Conference quark::mennotes-v1

 Fortunately, my dad was ahead of his time with regard to equality between
the sexes. So following in his footsteps isn't bad at all. :-)

 (No doubt the people who think I'm a horrible sexist will think ill of
my father; their loss.)

oh, yes.  Every once in a while, I see myself doing something that is not
something I've *thought* about doing; I'm doing it because that's sort of
how its *done*!  Um, but not really, its just the way my father always did
that.  Some of these things are good, some of them are not so good; I mean,
I have a lot of respect for my dad, he is now, and for about 16 years has 
been, a very good friend of mine.  Ever since my mother and he divorced and
he sat down to try to figure out what was wrong with his life and how he
could keep from making any more big mistakes and, started talking to me as
a real person.  I was only 15 at the time, it had a big impact.  We lived
together for the last three years I was in high school; when he remarried,
I was his best man.  Sorry for the tangent, but its kind of important to me
to explain that while I may be critical of my dad in the next few paragraphs,
I do have a lot of respect for him and we're closer than I ever expected we
would become when I was a kid.

Its perfectly natural to have become quite similar to my father; after all,
he is the first man I ever knew, and I lived with him my whole life until I
went away to college at age 18.  At the same time, there are lots of areas
especially in interpersonal dynamics and the raising of children, where the
example he set when I was young was fairly harsh, authoritarian, and unable
to express emotions; unskilled at figuring out his own needs and desires, he
was unable to communicate them, and certainly he wasn't able to teach me to
do that by example.  In those areas, his was a bad example.  Then when he
made this major transition in his life, and started talking, he eventually
learned from thinking about the failure of his marriage that the people he
cared about couldn't tell what he needed from them emotionally just from the
way he looked; he had to learn to talk about what he needed.  I watched him
learn this, I spent a *lot* of time in my high school years listening to him.
It helped me through the rebellious adolescent phase, too, to have him going
through this big learning-to-talk, learning-to-listen phase.  I'd been just
about to start an open war on my parents by that time, when all of a sudden
all the rules changed as the family broke up.  So his example changed; and
I was able to see all kinds of things in that; that a hidebound set-in-his-ways
"old man" (he was 43 at the time) can still learn to make major changes in the
way he conducts his life; that the examples he'd set in some things as a father
were consciously repudiated and a new course was chosen taught me things like
learning to respect and talk to a child is a helluva lot more effective than
attempting to dominate that child with authority, for both parties; and other
stuff like that.  And in watching him change the parameters by which he lived,
I recognized that I'd unconciously assumed many of the same parameters.  I
think I'm projecting backwards in time here, a lot of this I've only come to
recognize much later in my adult life; but I learned it then even if I didn't
recognize what I was learning.  I'm a lot like him, for better and for worse.

At one point he'd loaned me his high school ring to wear.  I still have it; at
one point in my life, in my early twenties, when I consciously recognized just
how much like him I am, and how much work that means I need to do to become the
man I want to be, I started wearing that ring everyday as a reminder to myself
of that similarity, and a reminder of the process I'm in, for changing myself.
I honor him in part, and I warn myself against being too like him unconsciously.
I wore that ring for years, until I felt I'd pretty thoroughly understood that
lesson I was trying to teach myself.  Stacey wears it now, because its a kind
of important symbol in my life, and she appreciates/respects that.

To the basenoter's question: when do I see myself acting like my dad and say,
"OH NO!"  It happens when I get annoyed at my girlfriend's son, who is nearly
four years old.  Stacey and Erik and I live together, moved in together last
summer.  I'm not a father and don't plan to be; but I have to recognize that
I'm the adult male that Erik is going to grow up knowing, and learning from,
on just how to be a man.  And sometimes when he pisses me off, I react as an
authoritarian SOB, just like my father treated me.  Well, I'm working on it.
I'm conscous of where it comes from, and I'm working on *thinking* my way
through to appropriate reactions for the situation, instead of dysfunctional
reactions I learned from my dad.  Its hard to do.

Now in terms of the *specific* behavior patterns, attitudes towards sexism,
that the basenoter was worried about; watching my dad figure out what he'd
done wrong in his marriage was watching him deal with some ingrained sexism,
in addition to lots of other things, some of which I mentioned above.  I don't
think I got terribly sexist attitudes from him, and in any case I've chosen my
own path as a feminist for years now.  That's an example I'm proud to set Erik.
Now, if you'd asked about racism, I'd have a harder story to tell, because my
father, like me, is a product of *his* father; and my gradfather Loyal is the
most died in the wool stuck up norwegian racist SOB with an attitude I never
wanted to see that side of.  Serious problems with that man.  So my dad got
some of that from him, and I have to acknowledge I got some too.  I'm trying
desperately not to pass that problem along; I'm conscious of it, and I try to
get exposure to learn how wrong my fears are.  My dad is conscious of his
shortcomings in this area, which helps me recognize the right stuff; he is
trying to work on himself as I try to work on myself.

Well, that's probably more than you all wanted to know.  Recognizing the
influence of my father in shaping the person I've become is a strong part of
my identity.  I'm really glad I like him; I think it would be very hard to
ackowledge all of his influence, and figure myself out, if I strongly disliked 
or hated him.  And recognizing this influence is important in how I conduct my
relations with Erik, too; I'm glad I'm aware of it.  I'd hate to be making *all*
of the same mistakes over again as my father committed.  (By that, I mean I 
know very well that many of the influences my father had on me are so subtle
and deeply buried that i may never recognize them, may never be able to bring
them to the surface of my awareness so I can *think* about them, to *choose*
my actions instead of just reacting.  It'll be a lifelong process, I expect.)

DougO

    I hope it's ok with the men in the conference that I answer in here.
    
    I grew up in a *very* dysfunctional home.  It's only been in the last 8
    weeks or so that I have been able to see *anything* good that I
    received as a child.  
    
    My mother was way ahead of the times.  She was/is fiercely independent,
    insisted on having her own career.  She was not destined to be a
    traditional mother and I feel she would have been better off if she
    hadn't married and had children.  My mother did teach me that having a
    career is important, that working for a living and supporting myself
    was more important than being married.  I'm probably not making myself
    clear here because I haven't sorted it all out yet.  Suffice it to say
    that she did teach me that I *am* equal in a man's world and that I am
    just as capable as most men.  That is probably why feminism confuses
    me, because I was raised with those beliefs already ingrained.  Kind of
    like "Isn't that the way the world already is?"  Shocker to find out
    that it isn't/wasn't.
    
    My father is very traditional and Victorian in his attitudes and
    beliefs.  I think he struggled with the fact that mom insisted on
    working.  My father is a man that doesn't show his emotions, won't
    acknowledge problems.  What my father did pass on to me is courage,
    inner strength, and how to problem-solve and be analytical. 
    Those characteristics are very strong in me today.  He didn't teach me
    those things with words, he taught me by example.  How he survived what
    happened in the home as I was growing up and how he deals with my
    mother today (who has severe brain damage due to alcoholism and related
    medical problems and is *NOT* a pleasant person to be around) is mind
    boggling to me.  In the last couple of years we have begun to talk
    about my childhood, what happened and what he could have done to
    prevent some of what happened.  What I've learned most of all is that
    my father is a man of few words, he still has a great deal of denial of
    the problems (he still won't face the fact of mom's alcoholism or his
    own for that matter) but he does practice unconditional love.  He does
    and has accepted me for who I am, what I've worked on overcoming in my
    life.
    
    Is my dad my hero?  Yes and no.  He is not on the pedestal that I had
    him on for so many years.  In place of that pedestal, he has become a
    person, with faults and character defects and good parts to him also. 
    I admire him for taking care of my mother, as ill as she is.  I admire
    him for sitting down and listening, really listening to me tell him
    what it was *REALLY* like for me growing up.  It could not have been
    easy to hear some of the things I told him.  I know that he carries a
    burden for his part in all of that, but he has made his amends to me,
    not through words, but through his actions.  And for that I love him
    more than ever.
    
    DougO, thank you for sharing your story of your father.  I couldn't
    help but think how wonderful it is for you to have shared that with
    him.
    
    Karen

    My father is now, always was, and always will be a person completely
    caught up in himself.  He is awkward and self-conscious.  Once for a
    group photo I attempted to straighten his tie and he got really pissed
    off, though, of course he said nothing but just kind of batted me away.
    When I or anyone else talk to him, he doesn't hear.  He is too busy
    thinking about what impressive or interesting thing he is going to say
    next.  If I have to convey something to my parents I always have him
    put my mother on the phone.  He doesn't hug or kiss.  A handshake is
    all I've ever gotten.  The only time I ever saw him hug or kiss my
    mother was as he left to go out of town for a long time or when he 
    returned, and then it was a stiff necessary hug.  At the 50th
    Anniversary party we just gave my parents, he did not hug or kiss my
    mother.  He was always a "kind" person, never hitting his children or
    yelling at them, always ready with a handout of cash.  He always stayed
    up until all the kids had returned from their dates or whatnot.  He's
    a total sucker for a fast-talking salesman, something that drove me
    crazy.  He co-signed a loan for $17,000 for a guy who worked for him
    briefly that he hardly knew and the guy defaulted and left town and
    my father had to pay off the loan.  He was otherwise totally absorbed
    in his work.  When my mother was sick with cancer he took little
    responsibility for her care at the hospital or at home.  As soon as
    my sister arrived to help, he took off for work and stayed gone most
    of the time.  My sister told me recently that she gave up on my father
    early on and used me as the male father-figure while she grew up.  The
    only advice my father ever gave me was once, after my mother yelled at
    him and cried (I think because he had quit a job) he took me
    hurriedly from such an unpleasant situation for a ride somewhere in the
    car and the only words he said to me were "Women are like that
    sometimes."  When I ended my first short marriage in divorce, after the
    papers were all signed and sealed, he worked up the courage to say to
    me "I hope you're doing the right thing."  I felt like saying "Oh, F*CK
    OFF!  Where were you the rest of my life."  But I just smiled and said 
    "Yeah, I think it was the right thing."  The only thing he ever said
    about me personally was once when he kind of noticed me standing there
    and he observed, like he might observe some unusual feature of a rock
    outcrop or a tree, "You have the legs of a man and the torso of a boy".
    I have never fully recovered from the body-image that that one stupid
    insensitive comment gave me.
    
    So, you see, I'm not real fond of my father, even though most people
    who know him say he's the salt of the earth, one of the nicest guys
    around, who'd give you the shirt of his back (boy, do I know).  And
    from the age of 12 on I made it my life's ambition to be as different from
    him as I possibly could.  And according to my wife, there are no
    similarities between us outside of a certain physical likeness and 
    a few manorisms.  I haven't yet gotten to the point where I can forgive
    and accept him.  I don't think it will happen while he's alive.  I feel
    very estranged from him and can think of many other men I'd rather work
    at becoming close to, I don't care what the pop-psych books might say
    about healing the inner child.  And it's no hide off his back.  He is
    blissfully ignorant of my loathing.  He hasn't a notion that there is
    anything wrong in our relationship.  He even thinks we have one, I
    suppose.
    					- Vick

    Vick, you and you father have an adversarial relationship?

    Whatever, Mike, whatever.
    					- Vick

    Jim Katz,  
    	Thanks for you mail message.  I seem to be unable to reply
    to the mail address that came with your message, nor find any other
    address for you.
    					- Vick
    

    re:.6

    Do you think that could be the cause of your apparent disgust and
    anger towards some of the men here?

    Psychiatrists examine parental relationships as a root cause for
    such behaviors.

    I don't feel any anger or disgust at any of the men in this notesfile,
    Mike, though some men in this notesfile try to project those feelings
    on me.  In fact, the only time I recall being really pissed off at
    something someone said in a notesfile was at a woman in -wn- who 
    insinuated I wasn't a good parent.  The things I say may be annoying,
    but it doesn't necessarily mean that I myself am annoyed.
    
    Now if you want to talk psychology, the problems I have faced consist
    mainly of poor self-image and poor body-image, caused by an almost
    total lack of feedback (positive or negative) from my parents.  That's
    why, for instance, when I received my Ph.D. from the University of 
    Chicago (an event my parents didn't deem significant enough to attend)
    I didn't feel like I really deserved it.  Like I had managed to fool
    everyone into thinking I should get it.  I always feel that way about
    all my accomplishments. 
    					- Vick

    re: .8
    
    I think characterizing Vick's views as "disgust and anger towards some
    of the men here" is a bit strong.  That fits others far better, like
    one-note Wayne with his tireless efforts to protect Mennotes from
    male-bashing traitors to their sex.
    
    And if you're suggesting that only father-haters could agree with
    Vick's views of men, try again. I had a father whom I'm proud to
    emulate (see 578.11) and I agree with lots of what Vick says about men. 
    
    Kit

>    I think characterizing Vick's views as "disgust and anger towards some
>    of the men here" is a bit strong.  That fits others far better, like
>    one-note Wayne with his tireless efforts to protect Mennotes from
>    male-bashing traitors to their sex.

 That's funny. I see Wayne and Vick as foils.

    <I see Wayne and Vick as foils>
    
    Could you elaborate on that Mark?
    
    What I want to ask is 
    foils for whom?
    
    but not sure that's what you had in mind.
    
    				herb

>    What I want to ask is foils for whom?

 Each other.

    I assume he meant "for each other", as in to say that they weigh in at
    roughly equal weight and in the same style, but at opposite ends of the
    argument.
    
    I don't agree (because I think Vick contemplates many aspects of
    malesness, and is far more flexible in argument, and more respectful of
    others, than Wayne), but I did not assume Doctah meant "foil" in the
    sense of standing in for someone
    
    Kit

    'kay
    
    
    			h

    re:.9
    
    My mistake, then, sorry.

    re.0
    I never have heard a single sexist word from my father or for that
    matter a single bad word about anyone. He is a firm believer in the
    policy of "if you can't say something nice don't say anything at all".
    
    -j

    One of the hottest discussions I have gotten into in notes was over 
    a 'value system' I was taught by my Dad (and Mom) regarding appropriate
    sex role behavior.  I was always taught that a man should act like a
    man, a woman a woman, a boy a boy, and a girl a girl.  What does that
    mean...?  It means that according to 1950's culture sex role
    differentitaton is appropriate and in fact an advantage to Society
    To my utter amazement I got blasted from one end of the string to the
    other to even suggest that gender role behavior was either inate
    or appropriate in todays' Society.  I still think its appropriate and
    an advantage to have gender defined behavior patterns... as long as
    peoples' rights are not intruded upon.  I still carry my Dads teachings
    with me, modified as I think he was incorrect.
    I find myself with my son saying some of the things my Dad said to me
    and I hated some of the things he said to me.... now I know WHY he said
    alot of them.
    
    Jeff
    

    Not entirely apropos, but .19 brought to mind one of my favorite
    quotes.
    
    	"I admire a manly man.  I adore a womanly woman.  But I can't
         abide a boily boy."
    				- Winston Churchill

    
    
    Brian,
    
    Thank you.  As a former medical social worker I have witnessed
    many "last, long days" at the bedside of a dying man but never
    have I been made to feel part of it as you have made me.  Your
    father was fortunate to have you as a son and vice versa but
    the really fortunate are those that will be touched in your life
    by the "lessons of peace" you have learned at such a dear price.
    
    Sincerely,
    Jan

I moved .22 here from the separate topic where it had been accidentally entered.

			Steve