Conference quark::mennotes

    I doubt you can have a May-December romance!  With everybody happy!
    
    If it is a real romance, then there will be real sadness when it is
    over.  If it is not a real romance, then what is it and what exactly is
    the value?
    
                            patricia

    
    
    
    that is true in most relationships too.
    
    
    
    Bob
    

>What's wrong with May-December romances?
    
December.   

    In an ethical sense, nothing!
    
    There are times in our life when we are not ready for a full
    committment to a relationship.  We can learn and grow in a temporary
    relationship.  I assume that both partners know up front that it is a
    temporary relationship.
    
    But there is a sadness when any relationship is over.  I personally
    believe that commitment to a lifelong partner is the ideal.  There may
    be times when we are not ready for that commitment and therefore get
    into less than fully committed relationships.  It is healthy to know
    when we are not ready for full committment.
    
    Ultimately though, I believe that life is enhanced by making that
    committment.
    
    I am forever a romantic.
    
                                 Patricia

Um, I think some people aren't familiar with the idiom "May-December romance."
It doesn't mean a romance that lasts 7 or 8 months.  It means a romance
between a young person and an old person.

    
    that's what I meant. #5    thanks.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    BR
    

>Um, I think some people aren't familiar with the idiom "May-December romance."
>It doesn't mean a romance that lasts 7 or 8 months.  It means a romance
>between a young person and an old person.

I didn't know what that meant.

Anyway, I thought there were two notes covering this already.

    Peter:
    
    The last note on this subject was a personal one, with a specific
    person asking for advice/feedback/suggestions, this one is a generic
    note. (but I liked your answer, I had never heard of the saying
    either).
    
Re: back to the topic:
        
    Theoretically (as with Physics, we make an *awful* lot of assumptions
    here), I guess there's nothing "wrong" with a may-dec romance. If, both
    parties are mutually aggreeable and understanding from the onset of the
    expectations, maybe it is do-able.
    
    The fact is, that many times one or the other has *very* different
    expectations (whether talked about or not, whether realistic or not). I
    don't know many people who can have *casual* dating relationships for
    too long. *Most* of the people I know, if not *all*, end up coming to a
    decision point at the 6 month stage or sooner "Is this someone I want
    to be with *forever*?". 
    
    If human beings were entirely rational, logical (a la' Mr. Spock),
    maybe it would be more plausible and possible. But they ain't. The
    reality is, we have to deal with these sticky, uncomfortable "things"
    called emotions in ourselves and others.
    
    Now, I have *totally* ignored the age issue (since I assume that wasn't
    what you were asking about), but you gotta wonder if someone 10 or 20
    years your senior shares the same value system and/or goals. Again,
    *most* of the people I've ever met were pretty unformed (maturity-
    wise) when they were 18 (even 25 for that matter). 
    
    My theory (may as well continue) is that "adulthood" doesn't really get
    rolling till 25. At that time, people are typically finished with
    school, settling into the "work-a-day-world" and realizing that they're
    no longer kids. If they are lucky enough to have grown up in a solid,
    supportive family system, there values have been tested and they *may*
    be solid in them by now and clear about "who they are". 
    
    After 30 yrs old, I figure most people have a sense of who they are,
    albeit tentative for some. Those who don't probably have a miserable
    time. I think of my friends who married in their early 20's and now
    have children (read that: committments) in their 30's. Many of them
    didn't have/take the time to find out "who they are" and were not solid
    on it before they got married and had kids. That's really sad.
    
    The difference between an 18 year old and a 28 year old is probably
    a lot more than the difference between a 28 year old and a 38 year old.
    I figure, the older (and presumably more mature) you get, the more
    things start to equalize. But, then again, values and goals are always
    changing throughout our life developmental history.
        
    Yeah, yeah, I generalized all over the place, and somebody will know someone
    or maybe two, that *don't* fit into my scenario. But, for the most part,
    isn't this true? 
    
jeff    
    

Jeff,


> If human beings were entirely rational, logical (a la' Mr. Spock),

Wouldn't that be boring! It's such an unappealing thought.

I think it is when there are incompatibilities between people that 
relationships become unworkable. Age differnce might not in itself be 
an incompatibility but it may lead to many. Like the culture of the sixties 
and seventies being so different. The stamina may be incompatible. Emotional
maturity is another thing that might differ.

Anyway, I don't think it's the age difference itself that leads to problems.
It may be an indication that imcompatibilities may be there.

Love does not conquer all.

Peter.

    re. 9  
    
    	right on!  I agree.
    	if you have to analyze everything & put all that thought
    	it becomes so cold, take chances and go by your heart on
    	some things.
    
    
    	Bob

    On some things thou you have to let your conscience rule your heart.
    
    Again I agree it is not the age difference itself but the life cycle
    implications.
    
    A mature person should not be taking advantage of an immature person.
    An adult should not be taking advantage of a child.
    
    A person less than somewhere between 22-25 does not have the maturity
    to decide that the obvious does not matter.  If that person falls in
    love with someone their own age, then they will grow up together and at
    least have a chance to mature together and continue to grow in love.
    
    If someone less than that falls in love with someone considerable
    older, then the younger is going to eventually mature and miss out on a
    lot of important development milestones to continue the relationship. 
    A person younger than the above does not have the maturity, life
    experiences etc to understand what they are giving up or being in the
    position to do so.
    
    Of course, I would also ask, why would a mature grown person want to
    have a committed long term relationship with someone young and
    immature.  I would make the assumption(perhaps incorrectly) that it
    reflects a lack of maturity on the older persons part as well.  Then I
    would guess that the younger person will eventually grow up while the
    older person may remain immature forever.
    
                                    Patricia

    Pat:
    
    I think there's a *big* difference between a long-term, committed
    relationship with someone and a mutually-agreed-upon just-for-fun
    relationship (MAUJFF). Assuming both parties can agree on the MAUJFF, I
    think it could be just that, a lot of fun and noone gets harmed.
    
    I also take issue with the concept of "falling in love". If you've read
    Scott Peck's book "Road Less Travelled", I agree with his theory on
    that. It's funny to hear it talked about like some helpless process,
    kinda like you have no control. Is that a *true* love relationship? Not
    in my opinion, lust maybe (and who's to say that's "wrong", not I), but
    confusing that with a loving relationship is the stuff of nightmares.
    As we all probably have learned once or twice.
    
    IMNSHO.
    
    jeff

    Jeff,
    
    I agree with  you although I would question how many sequential Just-for-fun
    relationships are healthy relationships.  
    
    I believe in some absolutes about what is right and wrong, and in that
    sense find nothing wrong with just for fun relationships.
    
    I also believe that each one of us needs to make decisions regarding
    what is ultimately healthy for us and for our partners.  That is where
    it becomes much more situational in identifying what is healthy and
    unhealthy.
    
    I loved Scott Pecks book "The Road Less Travelled"
    
                                    Patricia

.11>    Of course, I would also ask, why would a mature grown person want to
>    have a committed long term relationship with someone young and
>    immature.

Interesting question.  Of course, there are a number of well-known answers, but
I'd like to talk about one answer I find interesting.

A mature, grown person may reach an age like 35 or 40 without thinking about it
much.  They they may stop and look at their life.  They have the family, the
mortgage, the steady job, the position in the community.  They may ask
themselves, what happened to enjoying myself?  being spontaneous?  having fun? 
being young?

These are excellent questions, but some answers are more healthy (more
growthful?) than others.

One answer is to deny age and change, and go looking for a partner which has all
the youth that the grown person fears is lost.  The grown person needs the young
person to bring youth into their life, and confirm their image as a still-young
person.  This may be a part of the reason why sought in the question quoted from
.11 above.

Another answer is to accept age and change, then look within for the youth and
spontaneity which may be still there, buried under a conventional mature, grown
up public persona.  In this case the grown person does not need a young partner,
because they accept both youth and maturity within themselves.

From all I've felt, experienced and read, looking within leads the grown person
to more growth and more happiness.  

The same thing applies to the young person seeking a partner who will supply
maturity for them.

I guess I have just given my best response to .0:

>    	What's wrong with May-December romances?
>    	As long as everyone is happy

    re .14
    
    Can another person "supply" for me what I don't have? *I* doubt it. I
    believe that only "I" can supply to me what I don't have. Using other
    people to do that, well, you can guess I have a problem with that.
    
    jeff

>    Can another person "supply" for me what I don't have? *I* doubt it. I
>    believe that only "I" can supply to me what I don't have. Using other
>    people to do that, well, you can guess I have a problem with that.

The answer is within. You just don't know it yet ;-)

    The idea that because a person becomes older they must give-up some of
    the joys and pleasure of youth and act differenty because they're older
    is foolish, in my opinion.
    
    I'm 10 years older than my fiancee, we've been together 5+ years, and
    the common bond that brought us together is still very much a part of
    our lives.
    
    I'm in my mid-forties, (which put's him in his mid-thirties :-)  I/we
    still spend a great deal of time motorcycling.  (as well as skiing)
    
    I realize that quite often people imply that I should 'grow-up' and
    act like a 40+ yrs woman.  They see the age difference in my fiancee as
    more proof that I just want to 'pretend'  I'm still young.
    
    Well, I am still young!  Gawd willing, I'll still be enjoying these
    things when I'm seventy!  and I couldn't give an ounce of care less if
    people think there something wrong with me.  Take a look around at
    'older' people, do they have a life style that you want?  They don't
    have what I want!
    
    I'm not re-living my youth!  I'm doing the things I enjoy in life.  If
    you loved doing it at 30yrs, why *not* 40+ or 50+ or 60+.
    
    My fiancee does bring the joy into my heart just looking at him!  He's
    handsome, and yes very very youthful looking.  At 35yrs old, he has
    still been carded!  We're not together because he's younger, but the
    fact that he is, is just the frosting on the cake.  However to be very
    truthful, when we first started going together, his youthful good looks
    is what attracted me to him.  Why wouldn't it though?  I was almost 40.
    Although I know that *all* the men that read *this* notesfile are of
    course well preserved, and handsome, the fact of the matter his that
    a great portion of the men that I often see, that are of an equal age
    to me are beat to hell!  and not that I'm a beauty myself, I'm not, but
    then again, I wasn't when I 25 either :-)!  I think I look a little younger
    than I am, but people still see the age difference and often 'sort_of'
    make note.  
    
    I don't think it bothers my fiancee at all, least he's never said so!
    
    Our age is not who we are, it's just how long we've been around.
    
    It's not all that easy to find somebody to really love.  As long as
    both people are old enough to begin with (21+) I say: be who you are
    and it won't be the age that makes a difference.
    
    
    Sometimes we'll be someplace and see a man about my fiancee's age with
    a much younger woman, and he'll say:  
    (sort_of hang_dawg jealous look) "Hey! *HE* got a younger one!"
    
    and I'll happily reply:
    
    	"Yea! lucky me, so did I !!"
    
    Sandie

    I am 52 and agree with the prior noters philosophy... do what you want
    and are able to do as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, and to XXX
    with age.
    
    Jeff