Conference quark::mennotes

    A popular black comedy show depliced a couple of blacks dressed up in a
    tartan, dancing to back pipes, and dumping on many who are Scotish. If
    the Scotish were to do a black face in the same light. There would be a
    law suit against them.
    
    Insofar as men as portraid as bunglin boobs to our smarter than average
    women. Yes, I will agree with you. It will take allot to over come this
    sort of sexist humor in lew of the fact that mens rights groups are not
    strong enough to chalange the courts and the system against this sort
    of stereo typing. Someday...... sooner than they wish though....
    
    

I don't have a problem with discussing specific commercials by name.

				Steve

>   commercial I heard this morning while driving in got my attention... I

>   I have been getting more and more disgusted with the depiction of men
>   on TV and radio.  In particular, I am referring to commercials where
>   the man is shown as the idiot, the incompetent, and the moron.

Well, they partially accomplished their goal, namely to get your attention.
Name brand or product recognition at any price may be the marketing strategy 
here. In other words they don't really care about agitating you, and their hope
is that after getting your attention time and time again, when time comes for
you to make a choice, you won't be thinking about the negative connotations of 
their advertising at the time, so you'll reach for the "familiar" product vs. a 
generic or unknown. Or maybe you'll go for the "beah guyz beah" instead of the 
Zima.

>   So... how do the rest of you feel?   Do you like these commercials,
>   and see them as nothing more that idle (and perhaps badly written)
>   humor?   Do you care?   Do you think that I am being oversensitive
>   about this?   If you disapprove of these attitudes, do you take any
>   action to express this?   Do you write to stations, or manufacturers,
>   or anybody else about this?

I think it's a poor choice to let commercials in general, and especially the
male-bashing ones, affect how I spend my money OR time. Rarely are they a 
public service announcement alerting you to the benefits of better living or a 
good value. So, I guess I do care, and I express that by avoiding products and
services advertised like this. Why don't I bother to write? IMHO, that would
be doing these companies a favor - that's right, companies pay big $$ to market
their products, and to determine the success of their campaigns. So why give
them the feedback for free? They don't pay me to tell them how to run their
business, so screw 'em. I'll just turn the channel and take my money elsewhere.
If everyone did this, they'd be a lot less successful.

FWIW,

JB

re: .3    BUSY::BUSY::BELLIVEAU

>   Well, they partially accomplished their goal, namely to get your
>   attention.

   That they did, yes.  
   
   Since Steve doesn't mind referring to specific commercials, the one I
   heard this morning was for, of all things, Pheasant Lane Mall, in New
   Hampshire.  It wasn't for any particular store, but was apparently for
   the whole mall.


>   I think it's a poor choice to let commercials in general, and
>   especially the male-bashing ones, affect how I spend my money OR time.

   Agreed.  In my case, I live in Stow, MA, and most often try to give my
   business to local vendors anyway, but I still found their commercial
   in bad taste.
   

   Do you really think that companies don't listen to letters that come
   in for stuff like this?  I thought that they did, but maybe I'm just
   being naive... 
   
   If I were to write a letter to the mall [and to the radio station who
   played that commercial] and say something like this:
   
     I heard your commercial "xxx", on radio station "xxx", and I found
     it to be in bad taste because of  [some explanation like the one
     I've tried to offer here].  If you continue to promote these
     attitudes through your commercials, I will make sure that I never
     listen to that radio station, nor spend any money in your stores,
     and I will be sure to explain my reasons to anybody who asks me why.

   would it really be ignored?  
   
>   ... If everyone did this [shop elsewhere], they'd be a lot less
>   successful.

   True enough, yes.   But is that really likely to happen?  My first
   answer is 'probably not', but I really don't know...   
   
   How long were women's groups complaining about the negative
   stereotyping of women before it really made a difference to stuff like
   this?  
   
   And if we just ignore it, isn't that an implicit acceptance of the
   messages they present?
   
   To be perfectly honest, I really don't care all that much what the
   mall's advertising firm thinks about men, and I don't even know if I
   care enough about the whole issue to make a big deal about it.  On the
   other hand, the issue has been stewing around in my mind for some
   time, and so I guess I'm starting to get to the point where I want to
   try to make a difference to some of this stuff.
   
   Maybe they finally hit a 'hot button' for me... like most everybody
   here, I take my responsibilities as a father and husband seriously... I
   find it distasteful to find myself being lumped together with a bunch
   of commercial/TV morons simply because I'm male...

   Just wondering,
   
   - Tom

    
    I've been irritated by this hypocritical ^%$# for years.  If anyone
    else depicted black men in the light as "Family Matters" or "Fresh
    Prince", they wouldn't be on the air the next weak.  I absolutely
    cannot stand Erkel (sp).  I have to change the channel or leave the 
    room whenever he comes on.  

    As far as the furniture commercial goes, since most furniture is
    bought by women, they probably think it is a good idea to try to
    massage the egos of those women and tell them how smart they are
    by shopping their store.  Which, if you look at it in that light,
    is really an insult to women.

    fred();

    It was Erkel who was putting down folks who are Scotish. And if there
    was someone doing a black face of him. I rather doubt that the gag
    would not go over well at all.
    
    Brookside Hospitals and their comersh showing men, costantly blown off,
    as the rasputin, drunkard is on of my hotpoints. I have seen women so
    drunk they could not find their tushs with either hand or both.

    George, statistically, two thirds of all alcoholics ARE men.
    
    					andrew

    
    re .7
    
    Which means that 1/3 are women.  Whereas 100% of the alcoholics
    depicted on tv are men.  And 100% of the slobbering brutes depicted
    are men.  Can you say slanted?
    
    fred();

    > Whereas 100% of the alcoholics depicted on tv are men.
    
    I can think of two female alcoholics on tv in recent years without
    trying very hard (the mayor played by Denise Crosby in Key West, and
    Alison on Melrose Place) and I don't watch much tv.
    
    DougO

    2/3 of all *admitted* alcoholics are men.  There is no evidence to
    support a supposition that men are more prone to alcoholism than women
    - merely that they're more likely to admit it...
    

    ...and, the new sitcom Cybil depicts Cybil Shepard and her best friend
    as pretty good boozers as well.  Both times I have surfed past, there
    was a lot of alcohol present.  

re: .4

>   Do you really think that companies don't listen to letters that come
>   in for stuff like this?  I thought that they did, but maybe I'm just
>   being naive... 

No, I think that if you reached the right person, ie. someone who's smart enough
to know that their future is impacted by the company's future - they will 
listen. Don't be suprised if there are lot of people (who don't care) playing
defense for them, though. The 'right' person will appreciate your feedback.

>>   ... If everyone did this [shop elsewhere], they'd be a lot less
>>   successful.
>
>   True enough, yes.   But is that really likely to happen?  My first
>   answer is 'probably not', but I really don't know...   

I would agree. They are doing it, because it is profitable for them to continue,
and they will continue until it isn't.

>   And if we just ignore it, isn't that an implicit acceptance of the
>   messages they present?

Yup. If we buy their products anyway, we are in fact, funding this behavior.

JB

    Another favorite one is where men and women compete to have clean
    cloths. Men always look like they have not a clue of seperations of
    colors and whites and darks from each other.... And of course, she
    always has the best detergent, the cleanest cloths... And he always has
    mud.... 

    more of the same are the rash of movies where there is a baseball team,
    football team. And they are minor children. And the dead ringer is
    always some little girl..... And all the boys look like they don't know
    which end of a baseball bat to use and why they were those funny
    plastic thingies over the tops of the heads in football.

    
    Was an article on Evening News last night (I don't recall which
    channel) about the hubub over Marsha Clark's (OJ prosecutor) husband
    wanting custody of the children based on the fact that Ms. Clark
    is never home to care for them.  Part of the article was a a woman
    supposedly in NOW headquarters (several NOW signs arranged prominently
    behind her in the shot).  For her, never mind that the children
    may well be better off with the father.  All that mattered to her
    was that they were considering taking the children from the _mother_.
    Apparently this is NOW's idea of _equality_.

    fred()

    And for the same reason men have been denied custody. Peroid. Men are
    not nurturers, wadge earners..... Welp... With 127 plus hours of
    overtime... She certainly is bringing home the bacon. But, there isn't
    any money. Just comp time.... I donno. I kinda think that there might
    be a plug for the store that is putting the cloths on her back too.
    
    Get that prime time stuff in to push the products. Freek the fair and
    just trial stuff.

    
    Re: 1 & most of the replies.
    
    .> men are not idiots who know nothing about design or taste.
    who do they think is designing the furniture and homes or the 
    clothes that the women wear????
    the only thing we can't do as men is have a baby! that's all!
    
    right-on baby- right-on!
    
    Bob

    There is also the ad where an entire office of women stop at 11:30 to
    watch a male worker take a break and drink a soda...

    what's wrong with furniture that has duct tape on it?
    
    ed

    Who do you think writes these ads you hate so much?
    
    				Steve

    
    
    Fred,  you didn't mention the rest of it. They also inicated that 
        Marsha Clark is trying to get an additional $500.00 a month 
        from her ex-husband for child support, but this is due to her 
        huge credit card bills for her $40000.00 teeth work and expensive
        suits to wear at the trail.  It was also mentioned that she makes
        $92,000/year while the poor husband makes only $52,000/year
        yet she is asking for more money from him. 
    
    Shaw

    
    If anyone was watching the news last night(Tuesday) at 7:00PM,
    A woman reporter was commenting on fathers getting custody more 
    often these day. In the report she commented that when fathers 
    try for custody they ***get custody over 50% of the time***.
    Maybe she was referring to a study done by the National Association 
    for Women. I have heard that study's show that when fathers try for
    custody they get it 12.5% of the time.  She went on to say that, overall
    fathers get custody 10% of the time because the rest of the time
    (quote) "FATHERS DON'T WANT CUSTODY". Obviously she has not talked to
    many fathers because that is not the case. Most fathers DO want custody 
    but feel it is useless to try because of the bias against men in the
    courts.  She should talk to men more!   
       This is just a typical example of how gender issues are
    misrepresented in the media by women.   I consider this a form of 
    male bashing. It gets nausiating sometimes.
    By the way, letters do make a difference, please WRITE-WRITE-WRITE.
                                                    Bill
      

    
>    A woman reporter was commenting on fathers getting custody more 
>    often these day. In the report she commented that when fathers 
>    try for custody they ***get custody over 50% of the time***.
    
    Possible true given a slimmy presentation of data.  In this week's
    NEWSWEEK they quoted the following stats.
    
    In California when the male seeks custody (numbers from memmory)
    
    * the women gets custody 45% of the time
    * the man gets custody 15% of the time
    * joint custody is awarded 40% of the time
    
    So it is true the male gets custody 55% of the time ... but then again
    the women gets custody 85% of the time by that definition (assuming she
    was referencing sole *or* joint custody).
    
    Greg
    

    
    One thing you have to be careful of.  There is Shared Custody where
    kids split time with parents, and there's Joint Legal Custody where
    on paper it looks like both parents share custody, but in reality
    there is a "primarey care giver" who actually has actual custody.
    The Joint Custody gives you access to  medical records and school
    records etc that you wouldn't have under Sole Custody, but little
    else, and a lot of places will try to pass that off as men getting
    custody.
    
    fred();

    
    
    Is this going to get into a custody battle note, again.
    lets hear some more thoughts on tv/radio male "bashing"
    come on guys, let it out!
    
    

    My advice to any man that allows male "bashing" to upset him is simple.
    Get a spine.
    You should laugh at these attempts to wound your manhood.
    Damn pansies!

    
    re .26

    >   My advice to any man that allows male "bashing" to upset him is
    >    simple.
    >    Get a spine.
    >    You should laugh at these attempts to wound your manhood.
    >    Damn pansies!

    Such rhetoric against nearly any other identifiable group could well
    land you in personnel.  However, since you have obviously never
    seen the inside of a divorce court (yet) (assuming your male), I'll 
    let it go this time.

    That's why men (and their children) find themselves in the position 
    that they're in now. They've laughed this *&^% off for too long.  
    
    fred();

    
    
    	What does the inside of a divorce court have to do with duct tape
    	on the furniture?
    
    	

  <<  lets hear some more thoughts on tv/radio male "bashing"
  <<  come on guys, let it out!

Personally, I could careless...  The days we let some half wits
in advertising distract our attention from the REAL issues in life 
(like da sports scores, and what kind a lawn mo-waa do we buy...) is the 
day we'll need to be put on prosac...


:)

    >What does the inside of a divorce court have to do with duct tape on
    the furniture?
    
    Hey! Guys have found themselves facing oppoising councle for simple-ton
    things like this. Women have divorced men because they don't like the
    color of the house they painted, duct tape on furniture, and/or
    snooring.... Life in the love lane I guess...
    
    Insofar as the pansey coment. Perhaps the spine is getting broken over
    some stupid things. And very basic reasons why this string is getting
    the heat. 

    
    re .28
    
    >	What does the inside of a divorce court have to do with duct tape
    >   on the furniture?
    
    Because it's what goes on in divorce court that makes men get used to
    liking duct tape on furniture.  Providing, of course, that he has
    any furniture left to put duct tape on.
    
    fred();

    
>Personally, I could careless...  The days we let some half wits
>in advertising distract our attention from the REAL issues in life 
>(like da sports scores, and what kind a lawn mo-waa do we buy...) is the 
>day we'll need to be put on prosac...

    I know you meant it as a joke, but this is exactly what is happening.
    Is called "The Big Lie".  Say it loud enough over and over enough times
    and people start to believe it's true.  You know it's not true, I know
    it's not true, but.....as they say, preception is everything.
    
    fred()

    Many men are tossed into the streets with nothing more than a tooth
    brush and a write from the courts to vacate the premis, "NOW". 
    
    Insofar as custody, and men getting custody. As in men asking for
    custody getting custody... GEEEZE Louise!@! Someone smoking the finest
    blend of weed!:) For I have written in these files the horras of men
    fighting for custody and loosing big and fast. And many have not seen
    their kids since day one they were under a court order to leave the
    marrital home because of what ever trump up. 

    
    
    re. 26>>> What the h*ll is a pansy? Sounds like something out of the 
    50's.   

    Its a kick in the pants to make men hunker down and tow the line.

    
    .35
    thanks but I still don't get it? are they alluding to another word?
    
    what an antiquated vocabulary.............
    
    I still say men can do anything....except,,,,,give birth...
    BR

    
    re .34
    
>   re. 26>>> What the h*ll is a pansy? Sounds like something out of the 
>    50's.   
    
    A pansy is a type of small, delicate flower. That is, a weekling.
    
    fred();

    
    .21
    
    i was shocked when i read the paper and saw that marcia clark had asked
    the court for increased support from her ex-husband and listed one of
    the reasons as having to spend $1500. for (5) new suits!  if a woman
    making $92,000. a year - a lawyer - feels comfortable asking a court
    for _more_ money from someone making roughly half of what she does, it 
    pretty much says that the system is so broke that fixing it is unlikely.
    it needs to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up.  pathetic.
    
    bill
    
    

	I'm with you !  I would also add this: It really says something that
	a person like Marcia Clark can petion the court for an increase in
	Child Support and list as a reason her need to spend money on new 
	suits but beyond that could she face her children and tell them the
	same thing and feel no guilt ?  I couldn't.  

	By the way it doesn't matter if it's a man or a woman.  It's wrong, 
	period.  
	

	Chuck

    Has anybody heard how Marsha came out in court?  I haven't heard
    anything.  I assume she must have retained custody, otherwise we'd
    have been hearing the "equal rights" groups screaming about it on
    the news 10 times a day.

    fred()

The case is still ongoing.

		Steve

    re: what is a pansy -
    actually it is a very hardy flower, not weak at all, blossoms from
    early spring (here in New Englans, anyway) until late fall.
    PW

    <<I know you meant it as a joke, but this is exactly what is happening.
    <<Is called "The Big Lie".  Say it loud enough over and over enough times
    <<and people start to believe it's true.  You know it's not true, I know
    <<it's not true, but.....as they say, preception is everything.
    <<
    <<fred()


Look at it from my point of view Fred..

I got two teenagers 'coming of age'  one is doing o.k.  the other is
a handfull..

I've got a father in a nursing home with enough Alzhiemer's in his system
to make the entire city of Worcestor forget what day it is..

I've got a mother who's totally incapable of thinking for herself, making
a decision, (dad took care of THAT stuff) or even driving her car to the 
'home to see her husband

I got a mortgage payment going from $500 to $1,000 dollars a month, (long
story)

and we're looking at the rumors of another 20,000 people getting let go
at Dec...  I probably WON'T be here when that happens, likely,
neither will many of use reading this note right now...


....  Quite frankly,, I could give a shit less about some half wit 
      comercial!!!!

This time,, I'm dead serious...

    Gee.... .43 sounds like a bad joke....
    
    Dear Abey,
    
    I am seeing a woman who is out on parol for smothering her six month
    old. I have two brothers in the big house for armed robbery. One on
    death row. I have a sister in the home for the criminally insane. My
    mom is one of the states most proficent forgers. I have a record for
    shoplifting... And now, I have a brother who works for Dec.... 
    
    Should I tell my girlfriend about my brother who works for Dec?
    
    Signed Confused.

      <<Gee.... .43 sounds like a bad joke....


not....

    Add Butthead and Beavis as well as the 'brothers grunt'.

    This is a follow up of my note re:22.
    
    The name of the Female reporter who said---"90% of men don't want custody
    of their children"--- is Bettsy Rollins, on the Channel 7 evening News 
    Sadly, for our children it is a gross misrepresentation of that issue!
    
    It is interesting that most of the respondents in this string are
    apathetic about "male bashing" in the media. I guess thats why male
    bashing is so common. We let them get away with it.
      I think men become more sensitive to gender issues when they
    are in the courtroom fighting to see their children after a divorce.
    
      That judge who --won't-- stop your ex from moving across the country
    with your children, will jail you (fathers) for not paying child support.
      That same judge will also support public humiliation of fathers who don't
    pay child support.
    
      You can bet your apathetic rearend guys, that High profile media types
    like Bettsy Rollins have some influence on the opinions of that judge I
    mentioned above and the public in general!
      Maybe some of you can realize how devious and malicious Bettsy
    Rollins is when she says over nationwide TV --90% of fathers don't want
    custody of their children--.
                                                  Bill.
    
      
      

    Bill,
    Betsey want her ratings to increase to the point that someday she can
    have her own talk show like Ophra. Right Doug0!:0)
    
    

    don't know her, George.
    
    DougO

Betsy.

    Betsy it is;  Thankyou
                                   Bill

    Gee DougO! She said she knew you!:)
    
    

    
    
    The reason for these ads are because, women control the checkbooks in
    most of the families.
    
    
    Mike