Conference quark::mennotes

    I certainly have found that I can have close personal friendships with
    women.  It isn't impossible.  Just as in any relationship with anyone,
    it is important to set boundaries of acceptable behavior; when
    something happens that makes you uncomfortable you own the
    responsibility and the obligation to communicate the fact and
    to discuss it until a mutual understanding is reached.  It can be very
    difficult!  It will often mean really thinking HARD about why you feel
    the way you feel, and trying to explain it.  Sometimes, it means
    changing your mind, when you realize that you're reacting in a way that
    you decided to act years in the past due to understandings that you
    have since transcended, come to see differently, yet never quite
    integrated into all of your behavior patterns until this discomfort
    showed the disconnect.  Developing a relationship of any sort (friends,
    or emotionally intimate, or emotionally and physically intimate) can be
    this sort of learning experience; learning about yourself as much as
    about the other person.  Communicating with that other is the key.
    
    DougO

    	Of course it can work. If you can understand each other well enough
    to be good friends you can understand each other well enough to know
    when a sexual relationship is out of the question.
    
    	My best friend is a woman. For about 4 years we shared an office,
    but she was TFSO'd almost a year ago. I have been married for almost 25
    years, and for most of the last five years she has had a monogamous
    relationship (though that has recently split up). The nearest we have
    come to physical intimacy is the traditional French kiss on the cheek,
    but we understand each other well enough that we can joke about a
    sexual relationship. Anecdotes follow.
    
    	On one occasion she complained to her manager that I wasn't
    providing her with sufficient sexual harassment in the office.
    
    	We had to go on a business trip abroad, and since it was to a place
    famous for honeymoons we told the rest of the office we were eloping.
    While we were there she asked me what I would do if I went back to my
    room and found a woman on my bed, and I wold her I would have to 'phone
    my wife for permission. Later she described this, and asked my wife
    what would be the answer if I did 'phone. My wife told her that
    provided the other woman did her share of the housework I was welcome
    to have more than one woman.
    
    	On Wednesday evenings my wife goes out Scottish dancing, and my
    friend comes round to play chess with me. My wife gets back from her
    dancing about 11:30, but the chess often continues until 1:00 a.m.
    
    	I know my friend well enough to know that she would be both
    surprised and disgusted if I ever suggested being unfaithful to my
    wife.

    Maybe you're interested in another story from a woman's point of
    view....
    
    I once met a male workmate from another site at some party. We found
    each other very sympathic although we both had a partner at home. We
    talked and we felt very close. I guess, it turned to be a little
    'flirting' in the beginning. Our minds and thoughts seemed to be one
    the time we spent together talking. We didn't do anything what would 
    destroy the trust of our partners. But I guess or minds did think about 
    it. We were proud to feel so close without doing anything.
    
    We met some more times, it was like a "little flame" but because of
    that we could have some good talk and some nice evenings (You know,
    those talks goin' on for hours through the night which help you to 
    think about you're whole life and also smallest events and so)
    
    Well, I met him once again, his girl-friend was with him. We greated
    each other, looked into our eyes and it was like all the other times.
    We are REAL friends, no matter what happens. We know that nothing will
    happen that would destroy this relationship or would destroy the trust
    of our partners and we are proud of this. 
    
    For me it's very important to talk about some problems with some guy,
    because he can tell me about men's feelings and thoughts. And I know I
    can trust him which makes it much easier to talk. I wouldn't open
    myself to some guy Where I knew he would only use this for his desire
    to start something up......
    It's like one of these relationships between 2 women, just with more
    possibilities. And I wouldn't want to miss this one, believe me...
    
    The only other possibilty for a woman to surely exclude the sexual aspect 
    would be to find some gay friend, which I also had. I know that I can trust 
    someone who won't fall in love with me. 
    
    I hope this gives you another positive aspect.
                                           
    

    I have close male friends so I know it's possible.  I think it works
    best when both people are happy with the friendship as it exists, and
    neither one wants more from it.  Also, it's important that both people
    understand that the relationship is a friendship, and not something
    more.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Male friends I find easiest to have when our relationships resemble
    models of other relationships that I have caricatures for. Like father/
    daughter or sister/brother. Because such relationships are deep, warm
    and trusting but non-sexual, I know that if I shoot for those models,
    sex won't really be much of an issue.
    
    At the same time, I think the feeling has to be mutual. If you're
    looking to have someone as a friend and they are looking for something
    else, things are difficult. Frankly, I think it's torturous to insist
    on maintaining a friendship with someone who wants more. Surely you can
    find someone else to be friends with so that s/he can find someone else
    to fall in love with.

    Some of my best friends are male :-).  No really.  I have worked in
    non-traditional jobs for enough years that men are who I interact with
    more often then women.  it is very possible to have a platonic
    friendship that doesn't reuire falling into lover, parent/child/,
    sibling or whatever, as long as you ignore the people who haven't
    figured this out.  
    
    Meg

    
    i think many men would like to have ladies friends , but they are
    afraid else the ladies think the men are just after the same
    old thing and they make scream at them and get them in trouble,
    if a man asks a woamn for a cup of coffee, she immediatly thinks
    here we go again, but many times may be he wants just to chat and
    be buddies. i think it is the ladies who make potanic relations
    hard to come about not the men.
    
    most men are not dirty old men like women think.
                            
    and since iam on a roll, i want to express some more deeper feelings
    on the subject, i think that the female/male relation is 
    screwed up in the 90's .
    
    i see that it is a reflection of the changing roles, i think that
    by the 2020's or 2030's things will be ok, but it will need this time
    for things to clear up.

    i think we are in midst of a relation revolution right now, this is the
    biggest relation revolution between the sexes since the middle ages i
    would say. we live in unique times of changes and reflections between
    the 2 sexes, and until the earthquake we are in its midst stops
    shaking we'll always have these issues to worry about.

    just some passing thoughts i thought i share it with every one.

    thank you,
    \nasser

 I find it easier to be friends with a woman than to be lovers. Women
seem to find this arrangement more to their liking as well. :-)

I find that it is definitely possible.  At the moment, all the people I am
close to are women.

I don't have much to add to earlier comments, particularly from Doug.

There is always a tension when people are potential sexual partners.  I even
see this in same-sex friendships among gay and lesbian people I know.  But
it is possible to accept and deal with this tension.  To me, a good friendship
is worth dealing with the tension.

It is also true that society offers some support for sexual relationships,
unless they are same-sex.  But society offers no support for platonic 
friendship, rather the reverse.  So friends are always subject to confusion
and misunderstanding, some of it vicious.  It takes an effort to overcome
this.  I know it is possible, and for me it is worth while.

I don't know what is possible for Andre or anyone else.

.7>    i think many men would like to have ladies friends , but they are
>    afraid else the ladies think the men are just after the same
>    old thing and they make scream at them and get them in trouble,
>    if a man asks a woamn for a cup of coffee, she immediatly thinks
>    here we go again, but many times may be he wants just to chat and
>    be buddies. i think it is the ladies who make potanic relations
>    hard to come about not the men.

Nasser,

I am not willing to hand off my responsibility for friendship.

If I were to ask a woman for coffee, anywhere but the caf, I would expect a
negative reaction.  That's the society I live in.  But I've still got a 
lot of alternatives.

The people I am now close to are people I have known for years, meeting them
in groups dozens or hundreds of times.  This gave them and me a lot of time
to get to know each other, to understand what kind of relationships we are
both looking for.  So if I ask a woman out for dinner, we both know exactly
what that means.

If I were starting from scratch today, I would definitely not ask a woman
out for a cup of coffee.  I would include her in groups that are already
doing something together.  I would invite her to parties that my wife and I
give.  Later, if we felt comfortable together, I would invite her to dinner
with my wife and anyone she wished to bring.  Only then would I begin to 
consider her as more than just an acquaintance.

Sounds pretty slow and cautious, doesn't it?  But that's what our current 
customs require, so I'll go with it.  There may be other ways to do it, but the
paragraph above works for me.

This topic came to my mind last night, so I added this late reply.

This problem seems happened in all races, just like we Chinese. I myself have
similar experience and still I can't really solve it.

It was some years ago in my church...

I always think that man and woman can have real friendship, not just always
talking love. The girl I met is a nice girl. We had a lot to talk and chat. She
cares me and help me a lot. At that time I was around 21, and she was around 18.
Things were normal, I thought at that time, and I quite enjoy.

Then there is a time I brought my girlfriend back to my church for a gathering.
My girlfriend told me that the girl always starring at her. After the Mass the
girl left while she had agreed to join the gathering. Even her best friend don't
know why.

After this event, she began hate me. Each time she saw my girlfriend, her eyes
showed her anger and annoyance. When I talked to her, she gave me a single
sentense answer and went away. This kind of relationship lasted for around half
year, and then she moved to Australia with her family.

I don't know if she had once fall in love on me (but my girlfriend said yes).

May be she know that things can't change, just before she moved to Australia, our
relationship grew better. At least she never gave me one-sentense answers again.
We still keep in touch with e-mail through internet (she is in college). But I
feel that our relationship can't grow more to what we have in the old days.

I don't know if it happens because she is not mature enough, or we are not
mature enough. Still this is a concern when I deal with girls now.



Mickwid Lam, from Hong Kong.

    re .10, yes, it sounds to me like the problem was that she was in love
    with you, while you just liked her as a friend.  I think this is a
    fairly common problem which leads some people to think that it's not
    possible for men and women to be friends.  But, if both are happy with
    being just friends, and neither one wants more, it can work.
    
    Lorna
    
    (ps - sometimes it's woman who wants more and sometimes it's the man,
          but either way it can cause problems for the friendship.)
    

Actually we have a very traditional way to solve the problem. Sometimes it works,
but sometimes it makes the case worse.

I don't know how to express it in English, but the way is as simple as: change
the relationship from friends to become brother-sister relationship. We usually
said "I always treat you as my little/older sister" or "I always feel that you
are my little/older brother". This is a way which make each other feels easy and
can retain the friendship. But on the other hand this may make either side feel
that one has cheated the other, and hates will grow.

I don't prefer this way to handle. I want friendship, not brother-sister like
relation.


Mickwid.

    I would also agree, that it can cause lots of problems if one falls in
    love with the other, and he/she doesn't. Maybe it's this combination
    for a relationship between men and women that won't work.
    
    If both fall in love, but can handle this, it will be one of the best
    relations that can happen. And for me personal it's easier to call this
    friendship 'brother/sister-relation', so I suppress more easiy every
    tiny thought of loving feeling coming up. And when I get used to it,
    I'm sure for myself that nothing more than friendship will happen.
    And for explanation, I don't have any "family" brothers and sisters,
    but a few "friend-brothers"....... 
    I think that the word brother or sister indicates some familiar and
    intimate feelings, you can talk over your deepest feelings and know that
    the other one wouldn't talk about it to any strangers......I personally
    can open myself better...
    
    But still I know that it's not a brother but a "best friend". 
    
    Interesting, how different people think about this.....
    
    May I ask another question to all the men here? Is it 'better' for you
    to have a friendship with women than with men? For my side I can better
    handle friend-ships with men, I can ask about their feelings and
    thoughts and perhaps use this for my boy-friend or other men. And if I
    have problems with my boy-friend I can ask for their male point of
    view. 
    
    Birgit_that_girl_from_germany
    

    .13
    
    
    >May I ask another question to all the men here? Is it 'better' for you
    >to have a friendship with women than with men? For my side I can better
    
    for me, definitly ! for a starters women are much more cute than men
    are, and they smell better do, and when they laugh , they sound better.
    
    if i to choose , i'll choose women, thank you very much.
    
    hope this helps.
    
    \bye
    \nasser   
    
    
    

	I read most of the replies here and can't really add to the many
	good points people raised.

	I can only say, from experience, that it's possible for men and women
	to be close friends but male friends are also important. At least to
	me anyway ?

	Don't pay any attention to \nasser, he's just a flirt :-)

	- Paul\

    re .15, besides, I think \nasser was answering a different question in
    .14.  I think he was answering the What is your sexual orientation?
    question, and not the Can men and women be friends? question.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Absolutely, men and women can be friends!
    
    One of my dearest friends of 6+ years is a man, and he's 
    given me unconditional friendship!
    
    
    /Kristin

.13>    May I ask another question to all the men here? Is it 'better' for you
>    to have a friendship with women than with men? 

This may deserve a topic of its own, but I suspect there would not be many
replies to it.

Right now *all* of the people I am closest to are women.  For me, right now,
it is definitely better.

What do I make of this?  A very difficult question.  If you like simple answers,
I'll recommend NEXT/UNSEEN.

One answer is that it reflects my current psychological limitations.  I have 
reached the point of being comfortable with women, but not yet with men.  I
am still working on that.

Another is the obvious superiority of women in several areas.  Nasser mentioned
their esthetic superiority in .14.  This seems obvious to me, but heterosexual
women I know don't agree with me, so maybe this is really sexual, as Lorna says.

I also find that women in my culture are better listeners and more accepting
of feelings than men.  Since I am very concerned about my feelings right now,
I prefer the company of women, who can help me in dealing with them.

In my culture, the rivalry between men seems to me to be everpresent.  I 
measure my self against other men, and they measure themselves against me.  
This seems to add an unpleasant dimension to relationships between men.

    Where did Nassar say in .14 that women are more aesthetic than men?  He
    basicaly said they smell better didn't he?
    
    I agree with the prior noters observations for the most part. Women
    generally are in far better touch than men are... but I suspect the
    causes are largely CULTURAL.  Its well know men/boys are taught to be
    be 'tough' and hide their feelings.  
    
    In my experience, its a rare male friend that lets me learn much about
    any of his innermost feelings.  Not so with women, women are much more
    open generally.
    
    Jeff

    re. 19
    
    I find your statements about rivalry with the same sex (measuring one's
    self against them, etc.) interesting.  I've always liked having men
    friends vs. women friends because of the same thing (an
    unconscious/semi-conscious sense of rivalry with other women, and so
    forth).
    
    Anyway, it's nice to see it's not a "just me" kinda thing.
    
    
    Cheers,
    
    kim