Conference quark::mennotes

    Re .0: What matters is where _you_ draw the line, and how willing you
    both are to discuss your feelings on this matter... Some folks' lines
    are in much different places (and are much more - or less - firm) than
    other folks' lines.
    
    Question: Do you like to go out dancing? Do the two of you go out
    dancing together? If not, perhaps she's choosing this way of enjoying
    something that she likes without putting pressure on you to do it, too.
    (I'm not much of a dancer myself, so if I were in a relationship with
    someone who loved it, I wouldn't mind too much if he opted to spend his
    nights out squiring other women around the floor. If, however, he
    started spending more time at this than with me, or if his interest in
    one of his dancing partners seemed to become something more...
    personal... then I'd want to, shall we say, re-visit the issue.)
    
    Definitely sounds like something you'd better sit down and talk about:
    find out what "monogamy" means to her, tell her what it means to you
    (like, do you expect her never to dance with another man again?), and
    find out whether you can come to some agreement.
    
    [There _is_ always the risk that she's saying, by her actions, that she
    doesn't want as close a relationship as you want - but if that's the
    case, surely it's better to find out sooner than later. And if that
    isn't the case, it's better to work out your differences now than to
    let them build to where they might cause a nasty fight.]
    
    -b

    re .0, I always thought that having a monogamous relationship meant
    that a person wouldn't have sex with anyone other than their SO.  So,
    unless she winds-up leaving the bar with people, and fooling around, it
    seems as though, ideally, there shouldn't be a problem.
    
    Lorna
    

    As you can see by the first two answers, people's ideas of monogamy
    differ.  What's also clear is: this is a question you should be asking
    her, not us.  Until the two of you decide what is is both of you find
    acceptable and non-acceptable in the context of your relationship, you 
    will continue to have communication problems.
    
    					andrew

    
    re .0
    
>    in my thinking of what monogamy is?  When I bring this point up and
>    tell her that it bothers me she flies off the handle swearing that it
>    is  completely innocent and that I am being totally irrational.  It may
>    well be  innocent, but I still am having difficulty dealing with the
>    situation.
    
    Could be that you want a much more manogomous relationship than she
    does.  It appears that both of you are tryig to have your cake and
    eat it to.  Onething that is apparent, she doesn't seem to care 
    much about your feelings on the matter.  You deserve better (everyone
    does).  My take on the relationship (admittedly based on very sketchy
    information) is that if the relationship continues, there will be 
    (many) other situatios for you to like or lump. 
    
    fred();

    
    I think you're confusing monogamy with exclusivity.  Monogamy means
    you don't sleep with anyone else.  Exclusivity means that you don't
    date others or broadcast that you are "available".  While I would not
    call what she is doing "dating", I would say she is giving others the 
    impression that she is available.  
    
    Would she find it as "innocent" if you were going out and buying other 
    women drinks on a regular basis?  Dinner?  What if the two of you ended 
    up at the same bar and you bought a drink for one of her friends, but 
    not her?  What if the two of you were out together and some guy wanted
    to buy her a drink?  If all of that is okay with her, I'd call the two
    of you "friends".
    
    While I would be very offended in her shoes if you objected to my
    behavior on the basis of "monogamy", you may want to discuss with her
    how "exclusive" the two of you are.  Then again, she may just not have
    thought much about it -- particularly if all her girlfriends are single
    and unattached, this may be an established tradition she hasn't
    examined too closely.  Ultimately, it's not so much what she does but
    how much it bothers you and how she reacts to that that's the issue.
    
        Sharon
    

    Yeah, what Sharon said.  Thanks for the clarification (if for
    no one else, for me).  
    
    A goal of mine is to get into a long-term, intimate, exclusive,
    monogamous relationship. None of those terms are sysnoyms for 
    any of the others.  They complement each other, but one can't
    be substituted for the other.

	Sitting around talking with a couple of guys is not my idea of a
	date. My wife used to work in a group that regularly went out for
	lunch. She was the only woman in the group. I'd hardly call that a
	date. Now if a women goes out for lunch with *one* guy and has 
	dinner and dancing that *might* be a date. But it would still depend
	on their relationship. My wife has gone out for dinner with my brother
	and even long time male friends. I wouldn't call it a date and I'd
	still call our relationship monogomous.

	It may be that you are making much ado about nothing. What do you
	do when you go out with the guys? Refuse to talk with women? Would
	you refuse a request to dance? Or an offer to buy you a drink?

	To me dating is more than just being in the same place and doing the
	same things with people of the interesting sex. 

			Alfred

    re .7, "the interesting sex"?  You mean men, right?  :-) :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .8 For you the "interesting sex" is men. For me it's women.
    There are men here for whom it's other men. In this day and age
    saying "the opposite sex" seems to leave people out. :-)
    
    				Alfred

    Her strong reaction to your questioning her about going out and about
    could be she feels you don't trust her. Sounds like you've reached the
    infamous "time" that requires a clearer definition of your relationship.
    She also may be interpreting your feelings incorrectly. Your inquiries
    could be taken as "the beginning of possesive and controlling
    behaviour". I'd just lay it out on the table and see how she responds
    to an open and sincere discussion about where she thinks things are
    going. Be careful though because if you come on too strong you may
    scare her away. Give it your best shot. It's a risk but you may find
    out exactly where she's coming from and you may or may not like the 
    results. Life is too short for games so you could be saving yourself a
    lot of time and potential grief in the process. If she's any kind of
    person she'll at least respect you for the efforts.
    

    Play her game. And see if she what she says. If she starts flapping her
    arms reguarding you spending money on some bar fly, then you understand
    that this is a two sided sword that is cutting in her direction. Thus
    you then stake in the ground of either or routine. Like she cuts the
    crap or you cut her loose.
    
    I had a girlfriend like that once. She wanted to go out and date some
    old flame. And wanted me to hang out by the home fires as she dated
    this guy on New Years. I told her I was going to go skiing, she flapped
    her arms because she felt that some ski bunny might pick me up.:)
    
    Need less to say, she went out with the old flame, supposingly as
    friends. I went skiing. She can now date who ever she wants. Simple.
    She wants her freedom, she doesn't want a real commitment. If she is
    going out with her friends for a woman talk fine. If she dances with
    someone else and has a brew on them. I will concur, its a date. And
    Its not worth you to turn your stomach over. Find something else to
    do when she is out. Or find someone else who will get the message
    that if you want to be serious. You mean it. 
    
    Perhaps she will come to your understanding. And if she doesn't so
    what. She probaby didn't want a serious commitment.
    
    Peace, Love, and barflys
    

I've never been a believer in "tit for tat" in relationships - it usually
ends up with hurt feelings on everyone's part.

Anonymous' girlfriend may be behaving this way, not because she's looking for
some side-action, but because she enjoys the attention and it makes her feel
wanted and good about herself.  It doesn't matter how much attention "A" 
lavishes on her, some people feel a need for validation that can't be 
met by just one person.  Some men might enjoy this, being proud that their
choice in partner is being validated by other men, but many others would
feel jealousy instead.

As others have said, what we have here is a mismatch of expectations that has
to be resolved before the relationship can progress.  And perhaps the
resolution is that the relationship should dissolve.  If it does so, I hope
it can be on an amicable basis, realizing that it's not any one person's
"fault".

				Steve

    
    I know a guy who has spent the last 40 years watching his wife
    have one affair after another.  I have a brother who, after five
    years, is still waiting for his ex to "see the light" and come
    back.  It takes two to Tango as they say.  I find that one person
    will rarely change to fit another's needs.  If she "needs" the 
    attention to massage her ego, I'd be wondering just what I was
    getting into if the relationship _did_ succeed.

    fred();

    .13 I will concur. Is it worth the wait? Waiting for what? More pain?
    There are lots of women out there who have the same value set like
    yourself. Either you stake the ground with you demands, or you pack
    your emotional bag and go some place else. 
    
    A good book to read, is Philip Roths "Letting Go". I would say in this
    day and age it should be required reading before entering any kind of
    meaningful/meaningless relationship.:)

 I think you have to ask yourself if your SO's "Whats the Big Deal" attitude
 is something you can accept and understand. You also have to take a good look
 at the reason she may feel this way also. Peer pressure of her girlfriends could
 have a lot to do with it. Everyone has their own limit on what they consider
 acceptable behavior of their SO's in social situations and not feel that mutual
 respect is being violated. Ie. Ok to dance with someone as long as its not
 a close contact slow dance. Unfortunately your limits and hers may differ
 greatly. So you have to ask yourself if you can be more flexible don't try to
 control her behavior. If you cannot change your feelings on this then maybe its
 time to find a SO who feels the same way you do. Be careful that your limits are
 based on respect for each other and not on jealous, possessive or insecure
 feelings on either part for these negative feelings will cause problems in any
 relationship.

 Neil...

    Re 95.5 - Exclusivity is what I meant to say. 
    
    Having spoken with this person her response was, " I am not going to
    defend  myself or my actions.  If you don't like it then too bad.". She
    also stated that, "I was a F***ing A****le and a fool and that I was
    making a big mistake!". My response, "Well if you don't respect my
    feelings enough to even discuss them and whatever feelings we can
    discuss are wrong then we really don't have  much to discuss at all.". 
    
    Well,  where do you go from there?  I don't believe in tit for tat, 
    the old I'll show you,  that never seemed to get anyone anywhere.  It
    is not my  intention to wave other people in her face hoping that that
    triggers  the appropriate response.  There have been a lot of
    situations in this  relationship that have been - We'll do it my way
    and if not you can just take  a walk.  I grow weary of hearing that
    everything will be on her terms and that what ever I think is, while
    interesting, superfluous or even more damaging -  invalid.  
    
    It reminds me of a song from the Joy Division - Love will tear us
    apart, again

    
    re .16
    
    >    Well,  where do you go from there?  I don't believe in tit for tat, 
    
    IMNSHO don't walk----run!  You have to start looking at the
    relationship for what it is, not for what you would like it to be.
    What you are asking is "How do I make her see it my way"?  The
    answer is--you can't.  The only attitude that you have any control
    over is yours. Your chances of changing her's is 1)slim, 2) none.
    Find yourself a woman who can appreciate what you have to offer.
    
    fred();

.16>    Well,  where do you go from there?

Out the door.

At least that's where I'd go.  I have no use for a relationship in which my 
feelings are not considered.

Once safely on the other side, I might ask myself if I am being completely
honest in the story I am telling myself.  My story is

	We agree to have some kind of relationship.  She goes on acting
	like the relationship does not exist.  I tell her how I feel and
	she dismisses what I say.  I wait and tell her again, same response.

There are a few questions I might ask myself about this story

	Did we really mutually agree about this relationship?
	Did she accept it in her own words?  Or say yes?  Or just nod?
	What did she really do?  How would it sound to a third party?
	What did I really say to her?  How would this sound to a third party?
	Did I really give her a second chance to respond?
	Did I bring it up when we had a good shot at discussing it calmly?

If I were comfortable with all these answers, I'd thank all the gods I know
for helping me avoid real trouble.

If I were not too comfortable, I might try to learn some things of value for
a future relationship.

I agree with Steve that tit-for-tat generally does not work in intimate 
relationships.

        but may be his girl friend is having some deep emotional feelings and
    trouble and that is the way she is showing it off, by going to the bar
    and drinking with the guys?

    may be there is still hope for the dude in .0 if they like go to 
    one of these marriage counselors but for the people who are not married
    yet, may be it turns out that his girl friend want something out of
    the relation that she can't or dont know how to ask him for it?

    i read stuff like this, i think love and understanding will cure 
    all the problems in the relation and i think that if .0 finds
    out the roots of the situations things will be clear and he might
    be able to save the relation and live happy ever after.

    i dont think .0 should be too hasty to drop it, after all these
    2 people must at one point have loved each others otherwise they
    would not have been with each others to start with.

    and remember, true love can do magic. it can move the mountains
    and drain the sea, so dont give up, and dont do any thing fool you
    regret for the rest of your life.
    
    \bye
    \nasser

 Reply .16

 Time to move on I'd say! Remember it takes 2 to make a relationship work
 and it seems like it may have become a bit onesided. Anyway good luck in
 your decision and if you "opt out" keep in mind what your reasons were and
 don't let a little loneliness cloud your thinking.

 Neil...

I never seem to get in quick enough on these to get my two cents in; I 
agree with most of what's been said already, however.

If it's "leaving time," I prescribe "Change of Heart" by Tom Petty and 
the Heartbreakers.  Repeat as required.  Good cheap therapy.  :-)

.19>        but may be his girl friend is having some deep emotional feelings and
>    trouble and that is the way she is showing it off, by going to the bar
>    and drinking with the guys?

Could be true, but it doesn't matter if she is not ready to deal with it.  By
the reported conversations, she likes things just the way they are.

>    i read stuff like this, i think love and understanding will cure 
>    all the problems in the relation and i think that if .0 finds
>    out the roots of the situations things will be clear and he might
>    be able to save the relation and live happy ever after.

If.

And it's a big if, indeed.  He and she must both understand and accept the
root of their behavior, and accept responsibility for the way they will behave
in the future.  This is possible, if there is a lot of love on both sides.
Again based on the reported conversations, the love here is one-sided.

    Love and understanding is a two way street. The give and take. She
    doesnt sound like much of the giver. Love and understanding someone who
    had a problem as such will not work out as a long term relationship.
    
    It is very easy to get into a marriage or relationship. Its hard to get
    out of such serious commitments. Our .0 dude should count his lucky
    stars that there is no commitment. No children (mentioned), and
    hopefully no common property that will cause him fincial hardships.
    
    The ball was placed in her court. She returned it with a nasty slice.
    Its his call now. Asin walk, or deal with "Future Crap" or "As the
    Stomach Churns". My thoughts are like all the others, run, don't walk
    to your nearest exit. And as your going out the door. Slam the door
    real hard as so it does not ever open again. 
     

When it comes right down to it, it's about trust.

If the basenote author doesn't feel that he can trust the woman he's dating
in these situations, then there are two options.  Change yourself so that you
can feel comfortable trusting her in these situations or get out of the 
relationship.  Only you know if you can trust her or not....just remember, 
a long term, committed relationship has be to built on trust.

I, for one, am the kind of woman that is very friendly.  When I'm in a
relationship, and I go out with my female friends, I do not actively solicit
men, but if a man wants to buy my a drink, sit/talk with me, dance with 
me, whatever, I'll accept that attention and casually flirt back.  However, if
I'm committed in a relationship with someone, you can bet that I'm NOT going to
jeopardize the relationship.  This is the type of person I am -- friendly
and flirtatious.  So, I have to be relationship with a man who can trust me
to be 100% committed to him and feel "okay" with the fact that it is how I am.

Women love attention, we love to be told we're beautiful, we love to have 
men shower us with gifts....men love to be flirted with, they love to feel
desireable, they love to feel important...  This exchange can happen and
still have both people being totally committed to their respective partners.
Imagine how pumped up someone can get on this...and how they KNOW they 
are going home to make love to the person they REALLY care about.  

Whether this is true or not for this woman (the basenoter's girlfriend), I 
don't know.  Maybe she's NOT committed to the basenoter....maybe she is.
I just know that if I was dating someone who knew I was the very friendly,
flirtatious sort and didn't trust me to honor our relationship when I wasn't
with him....I probably wouldn't last long in that relationship...

kath

    
    It might not be all that bad.  You've received some "my way or the
    highway" messages, but in my experience that usually translates to
    "you're threatening my independence", or sometimes "you've crossed my
    boundaries of what's right and wrong".
    
    In this case, you're essentially giving the same message.  Depending
    on the delivery of it and her past experiences, it may have sounded 
    really possessive and distrustful to her, in which case I'm not
    surprised she responded this way.
    
    If both of you have a need to be "in control", I would expect to see
    this sort of clashes a lot.  (Picture two porcupines).  If this is 
    the case, threats and ultimatums will not work well.  To communicate,
    you'll probably have to be very calm, kind, and non-threatening.  If 
    things are otherwise going well between you, it may indicate a fear of 
    committment on her part  (i.e., she may subconsciously be provoking 
    a fight with you to avoid getting hurt, if she associates intimate 
    relationships with future pain).
    
    	Sharon
    

    Gee, I'm usually a read-only person, but in .16 there was a line that
    really bothers me:
    
      "She also stated that, "I was a F***ing A****le and a fool
       and that I was making a big mistake."
    
    Well, that kind of says it all to me.  I can't find any respect between
    her to him from that line.  Maybe its time to find some self-esteem and
    re-evaluate the situation.
    
    Faith_S

    re .26, sometimes people say mean things in anger, that they don't
    really mean, though.  I don't know if that was the case here, but it's
    something to keep in mind.
    
    Lorna
    

        good point \Lorna.

    when i get angry at something, i count from 1 to 10 first.

    it always helps.

    if you think you have bad timber, then make that from 1 to 20.

    many people say things they dont mean when they angry. 

    \bye
    \nasser

    Our .0 dude is a lucky lad. He isn't married to this woman. And that he
    does not have children by her. Or to what we might be reading between
    the lines here.
    
    For its too easy to get into a long term relationship with a person who
    is on the short term ideas. Then go thru the hell of a divorce. 
    
    .23 & .24 have some great ideas. But the problem is that .0 is serious
    about commitment. And his girlfriend isn't. Sooooooo. 
    
    Laura. Yes. Bears say they love you with a slap. Ask Bongo The bear.:)

>But the problem is that .0 is serious about commitment. And his girlfriend
>isn't. Sooooooo. 
 
Many people in this world don't value the meaning of the word "commitment."
In fact, many people have never TRULY been committed to anything in their 
lives....



kat

    if one loves another , really like loves them, then no need to worry about
    commitment. imean becuase it comes along by itself without having to say
    and think about it and negotiate it like it was some real esate deal
    or something.
    
    plus, true love means never to say you are sorry. 
    
    the important thing is if .0 loves his girlfriend or not, if that is
    there every thing else will work out, but if she done love him,
    there is nothing he can do about it, and it is water under a bridge.
    
    \nasser
    

    >plus, true love means never to say you are sorry.
    
    Sorry dear, I never love you. I am running off with my soul mate I met
    last night at a bar. One of many, but he was a field of 125 men. And
    now.... yes! Now I will leave you. And take the children.
    
    <end of melodrama>

    re .33, well, you never know when you might meet a soulmate!  I met a
    soulmate one night at a bar, in the summer of '71, and we were married
    for over 12 yrs.   (Course I didn't have a husband and kids at the
    time!)  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    I've had a limited experience with this situation. She flirted around for
  a week but there wasn't much I could do. If I pushed her hard then I would
  push her away. My instinct was to push hard though. I tried the reverse tactic
  (doing nothing) because I had nothing to lose.

    That was 22 years ago. We were engaged shortly after that week and we're
  still married. She was afraid of commitment and needed the last fling. It
  wasn't easy for me at the time but I'm glad I handled the situation the way 
  I did.

    Our situations may not be exactly alike but similar enough for me to suggest
  that the base-noter look at their relationship to see if there is a future 
  (this incident aside). He should know this deep down inside. Follow
  your instincts you have nothing to lose. If it is too much for you then walk
  away. She'll reach out to you if she is afraid of losing you.


    - Bob

    whats a sole mate?
    
    i know what sole is, and what mate is, but i mean what does sole mate
    means? is this different from love?
    
    iam confused now, you mean i have to love a woman and also be her "sole
    mate" also? love is not enough?
    
    \nasser
    

    re .36, love is all you need, \nasser.
    
    Lorna
    

 >     whats a sole mate?

    Well, if sole are anything like salmon, then it's a good bet that
    spawning comes into the picture sooner or later...

Hey Nasser, it SOUL mate.  

I define it as the woman without whose presence my heart would turn to
dust. 

    It was once told to me that there is someone out there who you loved in
    your former life. And/or if your into re-in-carnation (sp) a SO that 
    travels the universe with you. Someone you have met and lost and
    now have found to join in what ever level of commitment you want
    to call. Marriage, non-marrital commitment or common law, open
    marriage. What ever.....;) 
    
    I once had someone tell me this. I fell out of my sneakers and 
    could not believe what I had heard. 
    
    I have clearly heard many reasons why someone didn't like me from
    my hair being combed the wrong direction to the stars are in
    retrograde.... Geeze Louise! 
    
    Well it time to go put my daughter to bed. She is standing over my 
    shoulder asking quetions.:0)
    
    
      j

            <<< Note 95.36 by STAR::ABBASI "i like to take naps" >>>
                               -< ok, i'll bite >-

>>    whats a sole mate?
  


   It's a fish you really like... ;-)

Reply to several previous, now buried under the fish jokes.

If this were my problem, I wouldn't be thinking about whether I can trust her 
or how much I love her.

I'd be thinking about how much she loves me and whether her idea of love 
included any respect for me and my feelings.

If she loved and respected me, then I could accept the behavior in the base
note, and probably more in the short run.

If not, then I would not care whether she hit the bars or not.

>I'd be thinking about how much she loves me and whether her idea of love 
>included any respect for me and my feelings.


How accurate can we be, though, trying to figure out what another person 
is thinking/feeling?  When I spend my time doing this, 99% of the time, I'm 
wrong, and all I do is get an ulcer from it.

I think it's important to work with the facts, go with what our heart feels,
and really be honest with ourselves.  We're the only ones we can truly 
100% understand.

Can I or can I not live with feeling this way around this person?  Do I 
trust them?  Can I commit 100% to them and never look back?  Is this the
vision of the relationship I want to be in?  If the answer is "no", then it's
time to re-evaluate.....I really don't think it's worth it to try and figure
someone else....it's hard enough trying to figure myself out!  

kath

    Why does it have to be an all or nothing deal?  Why can't people enjoy
    dating people who also go out and do things with other people?
    
    Maybe the woman in question enjoys seeing the guy in .0, but maybe she
    isn't ready for a commitment, and if not, so what?  Can't people date
    without immediately having to commit to not seeing anybody else?  Maybe
    she enjoys seeing him, but likes to see other people, too?  If no
    promises have been made, why is this a crime?
    
    I'm sick of the all or nothing syndrome.  Why can't people be free to
    do what they want (as long as they aren't breaking the law - stealing,
    killing, etc).  May this woman doesn't want to be in a couple
    relationship, and, if not, why can't the guy just see her every once in
    awhile, but what they do when they're not together is their own
    business.
    
    Lorna
    

RE:       <<< Note 95.44 by VAXWRK::STHILAIRE "Food, Shelter & Diamonds" >>>

    That would be fine if the author of .0 were comfortable with not being in
    a comitted relationsip. However it seems that he DOES want a comittment,
    so for him to let her see other people goes against what he wants.

    Some people feel the exact opposite way you do, and think people should
    concentrate on seeing only one person at a time.

    And when you put two people together that have opposite feelings in this
    regard, it's like mixing matter with antimatter.

    - Jim

    As Jim said, this isn't about "all or nothing."  It's about a mismatch
    of expectations.   Neither choice is inherently better than the other
    (and I don't think anyone has implied that) -- as long as both choose to
    abide by the same set of expectations, whichever they choose.

    
    
    For example:
    
    I know that I could trust my wife "out with the girls".  If I couldn't
    I wouldn't have married her.  However,  I also know that if I asked
    her not to go, she wouldn't.
    
    fred();

RE: .44

Lorna...I'm not sure where your comment is coming from.  The basenote 
author said that his relationship with this woman was "monogamous."  This
statement is what is leading this discussion.

There is certainly nothing wrong with casual/recreational dating where 
people date each other, yet are free to date other people as well.  I'm
in the situation right now where I'm recreationally dating -- I'm free to 
date anyone that I want to, at any time...I've made no commitments to anyone.

I think the real issue of concern here is about common understanding about
what the level of commitment to a relationship is.  I do believe that it's
dishonest to lead someone to believe that you're in a committed relationship
with them if you are, in reality, just recreationally dating them.

I just ended a relationship of almost 1.5 years in which I didn't find out, 
until near the end that he was dating me "recreationally" and I was 
"committed" to him.  Even though we were both monogamous during our
relationship, the mind-set in each person's head about the seriousness of
the relationship is completely different.  I learned a real lesson about
never committing too early, and to be completely clear about what I want
and where I stand.

Neither "type" of relationship is "wrong" or "bad."  People just need to be
very clear with each other where they stand....or it is deception.

The basenoter seems to want a committed relationship with this woman...if
she's not interested in that, he needs to decide to date her recreationally
and give up his discomfort with this situation, or take himself out of
the relationship all together.  It's not "all or nothing", he has several
options, he just needs to decide which one he wants to take -- if any.



kath

        .48

    but \Kath, may be .0 is asking for something his girl friend is not yet
    ready to decide, may be his girl friends like him but she wants more
    time? i agree with \Lorna on this, people want to know where things
    are from day one, instead of just enjoying their each company and let
    the dice fall where it will.

    plus, this is depends on who loves the other more, i think in relations
    it is the only who loves the other more than the other loves them back
    is the one who ends up giving more and taking less, but that is the way
    it seems to be. almost always in relation one could love the other more.

    in closing, i think .0 is pushing too hard to make his girl friend
    decide, if .0 just relaxes the pressure off a little may be his girl
    fried would be more cooperating.

    if you love some one then lett them free, if they fly back, then they
    really love you, if they dont come back, then they did not love you.

    true love is where no asking is done but giving flow.
    
    \nasser

    But nassar, like it was said about several notes before. If .0 cannot
    take the heat of his kitchen it his option to either get out or hang in
    till things get better. Not ours, nor laura's. It seems that Laura is
    flapping her arms when men think like women and relationships. Dump em
    if they don't work. The reality is that our .0 dude is real lucky. He
    has not married this woman, has no children (so far to this
    discussion), and has nothing more than a relationship that he is not
    happy with. He is very lucky indeed that he can make this choice with
    out having to live, like some of us, in their car over it. Or sleep in
    some flop house over it. 
    
    It is toooo dam easy for someone to make the "I do till death till us
    part" commitment and not have a dam clue of what the hell they are
    about to get in. And If I were .0 dude I would be most choooozy about
    this. For from the sounds of the back lash of it, he has a problem if
    she got into this relationship, and was not commited from the heart and
    head.
    
    The .0 dude is lucky that he doesn't have to pay maintence/alimony and
    support his girlfriend and her beaus to live in his house. See, I am
    going over board with my discript. But this IS the road that could
    possibly be based upon his girlfriend. But, again, who the hell knows!
    She might settle down next month and be the wife and mother of the
    centry.
    
    

    
    soul mate is someone i'd move to {gasp!!} massachusetts for.

    .51
    
    \rah, you must REALLY be in love to move to {gasp} mashsshuates for someone.
    
    i always get the goos when i hear love stories like this.
    
    \nasser
         

    
    calm down, nasser, its only theoretical.

    

    re .50

    I have to agree with George on this one.  If I were looking to start
    any kind of long-term relationship, I'd certainly think twice about
    doing it with someone who would tell me that I was an a** h*** for 
    being uncomfortable with her going out drinking and dancing with other
    men.  A mate should be someone who will guard your back, not someone
    you have to guard your back from.

    Don't get me wrong.  I think there are a lot of good women out there.
    I also lost a lot of hide finding out that there are a lot that just
    plain ain't worth the trouble. 

    fred();

    Dear Anon,
    
    Do you enjoy going out to bars and dancing?  If not and she does, I can
    see why she would enjoy going out with the girls and dancing with the
    appropriate partners for that bar.  Frank doesn't dance(vertically ;-)
    doesn't like bars with dance music, and isn't particularly interested
    in learning how.  
    
    For me to dance is to live and to live is to dance, so once in a while
    I go out with a girl friend and dance for a few hours, yes with other
    men.  I don't go home with them and I am and have been totally
    committed to Frank for 9 years.  I don't question him when he heads off
    "with the boys" for whatever it is men do when their partners aren't
    around.  If the situation were reversed, I would trust him as well.  
    
    If I were confronted on my dancing enjoyment, I would probably have
    said something more firm then my way or the highway, regardless of how
    much I loved the other person.  I've been in a controlling, exclusive 
    "relationship" and the emotional abuse started working its way into 
    physical abuse before I regained my senses and ran.  
    
    Meg

Meg,

You say

>    If I were confronted on my dancing enjoyment, I would probably have
>    said something more firm then my way or the highway, regardless of how
>    much I loved the other person.

Could you give me a clearer idea of what you would say?  Would it be 
something like

.16>    Having spoken with this person her response was, " I am not going to
>    defend  myself or my actions.  If you don't like it then too bad.". She
>    also stated that, "I was a F***ing A****le and a fool and that I was
>    making a big mistake!". My response, "Well if you don't respect my
>    feelings enough to even discuss them and whatever feelings we can
>    discuss are wrong then we really don't have  much to discuss at all.". 

as reported by the base noter?

Or would you have respected his feelings?  Would you have discussed how much 
dancing means to you, and discussed how he feels about it?  Would you have 
worked with him on a solution which would give you the dancing you want, and 
would have given him what he wants, assuming that is something other than 
'no more dancing'?

To me, respect and working together are much more important than who dances 
with whom.

.55> I've been in a controlling, exclusive 
>    "relationship" and the emotional abuse started working its way into 
>    physical abuse before I regained my senses and ran. 

I share your concerns about the escalation of emotional abuse.  But the way I
read .0 and .16, she is trying to control and abuse him.  She is judging his 
feelings, and deciding which he is allowed to express.  When he expresses 
feelings she has decided are "wrong", she verbally abuses him.  I would expect 
that if the relationship continues, this emotional and verbal abuse will 
continue.

As always, my reading of the situation is based on just a few paragraphs, so
may have little or nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

    re .56
    
    My reaction to being confronted about wanting to go out dancing would
    probably depend on how I was approached.  
    
    If I was approached with something on the lines of:
    
    "Would it be possible for us to spend a little more time on X night, I
    really would enjoy more of your company.", It would give us a starting
    point for what was bothering him about my enjoying dancing.  
    
    If it were more on the lines of:
    
    "You're never home and you are always going out with these people you
    don't really care about me do you?" My first reaction would be setting
    a danger flag in my mind and asking what in the seven names of the
    goddess was his problem.
    
    If it were:
    
    "I don't want you going out with x and Y and dancing with those strange
    men."  "Or I don't like x and y" (the women I go out with), or "What
    are you doing dancing and drinking in bars all hours?"  Oor anything
    else that would make me feel like there were ownership rules being
    invoked F****g A*****e might be the least of what I might say.  I
    would most likely disconnect all contact with that person for a day or
    two until I was cooled down enough.  I don't have commetment issues, but
    I do have control issues, and to me this would be an attempt to control
    my behavior and me.  This sets the same flag as "If you really loved me
    you would/wouldn't do X.  It tells me that the person has no repect for
    themselves or me. 
    
    Meg   

    re meg,

    It appears to me that you are saying that you would not let happen to
    you what the female in .0 appears to expect the male in .0 to accept.
    That is, a one-way controlling relationship.  She appears, on what
    little information I have, to have no problem with an abusive/controling 
    relationship--so long as _she_ is the one in control.

    fred();

    re .58, how do you know the woman in .0 is abusive and controlling?
    Maybe she's just living her life the way she wants to, but the guy in
    .0 would like an exclusive relationship with her.  Maybe she said what
    she said to him because she wants to get rid of him.  All we heard is
    one side of the story.
    
    Lorna
    

    Not knowing how one person has expressed that this bothers him, I can't
    say for sure.  Looking over the base entry again, doesn't give me
    enough information on how she is being aproached about the "bothering"
    him.  I did say how I would react given a few scenarios. 
    
     
    
    To me, if one person in a relationship is trying to control another
    person, it is time for both people to look at the relationship, and
    probably decide it is time for redesign ala DECstyle. (dump it and
    start over again)
    
    Meg

        re  .59

    I don't think I am jumping to any more conclusion than you are. 
    I've _already_ stated that my opinion was based on sketchy evidence.
    But given my scenario _or_ yours, if I were the male in .0 I'd be
    very cautious about getting into a long-term relationship with the
    female in question.

    In fact, I _have_ been in similar situation to the male in .0. 
    She had a physical appearance that men dream about when they look
    at the swimsuit ads and she was jalapenoes in the sack and what my 
    ex didn't do to me she nearly finished.  Even so, when she broke off
    the relationship it hurt like hell.   And if God ever did me a favor
    it was that he didn't give me what I asked for. 
    
    fred();

        re .60

>    Not knowing how one person has expressed that this bothers him, I can't
>    say for sure.  Looking over the base entry again, doesn't give me
>    enough information on how she is being approached about the "bothering"
>    him.  I did say how I would react given a few scenarios. 

    The go re-read .16.

>    To me, if one person in a relationship is trying to control another
>    person, it is time for both people to look at the relationship, and
>    probably decide it is time for redesign ala DECstyle. (dump it and
>    start over again)

    On this we probably agree more than disagree.  I just don't think men
    should have to put up with it any more than women should.

    However, I'd be _very_ cautious about redesigning _anything_ ala
    DECstyle ;^}.
    
    fred();

    	Re Basenoter,
    
    	Considering the "accept it, change it or leave" options that
    we havve have - pretty much by definition - in a relationship, it
    sounds to me like you only have "leave" as a valid choice.
    
    	You obviously dont accept it. You tried to change it by discussing
    your feelings with her, and got the "F***ing "A***ole" response
    as _the_ indication of her considerations. Sounds like a cold
    shot to me...
    
    	Re .24 -
    
    >Imagine how pumped up someone can get on this...and how they KNOW they 
    >are going home to make love to the person they REALLY care about.  
    
    	I think there's still a bit of deception and dishonesty in this.
    Unless of course your mate doesnt particularly care where your "pumpin"
    came from - as long as he gets the heat!  
    
    	I just see shades of "Married with Children" in the idea - A
    portrayal of Al Bundy making love with his wife - but has a Playboy
    Centerfold spread open on the headboard - and she doesnt care -
    possibly, in that she has her own fantasy going or whatever.
    
    	Joe 

	I read to .32 and then skipped the rest so I hope this hasn't been
	said.

	In .26 a concern was raised over the line ...

	   "She also stated that, "I was a F***ing A****le and a fool
       	    and that I was making a big mistake."

	and that this demonstrated little or no respect. I read that differently.
	She's saying 'you're making a big mistake', I think because you're
	jealous, and that 'you are a blah blah' because you're going to blow
	out on the relationship.

	I'd sit down and examine what piece, or part, of the situation you
	don't feel comfortable with. Once you've identified that you can 
	either start to deal with the problem or decide to walk. But be careful
	you can't walk from every relationship or situation when there's
	a problem or situation that you are having trouble dealing with.You 
	can't stop your girlfriend, or wife, from talking with other men, or
	accepting a drink or two, or dancing.

	Trust her.

	- Paul\

.64>	I read to .32 and then skipped the rest so I hope this hasn't been
>	said.

Something similar was said, but I think it was before .32.

.64>	and that this demonstrated little or no respect. I read that differently.

Your reading could be right.  If I were the base noter, I'd be willing to 
test it.  See below.

.64>	I'd sit down and examine what piece, or part, of the situation you
>	don't feel comfortable with. Once you've identified that you can 
>	either start to deal with the problem or decide to walk. But be careful

So I sit down by myself until I understand what I want, and am ready 
to assert my wants in a non-controlling way.  Then I say to her "When you ...
then I feel ... because ... occurs."  Then I listen to her reaction to this.
After a while, I say "It seems to me that we have a problem here.  Do you
want to work on it together?"  If your reading is correct, she will respond
positively.  If my reading is correct, she will respond negatively.

.64>	Trust her.

At this point, I think the base noter can only trust her to behave as she has 
been behaving.  If that's what he wants, then I guess he knows where to find it.

.60>    To me, if one person in a relationship is trying to control another
>    person, it is time for both people to look at the relationship, and
>    probably decide it is time for redesign

I can understand why you say this.  We all want to be free of unreasonable
control.  

Personally, I think that every relationship involves a certain minimal level
of mutual control.  If I am in a relationship, then I should have some 
respect for my partners needs and feelings, just as my partner should have 
some respect for mine.  So we are both subject to some control.

The problem comes when we need to understand what is unreasonable control.  If
we are both willing to talk about it, we can probably come to an understanding.
If only one of us is willing to talk, then the relationship is probably over.

Re.65

>	If I am in a relationship, then I should have some respect for my 
>	partners needs and feelings, just as my partner should have some 
>	respect for mine. 

	If one is a jealous partner should this still apply ?

	If one partner wants more from a 'dating' relationship than the other,
	should this still apply ?

	- Paul\

    Re.66             
    
    > If I am in a relationship, then I should have some respect for
    > my partners needs and feelings, just as my partner should have
    > some respect for mine.
    >> If one is a jealous partner should this still apply ?
    
    What a complicated question - really.... 
    
    IMHO:...
    If one of the partners is jealous there has to be a reason for it that
    should be addressed by the couple.  Does the jealous partner feel that
    something of value might be taken away from them?  Does the jealous
    partner feel that their partner doesn't respect their feelings? Does
    the jealous partner feel that the flirting is destroying trust in the
    relationship?
    
    I know for me, in my significant relationships I like to feel valued
    and loved.  If I don't get that as a general feeling in the
    relationship, the flirting would be the last straw, further
    destroying trust in the other person and certainly not a positive
    contribution to my life. If I did feel valued and loved in the
    relationship, the flirting would not be a threat to me and hence
    inconsequential.
    
    I believe people that are involved in a relationship and flirt are
    people that just need a lot of positive feedback to feed their ego. 
    And if they flirt knowing that it hurts their significant other's 
    feelings then they are really egotistical!
    (Like I said IMHO!!)
    
    /Kim

    re.66
    
    Yes and yes.
    
    If there isn't 'some respect for [each] partners needs and feelings'
    then I would deem the relationship dysfunctional.
    
    If one is a jealous partner, one should accept that having all of
    one's needs met in this regard may not be entirely met and has a
    right to expect some accomodation.
    
    If one wants more than another from a relationship, ditto.
    
    I believe that 'some respect' equates to compromise and/or give and
    take, not capitulation on the part of one or the other.
    
    That being said, it takes more than respect. Not all compromises are
    satisfactory to one or both of the individuals involved.
    
    Not all relationships should continue.
    
      Annie
    
    

    Been in a few relationships with similar problems and by the replies
    there are quite a few others who have gone the same route you are 
    travelling. My belief is you should run for the door. Since she does
    not seem concerned about what you think or your feelings, it isn't
    going to get any better. You have tried your best. Move on. There
    are many other women out there looking for a serious relationship.
    Make a clean break. This looks like nothing but problems for you.

.66> And your opinion on this - stonehard ?

No, I would expect to be flexible.  Maybe even accepting some lack of 
communication if my partner were really uncomfortable with it.

As I've said before, I try to think about "should" questions only in the first 
person.  So I'll answer each question in two ways, depending on which partner
I imagine myself to be.

In all cases, if my partner and I cannot agree on the boundaries of acceptable
behavior, we should end the relationship.

>	If one is a jealous partner should this still apply ?

If I am the jealous partner, I should respect my partner's different way of 
looking at her behavior.  I should accept her need for flirting, dancing and
a feeling of independence.  I should get clear with myself and her on what 
behavior I consider intolerable.  

If my partner is jealous, I should accept her feelings as part of her self.  I
should help her understand my views and my needs.  I should get clear with
myself and her what needs I feel I must meet.

>	If one partner wants more from a 'dating' relationship than the other,
>	should this still apply ?

If I am the more wanting partner, I should respect the more limited needs 
of my partner.  I should talk with her to find a level of closeness which is
enough for me but not too much for her.

If I am the less wanting partner, I should respect the needs of my partner for
a closer relationship.  I should talk with her to find a level of closeness
which is enough for her but not too much for me.

Re.70

	So, we are of the same opinion. I agree with what you said.

>	I should accept her need for flirting, dancing and a feeling of 
>	independence.  I should get clear with myself and her on what 
>	behavior I consider intolerable.

	...and this sums up what I think the base noter should say to
	himself (that's if I'm in the right note :-)).

	- Paul\