Conference quark::mennotes

    
    \Alfred,

    this is a sensitive question, i think about it this way.

    if you love your wife and she loves you, then there is nothing you
    have to worry about.

    if you love someone, let them free, if they fly away, then they never
    loved you, and you did not want them any way, but if they fly back, then 
    they really love you.

    either way, you win.

    i know some men can't help but be too jealous, but i think a healthy
    relations can;t be based on jealousy, because to much of jealousy will
    ruin most loves.

    \nasser

    re: .0  You knew this guy? You've been diss'd. There's nothing
    complimentary about it.

    
    What he thinks of your wife may be complementary of your wife, but what
    he apparently thinks of _you_ in this case is definitely not
    complementary of you.  What he thinks of your wife is also in question
    since he apparently thinks she is the sort of woman who would go for
    that sort of thing.  He can express his appreation of her physical
    and mental character without trying to "make a pass" if that is his
    intent.
    
    fred();

            .3

    the husband can interrupt a compliment to his wife as a "pass" if he so
    chooses.

    jealous husbands can make believe anything they want.

    that is why jealousy is bad for relations.

    replace jealousy with unconditional love, and all will be fine.

    hope this helps.

    \nasser

    I don't think that men only make passes at married women who seem like
    they would fool around on their husbands.  I think there are men who
    have enough confidence to make a pass at anyone they are attracted to.
    
    There is also the question of what exactly is considered a pass.  I
    have an idea that there would be a difference of opinion right in this
    file if we tried to come up with a definition of exactly what
    constitutes a pass.
    
    Also, if the other man doesn't know the husband of the woman, then
    there is certainly no negative reflection on the husband.  In fact,
    even if the other man does know the husband, it doesn't mean he doesn't
    respect the husband.  It may just mean that he has the hots for the
    wife, and hasn't even considered anything about the husband's feelings. 
    Some men have enough confidence to just go after what they want.  This
    doesn't mean it's right, but it doesn't necessarily reflect their
    opinions of anybody else either.
    
    Lorna
    

        re .5

    >    Some men have enough confidence to just go after what they want.  This

    And some men (contrary to popular propaganda) have enough integrity
    not to.  Doesn't mean that they don't "get the hots" or that they don't
    live up to the level of confidence.   

    fred();

    I can't see showing a complete disrespect for the insitute of marriage
    and a persons integrity for purely self sexual gratification as a
    compliment.  Nor do I see it as a man having 'confidence' but rather
    limited or none existant sensitivity.  
    
    Of course if your wife catches the pass, sorry, two can keep each other
    company because whatever you thought was there - wasn't.
    
    If he persists, then, It would be another matter to settle.  
    
    They do have re-attachment procedures so all would not be lost (as long
    as they find where it's thrown).
                                                           

    Oh, it depends on the whole context of the pass situation, history,
    etc.  Sometimes a pass is just a pass, I suspect, without any piece by
    piece analyzing required.  
    
    kim

        .7

    >I can't see showing a complete disrespect for the insitute of marriage
    >and a persons integrity for purely self sexual gratification as a
    >compliment.  Nor do I see it as a man having 'confidence' but rather
    >limited or none existant sensitivity.  

    gee wize, i hope you dont go through all you life this serious.

    you making it sound like world war 3 is about to start.

    go take a shower and shill out.

    if you are so paranoid that you are going to lose your marriage just
    because another man admired your wife, then you are in deep trouble.

    take it easy. relax.
    
    \bye
    \nasser

    
    a pass as distiguished from flirting?
    
    a serious pass is a faux pas, flirting 
    on the other hand could be considered
    a lefthanded compliement. 
    
    let your own sense of your relationship govern..

    
    It depends on the situation and you have to do, what YOU think is
    right. And don't forget to talk to 'her' about this before you make a
    decision for yourself.
    
    *Birgit
    

	I don't see it as a compliment or an insult but rather as a consequence
	of living.

	We interact with each other, unless you happen to be dead, all the
	time. You find one person sympathetic, another attractive, another
	interesting, another boring, and around it goes. Even though I'm
	married I can't stop myself from finding other women attractive and
	I know the same applies to my wife about other men.

	- Paul\

    re:9
    
    Already had a shower today!  Guess I don't let you and my wife in the
    same room or you don't know the guys that I do!
    
    WWIII is on.  Look around you, just hasn't been declared yet.

It's difficult to form an opinion without understanding the context.

In general, the guys' probably just being a jerk.  Some men are like
that (women too) - they'll flirt or make a pass at anyone, just to
feed their ego.  The results are inconsequential to them - they'll
rationalize rejection anyway.  There may be a reason why he's being
a jerk - and that's where context comes in.  I had a friend who acted
like this - until he sobered up.  Others whom I've known are always
like this - sober or otherwise.  Hopeless and insecure, they impose
their fragile egos on others, and seem to lead otherwise lonely lives.

Neither you nor your wife can be responsible for another man's
stupidity.  If there's a legitimate excuse for his indiscretion,
perhaps you can find the generosity to forgive him.  Otherwise, 
write it off.  He's just a jerk.

tim

    
    
    -1
    
      Excellent note.

    I grew up in a country where compliments to women and to any attractive
    person is part of life and quite nice, I might say! I personally was
    never at a loss on how to react to a compliment or a pass or things
    like that.  Of course there are occasional jerks here and there, but
    mainly people mean well and if a woman is a lady behaves as such, and
    there is no problem or danger for her or husband. But... if she finds a
    jerk and she has no class or respect for her husband... then there is
    something to worry. Men "know" how far they can go, believe me! and
    I've never found a confrontation between husband and "admirer" that
    went farther than it should... of course we are talking about people
    that truly admire beauty in women and find then attractive enough to
    say something about it, normally, it is taken as a complement, never as
    an insult.  It becomes an insult if the person is a real jerk and
    behaves in an improper way, but a normal woman "knows" how to handle
    any situation way before it becomes an issue to her husband. 
    
    Ana
    

 
 I totally agree with Tim note .14. People can be real jerks sometimes
 and not even realize what they're doing. I personally loose all respect
 for any person who actively persues a married person or for that matter
 a betrothed person regardless of that persons state of relational/marrital
 happiness. Personally if I see a ring on a womans finger either engagement
 or wedding it immediately triggers a switch inside and will thus change
 my thoughts on persuing this woman with relationship intent. I guess its kind
 of like seeing anything of beauty which is desirable yet somehow belongs to
 another. If its not available due to ownership or "if a person" due to betrothal
 or marrital vows to another, then regardless of the attraction, it should not be
 coveted, stolen, or worse coerced to breaking a commitment for personal gain.
 Rather this person or item of beauty should be admired for the beauty it
 bestows and complimented on.

 Neil.... 

    I somewhat agree with .12, given we all interact with each other, it is
    reasonable to conclude that feasibly we can appreciate certain
    traits in people other than our spouses.  That is one thing - however,
    flirting to me is more than an appreciation but has the edge of a come
    on.
    
    I looked up flirting in the dictionary and here is the definition:
    
     Verb: To make amorous advances without serious intentions.
     Verb: To treat lightly or flippantly.
    
    What do you all think about a married man that likes to flirt? Do you
    think it is okay? Do you think it is disrespectful to his wife?
    
    Just curious,   
    Kim

	Having read some of the last few replies I kinda feel sorry for
	any woman who's married. How must it feel to find yourself a social
	leper just because you wear a wedding ring.

	The preposition in a lot of these replies is that some men will make 
	a cold pass at a married woman - which I've never witnessed. I also 
	think we've forgotten that a lot of woman don't want to feel dead before 
	their alloted time. But then again life seems to be very different
	on the other side of the pond.

	- Paul\
	

Re.18

	In my opinion, not that it's worth much, a man or woman will flirt 
	for one of a number of reasons:
	
	1. They're over friendly - which is ok because that's the way they
	   are but this can be difficult for a possessive or jealous partner
	   to deal with.
	
	2. They're bored with their partner - which isn't ok because there's
	   obviously a problem in the relationship.

	3. They're at a party, they've had a few, and somebody is flirting
	   with them so it would be rude not to return the flirt

	4. They're at a party, they've had a few, and they're being a jerk.

	5. They're a jerk.

	6. They're Italian.

	It's not ok if somebody is getting hurt as a consequence. FWIW

	- Paul\	

    re .20, also, I've thought that sometimes people will flirt with
    co-workers, while on the job, just to pass the time because their jobs
    are boring.  
    
    Lorna
    

Re.21

	Good point Lorna but maybe it's somebodys notes persona that others
	find so attractive :-)

	- Paul\

    The first time it happens, I call it bad judgment.
    
    The second time it happens, with the same guy, I'm not so forgiving.

    If it's just flirting, fine.
    
    If it's a *serious* pass, both you and your wife have been dissed. 
    He's dissing you because he's saying he thinks you're not worth keeping
    a vow to, and he's dissing your wife because he's saying that she looks
    like enough of a whore to break her vows.  Dis him back.  Give him a
    drink laced with syrup of ipecac.  :-)

    That's pretty funny, Mark, seeing as how you flirt openly with every
    female on the net.
    
    Well, maybe not all of 'em.
    
    Only those with a pulse.
    
    Or those who recently had a pulse.

Re.24

	What does 'dissing' mean ? What form does the verb take - is it
	possible to say 'to dis' someone ?

	

>What does 'dissing' mean ?

Slang/short for 'disrespect'

	Thanks.

I noticed that a lot of replies here avoided the question in .0.

Instead of talking about a man making a pass at a married woman, they said that
flirting is OK or complimentary.  I agree.

I think that a guy who makes a serious pass at a married woman is probably a 
jerk, at best.  Change the genders in that if you like and I will still agree.

    re .31
    
    Yeah, I see a marked difference between flirting and an actual "pass".
    A pass has the intention of acting on this. I'd call the guy who you
    say is fully aware that you and your wife are married, a jerk.
    
    As with another reply, for me, wedding/engagement rings are out of
    bounds for legitimate passes. OK, some harmless flirting and certainly
    compliments are OK as long as the woman is not uncomfortable. I must
    say that all married woman aren't comfortable with flirting. Some are,
    some aren't.
    
    One reply said that a guy who makes a pass at a woman with a ring on is
    "confident". I question this, too. I'd call this guy a lot of things
    that I don't want to print here, but "confident" is the last thing I'd
    call this guy. I always say to my single, female friends "If you're
    married, wear a ring. The guys who don't hit on you are the good guys.
    The guys who hit on you are just jerks looking for a quick fling
    (cleaned up for ENET consumption". 
    
    Possibly I'm heavily burdened by my high respect for the institution
    for marriage. I just feel that if you're married, you don't screw
    around. If you want to screw around, don't get married - or get
    un-married.
    
    
    jeff

    re.32
    
    Yup, there's nothing to say against this.....;*)
    
    Birgit

      .0 
>               -< When a man makes a pass at a married woman >-
>
>    What does it mean when a man makes a pass at your wife knowing
>    that she is married?
>
      Not an easy question Alfred.. You see a pass is a progression of many
      steps. It works on the line "If the answer = yes then proceed"
      All things being equal, long before the move is considered a pass there
      are a number of movements from both parties, a number of commitments a
      number of Yesses, some of the yesses can be conditional yesses. This is
      normal and healthy.
      If your wife goes home with him and stays for 6 month, this usually
      *means* that you are single again.
      Rgds,

      ps the compliment part is just the confirmation that we all need that
      "we did the right thing", "right choice", etc

.34>      ps the compliment part is just the confirmation that we all need that
>         "we did the right thing", "right choice", etc

When I need confirmation of my actions, I turn to people I respect.

I see no reason to believe I would respect the third party described in .0.

        Re   .35 
>When I need confirmation of my actions, I turn to people I respect.
      An exception to the rule..
>
>I see no reason to believe I would respect the third party described in .0.
>
      And the second party. Is that a thinking being with own volition?

.36>      And the second party. Is that a thinking being with own volition?

Since .0 only says how the second party does *not* behave

.0>    Let's leave out the case where the wife "catches the pass". That's

I'm not going to make any judgements.

The pass as described by     

.34>   You see a pass is a progression of many
>      steps. It works on the line "If the answer = yes then proceed"

may sometimes occur, but there are jerks around who don't bother with all
this progression.  I can't make a judgement about previous behavior just
because a pass was attempted.