Conference quark::mennotes

    The right word in "I <verb> my feelings" is quite likely different for
    each man.  It is also quite likely not a single word in many cases; we
    are far too complex for such simplification to be meaningful.  I might
    say, "I accept my feelings ... but sometimes I wish I didn't have them
    so I could sleep at night, instead of lying awake wondering whether my
    unacceptable (on reflection) behavior has alienated so-and-so."  Yours
    might be a completely different set of verbs and qualifiers.
    
    -dick

    
      basenoter......great choice in verbs !
    
    
       At various times, most you listed applied.  Years ago, it was
    mostly;  ignore, demean + repress. 
    
      Lately, its; accept, respect, + express.  The latter in my music.
    
    
    good topic.   
    

    re .3
    
>If I felt love I confused it.
    
    This sentence is incomplete.  With what did you confuse love?

    re .5
    
    It was a serious question.  Did you confuse love with lust, etc.?

    Something which I have had to learn the hard way over the years is that
    feelings are amoral.  What you DO with those feelings involves
    morality.
    
    Jeff

    re .8
    
    I think lots of men have trouble with love, in all its forms.  That's
    why I asked.  What you said is a whole lot more meaningful than just
    'confused'.  I'm quite happy to accept it as given, without delving
    into the deeper bits.

    What are feelings?
    
    Dictionary says (Webster New World):
       Noun:
    1. Sense of touch
    2. Ability to experience physical sensation
    3. Awareness
    4. Emotion
    5. Sensibilities
    6. Sympathy or pity
    7. An opinion or sentiment
    
    Don't you just love the precision of the English language?  I prefer
    French because it is more precise.
    
    I understand my "feelings" and try to find the best word to express
    that "thing" I am experiencing, such as anger, love, jealousy,
    nostalgia, intuition. etc.  For me to Say "I feel" does not communicate
    clearly and leaves too much room for guessing. 
    
    I embrace this aspect of my humanity as a wonderful part of knowing
    that goes beyond logic, and of experiencing that goes beyond the five
    senses.  Coupled with logic and reason, this intuitive, emotional,
    sensing capability enriches my existence.
    
    Strangely (at least according to my wife) I can turn my
    "feelings" (read emotions here) on and off, ignore them totally if I want 
    to, or change them.
                                            
    Paul

.10>    Strangely (at least according to my wife) I can turn my
>    "feelings" (read emotions here) on and off, ignore them totally if I want 
>    to, or change them.

Yes, it seems to me that most men in our culture learn a lot about 
controlling our emotions and feelings.

One thing we learn is that we cannot act on all our feelings all the time.
Personally, I think this is good, and not something I would want to unlearn.

Another thing we learn is to ignore and deny our feelings.  This is 
occasionally useful, but mostly it causes us a lot of trouble later on, 
like the bottling up and explosion mentioned in .3.  And it often causes us 
to confuse controlling our actions and denying our feelings.  This is 
something I am trying to unlearn.

Another thing we learn is to change our feelings, not by denying them, but 
by changing the thinking and experience related to them.  This is mostly 
good and useful, but we can easily go too far with it.

We also learn that expressing our feelings is always socially unacceptable
and even dangerous, expecially when another man is around.  This is 
something I am trying to unlearn, but it is very hard work.

    re. 2
    >>>   Years ago, it was mostly;  ignore, demean + repress.
    >>>   Lately, its; accept, respect, + express.
    
    What happened or what was the transitioning point where you went from
    ignoring and demeaning your feelings to accepting and expressing them?
    Was it having children?, going through a divorce?, you wife begging
    you to be more expressive? I am very interested in your response in
    attempt to better understand my husband.        
    
    /Kim

    re .12 Kim.  I know you addressed that question to .2 Kim.  Let me take
    the liberty of answering it from my point of view at 50 years old.
    
    My transition was gradual... say over the last five years and I am
    still working at it.
    
    What did it?  A combination of things, but primarily:
    
    1. Realizing, (accepting actually) that the World CAN get along quite
    well without me and that if anybody was ever going to take my feelings
    seriously then I had to first.
    
    2. Caring less about what other people think because no one has a
    monopoly on being right.
    
    3. Losing my job as an Engineer with DEC and winding up in a DEC
    warehouse.   Made me realize what is really important in my life...
    my family.... and making enough money to pay the bills.
    
    4.  Accepting that I am mortal and that there is only so much time
    left for me... it is time to get going with my life, and feelings
    are part of that.
    
    Jeff

Kim,

>    What happened or what was the transitioning point where you went from
>    ignoring and demeaning your feelings to accepting and expressing them?

For me the transition was gradual, over several years and still continuing.

Jeff said a lot of it for me, so I will just add a bit.

Part of it was realizing that I was not comfortable relating to people 
outside of a structure like work or games.  And gradually becoming aware
that feelings are an essential part of how people relate to each other.

Part of it was noticing that I am not a person without feelings, but a 
person who was keeping my feelings under very rigid control.


The book referenced in 27.1, presents a typical pattern for a guy's life:
strongly oriented towards thinking while growing up, building a career
and creating a family, then turning towards feeling at the mid-life
transition, age 40 or 45.  I'm not comfortable with the determinism this
suggests, but I have to admit that my transition started around age 44.

Wally

    What's all the fuss about feelings?  I've always been in touch with the 
    emotions. I'm half French and half Italian, two cultures who have no
    problems with sensing and expressing their emotions.
    
    Next question?
    
    Paul

    Jeff and Wally thank you both for taking the time to answer my
    question. 
    
    /Kim

    .16 what does that mean?  Tongue in cheek?  Well I am glad that some of
    us have no problem expressing feelings.  Many American men have been
    trained from birth to hold feelings in, and as a Society we have alot
    of work to do on it.
    
    Jeff

    .17  Jeff, really it was just a polite thank you. I was really curious
    as to what was the triggering point for a man in expressing their
    feelings from repressing them. My husband is not very expressive, which 
    I have come to accept. However, the more I can understand him, the better.
    I plan on reading the books that were referred to. 
    
    Cheers,
    Kim  

Re. -1

	"My husband is not very expressive."

Kim, can you explain what you mean by expressive. In what ways do you expect 
your husband to react or express himself ?

- Paul.

    Re. -1    Gee Paul - aim, fire and shoot!
    
    Okay, the way I meant "not being expressive" was "ignore, repress his
    feelings" from my perspective.
    
    I will give an example of what I think is pretty representative of what
    I mean with ignoring or repressing his feelings. It actually seems like
    a silly example but...
    
    When we first moved over to Germany from the States (we are both
    Americans) at breakfast on the morning of my husband's first day of
    his new job, in a new office where he didn't know anyone yet, speaking
    German all day; I asked him if he was nervous or anxious.  He said
    "No not at all". I kept prodding him to talk about it so we could joke
    and comfort eachother but finally gave up. That was almost 3 years ago.
    It wasn't until recently when a friend (an American) of ours was
    starting a job we talked about first day jitters especially in a foreign 
    country worrying that maybe you would inadvertantly say or do the wrong 
    thing. He FINALLY (!) ;> was able to admit and talk about that he was 
    nervous on his first day.  It is just that he was socialized not to reveal
    insecurity (for lack of a better word!) as a man. Now do you get my drift?
    
    /Kim                       
    
                

    .11 
    
> One thing we learn is that we cannot act on all our feelings all the time.
> Personally, I think this is good, and not something I would want to unlearn.
    
    This truth pinpoints my concern with the whole discussion about men not
    expressing their feelings, particularly in conjunction with the
    response (.15) about European latin men being more "in touch" with
    their feelings. 
    
    By this I mean that a lot of the discussion around feelings is not
    really sex-specific. Both men *and* women in some families, or some
    cultures are more or less expressive than in others. Further, I agree
    that self-restraint is not necessarily a negative trait, to the extent
    that it fosters civility and minimizes narcissism.
    
    I do not deny that society may push men and women toward different
    average behaviors, or that it is wise to repress feelings, but I think
    we sometimes overstate the case.
    
    Kit  

    Re.   "Gee Paul - aim, fire and shoot!"

Kim, I'm sorry if I offended you. I just say it the way it is - I know that
takes the breath out of some people - but that's me.
    
	"He FINALLY (!) ;> was able to admit and talk about that he was 
   	nervous on his first day.  It is just that he was socialized not 
	to reveal insecurity (for lack of a better word!) as a man. Now 
	do you get my drift?"

I sure do. Kim, I'd like to ask you another question if you don't mind. What 
do you think caused him to open up and admit that he had been nervous ? Did 
the group push him to admit it or did he volunteer the information ?

- Paul.

    re -1. Paul, I didn't take offense - honestly.
    
      >>> What do you think caused him to open up and admit that
      >>> he had been nervous ? Did the group push him to admit
      >>> it or did he volunteer the information ?
    
    I think maturity, experience and my harrassing him to open up ;-)
    is causing him to express his feelings a bit more often. 
    
    /Kim  
    
    

    Ok Kim, on the thank you, thank you.  No, thank YOU!  Just kidding,
    smile.
    
    Anyway, to answer your question what causes guys to loosen up on
    feelings?
    
    For me (this is an on-going process, believe me) there was no ONE
    point.... its a continum.  To sum it up for me:  I gradually realized
    over the years that keeping my feelings inside wasn't enhancing my
    relationships, in fact it was estranging me, and keeping me from
    being fully human.  It kept me from sharing good times and bad times
    with others, in short, it was reducing the quality of my life and of
    those around me. I still have a long way to go on expressing my
    feelings, believe me, but I am far more open than I used to be.
    
    Why?  Why do guys tend to be like this?  I think its for two main
    reasons:
    
    1. Society teaches boys to deny their feelings as legitimate and to
    be EXPRESSED in appropriate ways.  Other boys teach boys to be 'manly'
    and deny the expression of any 'feminine' traits. (Except aggression
    of course).  This Socialization simply continues when boys become men.
    
    Want to make another male uncomfortable?  Starting getting expressive
    about your feelings (except aggression, or xxxxx ing some female),
    and watch him fidgit and edge away and break off the conversation.
    
    2. I think that males are 'engineered' (genes) to TEND to be more
    oriented toward goals and problem solving, with the right side of
    the brain suppressed.  (There ARE 'wiring' differences).
    
    When Society builds upon and encourages traits such as in # 2 then
    you see the result.  
    
    "But what about the French and Italian men who are so expressive of
    feelings".  Your seeing different cultural conditioning of the males.
    
    Jeff
    
    

.21>    By this I mean that a lot of the discussion around feelings is not
>    really sex-specific. Both men *and* women in some families, or some
>    cultures are more or less expressive than in others. Further, I agree
>    that self-restraint is not necessarily a negative trait, to the extent
>    that it fosters civility and minimizes narcissism.

Kit,

Yes, a lot of this is cultural.  I grew up in a middle-class American family 
with Northern European roots.  I learned very rigid control of feelings, and
my mother and sisters are only slightly less rigid.  Men I know who grew up
in different parts of American culture have different attitudes about feelings.

I think there are good reasons for restraint in behavior, but restraint
in awareness is much more dangerous.

.20> It is just that he was socialized not to reveal
>    insecurity (for lack of a better word!) as a man.

Kim,

I don't know him, so I won't speak for him.  But I once always acted this way,
and now usually do so.  In my case it is definitely something I learned was 
the right behavior for a man.  Revealing insecurity (or whatever) on a 
playground was (is?) an invitation to contempt, ridicule and/or assault.

And this cultural pattern makes some sense.  Being able to complete a task
in spite of your feelings is essential for warriors, hunters, farmers and
engineers.  I suspect that if men could not get a task done in spite of 
their insecurity, the human race would have died out, due to chronic male 
virginity.  Ignoring and denying our feelings is one good way (although
not the best) for continuing the task.  Once the situation has gone away,
it is much easier to talk about those past feelings.

Since you seem to be asking for advice, I'll offer some, for what it is
worth.  This is what I would do if I were trying to get a man to be more
aware of and expressive of his feelings

   -	accept the fact that he has learned otherwise, and this has nothing
	to do with the feelings he actually has

   -	learn to listen when he speaks his language, which may be 
	much different from mine

   -	respond positively, in terms he can accept.  Most men want to
	be insightful and thoughtful, but are uncomfortable being seen
	as sensitive or vulnerable

   -	be careful never to respond with contempt or ridicule, which will
	only reinforce that playground training

   -	create opportunities to edge into talk about feelings in a
	safe way.  Most men are more comfortable talking about men in 
	general or specific men, like on TV or in movies, than they are 
	talking about themselves.

   -	share my feelings with him.  Of course, this only works because I
	am a man too, so it gives him the message that it is OK for men
	to show feelings to each other.  When a woman shows feelings, many
	men just take it as more evidence that feelings are women's domain.

    re:.18
    
    There's a Boston comedienne that does a segue that goes something like 
    this : "women don't really want guys who are as emotional as us - can
    you imagine if your husband came home on the first day of a new job and
    started crying because he wore the wrong shoes for the outfit?"

    re. 26
    
    I can't imagine a *guy* wanting a *girl* who gets that easily upset,
    actually.
    
    
    kim (she of the same old shoes)
    
    

 You get only what's available...

    .20> ...where he didn't know anyone yet, speaking German all day;
       > I asked him if he was nervous or anxious.
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    He hears, "Do you have a problem?"
    
       > He said "No not at all".  I kept prodding him to talk about it
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    He hears nagging, disbelief and accusation; he hears, "You *do* have
    a problem; why won't you admit it?"
    
    .22> What do you think caused him to open up and admit that he had
       > been nervous?
    
    .20> recently when a friend (an American) of ours was starting a job
       > we talked about first day jitters
    
    He hears, "my friend has a PROBLEM."  He thinks, "I'm the Answer Man!"

    
    Well people i see you havn't been in this topic for quite awhile
    but i have a problem that has been solved for me but not the way i
    would have liked. 
    	
    
    	You see I'm only '18' years old and i was seeing this '29' year old
    woman that had just gotten a divorce after ten years of marrage. I
    figured that she would be mature enough and seen enough to be a good
    companion. We were with each other for about three months. I expressed
    my feeling often and expected her to be able to do the same thing. (I
    figured she could show some of her own feelings some of the time. But
    the biggest problem was she wouldn't talk about her feelings unless she
    was saying OH I LOVE YOU BABY or in the bedroom. She just couldn't talk
    about things that were on her mind and that bothered me. Shouldn't
    women be able to talk about there feelings more than men or am I just
    expecting to much from a woman.
    
    
    	I hope that someone out there can help me get over this delema
    because I'm confused with having the feeling of 'I hate her so much'
    but I still LOVE the woman. 
    
    	You all are talking about men showing and/or expressing their
    feelings but it scares you momen away because you can't except the fact
    that men have feelings to. I think men have stronger feelings when it
    comes to loving a woman. Then they (women) break our hearts like a
    cheap wine glass.  8^}
    
    
                              very confused with this love thing
    
                                    John Malloy

>Shouldn't
>    women be able to talk about there feelings more than men or am I just
>    expecting to much from a woman.



Absolutely not.  Men and women should both be able to talk about their feelings.

When I was in college (20 years ago), I also thought women should have more
feelings than men, and I thought women were more emotional than men.

My girlfriend and her roomate at the time set me straight.  I quickly learned
from them explaining stuff to me that both men and women can be emotional and
express feelings.

Unfortunately, for too many generations though, little girls are taught to
be caretakers, and little boys are taught not to cry.

Now, back to your situation.  This woman left a marriage after 10 years.  She's
not ready for a relationship right away again.  So, it's ironic that you describe
her as mature.  To me, she's immature if she believes she's ready for another
relationship right away.

Personally, I've never been mature enough to even have a 10 year relationship.
But I have learned to stop keep jumping back into the shorter relationships
I used to have.  And I've learned not to get involved with someone who just
left a relationship.  Such a person may be clutching and clinging to someone
to hold them or give them sex, but they're not ready for a relationship.

/Eric

    re .30,  I don't think you can generalize and say that either sex has
    stronger feelings than the other when it comes to love.  I think it's
    an individual thing and that gender has very little, or even nothing,
    to do with it.  It's very possible that this particular woman may not
    be capable of deep feelings, but that doesn't mean that no women are. 
    Also, just because you are capable of having strong emotions, and
    expressing them, doesn't mean that all men are.  
    
    You also have to take into account that romantic love isn't always
    reciprocated, so maybe the feeling just isn't mutual in this case (i.e.
    you love her, she might not love you).  This doesn't mean that she
    isn't capable of strong feelings, it just means she doesn't have them
    for you.
    
    Hearing about your situation as an outsider, I have a couple of
    observations.  First, I would find it highly unlikely that a 29 yr. old
    woman, who had been married, would take a relationship with an 18 year
    old guy seriously.  She may have thought that the age difference
    precluded any possibility of a serious relationship developing, and
    thought you would be a good candidate for a casual fling.  
    
    My other observation is that it strikes me as sort of amusing that you
    would expect someone to be mature by the age of 29.  Maturity doesn't
    depend on chronological age, and, even if it did, she's 29, not 65. 
    Twenty-nine may seem old to you, at 18, but to me, at 43, 29 seems
    quite young.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    also, I find some people can talk about emotions, and some can't.  It's
    an acquired skill, but depending on your upbringing (were emotions
    discussed at home, was it okay to have feelings, was it okay to express
    love), and your prior relationships, you may or may not be able to at
    all, or comfortably.
    
    It's something that cna be worked through with counseling, if it's seen
    to be a problem - like if I couldn't talk about emotions or express
    them, I might want to see a therapist to get some coaching or advice,
    or to help me work through any issues that may be stopping me, or I may
    read a self-help book or two.
    
    it's not something you can make her change, though.  if it makes you
    uncomfortable, and she doesn't see the problem with it, or doesn't see
    how to or seem to want to work on it to change it, there's really very
    little you can do.
    
    -Jody
    

    Yeah, love can and does hurt.  It comes with the territory.  What I
    have found is that one has to watch out for what one CALLS love.
    Sometimes infactuation can seem like love.  Love involves a complex
    set of emotions and just because something SEEMS like what one
    PERCEIVES as love doesn't mean it IS love.  I have found that when
    I was younger I would see someone I would fall instantly in 'LOVE'
    with, love at first sight and all that.  But you have to watch it
    because often that 'love' evaporates when put to the tests of a real
    relationship because it never was love in the first place, it just
    seemed like it.
    
    That leads to the definition of love.  I have to try and define what
    I believe love is if my above paragraph is to have any meaning.  Here
    goes the definition isn't easy.  Also it depends on whether your 
    talking about parental love, or romantic love, or brotherly love.
    But, in general they share the following characteristics except
    for the sexual part.
    
    IMO love has and has NOT the following characteristics:
    
    Love is not selfish.  Love wants whats best for the other person even
    at the expense of your own needs to some extent.  Love is forgiveness
    for the other persons shortcomings.  Love is not holding a grudge.
    Love is not keeping score of what the other person owes you.  Love
    is admiring the other person and to some extent a LITTLE bit of
    infactuation.  There is also a strong element of sexual attraction.
    Also, you must be willing to let the person go if thats what they
    want.
    
    If your thinking HEAVILY in terms of whats in it for you then I would
    tend to think the infactuation bit is a bit too heavy and I would
    question whether some of the other necessary elements of love were
    present in sufficient quantities to help the relationship last.
    
    Sexual attraction by ITSELF IMO does not constitute love.  Its simply
    sexual attraction which is fine as long as you don't kid yourself into
    thinking that by itself it constitutes love.
    
    Its easy to LABEL certain emotions such as sexual attraction and
    infactuation as love because thats how we PERCEIVE love to be at first.
    
    The people one reads about as 'loving someone so much she wouldn't let
    him go, she killed him instead'  Bull!  Thats not love, its selfish
    possessiveness.
    
    So good luck with this woman.  I agree with the others noters comments
    about age and the stage she is in in her life vs. yours etc.
    
    Jeff

I'll agree with the previous, a woman is not necessarily good at expressing
or even acknowledging her feelings.  

Some quick arithmetic.  A 29 year old woman leaving a 10 year marriage 
got married at 19.  Unless she did a lot of growing inside the marriage,
she could easily be a 29 year old teen-ager.  Not that I am throwing stones.
By some measures, I was a 45 year old toddler, and I won't hazard a guess
as to what I am now.  As a previous noter suggested, maturity does not
depend much on age.

All the women I know well enough to have an opinion about have some 
difficulty with their feelings.  Less than men, in my culture (middle-class,
middle-age white Americans), but still some difficulty.  And it varies a
lot among both men and women.  So there is a lot of overlap.

One thing that makes it confusing is that my culture puts different feelings
off limits for men and women.  I am impressed to see women dealing with 
very positively with feelings of fear or empathy.  So I may think they have
it all together.  And then they tell me that they cannot handle feelings
of anger or envy.

    re. 31-35
    
    Thank you all for your input it has help me remember things that I have
    already thought about somewhat. I do agree that she is still a teenager
    at heart because she got married so young, she doesn't have very much
    common sense for her age. I don't say 'her age' as being old or
    anything like that but there are some things that everybody should know
    by the time that they move out from home. There is no need for good
    lick  because I have already let her go so she can catch up on being a
    kid again, it was hard but I did it. 
    
    	No I don't think that she didn't love me or anything like that but
    I have thought of that awful thought and the only thing I could come up
    with is that she loved me at the time. The relationship wasn't even
    suposed to happen but we just kept on seeing each other all the time
    and thats were things went. 
    
    	I could still use some more advise if there is anymore out there I
    would greatly appretiate it.   THANK YOU ALL
    
    
                          JOHN

    What kind of advice do you want?  Whether 'we' think you should
    continue the relationship or what else?
    
    Here I am the expert... right.
    
    Jeff

>    	I could still use some more advise if there is anymore out there I
>    would greatly appretiate it.   THANK YOU ALL

You're welcome.  There's plenty of advice in the world, often too much.
A lot of it is worth just what you pay for it.

What would you like advice about?

    Ok.  Here's my advice.  If you really enjoy her company, and she'll
    still see you, then you may as well go for it.  But, don't expect it to
    lead to a serious relationship.  Just think of it as a day in the park. 
    Enjoy it for the moment, and don't let yourself fall in love, or have
    expectations.  Meanwhile, if you would like a longterm relationship,
    keep looking.  But, no reason why you can't date this other one in the
    meantime.  
    
    On the other hand, if she doesn't want to see you, even on a casual
    basis, forget about her.  You're young and there's millions of women
    out there, probably a lot of them younger and cuter than her.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re.36-39
    
    	I'm not thinking of getting back together with her
    because I lost alot of respect for her. But anyway the 
    things that I would like advise about from anybody is
    just life and other types of things like the things that
    you learned the hard way and wish that someone would have
    mensioned (sp?) something about it.
    
    	There's so much I would like to ask about but I don't
    know were to start. One question is how do you know if
    someone really does love you? Anyone can say it and act it
    but to really mean it is another thing. How do you meet the 
    nice girls? How do you really know she is a nice girl?
    
     Well I'll write more on Monday so you all enjoy your 
    weekend and don't party to much.
    
    
                               LATER    
                             JOHN

    See 19.34 for my words of wisdom and some of the things I have learned
    since you have asked.  "how do I know if she loves me?"  See .34  Look
    for the characteristics in HER mentioned in that entry.  I am almost
    50.... I have screwed up my share of relationships but learned from
    it too.  I came to some of the conclusions in .34 as a result of my
    successes and errors.  If there are any lessons I have learned
    which I consider of the upmost importance they are:
    
    Don't assume reality is either the way you THINK it is, or will be the
    way you WANT it to be.  Once you realize that you can change reality a
    LITTLE bit but that for the most part it will NOT bend for YOU you will
    be a long way toward 'growing up'.  Oh you can dream and change the
    things you can but once one realizes the above 'you' stop eating your
    heart out at the things you think you want but can never be and it 
    allows one to 'get down to business' and do the things that you CAN
    change and pay attention to the things that really count.  "Like?"
    Living things, family, friends, yourself, the current moment for
    what it offers.  VS.  excessive possessions, money for its own sake,
    keeping up with the Joneses', careers at the expense of family.
    
    I wouldn't have gotten on my soapbox, but you ASKED, so there it is.
    
    Jeff 
    
    
    
    "it sounds as if you have experienced the above?"  Yeah, I have.

    
    I have learned alot of things from what you all have said and from my
    own beleifs. Having such a relationship at my age I got to learn alot
    about myself and grow-up some too. 
    
    	One of the things that I learned about myself is that I don't want
    to have a fling here and there I need something possitive. Something
    that will be there when I wake up in the morning. I have learned to
    respect women instead of think of them as just a piece of meat on the
    table. I do realize that there are women out there that that is what
    they want to be (a piece of meat) but that is their choice and their
    choice alone. I have learned not to give everything up at once when you
    are getting into a relationship. 
    	I have learned that LOVE isn't always what it seems, sometimes it
    can be just a sexual attraction or just the fact that you don't know
    everything about someone and that can be attractive in itself. 
    	 I don't really know why I am telling you guys and ladies all of
    this but I think it is important that I say it or type it just to get
    it out and maybe I'll learn something by doing it too.
    	Well I have seen that alot of young people have gotten lost over
    the years in the way they are thinking. It's really hard to find a
    women that you could trust and/or believe. I'm not saying that all
    women lie or play with your heart on purpose because "ITS FUN", but
    there are women out there that do do that. It's scary. 
    	 I also learned that I have a habit of giving my heart away like
    candy and thats not right I can't do that. But atleast its obvious to
    me and I can see it. 
    
    	I THANK YOU ALL one more time because I want you to know that I do
    apprietiate the advise you have given me and welcome more if you would
    like to give it to me.  Its getting late so I need to close but, till
    next time.
    
    
    P.S 
    What does IMO STAND FOR?
    
                                          TALK WITH YA ALL LATER
    
                                    John Malloy

    re -1
    
    IMO - In My Opinion.
    
    regards,
    
    joyce

    John, IMO is also sort of a disclaimer.  By using it the writer is 
    acknowledging that it IS their opinion which I interpret as an
    implication of humbleness on the writers part. 
    
    You said it.  "Love is not always what it seems".  Thats what I was
    saying in .34.  Its an important thing to realize because I see so
    many people being hurt in the NAME of 'love' by others, and I don't
    mean the inevitable love hurts people have to deal with but the
    possessive 'love' that people use to justify delibretably hurting one
    another.  If you truely LOVE someone you DON'T want to hurt them... no
    matter what.
    
    Jeff

    OH, OK. 
    
    	Do you all work for DEC on the East Coast or something I 
    don't recognize any of your node names like COMET is ours here
    in Colorado Spring?
    	What city do you guys live in? I don't live in Colorado Springs
    but I live right out of it in Manitou Springs. Its very pretty out
    here with the mountains and all. I'm not from around these parts
    though I'm from the West Coast like Washington and Oregon, I didn't 
    like Cali. very much, just way to many crazy weirdo's(IMO).
    	Well I look forward to hearing from everone that has helped
    me and gave me the advise that they thought would help the most.
    	
    
    					LATER DAYS
    					
    						John Malloy

    I don't know about the others but I work out of NIO, (Salem, New
    Hampshire).
    
    Jeff

I'm going to try to resist the temptation to give advice.  Because you have
asked for it, I will try to explain why.

One reason is that the important stuff I know I cannot easily put into words.
When I try, it comes out so trite and simple-minded that I would have a hard
time taking it seriously.  It is the feelings that I have attached to this 
stuff, what my therapist calls the affective content, that make it important
to me.  And I am not a good enough writer to put these feelings into words.

I heard most of the words by the time I was 18, and I'd guess you have heard 
them too.  What has made the difference for me, what attached the feelings 
to the words, was living my way into them, or digging them out of my self.
I would not want to deny you that challenge, and that joy, even if I could.
So just live, and be aware, and in 30 years you may learn about half of
what you need to know, but it will be yours, in every sense.

If I could, I would give you the advice that will help you survive those 30 
years, with only the usual amount of pain and regret.  But I don't know
you well enough to tell what advice you need.  Life plays a trick on 
those who give and take advice.  The advice we take most easily, especially
when young, is exactly the advice we don't need.  I took two kinds of advice
when I was young:

	Be a man.  Hide your feelings.  Be independent.  Don't ask for
	help.  Don't get tied down.

	Be an intellectual.  Be different.  Out-think everybody.

This is probably good advice for somebody, but it was very bad advice for
me.  I never listened to a lot of advice which would have better suited me.

So I will wish you well, and will discuss any specific issue you want, but
suggest you travel on without the burden of my advice.

    re. 47
    
    	I do know what you mean, but I try not to take advise just as that
    but I try to put it to whats happening around me from my own opinion of
    what the advise meant. Sometimes I do take it wrong but it always works
    out sooner or later. You actually did give me some advise though. And I
    thank you for it. Sometimes advise comes in defferent shades.\
    
                                    John  %'}

a few weeks back i read this article on how different men are to women when
it comes to communication. in short, when discussing a problem, the guy point
of view tends more towards analyzing and solving it rationally, whilst she
is really looking for emotional feed-back, which is why the two, even though 
they talk to eachother, might not communicate at all!

and then i came across this article by dave barry, its quite hillarious and
just about sums it up! :-)


           <<< HYDRA::DISK_NOTES$LIBRARY:[000000]DAVE_BARRY.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -<  Dave Barry - Noted humorist  >-
================================================================================
Note 753.0        Men Need Lessons in Communicating With Women           1 reply
DPE::STARR "Crazy for tryin', and crazy for cryin'"  85 lines   9-JUN-1992 13:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Article 127 of clari.feature.dave_barry:
Subject: MEN NEED LESSONS IN COMMUNICATING WITH WOMEN
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 92 20:04:14 EDT
Lines: 80

DAVE BARRY
	Today's Topic For Guys is: Communicating With Women.
	If there's one thing that women find unsatisfactory about guys -- and
I base this conclusion on an extensive scientific study of the pile of
Cosmopolitan magazines where I get my hair cut -- it is that guys do not
communicate enough.
	This problem has arisen in my own personal relationship with my wife,
Beth. I'll be reading the newspaper, and the phone will ring; I'll
answer it, listen for 10 minutes, hang up, and resume reading. Finally
Beth will say: ``Who was that?''
	And I'll say: ``Phil Wonkerman's mom.''
	Phil is an old friend we haven't heard from in 17 years.
	And Beth will say, ``Well?''
	And I'll say, ``Well what?''
	And Beth will say, ``What did she SAY?''
	And I'll say, ``She said Phil is fine,'' making it clear by my tone
of voice that, although I do not wish to be rude, I AM trying to read
the newspaper here, and I happen to be right in the middle of an
important panel of ``Calvin and Hobbes.''
	But Beth, ignoring this, will say, ``That's ALL she said?''
	And she will not let up. She will continue to ask district-attorney-
style questions, forcing me to recount the conversation until she's
satisfied that she has the entire story, which is that Phil just got out
of prison after serving a sentence for a murder he committed when he
became a drug addict because of the guilt he felt when his wife died in
a freak submarine accident while Phil was having an affair with a nun,
but now he's all straightened out and has a good job as a trapeze artist
and is almost through with the surgical part of his sex change and just
became happily engaged to marry a prominent member of The New Kids On
The Block, so in other words he is fine, which is EXACTLY what I told
Beth in the first place, but is that enough? No. She wants to hear EVERY
SINGLE DETAIL.
	We have some good friends, Buzz and Libby, whom we see about twice a
year. When we get together, Beth and Libby always wind up in a
conversation, lasting several days, during which they discuss virtually
every significant event that has occurred in their lives and the lives
of those they care about, sharing their innermost feelings, analyzing
and probing, inevitably coming to a deeper understanding of each other,
and a strengthening of a cherished friendship. Whereas Buzz and I watch
the playoffs.
	This is not to say Buzz and I don't share our feelings. Sometimes we
get quite emotional.
	``That's not a FOUL??'' one of us will say.
	Or: ``You're telling me THAT'S NOT A FOUL???
	I don't mean to suggest that all we talk about is sports. We also
discuss, openly and without shame, what kind of pizza we need to order.
We have a fine time together, but we don't have heavy conversations, and
sometimes, after the visit is over, I'm surprised to learn -- from Beth,
who learned it from Libby -- that there has recently been some new
wrinkle in Buzz's life, such as that he now has an artificial leg.
	(For the record, Buzz does NOT have an artificial leg. At least he
didn't mention anything about it to me.)
	I have another good friend, Gene, who's going through major
developments in his life. Our families recently spent a weekend
together, during which Gene and I talked a lot and enjoyed each other's
company immensely. In that entire time, the most intimate personal
statement he made to me is that he has reached Level 24 of a video game
called ``Arkanoid.'' He has even seen the Evil Presence, although he
refused to tell me what it looks like. We're very close, but there is a
limit.
	I know what some of you are saying. You're saying my friends and I
are Neanderthals, and a lot of guys are different. This is true. A lot
of guys don't use words at ALL. They communicate entirely by nonverbal
methods, such as sharing bait.
	But my point, guys, is that you must communicate on a deeper level
with a woman, particularly if you are married to her. Open up. Don't
assume that she knows what you're thinking. This will be difficult for
guys at first, so it would help if you women would try to ``read between
the lines'' in determining what the guy is trying to communicate:
	GUY STATEMENT: ``Do we have any peanut butter?''
	INNER GUY MEANING: ``I hate my job.''
	GUY STATEMENT: ``Is this all we have? Crunchy?''
	INNER GUY MEANING: ``I'm not sure I want to stay married.''
	If both genders work together, you can have a happier, healthier
relationship, but the responsibility rests with you guys, who must
sincerely ... hey, guys, I'm TALKING to you here. Put down the sports
section, OK? HEY! GUYS!
	
	(C) 1992 THE MIAMI HERALD
	DISTRIBUTED BY TRIBUNE MEDIA SERVICES, INC.

    
    There's an excellent book on male/female communication, called either
    "Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus", or the other way around;
    sorry, can't remember author.
    
    Among other things, the book clearly explains why I can't ask for
    directions, particularly when my wife is in the car with me. I still
    can't ask for direction, but I feel a lot better understand the
    reason -- and my wife now knows that the worst possible thing she can
    do is suggest I pull into a gas station for help.
    

    How about 'Earth Girls are Eazy'.:)

    Hey guys, we're not soooo bad at all. Just talk to us.
    
    Birgit

    
    We can't  --  it's genetic.
    

There's an idea around that some of us have trouble talking about our feelings
because we don't know the words.

You may have seen a poster around Digital buildings which relates to this.  The
headline is "How do you feel?"  Underneath are 70 words for feelings, each with
an iconic face above it, expressing the feeling.

I got a copy by calling OmniHealth at 1-800-451-1834.  They asked me where I
worked, so I guess this is part of a service that Digital is contracting for.

It's neat I picked one up this morning.
Not that I need it. I thought it might help my daughter ;-)