Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Are US parents so bad?  I don't think so BUT did anyone else catch the lady on
Donahue yesterday who claimed about the US..."this is a WHOLE COUNTRY in DENIAL"
What she was trying to CLAIM, is that EVERY US natural parent is a natural child
abuser and that they ALL are in a state of DENIAL.  Now I KNOW that child abuse
is a BIG BIG BIG HUGE problem, but My Personal Opinion is that this lady on 
Donahue went just a BIT too far with her generalizations...

So what about it all you parents reading this reply?  Are you ALL abusing your
children?  What's that?...be careful...someone might jump to the conclusion that
you are in a state of DENIAL.  Of course we KNOW that everyone abuses their kids
so OF COURSE you ALL are in denial!!!  (and therefore you don't even KNOW that
you're abusing your children)

    The lady on Donahue was Patty Davis, Ron and Nancy Reagan's daughter,
    and she was on Oprah. 
       

    Good topic for discussion.
    
    My second wife and I are expecting our first child in February.
    I have two children from my first marriage, a girl, aged 11 and
    a boy, aged 9.  I have joint custody with my ex and the children
    spend 50% of their time with me.  I am not always the best parent
    that I could be, but I always strive to do the best that I can.
    I make mistakes and I try to learn from my mistakes.  I would like
    my children to be the best that they are capable of doing. They,
    like me, make mistakes and hopefully will learn from their errors.
    
    One thing that is emphasized in our house is that you have choices
    and you need to take responsibility for your own actions.  As many
    people that have gone through a traumatic experience such as divorce
    can atest to, it's real easy to place the blame for some issue you
    have on someone else.  I've done it.  You control your future. Don't
    'deny' yourself that. 

    Anyone interested in parenting would find Johnn Bradshaw's books to be
    extremely useful. "The Family" was one of his first and is the best
    I've read when it comes to understanding The dynamics of family systems
    and how the parenting "mistakes" of the past are perpetuated to present
    and future generations. 
    			dan d
     

    "Granta" is a quarterly magazine published by Penguin (still U.K., I
    believe).  Their special issue on "Families" was subtitled:
    
      "They f**k you up"
    
    minus the asterisks.  (I have to put the asterisks in just in case Mom
    reads this.)
    
    Ray

    
    
    re 0
    
    re 1) a significant proportion of men are judged unfit parents....
    
    WRONG.  They are not judged to be unfit.  If they were to be
    judged unfit, the judge would not allow any contact whatsoever.
    Joint custody seems to be the norm today,but it is mostly only
    on paper.  Joint legal custody is very different than joint
    physical custody.  The judges need to put the needs of the
    kids first and do so without letting their own prejudices get
    in the way.  Only a very small percentage of parents both
    male and female are ever judged to be unfit.  This is why
    we see so very many cases of child abuse.  

    
    
    re .1
    
    Taken in the context of what she said re the whole country being
    in denial she was correct.  This country (at least the folks in 
    power) still insist there is no recession.  They still insist
    there are no social woes.  That is the denial she was speaking
    of.  The political forces don't care to see the homeless families
    and the jobless families.  That is denial of a very real and 
    tragic problem.  To not try to help them is denial.  
    
    I do not think she was trying to claim that every us natural
    parent is a child abuser.  Rather what she was trying to bring
    to light that for the folks who did survive dysfunctional families
    (and every family is dysfunctional to a point ie no family is perfect)
    the parents often deny that any problems existed.  I was raised
    by two alcoholic parents.  I was lucky though as no physical
    abuse or emotional abuse took place.  It was the hiding the
    truth bullshit that left its mark.  That clearly was denial. 
     

    re .0
    
    I believe that the view of the American family, like nearly all 
    of American society, is slanted by the publicity.  You hardly ever 
    see a "good" family featured.  Like one person said once "kids
    don't come with instructions".  I think it was Bill Cosby that said,
    "No parent sets out to deliberatly screw up their kids".  So each 
    parent just has to muddle through the best they can.  Yes we have 
    our share of crud, and yes, there are areas that could stand some 
    improvements, but by and large the vast majority American kids manage 
    to grow up reasonabley well adjusted good citizens. 
    
    With all due respect to those who _have_ grown up in disfunctional
    situations (I am probably more one of these than not) I think there 
    is a bigger problem with kids being undiciplined, self-centered, 
    spoiled brats than there is with "disfunctional" parnts.  Again
    not to excuse parents that _could_ use some improvemnt.
    
    >1) A significant proportion of men are judged unfit parents in a
    >divorce case, and are not granted joint custody. My estimate from the
    >anecdotes would be about 20%, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone
    >could correct that.
    
    I think you fail to take into account the outright biggotry of
    most judges that "mother is best".  Althought the laws have
    changed a little to make it easier to award joint custody, the
    judges have been slow to change.
    
    >2) A smaller (but not minute) proportion of women are judged unfit
    >parents. With the same qualifications I would estimate 5%.
    
    May be about right.  A mother has to be _proven_ unfit before
    custody is removed.  However, in _contested_ custody cases, only
    about 1 in 10 goes to the father.  We had a case in Colorado Springs 
    last week where a woman was *convicted* of murder during a drug deal.
    She was the dealer.  The deal went bad and her customer ended up
    dead.  The judge in the case released the woman on bond until the
    appeal process is exhausted (extimated to take 2 to 3 years) so
    "she could care for her child".  That is just about as far out of
    whack this system really is.  Could you imageine what would have
    happened if a *man* had been released under these circumstances and
    had custody of his child returned?
    
    >3) From the case in which a mother reclaimed a child from foster
    >parents, natural parents are always given the benefit of the doubt.
    
    Not always, but in the vast majority.
    
    >	Any comments on the idea of about half a million U.S. children
    >being moved to state "orphanages"?
    
    I think that that is just about all American parents need is yet
    anther government agency looking over their sholder.  
    
    fred()l;

    >With all due respect to those who _have_ grown up in disfunctional
    >situations (I am probably more one of these than not) I think there 
    >is a bigger problem with kids being undiciplined, self-centered, 
    >spoiled brats than there is with "disfunctional" parnts.  Again
    >not to excuse parents that _could_ use some improvemnt.
    
    I think to a large degree, if the kids in a family are undisciplined,
    self-centered, and spoiled, then it's a sign that the parents are 
    dysfunctional.
    
    					- Vick

    In order to have an accurate picture of the state of the American
    Family we need accurate and un-biased statistics. The public is
    continually inundated with data and forms a "perception" based on this
    data. To deal with a problem it has to be properly defined and IMO
    the picture is being distorted by "government stats" and the media's
    "sensationalization" of human issues.  

    I thought there were only lies, damn lies, and statistics.  I've never
    heard of an "accurate un-biased statistic."  I don't recall anyone ever
    successfully using a statistic in this or any other notesfile to prove
    a point to everyone's satisfaction.
    
    					- Vick

    some stats:
    
    
            Every 8 seconds of the school day a child drops out
            
            Every 26 seconds a child runs away from home
    
            Every 47 seconds a child is abused or neglected 
    
            Every 7 minutes a child is arrested for a drug offense
    
            Every 36 minutes a child is killed OR injured by a gun
    
            Every day 135,000 children bring their guns to school         
    
    
      

    > Every 47 seconds a child is abused or neglected.
    
    Abused by whose definition?  Swatted on the rear for stealing a cookie? 
    Neglected by whose standards?  Ignored because Mommy or Daddy was
    trying to contain the boilover of dinner?
    
    Statistics can be - and are - used to prove whatever point the person
    using them desires to prove.
    
    -dick

    RE: 13  Agreed. 
    
               What about the other points? 
    
        
        Dropping out of school, running away, drug use/sales , carrying
    guns to school, is probably neglect If not child abuse on the part of 
    the parent(s). Granted, dropping out of school or running away is not
    always an abuse problem, BUT where the heck are the parents while their
    kids are doing/selling drugs? How do kids acquire, keep, hide and sneak
    in and out of the house with firearms, without the parents being aware
    of whats going on? 

    
    
    re -1
    
    I would venture to say that half of the kids who run 
    away do so because they don't want to deal with the
    rules and regs of the house.  Two of my siblings did
    this with regular frequency and they always returned.
    The rules were not difficult to live by.  They just
    didnt feel they had to live by them and thought they
    could make the choice not to.  They found out that
    it just didnt work.  Reality is a real eye opener.
    
    These two particular siblings also dropped out of school
    upon turning 16.  Other than having my mom quit her job,
    which she couldnt do because it was the only source of
    income for the family, and take them by the hand to each
    and every class, there was little she as a parent could
    do.   Thankfully they both got their GEDs and are doing
    quite well in their lives today. 
    
    Carrying guns to school is not neglect.  In most cases
    now it is used as protection.   Yes there are some schools
    where walking through a metal detector is a regular morning
    ritual to get in the building.  Is that the parents fault?
    Or is it the fault of the folks who supplied the guns to
    the kids?  
    
    Drug use/sales.  This is a good one.  How many parents
    who trust their kids WANT to believe that THEIR kids 
    would be doing such a thing?  When I was in high school
    you could get any kind of drugs you wanted right on 
    campus.  Funny part is that the kids selling were ones
    who went on to college.  Only a handful were burnouts.
    
    There is just so much a parent can do to control the
    lives of his or her children.  They can instill values
    and morals and the only thing they can do is hope that
    the kids will heed the advice.  A parent really only
    has control up until such time as the child starts
    hanging out with friends away from the home and family.
    Parents can only set a good example and hope for the best.