat women from porno flicks?
    
    The "work full time" idea is irrelevant with VCRs.

re .37

>if you want to listen to real songs, listen to Nit King Cole or Frank Senatra 
						^^^                    ^^^^^^^

:^) :^) :^)

Thank you, that was a worth a smile or three.

joyce

>    If that's bull, then why isn't it also bull that a lot of men are
>    getting their ideas of how to treat women from porno flicks?

 The comparison is apt.

    
    RE: Porn vs. Erotic
    
    Porn is when they 'take it out' for orgasm.  Erotic is when they 
    'leave it in'.
    
    Shawn
    

    >i bet you 5 boiled eggs that if you saw the one with the 
    >one glove  and you did not know who he was before that, you'll flip him 
    >over the curb without a second thought
    
    I bet she would, too.
    
    %^).
    

    re:.41
    
    It's probably "different" somehow, and being a man, I "just don't get it."

 Well, Michael, it's ALWAYS different. Otherwise there could be no justification
for double standards.

    re .37, Nasser, I'm not sure that I can say that reading your reply has
    actually helped me with anything, although your viewpoints are, as
    ever, interesting.
    
    Lorna
    
    ps - I don't like Frank Sinatra or Nat King Cole.  Boiled eggs are
    alright, but 5 at once is just too much for me.
    

    
>>    ps - I don't like Frank Sinatra or Nat King Cole.

    What???!!  Ohmygawd.  What's the world coming to?
    

    I did like one song his daughter did a few years ago, though.  It was
    called Someone That I Used To Love, I think.  
    
    For the most part, as far as singers go, I'm more of a Van Morrison-Bob
    Dylan-Neil Young kind of person, though.   :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
   >> For the most part, as far as singers go, I'm more of a Van Morrison-Bob
   >> Dylan-Neil Young kind of person, though.   :-)

    Yeah, I can understand that, Lorna.  I was just teasing you.
    I happen to think that Nat King Cole produced some of the most
    dulcet tones of any popular songster to date.  ...and that Frank
    Sinatra's no slouch either.  Not with that band to back him up.  8^)

    Diane

    Geesh, Diane, *anybody* could be as good as Sinatra with that band for
    backup.  Cole's another story.
    
    -dick

    .46
    
    thanks Lorna! (i think?)
    
    \bye
    \nasser
    
    ps. i like bob marly too, the "no woman no crying" song is really
    great i think. but that is another story too. 
    \bye
    \nasser
    

   >> Geesh, Diane, *anybody* could be as good as Sinatra with that band for
   >> backup.  Cole's another story.

	Well, I don't know about *anybody*.  I wouldn't want to hear
	Dan Fogelberg, for instance.  Or however you spell it.

	But I know what you mean.

    Some are okay once in awhile. Most beat anything that's on t.v. between
    7 am and 6 pm. I can't imagine what loss it would be if every talk show
    and soap opera just disappeared. I would MUCH rather watch Ginger Lynn
    that Roseanne or Oprah. At least porno flicks do not attempt to portray
    themselves as something they are not, unlike the t.v. talk shows that 
    pretend they are exercises in intellectualism.

    
    I would never watch one alone!  But I like to watch them w/ my husband.
    
    Louisa

    Anyone have some titles to "decent" ones? Or is that an Oxymoron?
    
    Marc H.

    >>Or is that an Oxymoron?

    That sounds about right. Seen one game of hide the sausage, you have
    seen them all.:)

Who needs them when you have the real thing !

- Paul.

 I don't think "needs" is the best verb, Paul. :-)

    Even when I can't have the real thing, I don't need or want porn.
    
    Besides, who needs porn when they can watch Springsteen, David Bowie,
    U2 or INXS videos?  Those guys can do more to fulfill my fantasies,
    just singing, fully clothed, than any porn flick could.
    
    Lorna
    

I share Lorna's attitude on this one.  I've never had an interest in porn
movies or porn magazines.  It brings up more frustration than anything else
for me.  It just makes me want the real thing !


I'd like to share something else about porn that I've heard.  That is, that the
porn industry perpetuates the abuse of women and children.  Women and children
are offered money to do degrading things.  Then those of us that spend money
on the porn support the mistreatment.

/Eric

	>>Women and children
        >>are offered money to do degrading things.  Then those of us
	>> that spend money on the porn support the mistreatment.


	So the men are doing it for free?

That should have been re.58.

Why ? 

I "need" the real thing - love, romance. They sustain me as a person.
I don't "need" porno flicks. 

Or were you trying to make another point ?

- Paul.

 

    re .63, I thought he meant that some people *want* it whether they
    need it or not.
    
    Like Eric said I find it more frustrating than anything else.  If I
    can't have the real thing, I'd rather put my mind on something else
    entirely and try to forget about it.
    
    Lorna
    

    Children aside. Women who are over the age of consent are considered
    logical, adult women. Who know when they are prostuting their values,
    them selves, etc. So your saying Eric that they are incapable of
    thinking? If so, your digging yourself a nasty hole.:)

    re .65, it's not that they are incapable of thinking, it's that society
    has not traditionally offered a lot of options for women from bleak
    economic backgrounds, with only average intelligence and talents.  Some
    women have been lured into what have turned out to be very unpleasant
    and exploitative lifestyles because of this.
    
    That is not to say that there are some women who have been happy with a
    career in porn.
    
    But, you know, there is a big, difference between some poor, woman
    being lured into acting in a triple X rated movie, and the type of
    woman who poses for the SI Swimsuit Issue, for example.  I don't think
    Kathy Ireland (is that her name?), for example, is being exploited. 
    She's well paid and probably enjoys what she does.  The photos are
    quite nicely done and attractive.  But, porn movies are something else
    and it is known that promoters have traditionally lured hapless young
    women, from poor backgrounds, into doing this type of thing.  Afterall,
    would you want your daughter to make a career of it?
    
    Lorna
    

    I hate to admit this, but a few years ago (I think I was in college at
    the time), I was watching the "Geraldo" show, and he had a bunch of 
    "porn stars" as guests.  I got the impression that the female
    performers were paid much better than their male counterparts.  
    
    I guess even though most porn videos are male fantasies, the real 
    "stars" are the women.
    
    Depends on how you define "exploitation," eh?
    
    
    Jon

    Different strokes for different folks..... if you will excuse the pun!
    
    Agreed, many videos come some way towards tittilating the viewer, if
    they are lucky enough (or have done sufficient research) to find a
    production company which makes videos which conform to their taste -
    and that can be either a man or a woman. 
    In my opinion all these people who go on and on about how videos lead
    to various crimes are not getting to the root of their problem. Isn't
    the problem that a few viewers just have insufficient gumption to cope
    with their entertainment media - in just the same way your US
    grandparents decided that drink was the root of all evil...........
    If you have a well educated well adjusted society I suspect a large
    number of "problems" would be dramatically reduced.
    
    Education rather than litigation in my ideal society!
    
    Richard

    
     Porn flicks are no different than any other movie, production wise.
    Some have big budgets, some don't. The quality of the movie ultimitely
    is dependant upon how many $$$ are dumped into it.
    
    TC
    

    The threat of AIDS would make making porn flicks risky business now I
    would think.  The use of condoms etc. would I suppose make the flick less
    appealing to many I suppose.
    
    There is a 'mechanical feel' in the porn flicks I have seen.  That is,
    the people don't act like their in love (because they are not) and it
    shows.  I find the lack of deep emotional (love) passion a turn off.
    
    
    Jeff

    re: "being paid to do degrading things"
    
    	I would classify most of the military in this category. If you
    attempt to kill anyone for any other reason than that you believe it is
    right then that is degrading. Men are much more exploited in this
    respect than women.
    
    	I would hate to argue against anyone who believed their war,
    terrorist bomb, or private gunfight was righteous, but anyone who does
    that sort of thing without believing in it is certainly being degraded
    in the same way as they might be degraded by appearing in a
    pornographic publication of some sort.
    
    	And there are some people who believe they are doing the right
    thing in showing people how to get more pleasure by experimenting with
    their bodies. If they choose to accept money for this then it is no
    more wrong than the Serbian (for example) patriot who expects a pension
    if he gets his leg shot off.
    
    	Being paid to compromise your morality can occur in many forms, and
    most of them are not sexual.

    Being paid to fight a war that is not your war may be degrading, but it
    is often done under duress, i.e., under threat of hard time in stir. 
    Baring one's body for money on screen is not a parallel situation.

    > Your right. But the there isn't anyone shooting at you...
    
    ...unless you're doing a snuff flick.

    Ah, but the usual snuffee did not volunteer to be snuffed.  The beasts
    who produce such films don't advertise what the actual pay scale for a
    starring role is.
    
    But we digress.

    Neither does the guys who are drafted to shoot at some guy named
    Charlie.:) And some of them get snuffed before they get a chance to
    experience the fun of phoo-tang. Some of them don't have hair one
    between their legs when they put on the green for Uncle Sam. And if
    they get alittle heavy handed with the gun play, they can go to jail
    for being bad boys. 
    
    Yes, we do disgress.:)

    What beats me about Porno Flicks is that there ARE people who will
    happily make them.. and from the few that I've seen, the blokes seem
    to all be having fun at it.. and to think.. they're getting PAID for
    their "contribution".
    
    These days, mind you, I gather from an edition of "Donohue" which I saw
    earlier this year, it's not uncommon for USA lovers/marrieds to video
    their bedroom action for distribution and sale throughout the USA.
    
    What's the world coming to?
    
    
    Don
    

    	 re. -1
    
    
    		A theater near you?....
    
    
    

    re .77, well, that was crude.
    

    Thank you!:) From you, I consider that flattery!:_)

    Re .79
    
    ..'twas a clever li'l retort if ever I've heard one.. hehehe.
    
    (And I just lurv a sense of humour like that!)
    
    
    Don
    *8-)

    re .81, yeah, well, I'm glad you took it the right way.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re .78
    OK then, let's get down to the nitty gritty.
    
    1) You object to married couples selling the rights to watch them
    making love on video.
    2) Others object to the use (or abuse) of paid actors having sex on
    video.
    
    What would you charge for 1)... right!  I thought so (there would have
    to be a substantial number of zeros in the number for me too) - you are
    more expensive than hiring an actor or two (or three - they *must* use
    stand-ins in these films :-)) ....but there must be couples who are
    open enough (or poor enough) to do these performances. 
    
    So, what is it... "open" attitudes or financial deprivation?
    
    Richard
    

    	The porno business is lucrative for everyone concerned these days.
    An established porno queen will get magazine layout offers for explicit
    porno magazines, she will also tour the country performing live strip
    acts at places like the Golden Banana, the Fuzzy Grape, etc. The more
    famous porno actresses earn in the high 6 figure range and some like
    Marilyn Chambers made millions. The window of opportunity for these
    women opens and closes very quickly. They either sell or they don't. In
    many cases, they're actresses that couldn't get regular acting jobs
    because they just didn't have that special talent. Frustrated and
    broke, they'd rather make $1000 a day for making a porno film. Some
    make a film and end up posing for the magazine rack mens magazines like
    Hustler etc. and make $10,000 for a photo spread. 
    	Now you can call that exploitation if you want, but these women
    have had the opportunity to turn around and go get an 8-5 job doing
    many things. Alot want the money fast and are willing to sacrafice
    anything to get what they want. There's no difference between them and
    the aggressive female in business who is willing to do anything to get
    to a top level position.
    	Men who perform have lss avenues open to them in the porn business
    unless they are will to make porno straight and porno gay films. The
    market for gay films is as active as straight films. It does provide a
    greater opportunity for work if this is his chosen field.
    
    	BTW...Most of my information comes from a study I did on the porno
    business and the people in it in Portland, Maine in 1976. I was my
    project for a class called Sexual Attitudes at the University of Maine
    in Portland. I was amazed at the money in the porno business from films
    to aids to books........
    
    Ken

    
    re.85
    
    Interesting point about porn stars taking the money when they can get
    it...  I just rented a video called Leather Jackets (NOT a porno flick)
    that had Ginger Lynn, a porn star, appearing as... a stripper, gee how
    appropriate. 
    
    Tim
    

    But, do most men respect women who star in porn movies, or pose for
    X-rated magazines?  Would most men want their wives to do this for a
    living?  Would most men marry a woman who acted in X-rated movies? 
    Would most men be happy if their teenage daughters chose to be porn
    stars or strippers?
    
    Lorna
    

    As I see it the immorality involved in porn is that people are having
    sex with people they don't love.  Sex, IMO is supposed to be something
    you do with someone you love (or believe you love).  Porn corrupts
    the intended loving relationship between people.
    
    Its the same issue with prostitution.  People having sex for money
    rather than for love.  But I suppose that ideals aside the Worlds
    oldest business will continue to florish.  Where there is a demand
    people will fill that demand.
    
    No, I wouldn't want my wife in porn movies, she is supposed to love ME
    not be off having sex for money with some guy she could care less
    about.  
    
    And no I wouldn't want my daughter in them either... she should be 
    having sex (if she wants to) with someone she loves. 
    
    Jeff

    
    Lorna,
    
    
>    But, do most men respect women who star in porn movies, or pose for
>    X-rated magazines?  
    
    Don't know enough about the individuals to answer this question ... I
    do not automatically disrepect someone (woman or man) because they do
    porn.
    
    
>    Would most men want their wives to do this for a
>    living?  Would most men marry a woman who acted in X-rated movies? 
>    Would most men be happy if their teenage daughters chose to be porn
>    stars or strippers?
    
    I can't answer for most men ... for me the answer is no ... but why
    does this matter?
    
    It's their life and they can do as they please ... just like (IMO)
    abortion, guns, drugs, cigarettes, liquor, religion, etc, etc.  I have
    more respect for a porn star than I do for a slum lord (for just one
    example).  I do not judge the lives of others if they are not effecting
    others ... unless ...
    
    the question is should they enter my life.  I may not choose to become
    a friend or mate of folks who make some these choices but its their
    choice.                                                  
                                              
    Greg
                                                                        

    Ok Lorna, to answer your question:  "Do most men respect women who do
    porno flics?"
    
    I don't know about most men but I will speak for what I think.
    
    I tend to respect anyone doing porno flics less, both women and men.
    
    Because:  I figure they must not have their relationships with other
    people in proper 'order' because they would not need to do pornos if
    they did have their relationships with the correct priorities.
    
    Even if they are doing it 'just' for the money I don't buy it because
    'just' for the money is not the whole picture.  i.e. no one with 
    their relationships 'correct' would DO it for money. I suppose there
    is an occasional exception if someone is backed into a financial corner
    and has no real marketable skills.  But, as a rule I would wonder
    WHY a person is doing porno flics unless they had relationship problems
    in general.
    
    I can't imagine taking money for sex personally.
    
    Jeff

    Most men don't. However, some guys see her as a)sexy b)street-
    and business- and money-smart and don't care that anybody with
    five bucks has seen her naked and screwing.

    
    
>    I tend to respect anyone doing porno flics less, both women and men.
>    
>    Because:  I figure they must not have their relationships with other
>    people in proper 'order' because they would not need to do pornos if
>    they did have their relationships with the correct priorities.
    
    IMO it looks like you jumped right to the judgements ... 
    
    Who knows these folks **NEED** to do porno (other than them)? Maybe
    they just chose to (good pay, good sex, etc) ... do you NEED to work
    at DEC? or did you choose to?                           
                 
    Who knows what the proper 'order' for their relationships are (other
    than them)? ... maybe a couple enjoys being exhibitionists and getting
    paid is even better ... maybe they have an open relationship when it
    comes to sex .. maybe a million things.  I hope you find exactly what
    you want from relationships and I think that desire has zip/nada/zilch
    to do with anyone's needs but your mates and yours.  
    
    I can't imagine having a mate that does prono but that doesn't mean it
    wouldn't work for others ... I also can't imagine having a mate who is
    religious; and that seems to work for a few million (billion?) folks
    ... what do my beliefs have to do with these other couples ... nothing!
    
    Greg
    
                              
                                          
    

I think Lorna asks a very pertinent question here !

I certainly wouldn't want my wife or daughter doing porn films for her work.

Alot of you men that think porn films is "just a job", please explain if you
still believe that when in fact you wouldn't want your wife or daughter doing
it, but you are fine about your wife or daughter doing other jobs.


/Eric

    Well, I wouldn't marry a porno queen, but I'd sure as hell take her
    out so we could discuss her finer celluloid moments.

    re .94, sure, Mike, and I'm sure a very interesting conversation would
    ensue.  :-)
    
    Personally, I'd have *no* interest in dating a guy who had starred in
    porno films.  I'd be thinking, Don't touch me! Who knows what diseases
    he might have, after all the people he'd been with??  Ick.
    
    Lorna
    
    
    

"Would most men marry a woman who acted in X-rated movies? "
    
    I wouldn't but then I wouldn't marry a swimsuit model or a Miss
    America or ...
    
    But I don't that would be a problem because I'm sure the feeling is
    mutual.
    
    ed

    
> Alot of you men that think porn films is "just a job", please explain if you
> still believe that when in fact you wouldn't want your wife or daughter doing
> it, but you are fine about your wife or daughter doing other jobs.

    Eric,
    
    I don't understand the judgement ... there are tons of jobs I would
    choose not to do (and wouldn't be a fan of my wife, daughter, son, etc
    doing) ... many of them because of MY moral code ... that means zip for
    anyone else's choices or moral code.
           
    I believe working for beer company is just a job ... but I'd never do it
    
    I believe working for cigarette company is just a job ... but I'd never do it
    
    I believe working as a model is just a job ... but I'd never do it
    
    I believe working for a fur company is just a job ... but I'd never do it
    
    etc, etc
    
    In each case I'd bet I'd have problems sustaining a relationship with
    someone who was making a career in any of these fields. So what?  That
    doesn't make these people BAD ... it makes them different from me.  If
    someone wants to do porn or be a prostitute I'd guess different things
    make them tick than me.  
    
    What's your issue with people doing what they desire to for a job?  Or
    do you believe you can judge for others if a job is good or bad for
    them?
                                        
    Greg
             

    
    
    
>   >    
>    Because:  I figure they must not have their relationships with other
>    people in proper 'order' because they would not need to do pornos if
>       
    IMO it looks like you jumped right to the judgements ... 
    
    Yeah..... that was the question: "do men respect women less...'
    Yes I do respect them less and I explained why.  It was a judemental
    question and it got a judgemental answer.
    
  >  Who knows these folks **NEED** to do porno (other than them)? Maybe
  >  they just chose to (good pay, good sex, etc) ... do you NEED to work
  >  at DEC? or did you choose to?                           
    
    I believe you missed my point.  They CHOOSE to do them and thats the
    problem.  WHY do they choose to do them when there are other ways to
    fill their financial and emotional needs?
                 
    No I don't NEED to work at DEC, but I do need to work SOMEwhere to
    fill my financial needs.  Whats whether I need to work at DEC have to
    do with this issue anyway?  And, I havn't choosen porn flicks to fill
    that financial need.  That doesn't make me better than those who do,
    but it does make me question their values.
    
    >Who knows what the proper 'order' for their relationships are (other
    >than them)? ... maybe a couple enjoys being exhibitionists and getting
    >paid is even better ... maybe they have an open relationship when it
    >comes to sex .. maybe a million things.  I hope you find exactly what
    >you want from relationships and I think that desire has zip/nada/zilch
    Zto do with anyone's needs but your mates and yours.  
    
    Fine, to each their own, if porn fills a persons needs then go do it.
    She did ask my opinion and I gave it from MY point of view which is
    the only point of view any person can have.
    
    Jeff    
    

    Greg, I just reread my last reply and I suspect it comes across as a
    reply from a person who is sure that his (my) way is the only right and 
    only way.
    
    Nah, to each their own, I have my values, and others have theirs.  If
    porn is something that a person regards right... fine, then go do it
    I certainly am not going to try and stop you.
    
    The question regarded MY values and I answered from that point of view.
    Just because I think its morally wrong to star in porn flicks doesn't
    mean people don't have the right to do it.  
    
    If I come across as a self-rightous axx, fine, so be it but in fact I 
    am hardly that way.  I do have values though and I expressed them.
    Valuing differences is fine but its getting to be rediculous and I
    think porn is a pretty good example.
    
    Next I suppose there will be a movement to 'value the differences' of
    bank robbers, after all, its just another way of earning a living and
    we should all respect that.
    
    Jeff

I wouldn't want my wife or daughter to do porn flicks. I would likely
respect a porn star less than a burger-flipper, for example. I also would
wonder about their ability to have a 'regular' (whatever that is) intimate
relationship, and wouldn't consider dating one.

   
>    What's your issue with people doing what they desire to for a job?  Or
>    do you believe you can judge for others if a job is good or bad for
>    them?


It's not the people doing the acting in the porno films that I object to.

I object to everyone *supporting* the industry.  I'd rather that everyone be
like me and not watch porno films, not pay money to see them etc.  Whatever
it takes to kill the whole industry.

/Eric

    re .101, yeah, I sort've agree.  I can't understand the appeal of
    watching other people do it.  I would think people would prefer to put
    the effort into finding someone to do it with themselves, instead of renting
    a movie to watch other people.
    
    On the other hand, I can't understand the appeal of watching other
    things that some people seem to enjoy watching either, such as
    wrestling or football, so maybe it is just a matter of
    individual taste.  (But, in the case of wrestling and football, not
    only do I not want to watch it, I don't want to do it, either!)
    (Of course, I probably don't want to do a lot of the stuff that's in
    x-rated movies, either, now that I think about it!!)
    
    Lorna
    

    	There are people who will kill or maim, betray, or have sex either
    for money or merely on a whim.
    
    	There are people who who enjoy seeing any or all of these things
    portrayed.
    
    	The industry is merely putting these two groups of people in
    contact. From the first group I would regard those with a loose
    attitude to sex as the least reprehensible. From the second group too, while
    there is nothing wrong in *watching* anything, I would prefer my children
    to watch sex rather than violence on television. I don't censor the
    television, but I do normally leave the room when there is a murder
    film on.
    
    	I prefer travelogue type programmes, or some of the better comedy
    plays (including classics like Shakespeare), but I would rather have
    sex than violence on the television.

    re: .103
    
    >>	There are people who will kill or maim, betray, or have sex either
    >> for money or merely on a whim.
    
    So, why does sex belong in the same list as "Kill," "Maim," or
    "Betray?"  Last time I checked, sex was a GOOD thing.
    
    Jon

    	What?!   You mean our entertainment providers are encouraged to 
    portray BAD things and discouraged from portraying GOOD things?
    
    	And there was I assuming that if it was discouraged by the
    government it must be BAD. Most other things that are GOOD are highly
    publicised to encourage others to do the same.
    
    	Dave (who would no more give to charity in front of television
    cameras than he would have sex in front of television cameras).

    
    re .102
    
    well perhaps some people are just boning up for the moment when they
    do get between sheets with a real humyn.
    
    dress rehersal as it were. 

    "Boning up?"  Interesting choice of words.

    
> Whatever it takes to kill the whole industry.
    
    Eric, I'm just curious ... 
    
    What other industries would you like to see killed ... alcohol, drugs,
    prostitution, cigarettes, race car driving? 
    
    How do you decide?  Is it because you believe it is "bad for society"?
    or "they are not victomless crimes"?  or what?
    
    Do you do anything lots of folks would like to stop .. drink, smoke? 
    What do you think when someone says they wish that industry should die?
    
    Thanks,
    Greg
    
    

    	There is historical evidence that a proportion of the human race
    has enjoyed pornography and/or prostitution for at least 2000 years.
    See the ruins of Pompei for evidence for a few examples. In the U.S.
    you have evidence from alcohol prohibition of what happens when you try
    to supress an industry that produces something people like.
    
    	You might be able to discourage and reduce some of the worse
    effects, just as drunken driving has been reduced but not eliminated.
    To kill the industry would probably require a genetic alteration that
    made the human race no longer interested in sex, and we could leave
    the world to the dolphins and white mice.
    
    	The evidence from many cultures is that to kill the industry you
    would have to kill the human race. Look at Indian, Japanese, Arabic
    literature of 1000 years ago.
    
    	You can limit it somewhat if you think that is a good way to spend
    your tax money, but for myself I would prefer to tax pornography and
    spend the money on inner-city education or other social needs.

Actually, to answer some of your questions...

Yes, I stopped drinking over 6 months ago.  Partially because most of my friends
don't drink.  Partially because I decided I didn't like the tiredness it caused.
Partially to stop  encouraging the industry.  Yes, I do believe we'd be better
of without alcohol in the world.  Who needs the people screaming and beating
up on their family after drinking week after week ?  Who needs the alcohol
related auto accidents ?

As for smoking, I used to smoke pot (didn't inhale of course :-) but I don't
anymore.  I never smoked cigarettes.  Do I mind if you smoke ?  Do you mind
if I fart ? (some dry humor intended there).

Race car driving ?  No, I don't feel any urge to "kill the industry".  Just
make sure you only race on the track, not on the public streets thank you
very much.

/Eric

 To quote Sgt Hulka (sp), "Lighten up, Francis."

 :-)

    
    re. 110
    
    thanks,
    Greg
    

    re:.111
    
    Call me Francis, and I'll kill you.  My name is psycho.
    
    You're obviously an aficionado of quality flicks.

    	I can tell you from personal experience that these people do make
    X-rated movies and tour the strip joints are no different than you and
    me. They have fears and wants. They do what they do to earn a living
    and I really don't have a problem with that. 
    	I wouldn't want my wife or kids making a living that way, but once
    they're 21, I have no voice in the decision. 
    	As sexist as it may seem, I'd have less of a problem with my son
    making X-rated movies than I would with my daughters. I have no good
    explanation as to why, other than I guess I feel my daughetrs would be
    "more tainted" for the experience....and I know that's stupid ....but.
    
    Ken
    	

    How about the men who do these films? Have they no shame? Can you
    imagine going to work and getting paid to get it on with Ginger Lynn, 
    Vanessa Del Rio, Lisa DeLeeuw or Tracy Lords? And, afterwards, saying
    "Jeez, I GOT to get a good job like a salesman or something. Maybe
    I'll sell insurance instead."  One things for sure the looks/figures
    of the present day porn-queens are outstanding. Did anyone out there
    see Larry King show when he interviewed Marilyn Chambers? She explained
    she did "Behind The Green Door" for 1) the money and 2)it was a chance
    to fulfill a lot of her sexual fantasies. Anyone who has seen the film
    knows there wasn't a lot Marilyn missed trying. A very honest answer.
    I respect her for that honesty. She also struck me as having a very
    good sense of humor. That might be a great asset with some of the
    lines of "dialogue" they are expected to say with sincerity in those 
    films.

    i would not do a flick film even if they pay one hundred million
    dollars in cash for it. my body is not for sale. iam not a sex
    object for women to enjoy it, iam a fully emotional human beings
    with feeling and deep sole, and i will refuse completely to have my 
    body used for pure sexual reasons. 

    \nasser

 I suspect your worst fears will never be realized, so breathe easy.

   > iam not a sex
   > object for women to enjoy it,
    
    
    hoo brother...you *really* should avoid leaving yourself open like
    that!  what a set-up line....
    
    Daniel

    Now a MILLION DOLLARS CASH???  Maybe I could be convinced..... ;.)
    
    Things that make you say hmmmmmmm.

gentlemen.  Nasser's position in this regard is perfectly reasonable
and perfectly understandable, and does not require ridicule.  Each of
us must decide such questions regarding our own person for themself.

DougO

    re .120
    Since is Nasser any more above ridicule than the rest of us.  I sorta
    took *his* response as a put-down of the previous noters. I also find
    his response somewhat of a cheap-shot since he probably knows the
    chances of his being offered a million dollars for that is  about as
    much as my chances of getting a personal visit from  Ed McMahon(sp). 
    People will do a _lot_ stranger things than that for a $M. 
    fred();

    Re: Nasser....
    
    	If you do get a $100,000,000 offer to do a porno flick and you
    really don't want to do it....I'm in the book...8^)..tell 'em to call
    me. I ain't much to look at, but I'd put forth my best effort for that
    kind of money.....
    
    Re: Marilyn Chambers....
    
    	She has a terrific sense of humor and is much smarter than most
    folks give her credit for. She's made millions from the porno industry
    and makes no bones about being "lucky" enough to be in the right place
    at the right time.
    
    Ken

really, Fred?  you saw nasser's response (.116) as cheap shots?  I didn't
read it that way.  Everything he said he said for himself, not about
anybody else.  Merely the fact that he has strong views on it doesn't
indicate he was putting anybody else down for their different opinion.
I don't know why Dan or Mark felt the need to make fun of him, and I 
wonder how he could express his views any more clearly.  Every sentence
starts with "I".  He wasn't talking about anybody else.

DougO

    I thought /nasser was just trying to be funny (and I thought he
    succeeded).  I didn't see it as cheap shots, though.  But, now DougO
    has made me wonder if /nasser was serious?   I thought it was sort've a
    cute reply, at any rate.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .123
>really, Fred?  you saw nasser's response (.116) as cheap shots?  I didn't
>read it that way.
    
    If he was just trying to be funny, then he's fair game.  If he is
    being serious, then I see that fact that he made the entry at all
    as a put-down to previous replies.
    
>  Merely the fact that he has strong views on it doesn't
>indicate he was putting anybody else down for their different opinion.

    If having "strong views" is protection against reply in =MN=
    we can delete about 90% of the replies from the disk.

>I don't know why Dan or Mark felt the need to make fun of him, and I 
>wonder how he could express his views any more clearly.  Every sentence
>starts with "I".  He wasn't talking about anybody else.

    Then I don't know why you are so upset about Dan and Mark.  If
    /nasser can make fun if us, then he's fair game.  I haven't
    seen /nasser (or you for that matter) be all that shy about
    poking a little fun at someone.

    fred();

nothing wrong with my 'grip', Fred, I just have a different perspective
than you do.  You saw Nasser's note as a putdown, while in my opinion 
he wrote a note describing only his own position on the matter, with no
putdown directed at anybody else.  You read it one way, I read it another.
Carry on- don't let a difference of opinion slow you down!

DougO

    I saw it as a sort of holier-than-thou comment.  But of course he has
    a right to his opinions and what he does with his body.
    
    By the way if you do get that $ 100,000,000 offer don't forget me
    I might be talked into reconsidering too. 
    
    Laugh
    
    Jeff

    re:.114
    
    They're also terribly rich, if they're not mixed up in drugs.
    
    One talk show had on some strippers.  One said she made about $100K
    per year.  That's what she would ADMIT on TV.  With proceeds from
    dancing being of a tax-free nature, I suppose they make a LOT more
    than that...

    	In 1982 while looking nationwide for a job, I had opportunities to
    read the Houston paper. There were 6 or more ads for strippers. 
    	Topless.....$800-1000/week
        Topless/bottomless.......$1000-2000/week
    
    	Nearly every ad offered the same money......The lower paid
    strippers worked the day/afternoon shift, the higher paid worked the
    evening/late night shift. In the ads it stated that the girls must be
    18 or older and would be required to do a min. 4 30 minute shows.
    I couldn't believe the money.....I had just been laid off after 11
    years and was making a hefty $364.60 a week....
    
    Ken

re .130:

I don't think strippers can work for 11 years.

    Re .131
    
    You must never have heard of Gypsy Rose Lee or Sally Rand.  Both were
    fan dancers (quasi-strippers of another era) whose careers exceeded 11
    years by a good measure.
    
    -dick

Perhaps someone who'll admit to having seen strippers lately will be willing
to say if they've seen any over 30.

>Perhaps someone who'll admit to having seen strippers lately will be willing
>to say if they've seen any over 30.

 I saw one a few years ago (at a bachelor party) that HAD to go better than
40. You couldn't tell by her body, but you could by her face.

.133>Perhaps someone who'll admit to having seen strippers lately will be willing
.133>to say if they've seen any over 30.
    
    Well, now that you've asked ...I happened to find myself in Pure
    Platinum (a strip joint) in Ft. Lauderdale last week.
    
    Three women managed to force us to accept table dances.  Stacy was 28,
    Penny was 31 and Samantha was in her 20s.
    
    A woman in her 30s can most definitely strip, if she keeps in shape.

.130> Topless.....$800-1000/week
.130> Topless/bottomless.......$1000-2000/week
    
.131> I don't think strippers can work for 11 years.
    
    If you're watching Street Stories right now, you'll find out that Amber
    Lynn, an ex-porn star, earns $3000 per NIGHT stripping,  She's been the
    highest pair stripper for the last 8 years (yes, EIGHT).
    
    $3000 per night?!  Wow.

    I wonder how much the strippers make at Pudgy's on Rt. 20, in
    Shrewsbury?  (Is that place still open?)  I doubt they're making a
    thousand dollars a week!
    
    Lorna
    

 You'd be surprised. It depends how often they work.

 I know a girl who dances wearing (some,skimpy) clothes and can make over $50
per hour. This is in an area of the country that is much less affluent than the 
northeast.

    I didn't know that such an area existed?
    
    Marc H.

    what is the big deal?
    
    a guy running around with a ball and throw it in basket with a hole
    at the bottom of it makes 3,000,000 per year, that is about 9,000 bucks
    per day! or about 350 bucks per hour!
    
    \nasser

    >what is the big deal?
    >
    >a guy running around with a ball and throw it in basket with a hole
    >at the bottom of it makes 3,000,000 per year, that is about 9,000 bucks
    >per day! or about 350 bucks per hour!
    
    No big deal at all -- but there are more "exotic dancers" than NBA
    players, by several orders of magnitude.  

    re .110
    
    Sorry to enter the fray a bit late in the day - but I've been reading
    through the whole topic and came across .110
    
    As a fully-fledged Australian, I take offence at the implication in the
    first paragraph that those who drink week after week end up screaming
    and beating up their family.  I also resent the implication that,
    because I happen to be fond of what <insert own deity> has blessed my
    country with (smack-lip-mungously wonderful wine) I am going to either
    cause or be involved in an auto accident.
    
    I love my reds and whites, my fortifieds and my late-pickeds.  I am
    sensible, hold down a good job, am single (but then see Womannotes
    about that!) and have never hit a woman in my life, nor have ever had
    the desire to.  I drink a bottle of wine a week, sometimes more if I've
    been to a party and my country has some of the toughest drink-driving
    laws in the world.
    
    Following your logic, Eric, I should be angry at computer screen
    manufacturers because I now have to wear reading glasses, I should be
    angry at hi-fi manufacturers because, now we have CD's and DCC and
    <insert latest tech wizardry> all of my old vinyls sound horrible.
    
    But I don't - because of the benefits I have felt and appreciated
    through them.  Computers make my life a damn sight (bad pun intended)
    easier and give me great scope for much-loved creativity.  CD's give me
    the opportunity to listen to music randomly, in the order that I want,
    with no clicks and pops, endlessly should I wish.
    
    Similarly, wine gives me the opportunity to help my country out in its
    economic mess, to appreciate the toil, sweat and knowledge that goes
    into the making of anything that is derived from Nature and it gives me
    a talking point with friends and colleagues.  It also tastes (depending
    on the wine) anywhere from excreable to wonderful (even better than
    sex! - after all, we've all had bad sex at one time or other) but even
    that can be fun - just the simple talking about it and remembering it
    years later, reminiscing with old friends.
    
    And as for Porn (the basenote, after all) ........
    
    Well, I'm all for it.  Granted some women are manipulated (sorry about
    that) by economic circumstance, but no-one is going to tell me that a
    $10,000 an issue centrefold for Tits & Teeth Monthly is feeling
    depressed and is pushed into it.  I went out for a few months with a
    prostitute - that girl had her head well and truly screwed on (REALLY
    sorry about the puns - this one not intended) and she knew exactly what
    she was doing.  She made pots of money, we had many wonderful happy
    laugh-filled nights spending her profits at the local 5-star hotels
    and, because she was a smart cookie, she always ensured that her
    clientele wore protection.
    
    I moved states and she stayed in Melbourne.  Lovely girl - I felt no
    problem with her being with other men, because I knew that she wasn't
    emotionally involved with them.  She taught me a thing or two about
    women and how to treat them sexually (with the greatest respect, I
    learnt) and I learnt a few techniques that have served me well.  She
    got a great relationship with someone who treated her with dignity and
    we both benefitted.
    
    And, as a Lecturer in Psychology and a Relate Counsellor has told me
    (and I have no reason to doubt her), Porn and Prostitution do actually
    serve useful purposes, if only to give an opportunity for someone to
    vent their feelings in private.
    
    ...... for what it's worth .......
    
    Lee
    

    As far as I am concerned, no-one forces a person to watch it. One can always
    turn the telly off.
    
    For the people who make the movies, they could enjoy it, or it is
    another way of making money. 
    
    If couples want to get a bit of money by filming their nocturnal
    activities, surely that is their personal choice. Just like someone
    else might work in a pub in the evenings.

Re. Note 26.143 PEKING::SNOOKL

	"If couples want to get a bit of money by filming their nocturnal
	activities, surely that is their personal choice. Just like someone
	else might work in a pub in the evenings."

I can't disagree with you about personal choice but don't you feel there's a 
subtle difference between working in a pub and having your nocturnal 
activities filmed ? 

I can relate to somebody wanting to go to the pub for an evening of pleasure 
but I have trouble relating to somebody wanting to watch another couple at it. 
I'm more into participation sports myself ... :-) they're a lot more fun don't 
you think ? Then again different folks, different strokes.

- Paul.
 

    rep. to note 26.0
    
    Bubba, 
    
    I don't know whether if u still access this topic, but if u do, let me
    tell u that women are no different than men when it comes to porno
    flicks.
    
    It's just a matter of preference ... like some women prefer romantic
    movies over war movies, some women prefer comedies over western etc.
    If there was ever a romantic comedy porno done, I'm pretty sure that
    women too might find these flicks interesting ...
    
    BTW, I know someone (a lady) who simply enjoys pornos (just to qualify,
    she is not one of those maniacs...)
    
    Ravi

    Bubba doesnt work here anymore.

    Rep. to note 146.
    
    >> Bubba doesnt work here anymore.
    
    Thanks for the info ........
    
    BTW, what Cruel Spa did u survive ....
    
    Regards
    Ravi

    The Cruelest Spa is in my cellar. Its a micro gym. I got a few good
    toys, not allot.:) 
    
    

    Dear Rauh ,
    
    nothing could be crueler than what I have in my attic ....... I just
    use chain-saws, cowboy-boot spurs ..... ummm um!
    
    Ravi

    Dear Ravi,

    I am 6'2" at 260 lbs, lift weights. And I could very shove your 
    keyboard up any of your body cavities. Even side ways. Most cruelly.
    
    

    
    what a truly mynly conversation.

	I find it very interesting so much intellectual time and effort is spent
trying to eliminate pornography.  There is a growing mindset in this country to
control much of what men have.  We harbor no doubts that pornography is geared
exclusively for men.  Perhaps that is the problem.  Men, particularly straight
white men, are now expected to "behave." In other words, men cannot do anything
for just themselves any more.  Private clubs are expected to accept females,
even if the club itself has been exclusively male for over one hundred years.

	I am digressing.  "They", whoever they are are out to control us all. 
No one is harmed in the production, sale and distribution of pornography.  Yet
someone is always out to shut the industry down.  In the meantime we tell our
kids they might have sex so here's a condom  Enjoy, and OBTW these only have an
80--85% success rate.  We'll hope you are not among the unfortunate 15-20%.  We
praise an Olympic Diver because he gave himself a disease through unprotected
sex with another.  He is considered a hero, no less!!.  He is the epitomy of
self-centeredness.  He hadd "the courage to go public with two facts.  First
that he is gay, and then that he is HIV positive.  Yet we don't bother to
publically chastise him for not even informing the doctor who stitched his head
that  he had HIV.  This same public will condemn me for looking at people having
sex.  I am further condemned should I happen to enjoy it. 

	It is quite true that some are coerced into pornography.  I very
seriously doubt there are any "porno slaves"  An adult has a right to earn money
any way he/she chooses, as long as that person is not violating the rights of
others.  The solution is simple.  If it offends you cut it off.  Leave! 
Pornography, TV, and print media are all market driven.  If people did not buy
it it won't be around.  

	 Why, are we so concerned with who is having sex on film/video, but we
don't want to do anything about the rising rate of crime that is engulfing all
of our kids.  We are expected to understand the reasons for a criminals actions.
We should care, and feel the criminals' pain.  Oh and by the way leave your gun
at the door.  
  
	I too would not like to see my daughter/wife in a porn film.  I would
not like to see either one working at a laundry,landfill, or health spa either. 
I am not so vain as to feel that everyone has the same feelings as I do.  

	One thing is for certain.   A larger proportion of the female population
could earn a living as a stripper/porn actor than male.  We men are quite
willing to pay big money to  see a strange female naked.  Perhaps the sad part
is that some of us would not pay the same to see their SO in the same situation.
I enjoy making love to my wife. By the same token, I enjoy watching a young
nubile woman in the nude.  The mystery aspect of partially clothed just does not
cut it with me.  

	If you made it to this part of my note congratulations.  This has
rambled considerably.  I do not usually get on my soapbox to this great extent
but this subject hit a nerve that I had allowed to stay exposed too long.  
Great discussion!!

Mike 
	    

	

    I think visual stimulation is quite nice.  If there is an attractive
    man (or women) in a movie - person - or whatever - 
    you look, think and fantisize.  well, I do...
    But I love seeing a man or good tasteful sexy movie - not pornos
    because I thing they make it look gross and cheap. 
    They are funny.  I do not like them but the ones I have seen (3)
    are funny and gross.
    They do turn me on but I hate to admit it..