Conference quark::mennotes

    I hope to meet another woman who wants to have a child with me. Or if
    not adopt one. I have a real neet little 6 year old. She is allot
    laughs.

    I always knew I wanted to have a child. We only have one, and sometimes
    I wish we'd had more. We still could of course but I'll be old by the
    time they grow up and I'm busy enough taking care of older relatives.

    I can't imagine life without kids. Raising my son is the most important
    thing I've done in my life. After my wife, my son is my best friend.
    I can't express the joy a child brings. From the time I counted his
    fingers and toes until the present being a father has been a wonderful
    experience. 

    I know people, men and women both, who don't want kids. Frankly, I
    can't understand it. So yes, I think, most men really want to have
    kids. Not so many want to take care of them though. :-(

    			Alfred

    re .2, I agree with Alfred.  I've known both men and women who don't
    want to have kids, and both men and women who do.  I don't think it's
    gender dependent.
    
    Lorna
    

>    \nasser
>    who_will_never_ever_want_to_have_babies

I'm so relieved.

    
>    \nasser
>    who_will_never_ever_want_to_have_babies

     So \nasser, can we all assume that you have had yourself sterilized or
     that your Lover is impregnable?  In other words, how have you insured
     that you will_never_ever_HAVE_babies?

    Fro many years I was ambivalent on this topic; after all, I am single,
    and my first concern is meeting a compatible woman.  Well, from going
    out with a couple of women that had children, and working with them in
    my karate class, I learned that they are important to me.  It's one of
    the hard questions that I look for an answer to when considering a
    relationship.
    
    Rich

        .5

    > So \nasser, can we all assume that you have had yourself sterilized or
    > that your Lover is impregnable?  In other words, how have you insured
    > that you will_never_ever_HAVE_babies?

    first, iam NOT sterilized , PLEASE !! and i will never ever 
    sterilize myself . (they'lll have to tie me down to a chair over my
    dead body first to do ! )

    also i dont have a lover right at this minute , but if and when i 
    did, i'll ask her to please not get pregnant or anything like that 
    and to take the bill. i'll also want to sign a pre-nagotional 
    agreement that says that she will not get pregnant when we get 
    married. i also heard that in Europe they have a new bill for 
    men too so that they can't make babies, i'll want look into that.

    the bottom line is that, i know i'll never ever have babies and all
    the fuss that goes with raising them .

    i think this society discremntate against single people and against
    couples with no children, and this got to stop. like on the tv show
    they said that if the couple don't want to make kids, people look at
    them weird and funny as if something wrong with them. 

    any way, it is the mother in law who keeps telling the wife to have
    kids, if it were not for the mother in law pushing the daughter to have
    babies (without asking the man for his opinion mind you), we'll not
    be in this miss we all are in today in our society.

    \nasser

    
    I'd do it if I were crazy in love with a wimmin who absolutely 
    had to have one and wanted one with me.
    
    Otherwize one would have to be quite nuts.

    	We agreed before we were married that 5 kids would be a nice
    number. Unfortunately she had a series of miscarriages, and finally had
    to have a hysterectomy for medical reasons. Now I'm just waiting for
    grandchildren - son married and elder daughter planning to marry within
    the next 12 months. The baby of the family is 14 years old
    and I am rather hoping she will leave off producing grandchildren for
    me for the next 6 years.
    
    
    	Just the divorce stories in here will tell you that many men want
    kids. Otherwise, why bother marrying when you can probably get sex
    without it, and why fuss about custody on the divorce if if you didn't
    want them in the first place.

    So, in other words Nasser its the womans responsibility to make sure she
    doesn't get pregnant, is that right?
    
    I personally don't believe that whether a man is sterile or not has
    anything to do with his manliness or verility.

    
 .7>  first, iam NOT sterilized , PLEASE !! and i will never ever 
 .7>  sterilize myself . (they'lll have to tie me down to a chair over my
 .7>  dead body first to do ! )

      Either you do it via surgery (before the fact) or the System will do it
      (metaphorically) via the courts (after the fact).  This whole Notes file
      is testimony to that fact...  You have an opportunity to be captain of
      your own destiny and yet refuse to do so!  Get ready for the ultimate
      Checkmate...

 .7>  also i dont have a lover right at this minute , but if and when i 
 .7>  did, i'll ask her to please not get pregnant or anything like that 
 .7>  and to take the bill. 

      Yup, make her pay for the abortion...

 .7>  i'll also want to sign a pre-nagotional agreement that says that she
 .7>  will not get pregnant when we get married.

      Yeah, she'll sign anything after the lobotomy...

 .7>  the bottom line is that, i know i'll never ever have babies and all
 .7>  the fuss that goes with raising them .

      Not only will you have babies, some woman will have you by the short-end
      as well...

 .7>  any way, it is the mother in law who keeps telling the wife to have kids,

      Learn to communicate with her...  It was that Gift Certificate to the
      Funeral Home I got my MIL one Christmas that did the trick for me...

    
    nasser's going to ensure every SINGLE one of his sperm and her eggs
    have ALL read the signed agreement before they mingle, eh?
    
    sounds like a sure thing to me!

    
    History shows that men not only want children, but have hung around
    not only to support and teach them (even in the "bad old days when men had
    all the power to do whatever they wanted"), but have fought and died 
    to protect them. 

    It has only been in the last few years that men have been
    disenfranchised as parents.  The days when a man could be separated
    from his family and most of his pay confiscated to support someone
    else was supposed to have gone out with the emancipation proclamation.
    Now we call it "no fault" divorce.  

    Even legal agreements will not hold water.  In a case not many months
    ago, a woman had signed papers to the affect that she would not hold
    the man responsible in any way if he would father her child.  A couple
    years later she hauled him into court for support.  The court, saying
    that the woman had no legal authority to sign away the child's 
    entitlement, hit him for $100K in "child support".  There is even a
    movement under way to force "sperm banks" to identify donors so "the
    child can know who his real parents are".

    As much as I love my children, and as much as I have fought to 
    provide for them and protect them, in todays society and judicial
    system I would not have children if I had it to do over again.
    
    fred();

    /nasser,
    
    If you don't want children, ever, then you need to do something about
    preventing conception, be it sterilization, consistant and proper use
    of a condom, or not having heterosexual intercourse.  You can't put it
    all on a woman, even though you can ask that she ALSO practice birth
    control.  All methods can fail, but if you double up with sterilization
    or using a condom properly every time you participate in intercourse,
    you can reduce the odds of conception quite a bit.
    
    meg

    
>      Learn to communicate with her...  It was that Gift Certificate to the
>      Funeral Home I got my MIL one Christmas that did the trick for me...

    What did the trick for me was when the MIL asked me what sort of a 
    woman I'd look for as a wife if anything happened to her daughter.
    I told her "an orphan."

    			Alfred

    \nasser, you're a Pill, a real Pill...

:-)

loved it!

    I'd like to have children. Now somebody find me a 
    possible wife that would like to too. ;)
    
    		-Jim-

 .14> You can't put it all on a woman, even though you can ask that she ALSO
 .14> practice birth control.

      For the sake of discussion we have two irrefutable facts:

      1) Only a Woman can get pregnant.

      2) Only a Man can impregnate a Woman.

      Now, I believe \nasser (as well as most humans above a certain age) is
      cognizant of these facts.  It is also alleged that \nasser is a Man,
      however, he states that he will never impregnate a Woman.  This is only
      possible if 1) he abstains from sex  OR 2) has himself sterilized.
      These are the only ways in which a Man can insure that he NEVER
      impregnate a Woman...  It DOESN'T MATTER if \nasser's Lover practices
      ANY form of birth control because \nasser has stated "he will never have
      children", therefore, the onus is on \nasser which means that \nasser (or
      any of his ilk) abstain from sex or opt for sterilization.  In order
      to abstain from sex you need to be MORE or LESS (take your pick) than a
      Man, therefore, \nasser (not the Woman) SHOULD be sterilized...

        .20

    \soule.

    you seem to miss the whole point completely.

    most women will not marry the man if he told them he is sterilized , because
    she will think he is not good if he is sterilized, but what is more
    important to the issue of hand is that if the man told her he is
    NOT sterlized, the woman might still have hopes
    of changing the man mind (with the help of the MIL offcours) to have babies
    after they get married even though with the explicit impressions
    by the man before hand that he dont want babies.

    but if the man told the woman he has sterilized himself then
    she will know she will have no hope of making babies with this man
    even if she changes his mind and she will leave him and the man will
    lose his true love he spend all his life looking for because of this.

    it is not as simple as you make it sound, most men in nature (except
    for a few weird ones) dont't really want babies and they have the
    babies only after pressure from the woman and the MIL in form of
    subtle remarks like "you dont love me any more" and things like
    that, so the man goes and have a baby just to make the woman happy
    but deep deep down inside they really did not want this headache.

    and what do you mean exactly iam a real pill? i dont get this one.
                            
    \bye
    \nasser

    
    \nasser, I have to ask you this. I really really do. What color is
    the sky over the world you live in? :-)
    
    			Alfred

    /nasser,
    	I think there are aspects of this that you haven't explored.  I
    would suggest seeking additional feedback in IKE22::WOMANNOTES.  Some
    of the people there will let you know about some of the things that
    you've been missing.
    						John/|\
    

>    iam banned for life from the =wn= notes file.

I thought you were panned.

 .21>  and what do you mean exactly iam a real pill? i dont get this one.
                            
       Sorry, I was wrong.  You're obviously just a placebo...

    Re: .24
    
    >    iam banned for life from the =wn= notes file.
    
    I just can't imagine why.
    
    tim
    

    
    \Nasser, I am moved to reply:
    
    REAL women, or at least one who knows she does not want a child and has
    enough of her own mind to disregard what others may say (eg, MIL) will
    APPRECIATE a man of the same mind who has had the responsibility to get
    the little nipper clipped.
    
    If your prospective mate and you are not both in complete agreement as
    to this issue, I suggest finding another prospective mate, as this
    issues tends to polarize folks somewhat; there is note on this in +wn+
    which you could scan through for more detail.
    
    If you and your mate agree that the patter of little feet provides only
    shivers and not warm fuzzies, and neither of you are certifiably
    sterile, let's hope the luck 'o the Irish is strong within ye.  *ALL*
    forms of birth control have some failures (with the exception of
    abortion, and I don't view that as birth control; personal bias)
    
    So what's your fall back plan when your heart of hearts tells you, that
    much to HER surprise, she's "in the family way"?
    
    
    Jamd

    
    gee, Nasser, maybe you don't have to be so defensive or cautious about
    finding the right woman to marry.
    
    just find one that doesn't want to have children either.
    easy as pie - either or both of you can get their tubes tied, and you
    can live happily ever after.
    
    there *are* women like that, you know....it's not like we're all
    cringing animals at the mercy of our biological clocks....(some of us
    have actually got them on snooze at this point)
    
    -Jody
    

    .26
    \soule, you are a pin head !
    
    .28
    
>    So what's your fall back plan when your heart of hearts tells you, that
>    much to HER surprise, she's "in the family way"?
    
    \Jamd, what do you mean by "in the family way?" 
    
.29
        
>    gee, Nasser, maybe you don't have to be so defensive or cautious about
>    finding the right woman to marry.
    
 iam NOT being defensive ! iam just saying that men are used by women to
    make babies, and most women marry men becuase they want to have kids
    from them.
        
>    just find one that doesn't want to have children either.
    
    99.99% of women want babies. they might say they dont want them
    now, but after you get married they'll change there minds.
    
    >there *are* women like that, you know....
    yes, sure.
    
    and what does do you mena by the some got them on the "snooze" at this
    point? is this an expression too?
    
thanks
    \bye
    \nasser    
    

    
>>    So what's your fall back plan when your heart of hearts tells you, that
>>    much to HER surprise, she's "in the family way"?
>    
>    \Jamd, what do you mean by "in the family way?" 
    
    It means "pregnent." He's asking you what you'd do if the woman you
    loved became pregnent through no fault of her own. Birth control does
    sometimes fail to work.
    
> iam NOT being defensive ! iam just saying that men are used by women to
>    make babies, and most women marry men becuase they want to have kids
>    from them.
    
    And some men use women to make babies for them. Such has always been
    the case. Most normal men want children.
    
    			Alfred

        >It means "pregnent." He's asking you what you'd do if the woman you
    >loved became pregnent through no fault of her own. Birth control does
    >sometimes fail to work.

    this situation will not happen to start with. if the 2 people
    really love each other and have prior agreement not to get
    pregnant i don't see why this should change after the marriage.

    >And some men use women to make babies for them. Such has always been
    >the case. Most normal men want children.
    
    so, you mean most normal men use women? since you say some men
    use women to make babies, and then you say most normal men want
    children, then this mean that some normal men use women.

    a man who uses a woman is NOT normal !! he is a sicko !! 

    i'll never use a woman to make babies with, and i also dont want
    the woman to use my body to make babies.

    plus, i completely disagree with you that most normal men want babies.
    you have been brain washed by your MIL to think like this, i know
    some of my male friends from the college days who said they wanted to
    get married and have many babies, i always thought they really weird.

    iam normal and i dont want babies. so here goes your hypotheses out
    the window.

    \bye
    \nasser

/Nasser,
	I disagree with your assertions.  I think you have been 
brainwashed by late night TV.

>    you have been brain washed by your MIL to think like this, i know

	My mother in law was dead before I got married, and I wanted, 
and still want children.  

>    iam normal and i dont want babies. so here goes your hypotheses out
     ^^^^^^^^^^
	I would respectfully suggest that this premise would bear
further examination.
					John/|\

            .33

    most men who want babies are all the macho types who want
    to proof their manly hoods to the rest of the neighbors and
    their friends that they have more children than they.

    this is very subtle and comes from old days when the men in the
    tribes are judged by how big their family is, in those days the men who have
    more siblings (preferably boys not girls) are looked at as
    real men, and the ones who have small number of children or
    not children as not real men, this has carried on from the
    stone and cave ages to the present modern day and have manifested itself
    by men who say they want to have babies, but really deep down inside
    they want to have babies to proof they are still men.

    it is like men who collect expensive cars or things like that, it
    is a subconscious thing and until men realized that they dont need
    to make babies to proof themselves this problem will not be solved.

    the theory of evolution is working here, if you go read how
    men lived in the stone ages, you can see the traces of their
    behaviors to the present day loud and clear !

    \nasser
    a_very_normal_healthy_man_who_dont_want_babies

It's nonsense to say "normal men want (or don't want) babies".  Some do,
some don't.  It's not a biological urge to want children, it's entirely
societal pressure.  There is a biological urge to have sex - the babies are
a side-effect.

Some people want children and make good parents.  Some don't.  Unfortunately,
many people have children whether they want them or not.

Nasser, if you don't want children, that's fine.  Ignore those who try to
tell you "you'll love them once you have them".  If you're serious about
not wanting children, then it's YOUR responsibility to make sure you don't
father any.  A vasectomy is the most reliable method.  If you push the
responsibility onto your female partners you'll more likely than not end up
with an unpleasant surprise.

I happen to like children; my son was planned and is very much a wanted
child.  But not every man, nor every woman, should be a parent.  In an ideal
world, only those who conciously choose to have children would do so.

					Steve

    re .34, I don't think there's any particular type of person who wants
    kids.  All sorts of people want kids, and all sorts of people don't
    want kids.  
    
    Lorna
    

    \nasser - 
    
    a study of evolution would show that both sexes are somewhat motivated
    to engage in reproductive activities, and furthermore..
    
    No wait, let's keep this simple.
    
    \nasser, fortunately there is room in life for all types, and the range
    for "normal" is similarly wide.  I suggest you continue to develop your
    bachelor ways as well as find value and joy in abstinence.  It really
    will be simplest.
    
    \hope this helps
    Jamd

    Nasser,
    
    I repeat, if you don't want babies, then you had best do something to
    prevent your fathering any.  Abstinence would be the best, particularly
    if you refuse sterilization.  Birth control methods fail with
    depressing regularity particularly if BOTH partners are not using a
    method, other than railing at the gods to prevent conception because
    you are both in love and have decided to not have children.  I do hope
    that at the least you will use a condom properly.
    
    I suggest that if you are certain that you never want to parent that
    you find a like-minded partner, and both of you get sterilized if
    abstinence isn't an option.  In your case I think having children would
    be an unmitigated disaster.
    
    Meg

Nasser,

If you really don't want children, then saying you have had a vasectomy 
will make it easier to screen potential mates.  You do not want to marry
a woman who is hoping to talk you around.

In the interests of honesty and security, I suggest you get a vasectomy 
before you need to say you have had one.


As for me, I don't want children and neither does my wife.  Some of the
people (men and women) I know share this desire, but most do not.  I don't
really understand people who want children, but I don't think they have
been brainwashed by their mothers-in-law.  The cultural message to have 
children is much more pervasive than that.  Unlike Steve, I think there
may be a biological urge to raise children, although I couldn't prove it.
Plus, having children may be a rational decision for many people, quite
apart from culture or biology.

    
>    >And some men use women to make babies for them. Such has always been
>    >the case. Most normal men want children.
>    
>    so, you mean most normal men use women? since you say some men
>    use women to make babies, and then you say most normal men want
>    children, then this mean that some normal men use women.

    Please tell me that you don't program computers for Digital. You
    obviously have trouble parsing. And expressing yourself. For example
    "Most men" and "some men" are not equivalent but you imply that they
    are.

    I believe that most, though not all, normal men want children. That is 
    not the same as saying that men who don't want children are not normal.

    I believe that some men use women for making babies, among other
    things. That is not the same as saying that such men are normal. Some
    may and some may not be. Normal covers a wide range.

    When a man and a woman both want children I believe it is unfair to
    categorize one or the other as "using" the other. "Using" has come
    connotations that don't fit with a mutual decision to have children.

>    iam normal and i dont want babies. so here goes your hypotheses out
>    the window.

    How does that prove that the hypothesis that some normal men don't want
    babies is false?

    			Alfred

re .40:

I don't think Nasser has a problem with logic.  I think he's pulling your leg.
He really speaks and writes English quite well.  This is just a persona he
adopts in some notesfiles.

re biological urge to reproduce:

I'm not sure what this means.  We certainly have a biological urge to engage
in behavior that's required for reproduction.  What's the difference between
the urge to copulate and the urge to reproduce?

Re: .41

The difference is in how it affects behavior.  Does a horny young man go
around saying "I wanna start a baby tonight!"?  No, he says "I wanna get laid!"

The biological urge is to have sex.  That this is nature's way of ensuring that
we reproduce is secondary.  Just read the paper for stories about newborn
babies abandoned in trash cans, etc., and you'll realize that the urge to
care for children is taught, not innate.  In the animal kingdom, it's
common for females to abandon their newborn young.  If we hadn't built up
a society that EXPECTS us to care for our children, it wouldn't happen.  (And
it doesn't, all too often.)

				Steve

If the only reason humans don't abandon babies is societal pressure, what
happened before there *was* society?

    I'm not sure that /nasser is sincere in saying in doesn't want
    children.  He almost seems to be protesting too much (as though he were
    about to be kidnapped and forced to take on fatherhood).  :-)
    
    /nasser - is it /nasser or \nasser - I never seem to be able to
    remember - can you imagine the joy you would receive from teaching your
    own son how to play chess?   It would probably match the sense of
    camaraderie I got the first time I took my daughter (then 9 yrs.) to a
    Springsteen concert.  Oh, well, I guess it really is impossible for
    people who want children to understand those who don't, and vice-versa. 
    I can't remember a time when I didn't want a daughter.
    
    I do, however, agree with those who say that if anyone (especially
    males) doesn't ever want children they should be the ones to make sure
    it won't happen, and not just depend on their partner.  It reminds me
    of an ex-boyfriend of mine who wanted me to "get fixed" because *he*
    didn't want to have anymore children.  I pointed out to him that my
    getting fixed was only going to keep him from having more kids, if he
    was faithful to me for the rest of his life, something I knew he had no
    intention of being.  I said to him, "Why should *I* get fixed because
    *you* don't want any more kids?  Maybe *I'd* like another kid.  If you
    don't want anymore kids, then *you* get fixed."   (We broke up 6 1/2
    yrs. ago and neither of us has had anymore kids.)
    
    Lorna
    

Re: .43

When was that? 

	Steve

Origin of man.

Well, unless you believe in the Biblical version, Man didn't just suddenly
appear on this planet.  Nuturing was a learned behavior that increased the
survival rate.

					Steve

Nurturing increases the survival rate in the long term.  It decreases the
survival rate in the short term.  So how was it learned according to your
scenario?

 >     I believe that most, though not all, normal men want children. That is 
 >     not the same as saying that men who don't want children are not normal.

    In that case, what's the purpose of the word "normal" in the above
    (first) sentence? I think it's just as probably that most, though not
    all, abnormal men want children (assuming your definition of normal and
    abnormal isn't centered on the desire for offspring). So why not try to
    avoid annoying those normal men among us that don't want children and
    just say "... most men want children"?

    re: .42
>care for children is taught, not innate.  In the animal kingdom, it's
>common for females to abandon their newborn young.  If we hadn't built up
>a society that EXPECTS us to care for our children, it wouldn't happen.  (And
>it doesn't, all too often.)
    
    	This depends a lot on the species. Grasshoppers just tend to lay
    their eggs. On the other hand, a female scorpion guards her eggs until
    they hatch, and then for some time carries her babies around on her
    back. If they are dislodged she will run round collecting them together
    again. I have observed this myself with scorpions found at our house.
    
    	In sea horses it is the male that has the brood pouch into which
    the female lays the eggs, and he hatches them and guards them until
    they are capable of surviving independantly. Similarly, the male
    stickleback guards the nest and will give his life protecting it or his
    newly hatched young from another fish.
    
    	I would be surprised if all of these were caused by societal
    pressure, and I could give many more examples if you don't like these.
    Why should you assume that in the human species a desire for caring for
    babies is purely societal pressure.
    
    	In the higher animals it is reported as an anomoly when a female
    does not care for her young, and in many cases (most common birds, most
    mammals where there is some sort of monogamous pairing behaviour) the
    male does too. In herd species the males tend to protect the whole
    herd, while the female cares only for her own offspring, though there
    are many examples of females of such species caring for orphaned young.
    
    	The human species is a bit unusual since there seems to be a
    tendancy towards monogamy, but not absolute. Based on examples from the
    animal kingdom you should expect a partial dichotomy amongst the males,
    where some would have the instinct to care mainly for their own
    offspring while others had only an instinct for herd survival. The
    abnormal ones are those that don't care for either.

>    most men who want babies are all the macho types who want
>    to proof their manly hoods to the rest of the neighbors and
>    their friends that they have more children than they.

 Whoa Nelly. The Inane Drivel Meter is going off the scale!
I can practically see the spittle flyuing out of his mouth as he writes 
this garbage.

    
>    In that case, what's the purpose of the word "normal" in the above
>    (first) sentence? I think it's just as probably that most, though not

    To emphasis the opinion that wanting a child is not abnormal.

    >    avoid annoying those normal men among us that don't want children and

    \Nassar isn't making any attempt to avoid annoying those men who do
    want children. In fact, the contrary appears true. I'm sorry if I
    did annoy anyone but I thought that making it clear that I felt that
    normal men might not want children would have avoided annoying any
    but those looking to be annoyed.

    		Alfred

    .51
    
    look who is talking about writing garbage. the king of garbage writing
    himself.
    
    .52
    
    as other have said, i think we should not used the word normal, i only
    said iam normal when you said i was not normal becuase you said normal
    men want babies and i was not normal if i did not want them.
    
    if you think you are normal becuase you want babies that is fine, i
    also think iam normal, in fact iam pretty much sure iam normal too.
    
    \nasser

    RE: .53 I never said that you are not normal because you don't
    want a child. There are *other* things that might drive me to that 
    conclusion though.
    
    On the other hand, you made it pretty clear in your early notes that
    you did not believe it was common or normal for men to want children.
    Have you changed your mind on that?
    
    			Alfred

        .54

    >There are *other* things that might drive me to that 
    >conclusion though.

    hummm.. can you please elaborate more on this?

    >On the other hand, you made it pretty clear in your early notes that
    >you did not believe it was common or normal for men to want children.
    >Have you changed your mind on that?

    i think i said that "normally" men don't want babies, but for undue
    circumentances such as cultural and the evolution pressure for
    men to have babies to proof themselves in the tribe and keep the family
    name big, men were conditioned to want babies, in the present time
    the presence of the MIL and the bias in the media and the press and
    commercials against single people and ones with no babies added to 
    this pressure on men to be conditioned as such.
    
    i hope this explanation clears every thing by now.
    
    i dont want to pull the cow by its horns at this issue much more.
    
    \nasser

    
>    >There are *other* things that might drive me to that 
>    >conclusion though.
>
>    hummm.. can you please elaborate more on this?
    
    Sure. Stop by my office next time you're in NIO and we'll talk.
    
    			Alfred

I never wanted babies, so I got myself fixed several years ago.  All 
my cats are fixed, too.  Whee dawn nid naw stinking bebbez.  :-)

    >    most men who want babies are all the macho types who want
    >    to proof their manly hoods to the rest of the neighbors and
    >    their friends that they have more children than they.
    
    I have had this told to me once. Like I have no other driving force but
    to show what a big boy I am? No sensitivity? Wow... I am happy as pie
    to have had a child, and a little girl too! We are the best of friends
    and watching her grow on a daily basis is a real high in my life. 
    Watching her thru her eyes is fun and an awakening of life past. 
    
    Perhaps with some people thats true. But, not with all folks that is
    the underlining reason for having children. 

    re .55  Well, \Nassar, that certainly cleared things up for me. Thank
    you. 

    This debate goes on and on about normal.  Geeez.  The range of normalcy
    is so wide we are xxxing into the wind on this issue.  This is
    especially true regarding preferences, such as whether to have children
    or not. 
    
    I am left almost 'write' less at some of the earlier entries in this 
    string.  Unbelievable.  Do we have a cultural gap here or what?
    
    Jeff