Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    One shouldn't be very surprised when children are VERY, VERY pissed off
    about a divorce. The divorce is proably a hellava lot more painful to
    them than it is to the people who -after all- _chose_ to separate.
    And like it or not, children mostly have to take sides if in no other
    sense than in deciding which parent they want to live with.
    I sure as hell, would never want to have been put in that position.
    
    				herb

    Yeah.  This is a tough situation, and has happened to a few guys I
    know.  I don't envy you, at all.  But, as you know, teenagers tend to
    see things in a binary fashion.  I guess all you can do is hang in
    there and hope that when your daughter gets a little older, she will be
    able to see things differently.  Maybe then she will want some sort of 
    a relationship.  I hope you will be able to respond favorably, if, and
    when, that time comes.
    
    Mike

    When a fifteen year old tells you that they don't want you in their
    life, it has been my experience that they are really saying if you
    can't be everything I want you to be I don't want you.  It is not
    unusual that within the context of a good marriage that teenagers are
    disatisfied with their parents.
    
    What I have noticed is many divorced parents, especially non-custodial
    parents take the comments to heart and do indeed remove themselves from
    the child's life.
    
    I think it is very important to keep the doors open, to make gestures
    no matter how often they are rebuffed.  I think chatty letters or 
    phone calls just to say hi are important.  If it were me and the only
    thing I could do was deposit $1 in a savings account for the youngster
    I would do that and when the time came I could point out that I did in
    fact think of them, etc.
    
    

    I agree with the last two comments.
    That kind of response from a teenager could easily engender a lot of
    guilt.
    The divorce IS hurting -and is going to continue to hurt- the children
    very much. 
    I think that it is easy to react to a divorce with the same kind of
    feeling -but hopefully less intense- as to a suicide.
    Anger at the selfishness/inconsiderateness of a suicide is a common,
    response. It is -i think - a deed where the living victims 
    suffer much more than the non-living victim.

    re .1
    That's assuming that Lenny had a *choice* in the matter.
    But in any case you can safely bet the farm that in "life 
    according to mama" Lenny is the #$%@&-hole.
    
    re .0
    
    There are two approaches that I would consider. 1) Tell your daughter
    that you will *not* just "go away" unless/until you get a good
    explaination as to *why* she doesn't want to see you and have a
    chance to try and work those problems out with her.  2) Love from
    afar.  Unconditional love.  Keep working for her best interests
    even though you can't be there.  I guarantee that some day she'll 
    know.  Send her a card once a week.  Send small gifts for every
    occasion.  If she comes to you for money, tell her that you pay
    the support and you have a hard time justifying any more if she
    is going to treat you the way she's been treating you, but be
    careful that *that* doesn't become a game with her too.  Push gently,
    but keep pushing.
    
    Document *everyting*, keep a journal.  Log everything that happens
    when, where, who, what, etc.  Document sending the gifts and cards
    and letters.  The next time you see her, ask her if she's getting
    your mail.  If she say's no, you have a *major* law suit against
    your ex.  A journal is admissable evidence in most courts.  No matter 
    what, you'll always *be* her father.  No one can take that away from 
    you.  Not even her.
    
    fred(who has been there);

    I would like nothing more than to talk to my daughter on the phone but
    the phone # has been changed to a non-published # and I can't afford to
    go to court to get the # and even if I did the phone # would be changed
    time and time again. I have been writing letters to my daughter for
    almost a year now and have not received one reply back. I told her that 
    day that I saw her that I would like to communicate with her and be a
    part of her life but she said that I have changed too much . I told her
    that my love for her would never change and that I will always be her
    father and please not ot shut me out, but she still does not want to 
    communicate with me. I think it will be a long time before she may want
    to see me if ever, but my door and heart will always be open for her if
    and when she changes her mind.
    

    I agree with Joyce.  And, never forget that teenage girls can be very
    moody and emotional.  (I know! I have one, too.)  My ex-husband and I
    are on very good terms, and our daughter still lashes out at one or the
    other of us on occasion.  Then, two hours, or the next day, she's
    telling us she loves us.  I think the main thing to remember is that
    you're the adult and she's the kid, and try not to react to what she
    does the same as you would to another adult.  (Adults are always
    supposed to be more mature, understanding, etc, although, it's not
    always easy.)
    
    Lorna
    

    And keep trying to communicate with her.  Keep sending her letters,
    etc.  I hear how hard it is to continually write and not receive a
    response, but I believe it will payoff in time.  Continue to show your
    love for her.
    
    Karen

    
    i have no intention of ending the cards and letters. It just would be
    nice to get a response, but that will take time.

    Then you are on the right track.  Be patient, and I think that
    eventually your patience will be rewarded.
    
    Mike

    .6> the phone # has been changed to a non-published # and I can't afford to
      > go to court to get the # and even if I did the phone # would be changed
      > time and time again.
    
    Maybe I'm naive, but this kind of behavior sounds like it might be
    specifically proscribed in the divorce decree.  If so, would it be
    possible to go to court *and get your court costs back* when you win?
    
      > I have been writing letters to my daughter for almost a year now 
      > and have not received one reply back.
    
    Time to send certified or registered mail, return-receipt-requested-
    by-addressee-only.
    
    Leslie

    It would cost me $700.00 each time I take her to court. There is no way
    that I could afford that. I am still waiting to go to court for the
    divorce. As far as sending letters and having them sent registered mail
    that is not necessary, my daughter told me face to face that she is
    getting the mail that I send.

	why is your daughter's mind so poisoned against you?
	is this her mother's doing?

    It's possible but I cannot prove it one way or the other. She feels
    that I am committing Adultry because I am shacking up with a woman.
    I was not about to discuss things like that with a child. My daughter
    is hurting big time, this I know she  and her mother are both going to 
    the shrink to cope with the divorce.  No divorce is easy especially
    when there are children. 

    
    	mebbe you should discuss this with her.... at 15 she's not really
    	a child, and perhaps that may be fueling the fire against you.
    	the truth just could set you free.
    
    	denise

    I hear your pain and frustration, but there seems to be only one thing
    for you to do:  accept the fact that your daughter currently wants
    nothing to do with you.  In addition, you might think about accepting
    the possibility that she may never want anything to do with you.
    
    As much as you'd like to change the way she feels, you can't.  You're
    powerless over her.  What you can control, and change, is your
    reactions, and your feelings, and your acceptance.  Look around,
    there's help out there, you're not the only onw who has gone through
    this.  And good luck.

    
    What it boils down I feel is that my daughter needs time to grow up and 
    develope a mind of her own. She knows where I live/work and she has the 
    phone # of each. In between time I now have a new life to live, but I
    will always leave my door and my heart open for my daughter.
    
    Lenny Sundblom
    
    

    Lenny, she already has a mind of her own, and for now she's made it up. 
    As for the rest of what you say, I agree, and once again wish you the
    best of luck with your daughter.
    
    					andrew

    re .15
    
    >this I know she  and her mother are both going to 
    >the shrink to cope with the divorce.  
    
    Is there a possibility of contacting the "counselor" to see if there
    is any way that you could work through him/her to find out what is
    going on with your daughter.  If your ex is unstable about the divorce,
    your daughter is seeing her "hurt" and blaming *you* for her mother's
    problems, big time.
    
    re court
    
    Disclaimer--I'm not a lawyer, but I've been there.
    
    If you haven't gone into court for the divorce, could you get it
    written into the papers that you be kept posted on things like
    telephone numbers, school grades, etc?
    
    After that, if you do your homework properly (document, document, 
    document) it's not all that hard to file contempt of court charges
    yourself if necessary.  Make sure you have a good case before you 
    go into court, though, otherwise you can get stuck with *her* 
    attourney's fees.  Even if you don't get her held in contempt, if
    you have a good enough case that she has to pay for her own attourney,
    she isn't going to want to go through that too many times.
    
    fred();

    I'm afraid that my reply in .4 may not have been clear. I was
    trying to suggest that a divorce is analogous to a suicide in the sense
    that the kids suffer more than the parents 
    just as 'those left behind' by a suicide suffer more than the person
    who took his/her life.
    
    Of course, kids MIGHT suffer even more when a defective 'marriage' is
    not dissolved.
    
    
    				herb

    re .21 Herb
    
    >Of course, kids MIGHT suffer even more when a defective 'marriage' is
    >not dissolved.
    
    I know that there *are* marriages that just plain can't be fixed.
    Trying to find a sane and resonable solution to problems requires
    *two* sane and reasonable people.  But--thinking that there will
    be no more fighting and the children will be better off after 
    divorce is, for the most part, self delusion.  Unless one party
    gets lost or drops dead, or unless *both* parties are *extremely*
    sane and reasonable, the bitterness, anger and fighting will
    probably grow exponentially and last until the kids are grown.
    With the kids caught right in the middle.
    
    fred();

I agree with your feelings Fred.

However, I think the _biggest_ fraud perpetrated on kids this century in
the U.S. has been the violation of the committment implicit in parenting.

I've never had a divorce; but I'm the child of divorced parents.  And I'm 
sure that, human beings being what they are, it is certainly possible that 
divorces can hurt the children more than keeping a failing marriage together 
would have.  But in my experience, given the impossibility of undoing the
mistakes my parents made which ruined their marriage, I'm absolutely and
positively glad they split up.  I consider that to have been a very hard
choice for them to have made; in fact, it was made unilaterally by my mother.
It was very hard on my dad; and it was not easy on the kids.  But speaking
for myself, I had a much happier time afterwards, when they weren't lying
to us anymore, when they weren't pretending, when the posturing facade was
finally dropped.  As an adolescent, I *knew* when my parents were lying to
us kids; and they lost my respect.  I found it much easier to respect their
integrity again when they finally said: "this is it.  We're done.  Kids,
sorry, but you're gonna have to get used to a new reality.  We both still
love you, but we can't all live together anymore."  I don't know if my
siblings would agree, though.

DougO

IMHO, your children who seem to not want anything to do with you is only because
the custodial parent has poisoned their mind that the NCP is bad. In cases where
the NCP is real bad news I can understand their stance towards the NCP. Too many
CP's are painting a bad picture of the NCP, this in my opinion is low and at the
level of snake scum.

If the CP is an reasonable person and truly interested in the the child's
mental well being, they would not allow their personal feelings poison the
child's mind. Unfortunately in the real world, children are used as weapons to
inflict pain upon the other party. For CP's that stoop to that level, one day
they may grow up and face reality, but the price is high.

    Lenny indicated that his daughter felt that he had made some bad
    decisions and was living a lifestyle that she felt was inappropriate.
    
    I think it is important to realize that 15 year olds are very
    idealistic and opinionated.  My daughter did not speak to her Dad for
    years and it was not because of anything that I said to her.
    
    She visited him this fall and told me she remembered how I had told 
    her of his good points and how she wished she had listened.  He is
    active in Habitat for Humanity and was the subject of a half page
    article at the college where he works.  Reading this article was the
    point where she could come out and discuss and accept him for what he
    is not what she wanted him to be.  She realizes his strengths as well 
    as weaknesses now...but it took years.
    
    In summary don't assume that the CP has anything to do with the
    attitude of the daughter.  Realize that a fifteen year old can think,
    form opinions and take action independently.
    

    re .21,.23
    I hope that my remarks were not interpreted as stating that divorce is
    more painful on the kids than staying married would be.
    I simply meant to be suggesting that divorce is more painful for the kids
    than for the parents. I think that an unhappy marriage is probably more
    painful for the kids than it is for the spouses too.
    
    
    				herb

    Re: 25
    
    IMHO, it may not be that the Custodial parent has bad-mouthed or
    brainwashed the child against the NCP.  It may be that the child is has
    seen the CP hurt, and watches that hurt every day.  If I was, what I
    assumed to be happily married, and my husband decided to get divorced,
    it would hurt like hell.  Maybe the CP in this case is hurting and has
    probably cried quite a bit, and the child (or children) do see this
    even if the CP tries to hide it.  
    
    I agree that in some (sometimes most) cases, the CP does bad mouth the
    NCP (and vise-versa) and that does, in turn, turn the child away from
    the other parent.  However, all stories have two sides and unless you
    know the facts of both sides, then you don't know the *whole* story.
    
    Now, to get back to the base noter, I agree with what Andrew said -- 
    You cannot control the feelings of your daughter, you can only learn
    how to deal with them.  In time, I think your child will come around,
    just be patient, and be there for her when she does --- always keep the
    door open.
    
    Good luck & God Bless,
    Debby
    
      

As children of divorced parents my brother and I (just 2 kids) were poisoned 
against my father by our mother.  Now I am nearly forty and my brother is 
thirty-seven.  Having been married and a father myself for many years, I had 
gradually forgiven my dad since I began to understand some of what happens to 
married people in the course of their relationships.
My brother, on the other hand, is still extremely bitter, and won't even talk
to our father.  
I hope that you can break through and establish communication before the walls 
are too high and too thick to overcome.

Good luck and keep trying.