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Conference quark::mennotes

Title:	Discussions of topics pertaining to men
Notice:	Please read all replies to note 1
Moderator:	QUARK::LIONELE

Created:	Thu Jan 21 1993
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	268
Total number of notes:	12755

172.0. "How U.S. Culture Hurts Male Friendships" by SX4GTO::OLSON (Doug Olson, ISVETS Palo Alto) Tue May 02 1995 21:18

    This is an interesting article, published today on the op-ed page of
    the San Francisco Chronicle.
    
    DougO
    -----
    How U.S. Culture Hurts Male Friendships 
    
    Andrew Bard Schmookler 
    
    ONE USED TO hear that men are better at friendships than women. But, a
    variety of evidence suggests to me that this is not true in America
    today. 
    
    I've heard men not native to this country complain that most American
    men are simply not available for friendship; and I've heard many women
    express concern that their husbands do not have the kinds of friends
    with whom they can speak freely about what is important in their lives. 
    
    Confirming evidence of this problem comes from recent studies that
    discovered that the death of a spouse devastates the lives of men more
    than women in the United States. The women, it seems, have formed
    networks of emotionally supportive relationships they can fall back on
    in widowhood, while the bereaved men, having closed their hearts over
    the years to all but their wives, wither in social isolation. 
    
    Why aren't men making better friends? 
    
    A central issue may be time. Friendships must be built. But, in a
    culture that teaches its men that their worth is measured by their
    production for the marketplace, the balance between work and the human
    connection gets thrown off. Men who have trouble getting home from work
    soon enough to play with their young children before bedtime are not
    likely to invest in friendship the time its flourishing requires. 
    
    So, part of the problem may be that we males are socialized to be
    drones, and drones build great hives but not great friendships. 
    
    Then there is the matter of intimate communication.  Unless one shares
    what's in one's heart, a heartfelt bond is unlikely to grow.  But, in
    male culture, as it has developed to serve the social community, what's
    in a man's heart can be an unwelcome distraction from the business at
    hand.  Who wants to hear from the guy next to you on the battle lines
    how bone weary he is, or how terrified, or how he'd just like to go
    home?  ``Keep it to yourself!'' is the message the male culture sends us
    as we're growing up, impressing its lessons by shaming the ``sissies''
    who violate the code.  Such ``sharing'' might erode the discipline we
    need to perform the dangerous tasks we have been assigned.  So, we
    construct as an ideal of manhood the ``strong, silent type.''  The
    strength makes him a good protector.  But, the silence makes him
    inaccessible to some of the intimacies of friendship. 
    
    These obstacles are compounded in contemporary America by the fact that
    our male culture is embedded in a system that rewards individual
    success through competition. The notion that men bond better than women
    was founded on the image of us guys as team players. But, teamwork is
    not the same as friendship, especially where ambition is primarily a
    matter of individual striving and where the old ethic of loyalty has
    been uprooted in a corporate landscape of rapidly shifting alliances. 
    
    Today we are working together, against other teams, to achieve a common
    goal. But, who knows how your success will relate to mine tomorrow? The
    masculine culture of competition obstructs the bonds of affection; and
    if the competition is cutthroat, one learns not to expose one's
    vulnerable places to the other guy. The American boy, when he is taught
    to play to win, learns also to wear armor over his softer spots. 
    
    In all these ways, the American male is fashioned into a powerful
    instrument: productive, stalwart, well-armored. It is no accident if he
    is emotionally isolated: With fortresses, separation is an essential
    part of the design. Neither should it be a surprise if a society run by
    such powerful, but also limited, creatures finds itself fragmented and
    beset by public antagonisms. 
    
    In the classical world, the love between friends was one of life's most
    cherished goods. Perhaps if we can regain our hold on this vital strand
    of the weave of life, it will help us repair the frayed fabric of our
    society.

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
172.1	True.	SALEM::PERRY_W		`Wed May 03 1995 10:32`	7
	Good comment DougO!! How true it is! Maybe thats why we only get a handfull of men involved in the political process fighting to become more than *visitors * to our children after a divorce. It's pretty sad. Bill
172.2		43GMC::KEITH	Dr. Deuce	`Wed May 03 1995 11:58`	11
	Great Doug... "Most men lead lives of quiet desparation..." From Death of a Salesman It took me years to understand this after I read it in High School. Steve
172.3		MKOTS3::RAUH	I survived the Cruel Spa	`Wed May 03 1995 13:26`	2
	Quiet lives in quit desparation, is Emerson or Therio(sp).
172.4		NOTAPC::PEACOCK	Freedom is not free!	`Wed May 03 1995 14:23`	8
	re: .3 - I believe that's Thoreau, Henry David, of Walden Pond fame re: .0 - ouch. That one was way too close for comfort... Do men, in general, even build a strong, deep, intimate friendship with their spouses? Just wondering... - Tom
172.5	No. to previous.	PCBUOA::ANGELONE	Failure: line of least persistence.	`Wed May 03 1995 15:36`	10
	As a "two times up, times down" at the marriage batters box.... No. Why ? Good question. I could give an answer from my two experiences but I believe that would be extrmemly unfair for the "gernerally" speaking. Rick A
172.6		CSC32::HADDOCK	Saddle Rozinante	`Wed May 03 1995 16:12`	25
	1) There is a fear of being thought of as "gay" if you are too close to another guy. 2) There is the double message of being told to "get in touch with your feelings', then being scorned when you do. It doesn't take too many times to learn where societies values really lay. Eg., those "whiners" who complain about how men and fathers are treated in the court system and in society. 3) The "mobile" society. Disposable marriages. Disposable fathers. Disposable men. I've seen many studies that men are actually more emotional than women. At least the emotions (although suppressed and hidden) are much more intense. It doesn't take the loss of too many "loved" ones to become hardened and learn the the best way to avoid endings is to avoid beginnings. 4) Friendships require a certain amount of work to maintain. Many men have such a load that the effort to maintain a friendship becomes just one more hasstle. Also a decline in morality, the inability to grasp the ideal that "there are some things you just don't do, especially to a friend", makes friendships much harder to maintain. fred();
172.7	men and friendship	CSSE::NEILSEN	Wally Neilsen-Steinhardt	`Wed May 03 1995 16:30`	38
	From my personal experience, I think .0 is mostly right. Two years ago, I noticed that all of my close friends were women. I set out to change that. Today it is still true. Stuart (?) Miller wrote a book on this subject, with the title _Men and Friendship_. At some point in his midlife, he recognized that he had no male friends. He set out to change this, devoting a large part of his energy to this goal for several years. He eventually reached a kind of success, with one male friend. The book is a fascinating mix of his own thoughts, feelings and experiences, discussions with other men, and comments on other writers. Most of this supports the ideas in .0, with two exceptions. Miller identified a range of obstacles to friendship between men. In addition to those mentioned in .0, there are two I can remember. One is the fear of homosexuality, which not only makes men afraid of getting close, but also makes them expect that offers of friendship will be misunderstood by other men. Another is that our ideal of a close and sharing marriage removes both the energy and the need traditionally associated with friendship among men. Miller also spent a year (six months?) of his quest in Europe, looking for friendship and talking to Europeans about friendship. His report was that Europeans were quite similar to Americans with respect to friendship. He reports at length a lecture he got from an Italian, on why he had no male friends and needed no male friends. The Italian was more articulate than the Americans Miller quotes, but he was saying the same thing. Daniel Levinson, in _Seasons of a Man's Life_, comments on the fact that none of the men he studied had male friends. Other books by and about men say much the same thing. One clarification of terms: when these guys talk about friendship, they mean more than the guys you go to the bar or the ballgame with. Miller offers some questions to test friendship, among them "If you were getting a divorce, who is the first man you would tell?"
172.9		NUBOAT::HEBERT	Captain Bligh	`Wed May 03 1995 19:23`	27
	Over the years (I'm 54) I've had just a few really close friends. I guess I've been secure in my (hetero) sexuality, because it never bothered me to throw an arm over a shoulder or drink from the same bottle. I cried with one buddy when his baby died, and (later) with another one when his wife zorched him (surprised him by having the sheriffs evict him from his house after working a midwatch, whilst she was being diddled by her "therapist"). My close friends were men whose professions _and_ leisure interests matched mine very closely. I changed jobs eleven years ago, and while I welcomed the challenge of the new job, and have enjoyed its environs, I have not found the same kind of friend here. Possibly as a result of this, and as a result of our sons growing up and moving out, my wife (31 years) and I have become closer. There's no doubt that she's my best friend. Not a buddy -- no arm punching and whatnot, because she's my favorite lady -- but just a deeper move into an already close relationship. We have twin-like experiences which no longer surprise us. We could simply be on the same frequency because we've been married to each other longer than we lived single. So, I'm not particularly close to a male friend now, but I don't believe it's because of a culture shift of any kind, and it's not because I'm afraid of what someone might think. I never cared much about that at all, come to think of it. Art
172.12	ah-men.	MAL009::RAGUCCI		`Wed May 03 1995 20:33`	16
	i couldn't agree with you guys more, even though I have 5 brothers my male friends are real important to me. Married or not men need to seek friends with the same sex, it relieves so much b.s with their wives. there was a big study on that years ago, but I forgot who wrote it. Men fear intamacy, and are too homophobic in our culture; we need to redefine friendships & couples. Also some of my best friends in school were women, lasted a while too. But my close friends are guys and always will be. Bob
172.10	read 173	MAL009::RAGUCCI		`Wed May 03 1995 20:34`	9
	Guys I messed up my reply is a new note 173. sorry. Bob
172.11		LASSIE::TRAMP::GRADY	Subvert the dominant pair of dimes	`Wed May 03 1995 23:10`	7
	re: .9 Art, Very well said. tim
172.13		SOLVIT::SOULE	Pursuing Synergy...	`Thu May 04 1995 15:31`	24
	.4> Do men, in general, even build a strong, deep, intimate friendship .4> with their spouses? Just wondering... After 20 years, I would sure like to say that I do, BUT, the "construction process" is continuous... It HAS to be this way else you may find that the upper plateau you reached was nothing more than the next step on the down-escalator. I seem to remember something Steve Lionel posted a while back on rebuilding every day... I think a better question might be "of the men who have built a strong, deep, intimate friendship with their spouses", what "attributes" do these men have in common? .9> We have twin-like experiences which no longer surprise us. We could .9> simply be on the same frequency because we've been married to each .9> other longer than we lived single. I've noticed this as well... You reach for the phone to call your wife, it rings, it's her! (this very thing just happened as I was writing this!) Is there anything to this "psychic resonance"? I think so... You Love someone for so long that the inherent "shielding" between yourselves seems to dissipate with a state of interdependence being the result. Isn't this what we all want?
172.14	friendship with spouse	CSSE::NEILSEN	Wally Neilsen-Steinhardt	`Fri May 05 1995 15:55`	14
	.4> Do men, in general, even build a strong, deep, intimate friendship > with their spouses? Just wondering... I have, and so have other men I know of. Seems to me this is a common goal, among both men and women. It does seem to be a recent goal. I haven't seen it much in fiction or biography before this century, and not much in the early decades of this. .13> I think a better question might be "of the men who have built a > strong, > deep, intimate friendship with their spouses", what "attributes" do these > men have in common? Good question. I have no idea what the answers are.
172.15	I dont agree	POLAR::WILSONC		`Sun May 07 1995 05:22`	21
	I have read on a number of occasions that men have difficulty building strong emotional bonds with each other but as of yet have not experienced the problem myself. All of my male friends are able to discuss intimate details of their lives with little reservation. I would suggest that the problem is more of a generational rather than societal one. My brother who is 44 tells me about the difficulty he has getting his male friends to open up where as at 27 I have little trouble opening up to my friends or they to me. So perhaps some of the fears discussed here about men still being taught to be islands should be abandonned. I think that there has been some positive advancements in this area since the end of the 1960's and it has been the children born after the 60's who have benifitted from the enlightenment of that time. I remember in high school that those guys who could be honest about their feelings had an easier time with the girls. Perhaps even feminine movement could be responsible for a shift that I think is happening. I also think that the decline of Western Civilization is forcing those who wish to survive to depend on each other emotionally and otherwise. Poor old Ayn Rand is probably rolling in her grave and if she isn't she should be. chris
172.16		NOTAPC::PEACOCK	Freedom is not free!	`Mon May 08 1995 14:23`	29
	re: .15 Chris, > I have read on a number of occasions that men have difficulty building > strong emotional bonds with each other but as of yet have not > experienced the problem myself. ... > > ... My brother who is 44 tells me about the difficulty he has > getting his male friends to open up where as at 27 I have little > trouble opening up to my friends or they to me. Without knowing anything about the folks involved, I am led to a different sort of question.... is it possible that its you, and not your age? Is it easier for you to open up about stuff than your brother? If you have an easier time of opening up than your brother, than perhaps your friends are more able to open up because of it? My reason for asking is this... I am 33 yrs old, and I personally have a great deal of trouble opening up with folks about the intimate details of my life. But then again, I acknowledge that I am carrying around a great deal of baggage internally that I am working through. This fact alone, for me, outweighs anything that my age may or may not influence. Anyway, I guess my point is that there may be a lot more to this than just the age difference... Just looking at it from a different angle, - Tom
172.17	Men's Weekend	GLRMAI::MOLLIN		`Mon May 08 1995 14:52`	29
	A couple of months ago I entered a note looking for a men's discussion/support group. I realized that the only men in my life, outside of work, were the husbands of my wife's friends. I happened to look at my wedding album and noticed that the only man in my wedding party that I still have contact with, is my brother-in-law. With the help of another reader of this notesfile I learned about and attended a men's weekend and now meet on a weekly basis with other men who attended the same weekend. This is helping me meet my goal of establishing and maintaining meaningful relationships with other men and I'm having fun at the same time. The weekend had additional benefits for me in helping me realize what's important to me and what it means to live on my terms. The weekly meetings help me stay in touch with what I learned and not fall back into well established habits. The purpose of the weekend is to engage in a process to: locate the source of your power, and discover and dissolve the barriers between you and manifesting that power. If you are interested in learning more about this weekend and how it might help you become the man you always wanted to be, please contact me: DTN 227-3594 or 508-952-3594 GLRMAI::MOLLIN or Dick Mollin @TAY Home phone: 508-393-7438, if busy 508-393-7419 Dick
172.18	age and men's friendship	CSSE::NEILSEN	Wally Neilsen-Steinhardt	`Mon May 08 1995 16:23`	28
	Re .15. Interesting. The books I have read were by and about men born between about 1935 and 1955, like me. I have not heard anything about studies on men born later. Anyway, you and your friends have something great here. Thinking about this gets complicated because there are at least three possibilities. Is it just you and your friends? Is it men your age? Is it your cohort, the men born at about the same time as you? If it is just you and your friends, you might notice a difference talking to other men your age, like co-workers or inlaws. How do they talk about their friendships? If it is your age, then older men might say they were like that at your age. For what it is worth, men usually report strong and intimate friendships in their early 20s (college, military, first job and so forth). Then career, marriage and moving gradually break up the friendships. If it is your cohort, then maybe feminism, the men's movement and other changes are really making a difference for men born after 1965 or whenever. My guess, unsupported by any data, is that all three possibilities are partially true.