Conference quark::mennotes

    	In something like that there isn't right or wrong. There are two
    questions for each of you. Can you change? Can you tolerate the other
    person not changing? If it is *that* sensitive a subject then you might
    have to guess at her likely answers. If you get too high a proportion
    of "no"s then you will just have to accept that it is a temporary
    relationship that will end when one of you gets sufficiently annoyed.
    
    	My wife will point out topless women on the local beaches, and we
    can discuss why they are or aren't attractive, but after 25 years of
    marriage she knows in whose bed I will end up that night.

    
    re:.0
    
    Strongly advise you to reach an accommodation before mini-skirts
    come back. :*)

    I was once cought looking, and the girlfriend at the time told me that
    so long as I am looking, not touching it is healthy. Its when I stop
    looking I, suposingly, either have an affair going or that I have
    changed sexual prefferences. Sooo! Vivala differences!:0) Look on in
    good health! Oh, the other reason that you might stop looking is that
    your over worked.......;)     
    
    
    
     raged. m

    RE:.1

   > 	My wife will point out topless women on the local beaches, and we
   > can discuss why they are or aren't attractive, but after 25 years of
   > marriage she knows in whose bed I will end up that night.

        Our wives could be sisters after 24 years mine points them out
    also.

    Joe

    I think it's possible to look without being obvious.  I think it's
    simply a courtesy to my date (or vice versa), to refrain from talking
    on and on about how attractive another person we see somewhere might
    be.  The same thing applies to making obvious gestures, such as turning
    around in the middle of a conversation to check out an attractive
    stranger.  My opinion is, learn to look without being obvious or
    commenting on it.  (I save my comments for when I'm out with my
    daughter or another woman.)
    
    Lorna
    

    I'm 37 never been married but will put my comments here anyway's.
    
    You should(if you are secure in your relationship)be able to look at
    any of Gods beautiful creatures and admire. It's what goes throught
    your mind that you want to experiance with that beautiful creature
    that is hard to control.I love looking at women and wondering how it
    would feel to do all the things that I am thinging about and with all
    the woman I want to do it with.
    
    Am I sex hungary or just normal.
    
    
    Love to love
    Charles

    RE .0
    
    A natural thing???? That is a good one. Maybe it goes
    back to survival of the species? You know, my mate could be
    dead any second now so I'd better line up another one
    just in case. ;)
    
    			-Jim-

I'll agree with .1 here.  You will find it easier to deal with problems like
this if you avoid words like right, wrong and should.  Talk about what is 
important to each of you, and what behavior you are willing to change in
yourself or accept in your partner.  If you can't find a middle ground, now
is probably the best time to find that out.

Personally, I try not to annoy the people I am with, just as a matter of
courtesy.  If people are annoyed by too many things, I don't spend much
time with them.  Most people I spend time with are not often annoyed or annoying.
There are a few exceptions, when we have agreed to accept our annoying and 
annoyance with mutual good humor.

My wife used to direct my attention to "plain blondes", her phrase for young 
women with beauty than character in their faces.  Over the years, she has 
stopped doing that, without saying anything about it.  I still look, but less 
obviously, and she tacitly accepts that.

One other thing.  If you two find it impossible to deal directly with this, 
you might want to step back and ask yourselves what is really going on.  Are
you using this to keep your distance?  Is she looking for a way to control
you?  Are you both talking about this to avoid something more important?  These
are difficult questions, but if the relationship is important enough, and there
is no easier resolution, you may want to confront them.

    I think it is normal to look ... for both sexes.  It's like anything
    else... to what degree.  I know men and woman who feel it's perfectly
    normal to look to the point of learing and will defend that it's "perfectly
    normal" to do so.  I've dated and known men who will constantly look at
    every woman who happens by them - during dinner, walks, dancing,
    driving (rear and side mirror).. who stop dead in conversations to
    "look".  I find this behavior to be very inconsiderate.  I think that
    many men would find this annoying if the woman they were seeing
    exhibited this behavior.  A friend of mine who dated a man who "looked"
    constantly decided to try this and he was furious.  The shoe was now on
    the other foot.                                                  

    I knew this guy next door. He has a girlfriend who dress's with as
    little fabric as possible in the summer. They walked into a gas station
    and he said that you could see all the guys turn and look at her. He
    said what was going thru their minds was 'turkey dinner'. Hence she has
    a nick name. Turkey Dinner.:) Just like in some sort of cartoon.:)
    

 Personally I think that all people like to look at others and do some
 comparisons. Men & Women like to look at other men & women for many reasons
 some of which I feel are

 Because they want to see if there is some physical attraction.

 Because they like doing a physical comparisons to their SO/Spouse

 Because they are are looking to see how other people look and thus
 compare themselves to others physicaly.

 Because we are social creatures who like to observe others of our species.

 All of this looking is how we learn and decide how we would like to be seen
 by others and how we would like to see our SO/Spouses. The problem arises
 when a person becomes critical of their loved one and is overcome by the
 physical desire of another. Dudley Moore in the movie 10 and his pursuit
 of Bo Derek is a good example of how physical attraction is only part of
 what makes a relationship last.

 Gawking and leering is disrespectful but glancing in the company of your
 SO/Spouse should not cause any ill feelings towards you on their part.

 Neil....
 
   

    I hate it when I generalize but...
    
    It's a sign of a person who is insecure.  (Girlfriend being
    annoyed)
    
    You have to decide:
    
    	Do you take her feelings into consideration, and make a concious
    	effort not to..	
    
    	or...
    
    	Pretend you don't care, and continue to have these scirmishes..
    
    One of the most frustrating times is when you're simply not focused
    on anyone in particular, and just your luck, there's a  ''vision' in
    the room in the direction of your gaze..  You discover only too late
    that you were once again, being the villian, and 'checking someone
    out..  Of course, you weren't but sorry, the jury is out...
    
    My wife has no problem at all with noticing someone who is attractive,
    even maybe a polite comment about it...  to her,  it's another thing 
    altogether to find myself tripping over my eye balls....   It's all 
    in how you look at it I guess...  Out of courtesy for her feelings,
    I try to be aware...
    
    /r
    

    
    
    
    
    	Re - Discussion
    
    	There are some schools of thought, quite exta-ordinary, that say
    the "okayness" of this is dependant upon the context with which you
    hold another person's image.
    
    	You can gaze upon another and hold them as only an image in your
    mind, perhaps going through your subjective impressions of their
    objective attributes, feeling what that does to you.
    
    	You can also gaze upon another and hold them only as a subject
    of your heart. Of course, whether some being is "attractive" or not
    falls out of the "picture" in this modality. Cause there isnt just an
    image.
    
    	Some say there's a "construction worker" in all of us. That brazen
    wolf-whistling "Hey! Pretty Momma!" stuff that comes up when looking at
    another being as an object of sexual desire. Like one might look at a
    bathing suit ad. Or a "Playboy" centerfold. Or a "Playgirl" centerfold.
    
    	Two modalities. One perhaps abusive to the target of your
    attention. Women I speak to know when they're being looked at in the
    "objectification mode". That "creepy feeling" that they get. The feeling
    that they are somehow a target, even if only of attention, because they 
    have certain physical qualities, or because they have certain physical 
    attribues at all.
    
    	Is it anyone's right to just hand that off to someone whom you dont
    have the foggies idea if it's okay with them, if they want it or not,
    or if they're perhaps sick and tired of it, cause it's been a constant
    thing they've had to deal with ever since they were 15?
    
    	Gazing at someone in objective scrutiny to the point where they and/or 
    others become aware of it just might be a profound abuse. You might as
    well just go up and give them a hug - without asking them if it's okay.
    It just might be in a sense "taking something" that - for all you know
    - they do not wish you to have.
    
    	This point of view can be extended to those who dress attractively.
    Who they wish to attract just may be trully "none of your business". To
    go ahead and *make* it your business, unqualified, well... 
    
    	Joe

	It's a natural thing to look, every does it, but I have the feeling
	from the base note that the behaviour described goes a little beyond
	looking. In my opinion it's also a question of the degree of 'looking' 
	which can be annoying:

	fleeting glance
	glance
	steady gaze
	stare

	Few people would object to a fleeting glance but if you're staring,
	and looking back up to three times !, your behaviour is bordering on 
	obnoxious. Consider also the other woman when she notices you looking 
	her over from head to toe ?

	- Paul.  	


		
	

    My wife always tells me I can look at the menu as long as I come home
    for dinner.
    
    Charles Mallo

    I'd have to go with the following:
    
    There's looking and then there's looking.  If looking more or less
    equates to staring, yes, it's rude and I'd find it annoying and
    insulting, too.  However, if your companion objects to the fact that
    you simply looked at someone (and I think folks can understand what I
    mean by "simply looked") of the opposite sex, well, there's a problem
    somewhere.
    
    I don't find it too complex of an issue, really.
    
    Cheers,
    
    kim

    I remember once, several years ago, I was standing in the hall at work
    talking with a male friend, and co-worker.  We were in the middle of a
    conversation when a young, new to the building, attractive woman walked
    by.  My friend turned right around, in the middle of our conversation,
    so that he could watch the young woman until she was out of site.  At
    the time, I laughed and said, "Yoohoo, over here!  As I was saying!!"
    and I ribbed him about what he did.  I think I said something like
    "Nothing like checking out the new girl!"  And, he protested, and I
    pointed out that he had turned completely around in the middle of our
    conversation to stare at her.  Well, I didn't really care because he
    was just a friend, and I didn't care who he looked at, I just thought
    it was funny.  But, if my date or boyfriend acted that way the evening
    would get pretty chilly fast.  Who needs it?  I don't think it's a
    matter of feeling secure.  I think it's a matter of common courtesy.  I
    don't like to spend time with men who are always looking at the door to
    see if somebody "better" is going to walk in.
    
    Lorna
    

    My boyfriend says, that to a certain extent he feels obligated to 
    "check-out" an attractive woman, because she most certainly went to
    a great deal of effort to produce "that certain look" of "come on- 'Look
    at me'" - so naturally he MUST look closely, and, of course, he should
    look pleased with her results.
    
    My response?
    
    "Well, that may be, but must you drool?"  :-) :-) :-)
    
    All kidding aside, I don't think there's anything really wrong in
    looking, but a little descretion would be respectful of my feelings.
    and since I certainly enjoy looking a other men, I think there is 
    nothing wrong in admiring good looks.

    Looking at attractive women is a natural impulse which doesn't get
    turned off like  light switch once you get married. Like I tell
    my wife of 21 years, "if I didn't look at attractive women, I would
    never have found you."

    Jim

    cute Jim :-)
    
    I agree, it is only offensive when it is patently obvious and the
    guy needs a bib to clean up after his drooling!  My advice to men
    in this regard is to learn how to be subtle :-)

    <---- or keep a handkerchief handy to mop up the spittle. :-).  
    
    Brian 

    <----or maybe wear something that covers yourself.;))

    nah, I'm NOT going to continue this :-)

    I havn't read through the other replies... just the basenote.
    
    To me it indicates she is insecure.  I think the looking is natural
    and harmless as long as no action follows the looking. I would try to
    be more descrete about looking when I was around her.  Also, I would
    try and reasure her as you have been doing, but the reassurance will
    probably be to no avail.
    
    Jeff

    ...and I thought I had the only man doing this....
    
    No, I also have a 'little' problem with this. I have a nice friend (not
    married yet) who really seems to love me. But when we went to a disco
    he always managed to stay one step behind me. I was wondering and later
    I found out that he was looking all around. So far I wouldn't have
    worried, I also like to look at pretty men....but....He even did this
    turning around while talking with me (as far as you can do this at such
    a place). The night was long and I started getting some funny feeling
    about this.
    So when we walked around I tried to let him walk in front of me. And
    what I saw wasn't that nice. I asked him why he does this when he goes
    out with ME and he answered kind of agressive 'mind your own business'.
    I guess I don't have to say that my evening was done....
    
    I tried to talk to him about this a few times later, but I never really
    got an answer that sounded somehow plausible to me. 
    
    Sorry, but a guy who undresses hundreds of other girls and then in the
    evening at home tells me that I'm the only one he loves when it's
    'bedtime' , sorry I feel somehow like an 'used object'.
    I know that I'm worth more.
    
    But I have to agree, a harmless look is o.k., why not, I'm not the only
    girl in universe.
    
    Birgit
    

    
    
    ... has anyone got the private telephonenumber of 'Booker'...
    I just want to have a closer look.....;*)
    
    Birgit

    I saw a bumper sticker this morning that reminded me of this note:
    
            "Unleashed is unloved"
    
    
    :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .28
    
    Dream on!  :^).
    
    fred();

    re: .29
    
    I know you'll find this hard to believe, but I think it's in reference
    to pets.
    
    tim
    

    re .30, still, I for one, found it to be an interesting comparison...
    
    Lorna
    

.31>  still, I for one, found it to be an interesting comparison...

The bumper sticker may reasonable advice for dog lovers, but I don't think
it applies to humans.

I want people who love me to give me a lot of freedom, and I try to treat 
those I love the same way.  

I don't want freedom to do what we both agree is wrong.  Or freedom to avoid 
the consequences of what I do.  I do want the freedom to behave badly, so that 
I can freely choose not to behave badly.

I try to give the same freedom to those I love.  Sometimes I fail because 
something is more important to me than I thought.  Or because I react too
quickly and too narrowly.  Or because we disagree on right and wrong or
natural consequences of actions.


Anyway, I don't want anybody limiting me to prove their love.

    re .32, did you miss the smiley faces I entered?  I was joking.
    
    Lorna
    

    .25, Your boyfriend is extremely rude !!!   "Mind you own business"
    is definately an evening killer.
    
       I believe an occasional glance while out with a date is fine.
    
    But a constant swivel-head is not.  Even though sometimes it's hard
    
    not to stare...I personaly try not to.  
    
    
    Jack
    

    Hello One and All,
    
    I am not married (anymore), but I have this problem myself.  I HATE it
    and try to stop myself.  When the conversation is going good, whether
    it's everyday stuff or problem solving or intimate ( I use this term to
    cover a wide variety of topics) I dont "wonder".  I consider it rude
    and it kind of seems like one is not interested in one's company.  That
    is not ALWAYS the case.  Also, if I am really relaxed and comfortable
    with my companion I USUALLY don't "wonder". 
    
    By the way it is not ONLY men that do this.  I have had dates that do
    this.  I guess I can be boring.
    
     b
         

    
    I would have to say that it is rude to stare and break any kind of
    converstion with whoever your with to stare at a person of opposite
    sex, or even same sex. I am no saint and have looked at other women
    when I was with my significant other. But when I have looked it was
    more of a casual glance not a stare. I have also asked my wife what
    she thinks of someones hair, clothing, etc.. 
    	I do get annoyed when anyone is judged by appearence alone. It 
    might be interesting to look at but get real, appearences are highly
    decieving. I have known a few people in my time that look real nice
    until they talk. I myself am not big on dressing up and making myself
    pretty (just an expression) unless I have a formal meeting to attend.
    
    	Final note. How would it feel if the person your with, male or
    female, starts staring at other people and compare them to you. Or 
    picture yourself in a caged zoo and people coming to look at you and
    making comments.
    
    Just some thoughts,
    ZEEK 

    
    
      That is the the key. A casual glance vs. a stare. My SO looks at 
    others and that doesent bother me. I do the same. As she says "All 
    guys do." I do think it would be very rude to stare at someone. Of
    course I think that its rude no matter if you are with your SO or not.
    
    
    
                                                *B*

    I think its normal to look, and for the record people look at
    many things other then the opposite sex.
    
    I think that anyone that says he/she doesn't is either a saint or
    lying, or blind. And I never meet a saint yet. (-;
    
    There is a BIG difference between beeing with someone and just 
    looking at someone... anyway if women find it so wrong how come
    they come out dressed to kill "even the married ones" (-;
    
    Should men let the $ Trillions women spend getting beautifull go
    to waste... !!! (-;
    
    That is in general, in specific cases its just a case of how 
    much your are willing to change/tolerate your partner's behaviour,
    whatever it is. There is no magic solutions.
    
    Gil

    This subject reminds me of the Diet Pepsi Commercial. The one where all
    the women in the office meet at the windows at 11:30 to oogle at the
    construction hunk. My wife gets jealous every time I look at another
    women, yet she looses all senses when that commercial comes on. 
    
    Sexual jealously of this type is common and exists in some degree in
    everyone. I don't think that this kind of jealously is natural or
    healthy. This type of jealously (not wanting your spouse to look at the
    opposite sex) stems from insecurity or self-esteem problems. If this is
    a problem in a marriage or any love relationship the problem is deeper
    then just a little harmless oogling.

Hah!  That was actually a Diet Coke commercial!  This just proves that if you
make the ad TOO memorable, people will forget what product it was
advertising!

					Steve

    
    
      Like the "dont treat women as sex objects" line. It carries no weight
    with me since they do the exact same thing.
      I was at a male strip club. (I was driving a bunch of women for a
    party.) When I went inside for the "Its time to go" speech, I saw how it
    really is. About 90% of the women (the ones I had brought included) were 
    jumping up and down and screaming their heads off. (I was pretty dam 
    funny) They were yelling "bring that A$$ over here! YE HA!  and other 
    things that I cant mention here.
      The last time I was in a womens strip club (a friend of mine's batchelor
    party) ((no really!)) Most of the men were very calm, and just watching
    the show. There were a few wild men jumping around who had been drinking 
    but that was a small percentage. It was a very calm scene.
     Now who was being treated as an object? (seems to be the old double
    edged sword that is only sharp on one side) ;)
                                         
                                                *B*

    As far as looking is concerned, I feel it has a lot to do with the self
    image of the person who is on the receiving end of their SO doing the
    looking.
    
    Back when I was married, I actually didn't mind at all when my husband
    looked at other women; in fact, sometimes I even pointed them out (on
    TV or in public places) to see what his thoughts were.  At the time I
    was doing this though, I was in incredible shape and feeling really
    good about myself so his positive reactions toward how other women
    looked never bothered me in the least.  BUT, when I put on weight and
    was disgusted with myself, I got upset when he would comment on another
    woman's looks.
    
    I find that as long as I am confident in my own appearance it doesn't
    affect me at all when a guy I am dating looks at other women.  However,
    I do have one friend who makes his looking so blatently obvious that he
    will constantly interrupt a conversation to point out a woman he feels
    is attractive, or stop making eye contact to dart his eyes around the
    room, and it really annoys me.  That, in my opinion, is rude.
    
    -Roberta
    
    
    

    I will agree.

    I don't know how he could 'admire' young women without knowing it.  I
    wonder if you are misinterpreting his looking?
    
    Jeff

    My wife often says to me that she would feel insulted if I *DIDN'T*
    look, as long as I do so in a non-obvious fashion (no drooling or
    wolf-whistles, please) and that I "don't touch".  Being the mostly
    oblivious guy that I am, she has occasionally pointed out to me a
    particularly attractive woman nearby (usually if said woman is dressed in a
    provocative or unusual fashion) and I found that I hadn't noticed her at
    all.
    
    A couple of days ago the "Arlo and Janis" comic strip had a scene where
    Janis says to Arlo (her husband) "Don't you think the woman on the
    cover of this magazine is pretty?"  Arlo thinks about the possible
    responses:
    
    	A. She's not as pretty as you.
    	B. Of course, that's why she's on the cover of a fashion magazine!
    	C. Sure, if you like the emaciated look with big hair.
    	D. What woman?  What magazine?
    
    He then chooses D.....
    
    					Steve

    
    I told my wife that when I stop looking at women is when she'd better
    start worrying ;^).
    fred();

    
    Why?

    My friend who's 72 now said when he stops looking, he'll be dead. I
    think that works well as a general rule.
    
    My suggestion: expect it, don't take it personal, accept it (OK, to a
    point - after 3 seconds it's more staring than "looking").
    
    Some men, of course, will lobby for "appreciation of the beauty". Um,
    that's a way to rationalize a 5 or 10 minute "stare". I'd say then it's
    fair to be worried.
    
    jeff

    re .48
    
    >    Why?
    
    Because that's probably when I'll stop looking at her too ;^).
    
    fred();

    I think the point when looking becomes inappropriate is when 'somebody'
    is about to become uncomfortable over the looking because the gaze is
    held too long, or the person your with may become offended.
    
    Jeff

We've been married for almost 31 years. I can say (to my wife), "gee,
that's a pretty girl" as easily as "that's a pretty flower" -- or, for
that matter, "That's a good-looking guy."

She's secure, apparently, and doesn't think that my appreciation for
beauty is threatening.

Now, if I were to stare, going glassy-eyed into fantasy, that might be a
different story.

Art