Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    At least in the Australian system the Child Support Agency is obliged
    to ask the ex if she got any money before they hit you.  You still get
    the 'you owe megabucks' letters but they won't act until they've
    checked.
    
    This doesn't help you, of course.  But there is a (slightly) better
    way.

    re .0:
    
    I went through the wringer with the DOR/CSE also.  Except, they were
    doing me dirty over child support owed me.  They sat on my case for
    a year doing nothing while the children and I were really struggling.
    I made numerous calls and would get nothing but lip service.  Finally
    I called the childrens father and asked him to please help.  So, he
    got on the phone to DOR and was run around in circles until we thought
    we had finally gotten somewhere.  He started sending in child support
    checks to be sent to us, and the DOR promply sent them to welfare.
    Not the kids and I, but welfare!!!   This went on for a couple of
    weeks while I persistantly called them and badgered them over it, all
    they gave me was more lip service.  Until I got so sick and tired of
    this crap I got ahold of an organization called ACES, Inc.  which
    is a nation wide organization of people who have had to deal with 
    DOR/CSE and have worked their way through the system of red tape.
    ACES, Inc. had me write up a brief synopsis of what I've been through
    trying to obtain child support since the DOR/CSE has taken over our
    case and they were going to present it to Marilyn Rae Smith, who is
    the Chief Counsil for the Department of Revenue in Massachusetts.
    When I mentioned this to the person who was supposidly (mis)handling
    our case his wheels must have starting spinning full speed, because
    he called me back 1 hour later with more progress made in our case
    than he had made in a full year and I received 4 child support checks
    the following week (they had to retrieve them back from welfare) and
    I've been receiving child support checks weekly ever since.
    
    My advice to you is to Call them and keep calling them until you get
    somewhere.  Drop names if you have to.  Make a total pest out of
    yourself, otherwise they don't make any kind of movement on your case.
    They'll sit on your appeal until the 45 days are up and then send the
    check off to whoever they like (welfare perhaps, maybe your ex).
    These people do not know what they are doing and they really don't 
    care either, unless there is a possibility that someone from high
    above them might be investigating their screw-ups.
    
    Sorry to ramble on, but when I hear about that damn DOR it gets going!
    
    Good luck!

    File a civil suit against the ex and against the state of Mass. 

>    File a civil suit against the ex and against the state of Mass. 

	Why my ex??? She's been more than cooperative and I don't see that
she did anything wrong. Now, a suit against the state may be an option, albeit 
an expensive one.

    If she has taken your backside into court, and has told the state that 
    you owe. And you have proof to the other. Than she is just as guilty as
    the state. And should be held responsible for false representation as
    the state. The state doesn't know that she is telling the truth or not.
    They act as any typical Nazi or would do. Your guilty, even if you can
    prove yourself otherwise. If you check out some of the laws, esp local.
    You will find that DOR/DHS has a clause that grants them immunity from
    civil suits. Welp.... Guess again. The supreme court of this land
    has not determined that fact to be true or not. I should know, I have
    a rule 7 supreme court appeal against an attorney who is/was the
    GAL in my case. This gentleman knew from the get-go that the ex
    and my daughter were living with a self admitted child molester. 
    And in his report tried to brush it all under the table. And
    when I proved to him and the courts of New Hampshire that this man
    is dangerous. It was then I was able to turn the ruling around and was
    granted custody of my 3 year old daughter.

    If you take the time to learn some of the laws of this state, you can
    represent yourself as a Pro-se.

    There is at each county seat in the state of Mass a law library. You
    should contact them, as a citizen of Mass you can call and ask them
    to do some research for you just for the asking. And I would do
    this and find out what and where you stand. 
                              

    
    
    re -1
    
    George,
    
    His ex sent in a signed notarized letter obtained by  his lawyer
    stating that she did indeed receive payments.  I fail to see how
    you could see that as her telling the state that he owed.  Quite
    the opposite in fact.  This is strictly a case between he and the
    state DOR.  What charges would you have his ex brought up on?  
    
    Re .0
    
    I would contact your state rep and congress person.  That was how
    my mom finally got some help working the system.  I too would 
    call DOR and get every name of every person you talk to.  Also
    when they refuse to give you a satisfactory answer ask to speak
    to their supervisor and get their name as well.  As many names
    as you can get are going to help not hurt.  As for the letter
    stating not to call them, I'd ignore it until the situation was
    resolved.  Also, call the IRS in Andover and ask to speak to the
    consumer complaint department.  (I will try to find you the name
    of a person to speak to directly and provide it tomorrow).  Tell
    them what is going on and document all of this and cc them.  The
    more they are aware, the better it is for you. 
    
    I would also ask your ex to see if she could possibly call DOR
    and get this straightened out.  You are at the moment at the
    mercy of their computer.  And the computer is only as accurate
    as the human that inputs the data.  
    
    
    Good luck,
    Michele

    .6 I don't understand what you are saying. I have not read anything
    to that effect that the ex had done anything to help this man execpt
    take him to court. 
    
    Grounds for a civil suit. Intentional efiction of emotional
    derest/distress. This man looses a days wadge, takes time off from 
    work to try to streighten out what the system has brought upon him.
    
    If he is lucky, his face will go on a deadbeat Dads banner. Then
    he can go after the state for Defermation of Charater, and 
    toss the firt part on. 
    
    Or if he is real-lucky. False arrest and inprisionment by the state.
    WOW! Can you have a field day with these chumps.
    
    The fact that they are holding up his IRS return is not in due
    process if he has been paying the childsuport. There is lots of
    things. The best is to do what you can, hope for the best.
    And fight like hell. 
    
    The only mercy that the inputter has, will be to die in their sleep.

Re: .7

George, please reread the notes.  The ex did NOT instigate this action, the
DOR did all on their own. 

What a mess!

		Steve

    I have reread the case. DOR has to have someone tell them that he is in
    arearage? Right? :) 
    
    

    Re: .9
    
    No, not if they think that they are in complete control of the flow
    of payments.
    
    				Steve

    
    If your ex is being ok about all this, why not just pay the money, and
    ask her to give it back to you when she receives it? 
    
    

    Oh God, a sensible suggestion.  Must be something wrong with it.
    
    ed

	Pay her the money and have her give it back to me???????? Ummmmm, what
would that accomplish? First, I'm an NCP. $1620 might as well be $16 million.
I don't have it. But, giving her money and getting it back isn't going to 
solve the problem. The DOR is the one claiming I owe her money. Even if that
transaction took place the DOR would never know about it so how would that
clear my record on the DOR files and get them off of my back? And, even if the
DOR knew about it, they won't get their teeth out of my behind until it's gone
thru their review process.

	As for suing the ex... I sopke to her again last night. She says that
she gets a check every week from the DOR. She said she has *never* missed a
weekly check. She has written notarized letters to say that she has all of 
her money. Suing her is a waste of my time and money. She's not my problem.
For once in my life she's an ally :-) The DOR is the problem.

	I am quite offended that our government can simply walk into my life,
accuse me of being a dead beat, tie up my personal assets (tax refunds) and
then refuse to even speak to me, telling me that, in effect that "we find
you guilty, now prove your innocence, if you can". I am as equally offended 
that I have MANY times gone without a basic necessity to make sure the weekly 
payment was made and I'm still listed as a deadbeat. I can't see where I was 
given due process here. 

	Thanks for the suggestions. I've called the DOR twice already and I'm 
accumulating a list of names. I just might write to my congressman, if he's
not out bouncing checks somewhere :-)

Carl

    fight back on their own terms.  recalculate your withholding such that
    you'll wind up owing some (small) amount of income taxes.  then they
    can intercept your return to their heart's content with no real harm
    done.  i realize the situation has some greater scope, but this would
    at least address your concerns with respect to having your tax
    refund(s) intercepted without your being able to do anything about it.

    There yha go! Don't sit there. Do something. The old story of the 
    squeakiest cog getting oiled?:) Fight back! The civil suit will also
    make them stand up and take notice that if you mess with the best.
    You'll die like the rest!:) 

    And remember when the road gets tuff the weak get intercoursed. So get
    tuff or they will intercourse you!:)  
    

    Re .0

    Write them a letter explaining in detail what you have already done,
    and what documentation that you and your lawyer have already sent.
    Send the letter to them (find out person responsible for your case)
    with a return receipt which will prove that they got your letter.

    If they go ahead and grab your tax return, then file suit in Federal
    court for some *big* bucks for their negligence and abuse of their
    position.  If nothing else, you can hit them for "intentional infliction
    of emotional distress".  Ask for a jury trial.  It shouldn't be hard
    to convince a jury that these *&^%s are abusing their power.

    Or you can just get your lawyer to send them a letter telling them
    that you will be filing suit in Federal court if they don't get
    their *&^t together.  That's usually enough to rattle their cage.
    However, if they don't bite, then you'll have to go ahead and file.

    Worked for me witht the state of Minnesota.  They kept their contton-
    picken hands _off_ my tax return. 
    
    fred();

    I'm certainly no expert in these matters but from what I have read here
    it sounds like a class action civil suit would be a very effective way
    of getting attention not to mention the power the of many as opposed to the
    few. Not all lawyers are interested in such suits but they do two
    things if successful, they create such a stink that they just might
    force this DOR bunch to get their act together, secondly all of the
    litigants can recover from a settlement. You might also consider seeing
    if you can get the attention of the news media by writing your story
    and getting it in the news.....politicians and bureaucrats cringe when
    faced with the light of day. I agree with previous noters....go on the
    offensive any way you can. 
    
    I threatened my daughters University with a class action suit when then
    failed to make classes mandated in their bulletin available so that she
    could graduate in 4 years. Many other students were in the same
    situation and were faced with attending for 5 years (tuition, room,
    board, transportation, etc. etc.) A registered letter to the University
    President with copies of their own documents and the suggestion of a
    class action suit ---- my daughter breezed thru her last year and got
    into every class she needed without exception. An assistant Dean was
    actually named in the response to eliminate any roadblock in her
    registration for required classes. I had gone so far as too identify an
    attorney willing to take on the case. 

    Class actions, give you a once around. And if your class act miss's. 
    Then its a done deal and the forces of evil win. If each of you out
    there do a civil suit, one at a time. DOR will be spending more time in
    court than in the office and will re-think their posture on doing
    naughty things. 
    
    

Another suggestion - call the Boston Globe and see if you can interest them in
your story.  I'd think they'd be delighted to take it on.

				Steve

    Mike,

    If the system were to go and really catch a deadbeat dad, someone who
    is definitely doing all he/she can to avoid paying. That one thing, 
    and that were I am going to sound like Steve Lionel and feminism.:)
    But if they (DOR) impressions, falsely arrest/impoverish, do things that
    are really not for the best interest of all parties. Well, that
    certainly is another. 

    .0 must be able to provide for himself so that he can provide for
    others. There seems to be a definite problem with DOR/DHS. They are
    going hard and fast after the working men. Men who have fine jobs at
    fine companies like Digital, IBM, etc. etc. They are not going after
    the real deadbeats because its too much work. And it would cost them
    too much money. 

    Hence, this is where, Carl, you have to do it for yourself and for us.
    For the longer DOR/DHS gets away with crap like this, the easier it is
    going to be for them to march in and take you by your heals, out of
    bed, and toss you into prison for a couple of months till they figure
    out how to spell your first name.:) The next couple of months will be
    how to spell your last name and by then there will be a new person to
    the position and they will have to start all over again. 

    I would forget the Boston Globe, I doubt they would care what all their 
wonderful buddies in the different departments in the state are doing. 

    Shoot bigtime for Ch's 4-5-7 news depts. I-team reporters, the whole mess. 
They tend to get broader coverage beyond rt 128 than the globe and maybe 
more people will care when they see thier faces/names on TV with some 
adverse publicity.

    Good luck, sounds like the state parasites are doing it bigtime to 
you...

    	Vic H

.22> If the system were to go and really catch a deadbeat dad, someone who
.22> is definitely doing all he/she can to avoid paying. That's one thing, 
    
    I have no problem with a system that catches people who are not com-
    plying with the terms they agreed to and does not affect those who are
    innocent.
    
    The one we have now, overzealous to catch the "bad guys" is a recipe
    for disaster.  Forget due process, forget presumed innocent, forget
    many of your basic civil rights if you're _possibly_ a "deadbeat dad."
    
    The system is the result of people who are too anxious to fix a problem
    and too shortsighted to see the dangers of empowering a state agency
    with almost no accountability.
    
    It'll take a few years of high-profile atrocities before it stops.

    re .24

>    It'll take a few years of high-profile atrocities before it stops.

    Or one good multi-million dollar lawsuit.
    fred();

    I have heard that if your dealing with an agency you can get far
    better results (action) if you sue an INDIVIDUAL in the agency rather
    than the agency by itself.  Gov. agencies like that tend to be
    protected by sweeping laws which tend to tie your hands.  But if
    you go after the individual(s) who are holding things up and working
    against you maybe you can rattle them into some positive action.
    
    Jeff

    Driving in this morning, I heard on the radio that New Hampshire is
    putting out it's second "10 most wanted" deadbeat parents list, and
    there is a woman on it.  Maybe there is hope for some kind of equity
    of treatment in this regard someday.

    Something which some people forget when zealously going after
    lawbreakers is that due process is there for a reason, and that
    is to protect us from corrupt power hungry or simply careless agencies
    and law enforcement officials.  I have heard an ever increasing number
    of cases in which the EPA or some other Federal or local agency has
    walked all over yet another individual without due process.  Typical
    is the case where a local or regional official has the power to make
    judgements over an individual without the individual having the legal
    recourse (because of the ways the laws AREN'T written or have been
    CHANGED!)  to appropriately protect him/herself.
    
    We had better watch it because when individuals start losing their
    rights we are talking about EACH of us as an individual losing ones'
    rights.  This Country was founded on the basis of individual rights
    and being considered innocent until proven guilty.  If we don't protect
    those very basic rights we will wake up to find that we have few rights
    left.  The tencency is to think that "Oh, this is the U.S. THAT can't
    happen here"  yes it can... we can lose our rights out from under our
    noses if we don't keep Government working for the people rather than
    the other way around which has already happened to a large extent.
    
    No I am not a member of the John Birch Society.  Just a person who is
    becoming increasingly alarmed as I see the basic principals of the
    Constitution being undermined by the Government.
    
    Did you know that in Maine public schools are no longer required to 
    teach Constitutional Rights?  In fact the portion of the Maine State
    Statutes which outline school curiculum regarding the teaching of
    basic U.S. Constitutional rights has BEEN REMOVED from the Statutes!
    I wonder WHY? Is it because the Government doesn't WANT an informed new 
    generation of schoolkids who understand their rights?  I suspect
    that that IS the reason.  An ignorant population is easier to control.
    
    What is the saying? "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts
    absolutely."
    
    Jeff

    
    
    Have you contacted FAIR or any of the other noncustodial
    parents organizations?  They might have a specific person
    who might be able to help with Mass DOR.  
    
    Michele

    re .0
    
    I think the suggestion about paying your wife and having her pay you
    back CAN be worked with a twist... Sit down with her and see how much
    they say you owe her, and work out a plan for her to repay you, then
    just up your payments to cover the amount they say you owe. 
    
    Maybe its not that simple, but as long as the two of you are in a
    position to work together on this, I think you should put your heads
    together and figure out a way to fake out the system, rather than doing
    it legitimately. 

    
>    Maybe its not that simple, but as long as the two of you are in a
>    position to work together on this, I think you should put your heads
>    together and figure out a way to fake out the system, rather than doing
>    it legitimately. 

    'Ren,

    The one problem I see with this is that the next time the individual/ 
state agency decides to screw up someones' life, they have a precendent of 
being able to get away with it. I hate to tell someone else to go out and 
be a champion for a cause, but in this case, it seems to be neccessary to 
get the state and the case workers to pay attention to the stupidity that 
they are inflicting on others. The sooner the turkeys realise that they are 
turkeys, and not swans, the more likely they are to begin to react with 
some sense of right and wrong. I don't believe they are all stupid in these 
state agencies, but some would seem to be and need to be called on it. 
Working out a solution, however easy for one, will not be easy for the next 
guy who'se ex might not be willing to work with him but very happy to see 
him get screwed by the state. (I use him/her here as the guy getting 
screwed, but I can see it working both ways) 

    Vic

    Seems to me that some aspect of basic humanity and compassion is
    MISSING in too many of these agency resolved cases.  At least that
    is the impression I get from reading the papers. Of course the papers
    only report the horror stories so the sample is biased.
    
    Jeff

    The compassion is lost because there is a bounty on your head because
    you work for Dec, IBM, Wang, etc. The game goes the more revenue they
    can drag thru their hands, the more they can turn to the feds and get
    matching money to care for those that are too much work to go after.
    The real deadbeats, the guys and gals who cannot hold a job for more
    than a month or so and drift. You make a hansome wadge, and are an easy
    mark for these agencies.