Conference quark::mennotes

    If I were not told beforehand that nudity was planned, I'd be surprised
    and, maybe, a little put out.  It is not acceptable to spring something
    like that on an unsuspecting visitor.
    
    In Munich, your mileage may vary - especially if you and your hosts are
    accustomed in the past to partying nude.
    
    -dick

    I've done sauna in Munich and my host prepared me for the environment,
    rather different from the states. In the states if I'm invited to sauna
    or hot tub I usually checkout the nudity expectations before I go so I
    know what to expect. Seems to make sense.
    
    Dj

	"unsuspecting ..."

Agreed - but I did say they were friends.

	"In Munich, your mileage may vary ..."

I'm English - my wife's German. In England we don't hang around in public places
naked. Or private places either - unless you're one of the Royal family. So
you could classify me under the banner of 'conservative' and in which case I'd
say my mileage is "probably" the same as yours.

What's wrong with being naked in mixed company ? It's a very honest, natural
state. It doesn't have to be sexual, perverted, or crude.

- Paul.

P.S.  Interestingly a consequence of the open attitude is that the incidence 
of reported rape, sexual harrassment etc in Munich is the lowest in Germany.

 

    Re .3
    
    >> "unsuspecting ..."
    
    > Agreed - but I did say they were friends.
    
    No problem.  But the way you worded the question said nothign about
    time or place.  You simply asked, "What if you were invited to a BBQ
    and...?"  Friends notwithstanding, unless I had grown into a casual
    acceptance of nudity, which I have not done here in the US of A, I'd
    want at least to be warned.
    
    I don't see anything wrong with being naked in mixed company, although
    I prefer the word "nude" because "Naked" implies shamefully unclothed
    to many people.
    
    -dick

.0>How would you react if friends invited you over for a BBQ and you're greeted at 
>the door by your friends wife and she's naked ?

Well, it's never happened, so I'd have to guess at my reaction.  My first 
reaction would probably be to wonder if this was a sexual invitation or 
a fashion statement.  Given my current set of friends, I would probably 
settle on the latter.  Then my wife (assuming she is along) and I would have 
a quick huddle to decide whether to 
  A	exit with dignity
  B	stay clothed and join them
  C	strip and join them
We would probably decide on A, for no stronger reason than an idea of the
situations we feel comfortable in.

I have a chance every year to join a mixed, clothing-optional sauna, but
I never seem to get around to it.  Again, no strong reason.

>What's wrong with being naked in mixed company ? It's a very honest, natural
>state. It doesn't have to be sexual, perverted, or crude.

I don't know what might be wrong with it, but I haven't spent much time
thinking about it.  The dominant culture in the US is rather negative on the
subject, but there is a minority holding your "honest, natural" opinion.  The
majority tends to enforce its opinion in large accessible public places, so 
the minority must practice in places that are private and/or inaccessible.

>P.S.  Interestingly a consequence of the open attitude is that the incidence 
>of reported rape, sexual harrassment etc in Munich is the lowest in Germany.

Can you support your use of the word consequence?  In general, just stating 
A is true and B is true is not enough to show that A is a consequence of B.

>How would you react if friends invited you over for a BBQ and you're greeted at 
>the door by your friends wife and she's naked ?

    If I'd been warned I probably wouldn't have gone. If surprised I'd
    probably leave. Call it what you will but I'm not socialized to deal
    with nudity very well. Perhaps, given time, or in a different culture
    I could learn to deal with it but not all at once.

    		Alfred

	"In general, just stating A is true and B is true is not enough 
	to show that A is a consequence of B."

Agreed. 

It's a fact that Bavaria has one of the lowest reported crime rates in
Germany (on a par with Baden Wurtenburg). Study groups (from criminologists to
sociologists) have identified a number of influences; these two states are 
wealthy, the police and courts deal heavily with offenders, and social 
conditions.

Social conditions (in the article I read and subsequent discussion) was 
described by factors such as the number of unemployed, the number of homeless,
the number of transients,  religion, attitudes and environment. I re-read the
article and no mention of a specific study or scientific evidence which
correlated nudity with sexual offences was made. But then none was made 
concerning unemployed, homeless, religion etc. It was only stated that social
conditions were seen as an influencing factor.

From the article, discussion, and observation, *I* had drawn the conclusion 
that one of the consequences of a liberal attitude towards nudity was that 
some men weren't being driven to search out other ways in which to satisfy 
their curiosity/needs. My conclusion also called on the evidence that 
de-criminalising (or adopting a more liberal attitude) does have a positive
effect on crime rates. There is always a certain element of the populas who
are attracted to something because it's illegal. It adds that excitement touch.
If you make it legal. The excitement factors gone.

- Paul.

Are you saying that men commit sex crimes because they're curious?

You got me - I'm in unchartered territory now.

I was using the term "curious/needs" to embrace the emotions and intentions 
which I thought peeping toms, men who steal womens underwear, knicker sniffers,
molesters, exhibitionists etc might feel.

 

    Re .8
    
    Yes.  Well, not so much men as boys.  High-school boys push their dates
    into sex because they want to know what it feels like to score.  often
    the girls bow to the boys' will, but unwillingly.  So technically it's
    not a sex crime because she said yes...
    
    -dick

    .0
    
>How would you react if friends invited you over for a BBQ and you're greeted at 
>the door by your friends wife and she's naked ?
    
    I probably wouldn't mind too much, but my wife'd probably lock me in
    the bedroom until the party was over ;^).
    
    fred();

Perhaps I have misunderstood the use of the expression sex crime, in relation
to some of the replies I've read here.  But rape is NOT a sex crime, in that
rapists do not rape for sex.  They do it for a sense of power and dominance 
over the victim.

So I for one find it hard to accept a correlation between accepted nudity
and a lower rate of (report?) rape.  

regards,

joyce

    I think the European acceptance of nudity does not result in lower "sex
    crime" rates, but the lower rate of (reported) rapes is probably a 
    result of the greater acceptance they have for their bodies and their 
    sexuality; which also results in a greater acceptance of public nudity.
    
    I don't know; I've never spent any time in Europe, so I can only guess.
    
    Jon

If rape isn't a sex crime, what is?

    Re .14
    
    > If rape isn't a sex crime, what is?
    
    Plese let's not go down this rathole in this topic.  Rape is defined by
    psychologists as a crime of power/control that uses sex as its outlet.
    By the same criteria, incest and pederasty with willing partners are
    sex crimes.
    
    Back to the sauna, please.
    
    -dick

    re:.14
    
    It IS a sex crime.
    
    No sexual element, no rape, it's really quite simple.

>How would you react if friends invited you over for a BBQ and you're greeted at 
>the door by your friends wife and she's naked ?

answers...

1) wonder if she was going to use an apron before cooking at the BBQ!
2) similar to if it was a male friend 
3) probably a bit embarassed to say the least if I hadn't been warned

    If you are of the naturist persuasion, there are many places one can
    go in the U.S., which is not nearly as liberal, generally, on the subject
    of nudity as much of the rest of the world.
    
    I'm not sure I see a link between acceptence of nudity, and sex crimes.
    I think the two are unrelated.
                                  
    

    I am an American living in Europe and have given this topic a great
    deal of thought.
    
    I believe that it more or boils down to the survival instinct that we
    do not make ourselves vulnerable by exposing our "total" selves -
    whether that is emotionally or physically which varies from one culture
    to another. To be expressive emotionally and free with my body just seems 
    so intimate - I would feel very vulnerable - something I feel is 
    appropriate for an intimate relationship but not for the whole world to 
    see. Some things are just private and other things are for public 
    consumption.
    
    For instance, in my opinion, the Germans maybe more liberal in exposing
    their bodies but are very secretive, more difficult to know emotionally. 
    While the Americans are very expressive and open emotionally but they are 
    very private with their body.
    
    So a nude mixed suana in Germany doesn't surprise me because everyone
    just sits there and drips sweat not interacting emotionally.  But a
    nude barbeque with friends - wow - I would not feel comfortable. 
    
    /Kim
                                

    I agree with .19... is not the same.  Japan has ofuros for men and for
    women and sometime for both and because they do not mingle, they are
    very reserved in their expresions towards estrangers there is no
    problem... no one seem to notice their neighbor... but a bar-b-q in the
    U.S.? I do feel nudity totally inapropriate and in bad taste.
    
    If invited, I would leave and ask to please call me back when they were
    "presentable" or in other words... "Please call us back when you're
    dressed and ready to entertain your guests..., we'll be glad to return"
    
    On the other hand, I've been in ofuros, there is no social call, so
    there is no need to explain - there's no sexual atraction , thus,
    no danger of anything leading to anything else, there is only the
    subject of getting clean and relax your mucles in HOT water... that's
    absolutely heaven after a hard day's work.
    
    I've been in Germany, Holland, and personally, I see no need of nudity
    in parks... for that, people can use our own homes and gardens, but a
    public place should be suitable and available to all, and nudity is
    beautiful on the joung... I've seen bodies that could make you laugh!
    they could look 10 times better "wrapped up in some clothing". This is
    my opinion