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Conference quark::mennotes

Title:Discussions of topics pertaining to men
Notice:Please read all replies to note 1
Moderator:QUARK::LIONELE
Created:Thu Jan 21 1993
Last Modified:Fri Jun 06 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:268
Total number of notes:12755

23.0. "women/men and men/men relationships" by --UnknownUser-- () Fri Jan 29 1993 09:07

T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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23.1WAHOO::LEVESQUESeize the Mo'Fri Jan 29 1993 11:0221
>Do you guys, in men/women and men/men relationships, feel that what happens
>between the sheets has become more aggressive, more competitive ?

 I don't think competitive is really the right way to describe it. I would
say that women seem to have become more active partners. It's no longer a
matter of what she let you do, it's a matter of what you did together. It
seems that women are less passive about the whole thing. All of this is good.

 As far as bondage itself goes, it seems to carry with it some incredibly
powerful fears in the minds of many. What bondage really amounts to is
trust. Relatively few people are willing to place the sort of trust required
in the hands of their lovers, which to me seems almost contradictory.

>Do you feel
>that it's more difficult to enter into relationships and maintain them because
>women or men are simply more aggressive with you ?

 I don't, no. Sometimes I like to be aggressive, sometimes I like to be the 
object of aggressive passion. 

 The Doctah
23.2STAR::ABBASIiam NOT a crock !Fri Jan 29 1993 11:518
>and I don't know of anybody, amongst my friends anyway - who are into that.
    
    like, how do you know ?
    
    you think they'll tell you that if they do it ?
    
    \bye
    \nasser
23.4JURAN::SILVANobody wants a Charlie in the Box!Fri Jan 29 1993 15:2613

	I know of one couple that is into bondage. But don't know why they are
attracted to it. I myself like aggressive sex. Sometimes with me the aggresser,
sometimes my partner, sometimes both. It depends on the mood we are in (we as
both have to be willing). I know from past experience that a partner who is
totally passive is one that I would get bored with eventually. Oh, by
aggressive I'm talking about no one lying there all the time waiting for
someone else to do something.



Glen
23.5POWDML::BUCKLEYsometimes salvationWed Feb 17 1993 19:285
>	I know of one couple that is into bondage. But don't know why they are
>attracted to it. 
    
    Why ask why?  Some things just are...
    
23.6WAHOO::LEVESQUEnotes$surferThu Feb 18 1993 10:486
>	I know of one couple that is into bondage. But don't know why they are
>attracted to it. 

 Well, you could always give it a try to see if through exploration you could
identify the attraction... It sounds sorta like the old woman wondering why
the younguns were attracted to oral sex...
23.7Where's the BEEF ?RTOVC0::PNEALFri Feb 19 1993 13:437
The question isn't about bondage it's about relationships and what's missing. 
It's about what's become accepted as the norm in American society.

Where's the romance ? or is that 'out' in American relationships ?

- Paul.

23.8WAHOO::LEVESQUESpontaneous CombustionFri Feb 19 1993 17:093
>Where's the romance ? or is that 'out' in American relationships ?

 Sez who? There's plenty of romance, if you know where to look.
23.9VAXWRK::STHILAIREFood, Shelter & DiamondsFri Feb 19 1993 17:274
    It also depends on what someone's idea of romance is.
    
    Lorna
    
23.10AIMHI::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaFri Feb 19 1993 19:074
23.11Dave Barry on RelationshipsSTRATA::WILBERLive Simply, that others may simply LiveFri Jul 07 1995 02:04208
    This explains it all.
    
CC:	
Subj:	Dave Barry Explains guys 

SHE DRIVES FOR A RELATIONSHIP. HE'S LOST IN THE TRANSMISSION

By DAVE BARRY


CONTRARY to what many women believe, it's fairly easy to develop a 
long-term, table, intimate, and mutually fulfilling relationship with a guy.
Of course this guy has to be a Labrador retriever. With human guys, it's 
extremely difficult. This is because guys don't really grasp what women mean
by the term relationship.

Let's say a guy named Roger is attracted to a woman named Elaine. He asks her 
out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time. A few nights later 
he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves. They continue to 
see each other regularly, and after a while neither one of them is seeing 
anybody else.

And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Elaine, 
and, without really thinking, she says it aloud: ''Do you realize that, as of 
tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?''

And then there is silence in the car. To Elaine, it seems like a very loud 
silence. She thinks to herself: Geez, I wonder if it bothers him that I said 
that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he thinks 
I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he doesn't want, or 
isn't sure of.

And Roger is thinking: Gosh. Six months.

And Elaine is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of 
relationship, either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd have 
time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we are, 
moving steadily toward . . . I mean, where are we going? Are we just going to 
keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward 
marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that 
level of commitment? Do I really even know this person?

And Roger is thinking: . . . so that means it was . . . let's see . . . 
February when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at 
the dealer's, which means . . . lemme check the odometer . . . Whoa! I am way 
overdue for an oil change here.

And Elaine is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm 
reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship, 
more intimacy, more commitment; maybe he has sensed -- even before I sensed 
it -- that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why 
he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of 
being rejected.

And Roger is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission 
again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not shifting right. And 
they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What cold 
weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a goddamn 
garbage truck, and I paid those incompetent thieves $600.


COMMUNICATIONS GAP

And Elaine is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry, too. 
God, I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I 
feel. I'm just not sure.

And Roger is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty. 
That's exactly what they're gonna say, the scumballs.

And Elaine is thinking: Maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight 
to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a 
perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I truly do care 
about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain 
because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy.

And Roger is thinking: Warranty? They want a warranty? I'll give them a 
goddamn warranty. I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their . . 

''Roger,'' Elaine says aloud.

''What?'' says Roger, startled.

''Please don't torture yourself like this,'' she says, her eyes beginning to 
brim with tears. ''Maybe I should never have . . . Oh God, I feel so . . . '' 
(She breaks down, sobbing.)

''What?'' says Roger.

''I'm such a fool,'' Elaine sobs. ''I mean, I know there's no knight. I 
really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse.''

''There's no horse?'' says Roger.

''You think I'm a fool, don't you?'' Elaine says.

''No!'' says Roger, glad to finally know the correct answer.

''It's just that . . . It's that I . . . I need some time,'' Elaine says.

(There is a 15-second pause while Roger, thinking as fast as he can, tries to 
come up with a safe response. Finally he comes up with one that he thinks 
might work.)

''Yes,'' he says.


A BEFUDDLED BEAU

(Elaine, deeply moved, touches his hand.)

''Oh, Roger, do you really feel that way?'' she says.

''What way?'' says Roger.

''That way about time,'' says Elaine.

''Oh,'' says Roger. ''Yes.''

(Elaine turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him to 
become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it involves 
a horse. At last she speaks.)

''Thank you, Roger,'' she says.

''Thank you,'' says Roger.

Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted, tortured soul,
and weeps until dawn, whereas when Roger gets back to his place, he opens a 
bag of Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately becomes deeply involved in a 
rerun of a tennis match between two Czechoslovakians he never heard of. A 
tiny voice in the far recesses of his mind tells him that something major was 
going on back there in the car, but he is pretty sure there is no way he 
would ever understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't think 
about it. (This is also Roger's policy regarding world hunger.)


IT'S ANALYSIS TIME

The next day Elaine will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them, and 
they will talk about this situation for six straight hours. In painstaking 
detail, they will analyze everything she said and everything he said, going 
over it time and time again, exploring every word, expression, and gesture 
for nuances of meaning, considering every possible ramification. They will 
continue to discuss this subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never 
reaching any definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it, either.

Meanwhile, Roger, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual friend of 
his and Elaine's, will pause just before serving, frown, and say: ''Norm, did 
Elaine ever own a horse?''

We're not talking about different wavelengths here. We're talking about 
different planets, in completely different solar systems. Elaine cannot 
communicate meaningfully with Roger about their relationship any more than 
she can meaningfully play chess with a duck. Because the sum total of Roger's 
thinking on this particular topic is as follows:

Huh?

But the point I'm trying to make is that, if you're a woman, and you want to 
have a successful relationship with a guy, the No. 1 tip to remember is:

1. Never assume that the guy understands that you and he have a relationship.

The guy will not realize this on his own. You have to plant the idea in his 
brain by constantly making subtle references to it in your everyday 
conversation, such as:

-- ''Roger, would you mind passing me a Sweet 'n' Low, inasmuch as we have 
	a relationship?''
    
-- ''Wake up, Roger! There's a prowler in the den and we have a 
	relationship! You and I do, I mean.''

-- ''Good News, Roger! The gynecologist says we're going to have our fourth 
	child, which will serve as yet another indication that we have a 
	relationship!''

-- ''Roger, inasmuch as this plane is crashing and we probably have only 
	about a minute to live, I want you to know that we've had a wonderful 53
	years of marriage together, which clearly constitutes a relationship.''

Never let up, women. Pound away relentlessly at this concept, and eventually 
it will start to penetrate the guy's brain. Some day he might even start 
thinking about it on his own. He'll be talking with some other guys about 
women, and, out of the blue, he'll say, ''Elaine and I, we have, ummm . . . 
We have, ahhh . . . We . . . We have this thing.''

And he will sincerely mean it.

The next relationship-enhancement tip is:

2. Do not expect the guy to make a hasty commitment.

By ''hasty,'' I mean, ''within your lifetime.'' Guys are extremely reluctant 
to make commitments. This is because they never feel ready.

''I'm sorry,'' guys are always telling women, ''but I'm just not ready to 
make a commitment.'' Guys are in a permanent state of nonreadiness. If guys 
were turkey breasts, you could put them in a 350-degree oven on July Fourth, 
and they still wouldn't be done in time for Thanksgiving.


>From the forthcoming book, ''Dave Barry's Complete Guide to Guys'' by Dave 
Barry, (c) 1995 by Dave Barry. Reprinted with the permission of Random House 
Inc. Distributed by Tribune Media Services Inc.


23.12NOTAPC::PEACOCKFreedom is not free!Fri Jul 07 1995 19:0222
   re: .10 - violence and kids and relationships...
   
   That's why we don't watch Bugs Bunny (& Friends) any more... we found
   that it was way too violent and had the wrong sorts of messages...

   There was one that sealed it for us - Bugs was in some sort of a
   Hansel & Gretel story - he helps the kids get away from the witch and
   then has to fight off the witch.  She (the witch) finally turns
   herself into a pretty female bunny and Bugs is smitten.  He takes her
   arm and they turn to walk into the sunset together... before they
   leave, he turns to the camera and says (paraphrased)  "I know, but
   aren't they all witches a little bit?"
   
   I grew up addicted to that era of cartoons, but I won't let my kids
   watch it...
   

   re: .11 - Dave Barry on relationships....
   
   Thanks, I needed that!   :-)  :-)
   
   - Tom
23.13MKOTS3::RAUHI survived the Cruel SpaFri Jul 07 1995 20:448
    Tom,
    
    Believe it or not.... I am very conserned about what my daughter
    watches. I will concur the violence in cartoons. But, hey!! I love
    AArrrrnooold as the Teerminator!:) And I love my tv violence!! So, I
    guess its rather hipicrit to say no to one yet, love it myself!:)
    
    
23.14STRATA::WILBERLive Simply, that others may simply LiveSat Jul 08 1995 06:3518
    I'm still not ready to toss out Bugs Bunny (or the 3 Stooges for that
    matter). To be honest, that stuff is so silly, it seems kids can
    distinguish it from real. 
    
    What scares me more is the "psuedo-reality" of Arnold Schw<etc> and Sly
    Stallone movies. Kids watch them take a bullet to the chest then mow
    down 5 or 6 "bad guys". 
    
    I'd actually prefer a movie like "Pulp Fiction" where the violence is
    so real, you can feel it. That, to me, discouraged people from violence
    because it played the tape all the way through. They just didn't show a
    good guy blow up a bad guy, they showed the people shot in extreme pain
    (as most gunshots cause) and the people who died weren't necessarily
    "bad" guys. 
    
    Bugs cracks me up, Sly bores me and revolts me.
    
    jeff
23.15FSCORE::R_KROEKERMon Jul 10 1995 14:1020
re .-1

	I recently saw the movie "Rob Roy" with a friend of mine. It's set
in Scotland in the 17th or 18th century in the time of land barons, serfs,
feudalism, etc.
	Swords were the weapons of choice, and there was one longish duel at
the end with Rob Roy getting slashed and continuing on despite his wounds.

	After the movie my friend said he had to close his eyes a few times
due to the blood and said that me most definitely prefers an Arnold movie where
people "just get shot"(not an exact quote).

	I'm not that surprised by his reaction, just thought I'd share this. 

	It reflects the effect Hollywood and TV can have on us, de-sensitizing 
us to what is really going on in the wide world, *both* the good and the bad.
I think it's fine for a bit of escapism, but IMNSHO, Shows that numb both our
thinking and our feeling dominate too much of the media.

Richard
23.16NOTAPC::PEACOCKFreedom is not free!Mon Jul 10 1995 16:1612
   re: .13 MKOTS3::RAUH
   
   I don't believe there's a problem with liking a particular style (like
   tv violence) but not letting kids watch it.   Its a matter of what
   you, the parent, believe they can handle and are ready for.  I don't
   see any hypocracy in that...  isn't that what the whole movie rating
   system was supposed to address - to keep kids away from stuff they
   just weren't old enough for yet?
   
   imo,
   
   - Tom
23.17re:cartoons...NAC::TRAMP::GRADYSubvert the dominant pair of dimesWed Jul 12 1995 15:176
Agreed that too many cartoons are too violent, but I
kinda liked the idea of Conan the Librarian (non-violent
spoof)...and the current Animaniacs character called 
Katy Kaboom is hilarious...

It's not all bad...
23.18Seinfield on Relationships & suchSTRATA::WILBERI figured out the game, then they changed the rulesThu Jul 27 1995 02:07144
To:	STUFF
CC:	
Subj:	H: Seinfeld Commentaries - Three Billion Stooges :-)

Subject: FW: Seinfeld Commentaries - a little relief from


for all you Seinfeld fans out there ....
     
 ON DATING:
     
- - - - -Dating is pressure and tension.  What is a date, really, 
but a job interview that lasts all night?  The only difference 
between a date and a job interview is that in not many job 
interviews is there a chance you'll end up naked at the end of it.
     "Well, Bill, the boss thinks you're the man for the job.
Why don't you strip down and meet some of the people you'll be 
working with?"
     
- - - - -What would the world be like if people said whatever
they were thinking, all the time, whenever it came to them?  How 
long would a blind date last?  About 13 seconds, I think.  "Oh, 
sorry, your rear end is too big."  "That's ok, your breath stinks 
anyway.  See you later."
     
 ON SEX:
     
- - - - -Seems to me the basic conflict between men and women, 
sexually, is that men are like firemen.  To men, sex is an 
emergency, and no matter what we're doing we can be ready in two 
minutes.  Women, on the other hand, are like fire.  They're very 
exciting, but the conditions have to be exactly right for it to 
occur.
     
- - - - -Men and women all in all, behave just like our basic 
sexual elements.  If you watch single men on a weekend night they 
really act very much like sperm - all disorganized, bumping into 
their friends, swimming in the wrong direction.  "I was first." 
"Let me through."  "You're on my tail."  "That's my spot." 
They're like the Three Billion Stooges.  But the egg is very 
cool:  "Well, who's it going to be?  I can divide.  I can wait a 
month.  I'm  not swimming anywhere."
     
 THE RELATIONSHIP
     
- - - - -Why is commitment such a big problem for a man?  I think 
that for some  reason when a man is driving down that freeway of 
love, the woman he's with is like an exit, but he doesn't want to 
get off there.  He wants to keep driving.  And the woman is like, 
"Look, gas, food, lodging, that's our exit, that's everything we 
need to be happy...Get off here, now!" But the man is focusing on 
sign underneath that says, "Next exit 27 miles," and he thinks, 
"I can make it."  Sometimes he can, sometimes he can't. 
Sometimes, the car ends up on the side of the road, hood up and 
smoke pouring out of the engine.  He's sitting on the curb all
alone, "I guess I didn't realize how many miles I was racking up."
     
- - - - -The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view 
that men are all the same, so we might as well dress them that 
way.  That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a 
beautiful, glowing bride and some guy.  The tuxedo is a wedding 
safety device, created by women because they know that men are 
undependable.  So in case the groom chickens out, everybody just 
takes one step over, and she marries the next guy.
     
 ON CLOTHES
     
- - - - -I once had a leather jacket that got ruined in the rain. 
Why does moisture ruin leather?  Aren't cows outside a lot of the 
time?  When it's raining, do cows go up to the farmhouse, "Let us 
in!  We're all wearing leather! Open the door!  We're going to 
ruin the whole outfit here!"
     
 TRAVELING
     
- - - - -I was in front of an ambulance the other day, and I 
noticed that the word "ambulance" was spelled in reverse print on 
the hood of the ambulance.  And I thought, "Well, isn't that 
clever."  I look in the rear-view mirror, I can read the word 
"ambulance" behind me.  Of course while you're reading, you don't 
see where you're going, you crash, you need an ambulance.  I 
think they're trying to drum up some business on the way back 
from lunch.
     
- - - - -You know what I never get with the limo?  The tinted 
windows.  Is that so people don't see you?  Yeah, what a better 
way not to have people notice you than taking a thirty foot 
Cadillac with a TV antenna and a uniformed driver.  How discreet.
 Nobody cares who's in the limo.  You see a limo go by, you know
it's either some rich jerk or fifty prom kids with $1.75 each.
     
- - - - -Are there keys to a plane?  Maybe that's what those
delays are sometimes, when you're just sitting there at the gate.
 Maybe the pilot sits up there in the cockpit going, "Oh, I don't
believe this.  Dammit..I did it again."  They tell you it's 
something mechanical because they don't want to come on the P.A. 
system, "Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to be delayed here on 
the ground for a while.  I uh..Oh, God this is so 
embarrassing...I, I left the keys to the plane in my apartment. 
They're in this big ashtray by the front door.  I'm sorry, I'll 
run back and get them."
     
- - - - -You can measure distance by time.  "How far away is it?" 
"Oh about 20 minutes."  But it doesn't work the other way.  "When 
do you get off work?" "Around 3 miles."
     
 DEATH
     
- - - - -The Chalk Outline guy's got a good job. Not too
dangerous, the criminals are long gone.  I guess these are people 
who wanted to be sketch artists but they couldn't draw very well.
 "Uh, listen, Jon, forget the sketches, do you think if we left
the dead body right there on the sidewalk you could manage to 
trace around it?"      How does that help them solve the crime? 
They look at the thing on the ground, "Oh, his arm was like that 
when he hit the pavement....the killer must have been...Jim."
     
 THAT'S ODD
     
- - - - -I had a parakeet that used to fly around the house and 
crash into these huge mirrors my mother put in.  Ever heard of 
this interior design principle, that a mirror makes it seem like 
you have an entire other room? What kind of jerk walks up to a 
mirror and goes, "Hey look, there's a whole other room in there. 
There's a guy that looks just like me in there."      But the 
parakeet would fall for this.  I'd let him out of his cage, he'd 
fly right into the mirror.  And I'd always think, "Even if he 
thinks the mirror is another room, why doesn't he at least try to 
avoid hitting the other parakeet?"
     
- - - - - Kids could always resolve any dispute by calling it.
One of them will say, "I got the front seat."  "I want the front 
seat."  "I called it." And the other kid has no recourse.  "He 
called it, what can I do?"  If there was a kid court of law it 
holds up.  "You Honor, my client did ask for the front seat." 
The judge says, "Did he call it?"  "Well, no, he didn't call 
it..."  He bangs the gavel.  "Objection overruled.  He has to 
call it.  Case closed."


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