Conference quark::mennotes

    
    i expect to live independently as long as possible, then 
    fade from the scene quickly.
    

	I've often said, mostly in jest, that the best thing my father did
	was to marry a much younger woman when he remarried. :-)

	Once during a conversation about social security taxes my father
	said to my brother "you either pay SS tax or have to take care of
	me later." My brother said he'd pay the tax. I told my father his
	room would be ready. So I guess there is some difference among men
	about this.

	I pretty much expect my son to be there for me and my wife when/if
	we need care later on. I hope he'd learn that from his parents as a
	basic value. I spend some time and a not inconciderable about of 
	emotion taking care of my wife's Grandmother. She's in a community
	care home that I found for her, got her into, and pay the bills for
	(mostly with her money which I am also responsible for). I hope that
	my son sees by example that taking care of elders is not just a woman's
	job.

	I don't know much about non-custodial parent situations. I have never
	been involved in one and hope never to be. My father (widowed) raised
	4 kids mostly by himself. All kidding aside I expect that all four of
	us (3 at least) would have open homes and wallets when/if he needs care
	for in his old age. He's 68 so old age is probably only 10-15 years 
	away. My mother in law, 67 but not in great health, already spends
	about 6 months a year in our house.

	For myself, I'm not sure I want to live to be very old. If you can't
	play basketball is life still worth living? :-)

			Alfred

    Hopefully the guy with the sucide machine will still be around.

    I have begun to realize that it is becoming increasingly likely that I
    will be alone in my old age, and that is not a pleasant thought to me. 
    When the point comes in my old age where my health starts to go, I
    would rather simply end it right there rather than face alone a slow
    downward spiral to death.

    -- Mike

    I am not normally a contributor here but I thought someone might
    benefit from my experience.  The following was cross-posted in the
    GOLF::CHRISTIAN notesfile 2 weeks ago.  I realize that those who do not
    share my beliefs may find it offensive, but I offer it as an
    encouragement to those who find themselves in a similar situation.
    BTW, Lloyd died on April 15 at 11:45 PM, the date I originally posted
    the note.
    
	     I have been wanting to relate our experiences here since this
	note was started and because of the events of the last few days,
	I can think of no better time.  Those of you who are regular
	readers here know that my father-in-law, Lloyd, is in the hospital
	dying.  It has been a time of some sorrow but also a time of great
	joy, for you see, Lloyd was a man of God who loved his Jesus.  These
	last few days have given me a chance to reflect on what it has meant
	to care for him and his wife for the last five years. 

	     My mother-in-law, Dorothy, has had MS in varying degrees of
	severity since long before I met my wife, Sandy.  Through the years,
	as the situation warranted, Lloyd had devoted more and more of his
	time and energy to her personal care.  He retired from St. Vincent's
	hospital as head electrician at 65 to devote himself full time to
	her care.  After about 5 years it became apparent that the day when
	he could no longer do so was rapidly approaching.  We would get phone
	calls after midnight saying "I dropped Mommy" and we would drive 
	across Worcester to help them.  Let me interject that there was no
	real decision to be made.  God put it into our hearts and there was
	no question that we would be caring for them even though Sandy has
	another sister and a brother.  We sold our house and bought the 
	house we are in now, a beautiful brick split entry with a 3 room
	apartment that is wheelchair accessible.  Time does not permit me
	but a string of `coincidences' convinced us that this house was a 
	gift from God, not to mention the witness of His spirit in our 
	hearts.  Sandy's parents sold their house and moved in with us.

	     It would nice if I could say that the last 5 years has been
	all smiles and laughter but I can't.  There have been times of tears,
	anger, harsh words, frustration, etc.  It wasn't long after they 
	moved in that Lloyd was diagnosed with parkinson's and he steadily
	deteriorated.  During his treatment reference was made to prostate
	cancer.  What!?!  He was diagnosed years before and Lloyd claims 
	he was never told.  We suspect that he chose to keep it a secret
	so he could continue to care for Dorothy for as long as he was able.
	He could be so frustating at times, often doing things that seemed,
	at the time, deliberately nasty or mean.  At first we thought that 
	Dorothy would be the problem because she is a very strong willed
	woman but she has been easy to care for.  It was also frustrating
	because I knew Lloyd as a man of God, eager to share his faith
	and always ready to pray in his best King James english.  What we
	were seeing challenged our faith and there were times when we 
	questioned his very salvation.  Sandy's memories of him when she
	was little made it especially painful for her.  She would come down-
	stairs in the middle of the night to find him sitting at the kitchen 
	table reading his Bible.  Friends, relatives and health care people
	would push us to put him in a nursing home and their intentions were
	good.  They were concerned for our family's health and well being. 
	There were times that we almost caved in to the pressure but somehow
	we clung to what we knew God had for us to do.  

	     I don't tell you all this to discourage anyone but rather to
	encourage those who choose/have to care for their parents.  God
	has carried us through and blessed us tremendously as a family and
	individually.  He has shown what it realy means to serve Him.  Our
	children have learned what it means to be servants of the Most High
	God.  I could go on and on about my kids; maybe in the other note
	reserved for that.  Lloyd is now in a coma at St. V's and over the
	last few days God has shown me what a *privilege* it has been to
	serve Him through serving Dorothy and Lloyd.  And it is such a 
	privelege to witness so intimately the calling home of a child of
	God.  In the last few days as his body was deteriorating we watched
	his spirit come alive as he drew closer to being with the Lord.  The
	bitterness and anger was shed like a snake sheds its' skin and we
	began to see the old Lloyd return.  The sense of humor, the smiling
	eyes, the loving heart.  It was all back.  God showed me that Lloyd's
	bitterness and anger was frustration at not being able to serve Him.
	His life was dedicated to serving God through serving others and 
	now he was completely helpless.  We became aware of the many people
	whose lives were touched by his faith and love.  When he worked at
	St. V's as an electrician, people saw him as the true chaplain of
	the hospital.  I have heard that the monsignor (the `official' hos-
	pital chaplain) sought his advice and assistance in counseling patients 
	from time to time.  Also, Faith Baptist Church in Auburn would not
	exist if it were not for Lloyd and because it is a spin-off from 
	Faith, neither would Charlton Baptist Church exist.  I can't begin 
	to imagine how many have come to know Jesus either directly or 
	indirectly through Lloyd.  As he lay dying, I have looked on with
	awe and wonder and almost a feeling of envy.  God honors our desire
	to serve Him and He opened our eyes to the service we have really
	done for Him in caring for one of His wounded children.  I wish 
	everyone could know the joy that is in me right now.  I just want
	to encourage you who serve in this way, IT IS WORTH IT!  

	     I write this not only as an encouragement, but as a tribute
	to my father-in-law, Lloyd Ulie Waters, a child of God.  He's
	going home soon and I don't think I've ever seen anyone so eager.
	I am grateful to those of you who have prayed for us over the last
	few days.  Your prayers have born fruit that I can't begin to express.

	In His boundless love,
	Dave
    

    Older people, whether out of stubborn pride, denial, just plain not
    caring, or whatever will often not go and get the care they need.
    Sometimes if there is no one there to help prod them, help with
    transportation, and possibly help with costs, they will just not
    go.  I know my mother-in-law these last few weeks would have been
    in some dire position if it hadn't been for my wife being there
    for her.  Sometimes it doesn't need to be a lot.  Even that one
    week or one or two days can make a world of difference.  Having
    someone there who just cares can make all the difference in
    recovery.

    fred();

I don't have children, so I expect that there will be nobody taking care
of me later on.  Sometimes that scares me, but not enough to make me regret
my choices.

Part of this is that I couldn't imagine striking that bargain with Fate: if
I take care of this baby now, you have to make sure s/he will take care of
me later on.  It just seems distasteful to me.  The people I know (or can
imagine) do not see that bargain as part of the reason they have children.

Another part is that I would not expect Fate to keep the bargain.  Lots can 
happen in forty years.  I look around and see some old people being cared
for by loving children, and some completely neglected.  Sometimes that 
looks like justice, but mostly not.  I'm not sure how much difference it
makes being a custodial or non-custodial parent.

Another part is a whole set of feelings I have about love, commitment and
entanglement.  I'm not proud of those feelings, but they have been part
of my life.  What kind of a person would I be if I avoided commitment when
I was young and didn't need it, and then insisted on it when I got old?

    Wally's remarks hit on an important aspect of why I don't expect my
    children to take care of me when I'm old and feeble.  I don't see it as
    any sort of a bargain with Fate.  Bringing children into the world
    wasn't something I did so I could have a soft place to land 60 years
    down the road.  I don't believe that our children owe us anything in
    exchange for their very existence; they owe us respect as people, as
    parents, as friends if we're lucky, and so on, but not because our
    genes bumped together and they popped out.
    
    If they do take care of us, it'll be because they want to, not because
    they ought to.
    
    -dick

    This past weekend I had an op to watch a 30 min movie on some elderly
    men who re-took up boxing. And they risked death with a cheap shot blow
    to the body. And they were not as agile and graceful as they were many
    years ago. But they sent a message clear to me about age-ing. And that
    is that if you don't keep up your health and your mind. You will be a
    mindless old man frustrated because you cannot do what you have worked
    all your life for. And that was to spend time with yourself and friends
    and family doing the things that mean most to you. You many not have
    children to care for you. So what. You may not have a pention or have
    money to retire in a warm tropical paridice where dentil floss means
    bikini. Yha gotta live and so being able to live to the fullest you can
    now is what counts. Its like bottle of fine wine, life is. And when its
    uncorked later in life, you can remember it as golden or as robust as
    it was made some years ago.
    
    Peace

    Having helped care for my father the last 5 years of his life
    I can honestly say that when my quality of life falls below
    what I consider manageable by me I am out of here whether
    Dr. Jack is around to help or not. ;)

    Having seen my parents take care of their parents with total devotion,
    I expect to do no less than what they did... it is only fair! They
    dedicated a lot of their time to their parents when it was needed, they
    dedicated most of their time to us, (their children) and when the time
    comes for them to need us... we'll be there, believe me! I do expect
    that my children will take care of us just as it has been done for
    hundred of years within our family... we are a family for good or bad,
    and that what it counts. (My grandchildren will take care of 'my'
    children too, just as my children are taking care of my grandchildren
    at the moment... it's just a circle, but... how wonderful it is to feel
    inside it!... I'd LOVE to have my children with me when I die... and
    I'd love to be able to say goodbye... I just hope it takes "a while",
    as I am not ready yet.
    Just my thoughts, Ana
    

    The idea of children taking care of their elder parents is considered
    by some the "natural order of things".  However, after reading the
    book, Age Wave, the author wonders if that will continue because the
    baby boomer are only having 1 or 2 kids, unlike past generations who
    have many children as one way to ensure being taken care of in old age.
    
    The author leads the reader to speculate if the baby boomers will be
    taken care of because there will be so many senior citizens in the
    next 20-30 years (76+ million) who will depend on a younger generation
    much much smaller. He predicts that there might be a generation
    revolution in which the younger folks refuse to take care (Medicare,
    Social SEcurity, etc) of the "greedy geezers" because the burden will
    be so difficult.
    
    It is an interesting speculation.  As for me, I get my dander up when I
    see all these senior citizen discounts.  Persons over 63 own 70% of the
    wealth in America.  The image of the poor suffering senior is,
    generally speaking, a myth.  They have their Florida condos, their
    stock portfolios, IRA, etc.  And then they have the gall to demand
    more, thus the nickname "greedy geezers".  
    
    If this author is correct, we, boomers, will have a rude awakening if
    the younger generation revolt and say no more.
    
    Any other comments.
    

    
    Like Ana, I also tend to see looking after my parents as a moral
    obligation. I have a great respect for their efforts to take care
    of themselves today, and make provisions for tomorrow. But if they
    should live beyond their ability to care for themselves, I feel
    honor-bound to take care of them.
    
    I personally can't imagine looking at it any other way. Taking care of
    one's parents is usually NOT a pleasant task. It is the end of the
    road, they will be passing away soon, and they are sometimes hostile,
    angry and frustrated at their pending death. So, I'm not going to say
    that I look forward to dealing with a paranoid, hostile, demanding
    parent, if that's how it turns out. (Remembering my grandparents, its
    QUITE possible!) But moral obligation supercedes my whims and desires
    on this point.
    
    At the same time, I do NOT feel honor bound to care for OTHER people's
    parents, except in cases where they have mentored me or been parental
    substitutes.
    
    When I think about the 10% discount for seniors, I tend to respect that
    as a sales promotion that makes sense. Wooing the senior crowd, trying
    to get them to part with their "hard-earned savings" makes sense. And
    10% off isn't a lot, in the overall scheme of things. Many of them do
    eat far less than adults in their 20's - 50's. And if some of them
    may be extremely well off financially, it makes sense to get them to
    spend their money, and stimulate the economy.
    
    Additionally, I can understand that seniors, who have seen a day in
    which prices were maybe 10-50% of what they now are on common products,
    probably need a bit of incentive to part with their savings, for
    today's inflated costs.
    
    I think the one wish that I do have is that we could determine which
    seniors are pulling in $100,000/yr or more, and make sure that they do
    NOT receive social security... they don't NEED it. I would add that
    retired military who are gainfully (>$60,000/yr) employed in the civilian
    sector should not be allowed to receive retirement funds.
    
    But, alas, I know that these ideas wouldn't go over well...
    

re 12:

I don't think the size of the cohorts has much to do with it, partly because
cohort size doesn't change that much over time.  Also, the smaller recent 
generations are being supplemented by a lot of hard-working immigrants.

What will cause a change is the greatly increased cost of elder care, due to

	the increasing survival of elders, often to very old ages

	the increasing cost of medical technology

	the increasing opportunity to use that technology

I expect a lot of changes in our ideas and behavior around elder care in the 
next thirty years.  I don't expect a "revolution" because life always seems
to be less dramatic than the authors of these books predict.

.12> The image of the poor suffering senior is, generally speaking, a myth.

There are enough poor elders to make me uncomfortable when anybody
starts talking about myth.

.12>  They have their Florida condos, their
>     stock portfolios, IRA, etc.  And then they have the gall to demand
>     more, thus the nickname "greedy geezers".

Who exactly are they, in this context?  By what I read, wealthy elders 
are resigned to seeing their taxes go up and their benefits decrease.  Their
only "demands" seem to be that their taxes do not double, that their
benefits not be cut to zero, and that some of the cash is used to decrease
the deficit.

.13>     But, alas, I know that these ideas wouldn't go over well...

Right.  Social Security has generally been presented as a social insurance
system, not a welfare system.  And wealthy elders have been buying that 
insurance for thirty years or more.  It would be breaking a promise if we
were to take away their benefits.  

It's OK with me if you want to convert Social Security right now to a 
welfare system.  We all could get a benefit for our payments up to today.
In the future, we would just pay taxes to support poor elders.  In thirty
years or so, no wealthy elders would collect anything, and we would be
breaking no promises to anyone.

Similarly, cutting military pensions would be breaking a promise, a total
pay and benefits package given to the military professionals in return for 
their service.  Its also OK with me if you want to cut future benefits.
Then everyone in the military could decide whether to accept the pay and
benefits package we would offer.

Anyway, why single out the military?  Everybody in the government gets a 
pension, whether they work after retirement or not.  And I could retire
in a few years, collect my DEC pension, and earn as much as I want for
as long as I want.  Why should some soldier have his pension cut while 
you and I get to keep ours?

    
    I mention the military ONLY because they frequently retire at a
    relatively early age. If you enlist at 18, you can retire at age 38,
    and draw a pension in the prime of your life. 

    Re military pensions, and "changing the contract."  At about the 10
    year mark (of his 20 years service) my soon-to-be former husband found
    that the rules had changed.  My dad, who retired from the US Army in
    1971, receives both his military pension (he retired as a Sergeant
    Major with over 30 years service) and Social Security.  Mom also
    receives Social Security.  I seem to recall her telling us that she
    worked for about 2 years before she was married...  
    
    As my s-t-b f husband approached military retirement age (relatively
    young, as 'Ren points out, since he retired as a Master Sergeant at the
    age of 41) he had to select either military pension or Social Security.  
    He selected military pension.  The best decision?  Got me.  (On a
    personal note, I just hope things work out well for him.)
    
    My point?  The rules get changed and promises broken all the time.
    aq
      

    I find it interesting the way so many people (like .1 and .4) say that
    as soon as their health starts to fail, or whatever, they are going to
    check out.  Thinking of my mother, I feel compelled to remind everyone
    that we don't always get that choice.  My mother was 74 yrs. old, and
    in excellent health, shopping at K-Mart one morning, when she suddenly
    had a brain aneurysm (sp?) - a major blood vessel burst in her brain. 
    98% of the people this happens to die within 48 hrs., regardless of
    age.  However, my mother woke-up after 4 days, completely insane,
    senile, whatever you want to call it.  She is 80 yrs. old now, and has
    been in a nursing home ever since.  She doesn't know who I am, who she
    is, where she is, why she's there, how old she is, or what the heck is
    going on.  She is physically in great shape for her age, and carries on
    crazy conversations with whoever talks to her.  Her favorite questions
    to ask me, "How many kids did you have?" or "What grade are you in
    now?"  If I were to say, "I'm your daughter.  I had one child, who is
    19 yrs. old now, and I've been out of school for 26 yrs."  she would
    say, "Oh, that's right! What am I saying?  I know that!"  Then, 2 mins.
    later she'll look at me quizically and say, "Now, let's see, who did
    you marry?"  and peer into my face trying to figure out who the heck I
    am.  It really sucks.  She is diagnosed as having "chronic dementia."  
    
    Before this happened to her, she was a normal person, very practical,
    down to earth, sane, normal human being.  
    
    She wasn't given a choice, though.  It's so easy for people to say that
    don't want to linger on, or be a burden, etc., etc.  But, sometimes
    things happen, and people are not given the choice to *not* be a
    burden.
    
    BTW, my brother and I visit my mother, but we both work full time, and
    she requires full-time supervision.  The nurses at the nursing home
    take care of her.  But, she doesn't recognize us anyway, so it doesn't
    seem like it makes much difference who it is.  The way I see it, that
    poor old lady is not my mother anyway.  Not the mother I knew.  My
    mother, as I knew her, died in the ambulance 6 yrs. ago.  Nobody can
    know how horrible it is to have the personality of someone they love
    wiped away, and their body left, until they have to deal with it
    personally.
    
    I guess the point of this is just to say that we don't always have a
    choice as to whether we need to be taken care of in our old-age.
    
    Lorna
    

    Hey Lorna!
    
    LOVE that personal name!!! I'd do the same, but my boys don't like it.
    Barney only licks my lips if I've had chicken for dinner.

    Re .17
    
    Lorna,
    
    Painful question time.
    
    Your mother, whom you loved and still love, isn't there anymore - the
    person in that body is someone, anyone, no one, you don't know.  Would
    you be in favor of a Living Will type of document that specifies
    non-terminal conditions under which the testator wishes access to the
    services provided by Dr. Jack Kevorkian?  Specifically and solely at
    the direction of the testator, not to be challenged by anyone else, in
    or outside the medical profession?
    
    -dick

    re .19, I think so.  But, I think that would be more likely to be
    needed by someone who had a very painful, terminal illness, someone
    whose body was dying, but whose brain was still alert.  It seems to me
    that a person who was suffering and in pain, but still had an alert
    mind, would be the one who would want out, and if they did want out, I
    think it should be their choice.  I don't believe in prolonging pain
    and suffering if the person doesn't have any chance of getting better,
    or only a very minimal chance.
    
    In my mother's case it all happened so fast that there was no time to
    ask her what she wanted.  However, after the neurosurgeon looked at the
    cat scans of my mother's brain, he apologized to my brother and I, for
    the medics who gave my mother oxygen in the ambulence.  If they hadn't
    given her the oxygen, she would have definitely died.  Her heart had
    stopped beating, and then started again, and she suffered a lot of
    brain damage.  I was surprised when he apologized.  He said it could be
    argued that she would be better off dead, but that the medics have to
    try to save lives, and there was no way they could know that it would
    have been better to let her die.  At least my mother is in good shape
    physically.  She's up walking around, dresses herself, tries to escape
    from the nursing home regularly.  (has no idea where she is, why she's
    there, or where she's going)  If she were confined to bed, and, in the
    mental state she's in now, it would be even worse.  I know if she had
    had a choice she wouldn 't have wanted to live the way she is now,
    though.  Ironically, she was always one of those people who always said
    that if she couldn't take care of herself, she'd rather not be around.
    
    Lorna
    

    Thank you.

    re .17
    
    I know how you feel. My father had alzheimers and knew it.
    Many times when he was coherent he would tell me that if he
    only had a gun he would kill himself. It turns out he did
    have a gun but never used it. I guess he hoped that a cure
    would be found that would change him back into the man he
    was. Unfortunately he just got worse until he was comatose
    in a nursing home with bottles and tubes to keep him alive.
    My dad died long before they buried him which made a terrible
    situation worse.

    Before reading through the string all the way I will take a shot at
    answering this.

    I HOPE to live in reasonably good health right up to the end and then
    go out either virtually instantly or 'after a short illness'.

    BUT, reality being what it is I have to PLAN for 'after a long illness'.
    I intend to be as financially independent as possible so my family will
    not have to pick up an undue financial load if I am lucky enough to
    HAVE a family that CAN pick up the load.

    I have one son who is now five, and a wife who is ten years younger
    than me.  Statistically, I am likely to die before her and she will wind
    up taking care of me.  I would hope that my son would be WILLING to
    help me along care wise if necessary.  I am more than willing to help
    my parents, but being the INDEPENDENT cusses they are I am lucky to be
    able have them take me up on an offer to shovel the snow, let alone
    perform any real care.

    I do believe that the generations should work together (extended
    family), rather than the typical U.S. outlook of each generation more
    or less emotionally and physically remote from one another.  IMO the 
    remoteness and generally attitude of 'each generation living their own
    lives' and to hell with the others in the U.S. is a MAJOR social
    drawback which contributes to MANY of the social problems we read
    about daily in the papers.

    I have little patience with 'children' who are unwilling to help their
    parents along financially and emotionally if asked.  If your parents
    were there for you when you were a kid, you should be there for them
    in their old age which should be due to YOU when your kid(s) grow up.

    I am not suggesting that people who have parents with major problems
    (such as Altzheimers) or severe financial problems should sacrifice
    their entire well being....."just" that an appropriate balance be
    maintained.

    Jeff
    Jeff

    re .5  What a loss!  I am so sorry!
    
    Jeff

    To me the worst part of being old and alone is not that no one would be
    there to take care of me, but that there would be no emotional support. 
    The last thing I need is to be old *and* lonely.

    I remember having a dream about my grandfather not too long before he
    died.  His wife had been dead for several years, and even though he did
    have family, his health was poor, he couldn't see well, and there
    wasn't much for him to do besides watching television.  I remember
    dreaming about his death, and somehow I found myself feeling as he must
    have felt, and I realized how lonely he probably was.  The dream really
    shook me up when I woke up.

    I am the youngest member of my family, my brothers are scattered across
    the U.S., and it is virtually certain that I will not find a life
    partner to share my old age with.  The thought of facing old age alone
    is not something that I want to deal with.  Of course, the reality is
    that I might face a sudden illness at any time, even while young.  I am
    basically a timid person, but there is a part of me that would much
    rather go out with a bang than a whimper.

    -- Mike

    I plan on "Offering" to take in my parents if the situation arises that
    I will be of some sort of help. My parents took in my Grandmother up
    untill the day she died in our house. So for me this is only natural. I
    have even had discussions with my wife, who initially was opposed, to
    taking in the first parent that needed help. And if my financal
    situation changes so that I can afford to take in all that need help, I
    will. But for now it will be one at a time. I have 1 brother and 2
    sisters, they can do their part also. 
    
    I a parent becomes in need of professional help, ie: 24hr care,
    mentally unable etc. I will work to ensure that they get the best care
    in a local nursing home. I will visit often and at different hours to
    ensure that the care is "Good Enough for MY Parents"
    
    PM