Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Brian,
    
    
    		By golly we agree on something. It took a while though.
    
    
    		HAND
    		Wayne

    Brain,
    
    	Wait till you find your sorry back side in court. Perhaps the light
    will dawn on you then.

    I have been very happily married for 24 years. I'm very glad i'm
    married, i'm very glad we waited until she was 27 and I was almost 30
    (met her when i was 27). I'm particularly glad we are married now that
    we are 'empty nesters'.  The thought of being 'alone' at this age in my
    life is scary. 
    Her parents are still alive, in their 80s, and have been an inspiration
    to me of how my wife and i will be living OUR lives over the next 25-35
    years.

    Herb,
    
    24 years...  So, what are you planning for your Silver Anniversary?
    
    How have her parents inspired the two of you?  What do you figure you
    and your wife have that others don't?  What have been the major
    priorities in your lives?  When you "fight", who wins?
    
    Sorry for all the questions but I think we have a good topic here and
    would like to hear more...
    
    Regards, Don

I've been through divorce and come back out the other side.  I still believe
in marriage, but it took me a long time to find a partner who shared my
values on the subject.  Not everyone is so fortunate.

Marriage is a social contract as well as a legal one.  Its roots go back
thousands of years, and many aspects of marriage involve the concepts of
women being chattel, to be bought by and sold off to men (consider dowry, and
the notion of the father "giving away the bride".)  The laws relating to
marriage are complex and at times self-contradictory.  The rapid changes
in the status of women recently (last 30 years) have resulted in further
confusion and a great deal of inequity for both men and women, as the rigid
rules don't often apply to real-life situations.

I believe that MOST couples get married, at least the first time, for all the
"wrong" reasons.  Very few seem to really understand what it is they are
promising, and have instead a fuzzy idea of marriage being "the ultimate
goal in life", after which one can stop trying to build and maintain a
relationship.  When divorce intrudes, the implications of just what marriage
means in our society becomes painfully obvious, to the utter astonishment of
most involved.

I can understand well that a man, who has been through a painful divorce,
may ask "what benefits does marriage hold for men?"  My response to this is
that if you still don't know, then don't get married again until you can
answer.  Marriage should be a two-way commitment for a lifelong partnership.
It's not a contract for free sex, or a means of financial support, or a way
of "proving" one's self worth.   And I agree with Brian that the sooner that
there is equal treatment of men and women in our society and laws, the
sooner we can rid ourselves of unreasonable and unsupportable inequities
in laws related to marriage.

				Steve 

    RE: .8  Steve Lionel
    
    > Marriage should be a two-way commitment for a lifelong partnership.
    > It's not a contract for free sex, or a means of financial support, 
    > or a way of "proving" one's self worth.   And I agree with Brian that 
    > the sooner that there is equal treatment of men and women in our society 
    > and laws, the sooner we can rid ourselves of unreasonable and 
    > unsupportable inequities in laws related to marriage.
    
    Amen!
    

    We are planning to sort of repledge our vows Dec 31-1992 (we got
    married on New Year's eve. 
    If we can afford it, we hope to have a silver anniversary honeymoon to
    make up for the fact that I caught the flu on our original honeymoon
    and we were evicted from St. Thomas (who would have wanted to stay?)
    
    Her parents care about each other, are solicitous of each other,
    respect each other, and obviously still love each other.
    
    What do we have that others don't?
    
    a) luck  -I was a hellava lot luckier than she. (but i was smart enuf
    	     to wait and know when I found her
    b) patience
    c) mutual respect
    
    Major priorities in our lives
    1)	our children
    2)	our mental health
    3)  her career
    4)  my career
    
    When we 'fight', she usually 'wins' at least in the sense that I blow
    up so badly that my response becomes the issue rather than what we were
    arguing about. I'm getting better.
    
    I don't typically do that on matters that are 'important'. E.g. matters
    that involved the health or wellfare of our children. Sort of 
    "it's too important to get angry about"
    
    

    Brian,
    
    Thats the disturbing part. I have read what you wrote. Imagine that!

    I think another important factor...
    By the time we had gotten married she had finished her professional
    training and had been professionally employed for two years. She knew
    what she wanted to do, was doing it, and was -and is- very good at it.
    
    She has worked in her profession ever since (with a 10 year break for
    our children).
    She has always been very happy both professionally and as a mother.
    When she was working as a mother/housekeeper, she did a hellava good
    job. She didn't stop being either a mother or a homemaker when she
    returned to work, and continues to do a superb job of all three.
    
    I think that my pride in her maybe even more important to her than my
    respect for her but its close.
    

.0>    PS. I wonder how long it will take for this to turn into a "What about
.0>    women" issue.

Since most Men tend to marry Women, don't you think that a Women's input on the
topic of Marrige is germane?

.1> So, let's get the ERA in the Constitution, and be done with it.

.8> And I agree with Brian that the sooner that there is equal treatment of 
.8> men and women in our society and laws, the sooner we can rid ourselves of 
.8> unreasonable and unsupportable inequities in laws related to marriage.

How do you see the ERA being a benifit for the State of Matrimony?  I get the
impression both you, Steve, and Wayne feel it is especially needed for Divorce.

.8> I've been through divorce and come back out the other side.  I still believe
.8> in marriage, but it took me a long time to find a partner who shared my
.8> values on the subject.  Not everyone is so fortunate.

How are you now different from your first Marriage?  Why do you think this one
will last?  (I realize the wording of the question is not very sensitive and
hope you don't read any malice into it...)  What/How will you teach your 
children to be "fortunate" so that they may have a successful marriage?

.13> I think that my pride in her maybe even more important to her than my
.13> respect for her but its close.
    
Why beat around the bush!  Just say that you LOVE her...

    <why beat around the bush...>
    
    I love her.
    
    We say "I love you" to our kids and our kids to us each time we
    terminate a phone call.
    
    My wife would like me to say "I love you" more than I do, getting
    better about that too.

    Companionship. Emotional support. Financial support. Someone to
    "belong" to, i.e. together we comprise a larger whole. I can depend on
    my wife to be there in the long run (ignoring the semi-eminent divorce).
    Sharing the workload of maintaining the household and running our home
    business. A sexual partner who really knows how to ring my chimes. A
    pretty face to look forward to seeing when I get up in the morning or
    come home in the evening. Someone to qualify for mortages with. Someone
    to grow old with. Someone to feel very tender about, almost safely.

    RE: <<< 691.13 by VMSSG::NICHOLS >>>
    
    Man, that's great 
    As a single man myself, it's refreshing to read your messages
    It is easy to read that you are proud of her, thats neat
    
    Most married men that I run into have nothing good to say
    about their wives, their marriage or their families ...
    and I've only meet a few who would not cheat on their wives
    while on a business trip
    
    Single men need to hear more positive things about marriage,
    especially that a marriage can work and lat
    
    Best wishes to you and your wife, and Thanks
    
    christopher
    

    re.8
    Don't forget equal treatment in divorce where most men pay a price far
    in excess of reason.
    
    -j

    RE:.0

    What's in marriage for men?  The same thing that's in it for women.
    It seems to me your going into marriage with divorce on your mind,
    in my mind that's a sure way to fail, if you go into a marriage with 
    negative feelings sooner or later you'll find a way to make it fail.
    I've been married 21+ years and unlike the previous noter I was married
    at 19.  If I had it to do over again I'd do it all the same way again
    (the women's a saint she has to be she puts up with me).  When the right 
    one comes along (and this goes for women also) grab that brass ring 
    because there's no telling when this merry-go-round will stop.

    Joe 

    re-.1
    I haven't stopped trying to get the 'brass ring' and not having the
    slightest clue where to look really makes the reach a long one.
    
    -j
    

	I'm no expert -- been married only three years -- but
	I think I'm closer to getting the right combo than a number
	of my buddies were:

	1) I married a peer, not someone that I couldn't respect
	   for her achievements/ability.

	2) I married someone who was old enough to be a person, not
	   some teeny-bopper.

	3) I married someone who didn't bring a whole host of
	   personality problems and wrecked finances into the
	   relationship.

	I've had buddies who married gorgeous 18 year-olds, and
	who were suprised when all they wanted to do was "Party, party,
	party!"  When the partying went on with lotsa other guys,
	my buddies were somehow surprised. !

	I've had buddies who married women who had been fry-cooks
	or clerks all their lives, and whose main interests seemed
	to center on which channel to watch in the nightly TV
	stare.  They couldn't understand why their wives weren't
	interested in sailing, flying, skydiving, etc.  They began
	to feel faint contempt for their couch-potato/homebody
	wives.  These didn't last long.

	I've had buddies who married brooding, manic-depressive types.
	They were continually trying to keep the home front together
	while juggling career and the usual mortgage, bills, etc.

	There are all sorts of really wonderful women out there.  Many
	women with lots to offer seem to despair of finding men who
	are squared-away, too.  Chances are, they won't meet each other
	at a bar.....

	Steve H

In all of Herb's replies one can see a common theme:

.5>    Her parents are still alive, in their 80s, and have been an inspiration
.5>    to me of how my wife and i will be living OUR lives over the next 25-35
                --------------------------------------------------------------
.10>   arguing about. I'm getting better.
                      ------------------
.13>   When she was working as a mother/housekeeper, she did a hellava good
                                                     ----------------------
.13>   job. She didn't stop being either a mother or a homemaker when she
       ---
.13>   returned to work, and continues to do a superb job of all three.
                             -----------------------------------------
.15>   My wife would like me to say "I love you" more than I do, getting
.15>   better about that too.                                    -------
       ---------------------

Herb's long term marriage (24 years) continues to evolve ("getting better") and
he shares his optimism for the future ("next 25-35 years") with us.  Like 
everything else, a good marriage requires continuous work else all you have is
just a relationship on a stagnant plateau...

.18>   Most married men that I run into have nothing good to say
.18>   about their wives, their marriage or their families ...
.18>   and I've only meet a few who would not cheat on their wives
.18>   while on a business trip

Unfortunately, this seems to be the case these days...  The "manly" way is to
piss & moan about how men are treated by their wives and then once the axe falls
to piss & moan about how unfair things are.  "PC" means to Piss and Cry in this
case.
    
.18>   Single men need to hear more positive things about marriage,
.18>   especially that a marriage can work and lat

ALL men need to hear these things so that a "PC" marriage could then mean 
Positive Commitment...

.20>   It seems to me your going into marriage with divorce on your mind,
.20>   in my mind that's a sure way to fail, if you go into a marriage with 
.20>   negative feelings sooner or later you'll find a way to make it fail.

AMEN to that!

Re: .14

> How do you see the ERA being a benifit for the State of Matrimony?  I get the
> impression both you, Steve, and Wayne feel it is especially needed for Divorce.

To me, the ERA is simply a statement of the way things SHOULD be.   That we
need to write explicit protections for equal treatment of women into our laws
is a sad reflection on our society. 

What I said was that if our society and laws treated men and women equally,
meaning without the notion that women need special "protections" in divorce
because of their handicapped position in our society, then there would be none
of this "the woman gets the goldmine and the man gets the shaft" mentality which
permeates "family law".  The ERA will actually benefit men in this area, as
it will force courts to be more balanced, but I don't believe for a minute
that passage of the ERA, which I do wholeheartedly support, will magically
wipe out all of the inequities.  But it will be the fulcrum on which the
lever of change can be supported, and men who want to do away with the
bias against men in divorce courts should push for the ERA's passage.

> How are you now different from your first Marriage?  Why do you think this one
> will last?  (I realize the wording of the question is not very sensitive and
> hope you don't read any malice into it...)  What/How will you teach your 
> children to be "fortunate" so that they may have a successful marriage?

I believe I have learned a lot since my first marriage.  I have learned not only
how to express my own feelings but to be aware of (and, I hope, sensitive to)
the feelings of others.  Having been through a painful divorce where I had
all my hopes and dreams pulled out from under me, I am now much more aware of
what marriage is as well as what it isn't.  Probably the most important, and
most difficult, lesson was to learn that nothing in life is guaranteed, 
and that both partners must continually strengthen their bond.  Or, as I once
read, you must "rebuild your love every day."

The primary thing I want my son to learn is respect for others as well as respect
for himself.  From that, most everything else follows.  A person who respects
their partner won't violate the partner's trust, a person who respects themself 
won't abuse their partner.

Why do I think this marriage will last?  Because I believe I have found a partner
who shares my values, my goals, and who has been through many of the same
experiences as I have.  Because we respect each other, and neither of us
attempts to take on a dominant position in our relationship.  But I don't KNOW
it will last.  Indeed, that's exactly why I think it WILL last, because we know
life offers no guarantees and it's up to us to make it last.  Ask me again in
30 years.

					Steve

     		What can I say I must be bitter. It is just that I see more
    "Material Girls" in our society today than solid "Life Mates". 

    		My observation is that a man with money will always have
    women at his finger tips no matter what he looks like, not so a poor
    man.


    			HAND
    			Wayne 

    <My observation is that a man with money will always have women at his
    <finger tips no matter what he looks like, not so a poor man.
    
    I agree with you Wayne.
    I would also stipulatate that an attractive woman will always have men
    at her finger tips, not so an 'unattractive' woman.
    
    The long term prognosis of a happy relationship is not good in either
    case, it seems to me.


    			HAND
    			Wayne 

    Re .26
    
    
    		How true, maybe the "Material Men" should get together with
    the "Material Girls".
    
    
    
    
    			HAND
    			Wayne

    
    RE: .27  Wayne
    
    > How true, maybe the "Material Men" should get together with
    > the "Material Girls".
    
    Either that, or the "Material Women" could get together with
    the "Material Boys."
    

    
    re:  sugar-daddies and beauty queens
    
    It may be true that rich men and beautiful women (alt. rich women and
    handsome men?) attract many of the preferred sex, but I don't think I
    really envy them for this.  Would you really want to have to choose a
    mate from a crowd of people most of whom would leave you if your
    fortunes soured or beauty faded?  Furthermore, it has been my observation
    that there is almost no one so ugly or so disagreeable or so poor that 
    they can't find someone willing to marry them.  I think everyone
    is presented with an equal challenge in finding the "right" person.
    I, like Herb, got lucky (second try).  But, even given that, it hasn't
    been exactly easy.
    						- Vick

    RE .128
    
    		No, I meant "Material Men". "Material Girls" was a
    reference to a Madonna song . If you intend to start your negative nit
    picking, please take it to Womennotes.
    
    
    			HAND
    			Wayne

    I am getting something out of these positive stories. It really gives
    me hope. Please keep them comming.
    
    
    		HAND
    		Wayne

    
    RE: .30  Wayne
    
    Madonna just forgot to sing about "Material Boys," that's all.  :-)
    

I've been married twice.  I've been divorced twice.  I'm not sure if that
makes me more or less credable but here goes.

In retrospect I'd say look for a mate that you are perfectly happy with as
they are RIGHT NOW.  Not what they could be with a little work or maturity
or whatever but how they are today.

If you find someone who is 'perfect' for you ask yourself how you are
'perfect' for them (be honest).

Be patient, don't rush the relationship.  Promise yourself that you'll get
to know them as a friend before you know them as a lover.

And lastly if you don't respect them and trust them, walk, no, RUN away!

patrick

    
    
    I agreed with 691.29.  If the man I have fallen in love with had
    tons of money, I wouldn't exactly turn him away, but he isn't
    "rich".  I have a few friends who are set on finding a man with
    a lot of money as well as him being a BEAUTIFUL man, that is 
    probably why they are still alone.  I am not rich myself, so I
    don't feel it would be fair for me to judge someone else because
    they are not well off themselves.  It is hard enough these days
    to find someone you are completely compatible with, and money
    wouldn't buy my love and respect anyway!!!
    
    Lady d
    

.24> That we need to write explicit protections for equal treatment of women 
.24> into our laws is a sad reflection on our society. 

This is exactly how I feel, however, I still can't shake the fear that passage
of the ERA would instead cause such a perversion as to be harmful...  You use
the metaphor "fulcrum on which the lever of change can be supported" and Jody
Bobbitt used "whetstone for the blade which will carve the future" (670.7).  I
could see it being the "match which lit the fuse to the bomb that exploded into
the gender war".  Why do I take such a pessimistic view?  Just look at some of
the responses/attitudes in this Notes file...  

Section 3 of the ERA: This amendment shall take effect two years after the date
of ratification.  What do you suppose is going to happen in those two years?

.24> But I don't KNOW it will last.  Indeed, that's exactly why I think it WILL
.24> last, because we know life offers no guarantees and it's up to us to make
.24> it last.  Ask me again in 30 years.

Steve, I think you're gonna make it!  Although I don't share your optimism about
the ERA, we both have June 7 as very important days in our lives...  Mine took
place back in 1975 so my bride Susan and I are looking at 16+ years.  If I don't
get home this minute I could be in trouble...

Regards

                   RANDOM THOUGHTS AND OBSERVATIONS
                 ------------------------------------                 [A
    
    It is my oppinion that we rely too heavily on laws to make this a
    better world. A better world doesn't lie in ratification of the 
    ERA. It lies within the heart and soul of each person, regardless
    of whether we are talking about marriage relations,racial relation[As,
    or international relations.
    On the subject of marriage and divorce, it has been my experience that
    until we are happy with ourselves we can never be happy with others.
    My first marriage failed primarily because we were so young(19 yrs[A)
    that we still had alot of maturing to do. Unfortunately,we grew in 
    different directions. Secondarily, we were under the mistaken idea
    that being married meant freedom and happiness supplied by our partner.
    Marriage is a beautiful institution ordained by God. It is what makes
    life complete.But, along with the joy of having a life time mate, [A
    comes the responsibility of putting her/him above all others. When 
    we give honor to someone we recieve honor. Negative input breeds
    negative emotions. Positive input breeds positive emotions and
    closeness.
    The unfairness of divorce in this country stems from years past
    when most women were not self sufficient. Now a days, women are
    more than able to be self supporting and the courts are beginning
    to reflect this in the settlements handed out. I am of the oppinion
    that unless there are children involved,all property should be
    evenly divided. When children are involved,they should be taken care
    of before the Mom or Dad are. 
    I feel that we generally go into marriage with the idea that ,if
    it doesn't work out ,there is always divorce to get us out of a mess
    that we got ourselves into. This is wrong. If we go into our marriage
    without a back door,we will make it work. 
    As I said , these are random thoughts and are being written with 
    many interruptions. So, if I seemed to jump around , I appologize.
    
    CZ

    .6
    
    Brian,
    
    	How was that emergency hearing? What was heard? Anything worth
    noting? 

    .24 Steve,
    
    	If ERA is passed, will there be a draft for women, equally?

.38> If ERA is passed, will there be a draft for women, equally?
    
    Hopefully it will never pass and this question is academic.
    
    Bubba

I hope there is never another draft.  If there is, women should not be exempt.

			Steve

    Agree with .40 (Steve) - I hope there is never again a draft, but if
    so, then women should not be exempt.

Kids Talk About LOVE    by David Heller
Reprinted without permission from Cosmopolitan (Don't know which issue)


What Exactly Is Marriage??

	"Marriage is when you get to keep your girl and don't have
	 to give her back to her parents!"
						-Eric, 6

	"When somebody's been dating for a while, the boy might
	 propose to the girl. He says to her, 'I'll take you for 
	 a whole life, or at least until we have kids and get
	 divorced, but you got to do one particular thing for me.'
	 Then she says yes, but she's wondering what the thing is
	 and whether it's naughty or not. She can't wait to find
	 out."
						-Anita, 9

How Does a Person Decide Whom to marry??

	"You flip a nickel, and heads means you stay with him and
	 tails means you try the next one."
						-Kally, 9

	"My mother says to look for a man who is kind....That's
	 what I'll do....I'll find somebody who's kinda tall 
	 and handsome."
						-Carolyn, 8

Concerning the Proper Age to Get Married.

	"Eighty-four! Because at that age, you don't have to
	 work anymore, and you can spend all your time loving
	 each other in your bedroom."
						-Carolyn, 8

	"Once I'm done with kindergarten, I'm going to find 
	 me a wife!"
						-Bert, 5

How Did Your Mom and Dad Meet??

	"They were at a dance party at a friend's house. Then
	 they went for a drive, but their car broke down....
	 It was a good thing, because it gave them a chance to
	 find out about their values."
						-Lottie, 9

	"My father was doing some strange chores for my mother.
	 They won't tell me what kind."
						-Jeremy, 8

What Do Most People Do on a Date??

	"On the first date, they just tell each other lies, and
	 that usually gets them interested enough to go for a
	 second date."
						-Martin, 10

	"Many daters just eat pork chops and french fries and
	 talk about love."
						-Craig, 9

When Is It Okay to Kiss Someone??

	"You should never kiss a girl unless you have enough
	 bucks to buy her a big ring and her own VCR, 'cause
	 she'll want to have videos of the wedding."
						-Allan, 10

	"Never kiss in front of other people. It's a big
	 embarrassing thing if anybody sees you....If nobody
	 sees you, I might be willing to try it with a handsome
	 boy, but just for a few hours."
						-Kally, 9

The Great Debate: Is It Better to Be Single or Married??

	"You should ask the people who read Cosmopolitan!"
						-Kirsten, 10

	"It's better for girls to be single but not for boys.
	 Boys need somebody to clean up after them!"
						-Anita, 9

	"It gives me a headache to think about that stuff. I'm
	 just a kid. I don't need that kind of trouble."
						-Will, 7
    

    gee thnx

    
    
    
    re Basenote:
    
    Wayne. What makes you think that Marriage is an all-win for women?
    I agree with your points on how it may be a 'lose' for some men,
    but you made it sound like women grow up with the sole intention of
    snagging some man who will treat us like princess Di and take care of
    us for the rest of our lives, until of course we decide to dump 'him'
    and take every cent he has.  
    
    Well maybe there's a side to this that you haven't presented.
    What about the women who get married for LOVE and then spend the rest
    of their lives 'outside-outing' smelly socks and serving beer and
    sandwiches for 'the boys' every Sunday afternoon.....or working 9
    hours a day at the office then coming home to make dinner and do
    laundry every day? And it would seem to me that 'deciding' to have sex 
    with only THAT ONE PERSON for the next 80 years affects the woman as
    well as it does the man....or are you making the insinuation that most
    of 'you guys' should be totally satisfactory in the sack for us old
    wives for the rest of eternity???  ;-)
    No picnic there either!
    
    Seems to me that marriage is a BIG MISTAKE for SOME people, and works
    GREAT for others.  Bliss or blame...depends on the two individuals
    involved. Depends on what you expect going into it, what you're willing
    to give up and tolerate while you're in it, and how much you hate
    each other if you decide to get out of it!
    
    cat 

    Been married twice.  First time at age 22 to a 24 year old woman.  We
    were married less than three months after we met.  Crazy.  We got
    divorced after two years.  Two years later we married each other AGAIN! 
    (No one ever accused me of total insanity, but I must have been!)
    We suffered through that second marriage for twenty years.  Finally
    called it quits, just to get healthy and alive again.
    
    I met a gal.  We became good friends over the network.  It was six full
    months before we ever met face to face.  By the time we did, we already
    were very, very close friends.  We married eight months later.  
    
    Best thing I ever did!  She was secure, mature, independent, didn't
    want to "change me" or "make me over".  We allow each other "space",
    comfort with each other, and are STILL best friends.  Neither of us is
    jealous of the other's time or private interests.  Neither of us impose
    ourselves or our interests.  We respect each other and our love
    continues to grow.  
    
    We are actively involved *together* in several projects and interests,
    but each of us have our own as well.  It's great!  
    
    This time around, marriage is bliss!
    
    
    tony

    RE. .44
    
    Cathy,
    
    	You are right. I have been very biased and not objective on this
    topic. It's like when a child touches a stove and is burned, it will
    take a while before the child realizes the the stove is not bad. I'm
    the child and marriage is the stove. 
    
    	I need to step back and regain my perspective. 
    
    		Thanks for the reply
    		Wayne

    Re: basenote
    
    On one hand you want marriage with the option of a fair divorce, then
    marriage would be great for you, but on the other -
    
    you're contesting have sex with the same woman, and only the same
    woman, for the rest of your life.
    
    Are you saying that - marriage is great only if the way out is fair?
    
    Perhaps your solution is not to marry the gal, but rather to live with
    one. (no legal binds)
    
    And if you wish to have children that you needn't ask or beg for
    visitation with, perhaps hiring a surrogate mom is the ticket.
    
    Why do you marry a woman that you don't want? if you are to be her meal
    ticket, don't you sense these things before you sign on the dotted
    line?
    
    

    re .48
    
    
    		Love is blind.
    
    
    			HAND
    			Wayne

    The definition of a bachelor is a man who never made the same mistake
    once.
    
    I think individuals have to evaluate the relevance of marriage to
    their lives in the same way they evaluate the relevance of organized
    religion.  Personaly, I have little time for participation in either.
    
    Kris

    So, Steve Lionel, what do you have planned for this weekend?

Heh, heh, heh.....

		Steve

    OK, gonna have some laughs...  Myself, I have something special
    planned!  We are going to hop aboard the Concorde and have dinner in
    Paris and then take the boys to Euro-Disneyland.  Boy, can't wait...

You're going to celebrate an anniversary by taking the kids to Disneyland?
Whatever turns you on....

					Steve

    I figured we would make the best of it since the nanny wants to have
    some time off back home...  Hey, what do you have against Disneyland?
    I can't think of a better way to teach my sons the importance of Family
    Values then by including them on this trip.  To each their own...

    re .55, what do "Family Values" have to do with Disneyland?  
    
    I don't get it.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .55, wow, you're flying to Paris just for dinner?  Where do you
    live?  And, you have a nanny for your kids?  
    
    I thought only millionaires lived like that...
    
    Lorna
    

    Have you ever been to Disneyland? It's the "Mecca of Family Values".  If
    not, then go and don't forget to bring the kids!

    re .58, I can't afford to, and even if I could, my only kid, my 18 yr.
    old daughter, and I, would rather go shopping and to museums in London 
    or Paris, than to Disneyland.  Disneyland has never interested me
    because it just seems too commercial for my taste, but each to their
    own!
    
    Lorna
    

    Well, the nanny does double as the maid...
    
    Someday when you are a Grandmother you will want to take your
    Grandchildren to Disneyland (either here, Europe, Japan, or that new
    underwater one being built) just to experience Mickey, Donald, and
    Goofy.  Imagine these characters talking the native language!  I am
    just so excited I don't know what I will do!  We did the shopping and
    museums - boring...  You can only take so much of those pretentious
    people at Harrods, etc.

    re.59
    It is obvious you have never been to Disneyland. I'll be 33 at the end
    of the month and can't wait to visit Disneyland/Disneyworld again it's
    the most fun I've had for the price.
    
    -j

    
    I've been to Disneyland and to Disneyworld.  Take your daughter to
    Europe.  Less screaming kids, better food, bigger thrills, and probably
    cheaper to boot.
    
    Lisa

    
    winnipeg has good french food ..

    	I wouldn't go to Paris for good French food - maybe Greek or
    Vietnamese?  If you want good French food you should try the small
    villages round Macon or Cahors (two completely different styles of
    cookery).
    
    	And your children might surprise you. When we took my daughter to
    the Louvre she wanted to see *everything*. Now since there are over 11
    miles (18km.) of rooms and corridors in that building she obviously wasn't
    going to, but the adults in the party were exhausted and starving
    before we managed to get her out.

    I thought Tokyo Disneyland was great.  And that's without knowing the
    language, just guessing the phrases.  (I've been to US Disney places
    more than a dozen times.)
    
    Except the 100 minute waits, of course.
    
    ed

Well, if you really must know, we'll celebrate by devouring a 2-pound box of
Ethel M chocolates.....

As for Disneyland and its various incarnations, I have nothing against them,
and have enjoyed the several visits I've made to both the Florida and
California versions.  It just seemed a bit odd to me if this was what you
were doing to celebrate a wedding anniversary.

				Steve

    re .63, really?  What's wrong with the croussants at Au Bon Pain??  :-)
    (love those chocolate ones!)  :-)
    
    re .62, Lisa, I'm sure you're right.
    
    People seem to be forgetting or ignoring that everyone has different
    tastes.  I think it might take eternity for me to get sick of shopping,
    browsing, museums, and theater in London.  
    
    When I have grandchildren I'll want to take them to art museums,
    antique shows, plays and concerts.  I don't care much for amusement
    park rides, and I think it's more important for children to develop an
    appreciation for the arts.
    
    I have very little money to spend on vacations, and what little I have
    I would never waste on something so far down on my list as any of the
    various Disneyland/world's.
    
    But, as I said, each to their own. It's just a matter of individual
    taste.
    
    I would love to go to the Louvre! *sigh*  (never been to Paris)
    
    Lorna\

.67> It just seemed a bit odd to me if this was what you were doing to celebrate
.67> a wedding anniversary.

Well, I have to admit, both my wife and I dote on our children and we have come
to realize that someday they will be off on their own and then it will be just
the two of us, so, since a wedding anniversary is really a "marriage birthday"
it's only natural that we include them in the "party"...

At any rate, Steve, I hope you and your bride enjoy those chocolates...

Regards, Don

      Herb,

      How are your plans progressing with regard to

.10>  We are planning to sort of repledge our vows Dec 31-1992 (we got
.10>  married on New Year's eve. 
.10>  If we can afford it, we hope to have a silver anniversary honeymoon to
.10>  make up for the fact that I caught the flu on our original honeymoon
.10>  and we were evicted from St. Thomas (who would have wanted to stay?)
    
      Regards, Don

    We can't afford it. It hasn't diminished our love