Conference quark::mennotes

    Never understood this. I have a cousin (male) staying home with his
    daughter (less than a year old) while his wife works. Given their
    training and the current job market there is no way he can make what
    she does. So he stays home. I'm jealous.

    He admits that sometimes he feels he should be the one going off to
    work because he's the guy. But he never had a problem with his wife
    making more than he was before the baby.

    There was a time when my wife made more than I did. I went in to work
    all happy that now I could afford to work at DEC. :-)

    		Alfred

	I'd be psyched if my wife made twice as much as me, after all money
	is money, although I'd prefer I be the one making the most. 


	What's mine is hers and what's hers I don't want. (from COACH)

I'd be really happy if my wife earned more than I did. With us she's the one 
who's pissed that I earn more.

It's when your dog earns more than you do that you really need to start
worrying.

				Steve

    I wish my wife did make more money than me when she worked outside the
    home. Then I would've gotten to be the one to stay home lay on the
    beach in the summer and take afternoon walks instead of being in here.

    Jim

    re:.0
    
    Unless she keeps it to herself, I'm all for it.

    My wife does make more money than I do.  Her income jumped ahead of
    mine about a year and a half ago when I moved from engineer in DEC to
    warehouse worker in DEC to help keep bread on the table. Her making
    more than me per se doesn't bother me.
    
    What DOES bother me is the incredible difference between what I was
    raised to and the reality of today.  In the 1950's when I was a boy
    men and women had clearly defined roles, one knew what was expected
    of a man, and of a woman.  Now I find that Society has integrated sex
    roles so completely that one absolutely MUST stay loose on your feet,
    not take yourself or your role seriously as something which is clearly
    defined or you will wind up bonkers like so many we read about in the
    papers.
    
    I also find myself walking on ice lest I suggest to my 5 year old son
    that there is ANYTHING more appropriately performed by a man than a
    woman, or vice versa.
    
    The end result of all this is I think a Society of people who tend to 
    have poor self esteem and poorly defined personal identities. 
    
    Sometimes I wonder 'who wears the pants in my home' not that it makes
    any difference anymore anyway.
    
    Some bitterness here, yes, definitely, but I am working on it.
    
    Jeff

    re .7, funny. First, you say that it doesn't bother you that your wife
    makes more money than you.  Then, you go on to wonder who wears the
    pants in your house.  If it doesn't bother you, then why should it
    matter?
    
    Sounds to me like it does bother you and you're having a difficult time
    adjusting to the fact that you didn't get to be an adult in the 1950's.
    
    Lorna
      

    Well, hell, it sometimes bugs *me* that I make about twice what my
    husband does.  It has less to do with a role reversal and probably more
    to do with the fact that half of what I make isn't very much, but I can
    sure say that I'd feel a lot better if it was more 50/50.  He would
    probably feel a lot better, too.  It's not just a gender thing, it's a
    self esteem/doing the equal part thing.
    
    
    kim

    
    
    This is an issue that I have had happen to me with my ex.
    Mind you he never had an issue when I would pick up the check
    or pay a bill for him.  Yet he had a major issue with me
    making almost one third more than he.  It was basically
    due to my choice of career vs his choice.  I found it funny
    while he found it intimidating.  Course he wasnt really
    the most emotionally healthy creature on the face of the
    earth.  But in general, I have found that alot of male friends
    are not comfortable with the fact that I make more than they
    do.  To me it really isn't an issue, but that could be due
    to me being on the other side of this particular fence.
    
    

    Getting to know each other a bit aren't we Lorna.  Maybe your right
    about that.  I am glad that I wasn't an adult in the 50's because
    I would be geriatric by now.  Who wears the pants DOES bother me.
    I don't particularly see that earning ALL the money is the most
    important aspect of who wears the pants.  Today both husband and wife
    MUST work (usually) to earn enough money to maintain a middle class
    life style.
    
    I certainly AM struggling with appropriate roles for the 1990's man
    and woman since they have become so similiar.  Not that that is 
    inherently wrong.... its just that I wasn't 'trained' for that in
    MY childhood.
    
    Womens Lib. HAS closed the equal rights gap for woman, and that is
    as it should be.  Somehow the ROLES have changed too (not rights)
    ROLES and its hard to get used to women in 'traditional' roles men
    used to have, especially when those jobs (roles) are particularly
    physically demanding.
    
    I said a few things to you Lorna which was calling things as I saw
    them, (not to hurt you), and you are doing the same with me.  Thats
    fine.  I 'dished it out' now lets see how I handle getting it back.
    
    Smile
    
    Jeff

    I've always made substantially more than my husband, anywhere from
    1/3 to 1/2 again as much, but it's never bothered him.  He's always
    said it doesn't matter who makes the money as it all goes into the
    same pot, and we can get things that much faster (he just got his
    airplane for Christmas which we wouldn't have been able to afford
    without my pay).  And he had the opportunity to stay home with our
    daughter once I went back to work after my maternity leave as he
    was unemployed for about 16 months.  He really enjoyed it the time
    with her, and we were both thankful that we were able to live on one
    pay for that long, especially with the other twin still in the hospital
    for so long.
    
    And now that he's back working, we're able to save for the twins'
    college and our retirement in 30 years.  Two incomes give us some
    flexibility in our lifestyle and the ability to provide for our
    children.  And it doesn't matter which one of us is bringing home
    the bigger paycheck.
    

In a man/man relationship does a similar competitiveness exist over who
earns the most ?

In a man/man relationship is it even a question ?

    Gosh YES! I can't think of a topic more likely to arouse resentment
    in most men than whether a peer is making more than he is for the
    'same' job..... for that matter even if it ISN'T the same job the
    resentment tends to develop.
    
    At least with ones' wife its all in the family.
    
    Jeff
    

In using 'man/man' I was thinking more of a homosexual relationship than 
peer group, but you're right. Peer group relationships do tend to be that way.

- Paul.
 

    I'm currently the breadwinner, but I doubt he'd mind if I earned enough
    to support us both.  Heck, if I won the publisher's clearinghouse
    sweepstakes, that might take care of a lot of both our worries!  He
    knows he does valuable things that have little monetary value - and I
    know that I enjoy my career.  
    
    -Jody
    

    Jody,
    
    Those valuable things have little monetary value until you try to hire
    them done...  :-)
    
    -dick

    My wife earns exactly twice as much as I'd earn if I worked full-time.
    I work part-time, by choice.
    
    For us it comes down to this:
    
    She's more focused, aggressive, and comfortable at planning out a
    career and being a leader.
    
    I'm more of a dilettante, happier having a mix of job, family, household
    responsibilities, other interests, and better at juggling these many
    balls.
    
    It's a great life.
    
    And, even though I grew up in the '50s, I was never fenced in by the
    traditional roles. Though my parents were perfectly conventional
    (father worked, mother mostly stayed home to raise 6 kids), most of the
    baggage about sex roles did not pertain in our family. For example, I
    always thought of my mother as the intellectually smarter, the sharper
    conversationalist of the two; but my father was certainly the better
    housekeeper. And as the 2d eldest, I knew about cleaning, washing
    diapers, and tending little ones while still in my teens.
    
    Kit 
    
    

    re .18, you're lucky!  Sounds like a good deal to me.
    
    Lorna
    

that 'who wears the pants' idiom is so outdated; what is it saying?
That the person who makes the big decisions is seen to be male-like?
as opposed to 'who wears the skirts'?  I guess we all know what a
lop-sided sense of role-responsibilities that little gem came from.
I'm glad I'm free enough in a culture free enough to allow my own
personal life to escape from such biases.  Who makes the decisions
in our household varies depending on who cares more about a particular
issue; and even then, the decisions aren't unilateral; they're reached
by consensus, discussion.  And sometimes, we each follow our own path.
I can't imagine (myself) choosing, or my SO choosing, to subordinate
our own desires, thoughts, wishes, knowledge, to the dominating ego
requirements of that tradition, or seeing that tradition as superior
to the one we've evolved for ourselves, based on mutual respect.

DougO

    Outdated?  You wear something else, then?

>     Outdated?  You wear something else, then?

Tell us, mikie, if you understand the meaning of the following term:

"idiom"

Once you have mastered the concept, check your grasp of the example cited:

"who wears the pants"

Finally, demonstrate the level of your proficiency by repeating the question,
if such seems advisable to you.

DougO

    Condescension is best reserved for those who actually ARE superior.

Sarcasm, mikie, sarcasm.

DougO

    RE: .22 - .24
    
    Whew!  There's quite the fine line between condescension and sarcasm.
    
    Actually, it sounded pretty damned condescending to me, too, Mike.
    
    
    Jon

    You're obviously a very perceptive individual, Jon.
    
    Douglass, yer dismissed.

    Jon and Mikie, I see no evidence that literalmindedness is superior
    to, or even the equal of, a good grasp of abstract symbols such as
    sarcasm.
    
    Back to school, children.

	Yes, Daddy!  Sorry to impose my stunted sense of sarcasm on you.

	(How's that?)

    re:.27, -dick
    
    See .23.

c'mon, Mike- if I really thought you lacked the grasp of the concept
of "idiom", then indeed would my entry following your own silly question
have been condescending.  Since I expect that you do actually know the
concept, though, my note was obviously sarcastic.  Shall we now explore
just what you really intended to suggest with your question?  Why did
you find it necessary to ask, "Outdated?  You wear something else, then?"
in a discussion which is obviously not about apparel at all.

DougO

    Condescension failed, so now it's time to beat the dead horse, eh?
    
    Douglass take your own advice and don't try to teach an ignorant,
    unwashed engineer like me the English language.

yes, I should've known better.  You still haven't addressed yourself
to the question: why did you ask the question in .21?

DougO

    THE ANSWER to the original question....
    "who's the breadwinner"
    
    Obviously, the one who "wins the most bread" in other words, the one
    who makes the most money, leaving subtleries aside...