Conference quark::mennotes-v1

> I have a question I would like to open for discussion not debate. I 
> am not trying to offend anyone but I feel a need to ask.

Ok - I can live with those ground rules.

> From my observation Homosexual men who come out seem to emulate
> women. Let me explain. They seem to take on the feminine identity. 

My observation has been somewhat different, actually. Most of the "out" gay
men I know are into leather, and if anything are hyper-masculine.

> Yet I know some gay men who maintain a private sex life and they
> maintain a strong male identity.   

Hmm, I wonder if it might be that "sterotypical" gay men are more noticable? I
suspect that "masculine" gay men, even if out, tend to not get noticed as much?
	  	
> My questions is 'Why is it that gay men that come out try to 
> emulate women and strongly take women's positions on political matters'.

As you can see, I think the question is based on false premises. This is also
the first you mentioned "women's positions on political matters" I'm not trying
to debate, but I don't know what you mean when you say "women's positions" and
what observations of gay men's political views lead you to this conclusion -
so I can't comment on it specifically, but generally the view I've heard for
why this might be so is based on the "politics of opression" in that groups that
have traditionally been oppressed often show similar political views.

By the way, do you have similar observations about bisexual men who are out?

	-- Charles

    re .0
    
    I've met homosexual men that display the stereotypes that you cited,
    and ones that don't.  Those that do display those actions are most
    likely more noticable.
    
    Rich

.0>	  		3. female speech ( phrases and sentence structure )

    Wayne ... what are female "phrases" and female "sentence structure"

    Bubba

    PS: your 1-4 list ...don't forget the long hair, earrings, and tiara
        :-)

    I don't know any gay men who lisp; one has the same speech impediment
    that my ex-husband does, if that counts.  I think a lot of the "female
    gestures and phrases" you perceive can be attributed to camp, which 
    can only be done when one is comfortable enough about oneself to make 
    fun of society's stereotypes.  Charles' comments about "politics of
    oppression" is right on, imho--which explains not only their support
    of women's issues, but many minority efforts as well.  Most of the 
    'out' gay men I know look like jocks...because they are.

    BTW, could you please explain what "female sentence structure" is?

	deb

    
    
    re:  .0
    
    You obviously haven't met me!
    
    	Greg -- who thinks your "observations" are skewed
    
    

    I have known a number of men who grew up (frequently as an only child) with
    a strong mother and absent father, who were "effeminate".  I.e., their
    speech had a female quality and their movements were somehow more
    delicate and graceful then is stereotyped as male.  NONE of these guys,
    as far as I was ever able to ascertain, was gay, and I was pretty close
    to several of them and have kept up with them over the years.  Not only
    is the stereotype wrong in that it is not valid for a large portion of
    gays, but it is even more wrong in that probably most men fitting
    the description are not gay.  
    						- Vick

    None of the gay men I know are effeminate. None of the effeminate men
    I know are (to the best of my knowledge) gay.

    		Alfred

    It took a long time for my ex-brother-in-law to make a decision of sexual 
    preference. He denied and denied for many years, then made his choice of 
    homosexuality at age 17. He had been badgered and even abused all through 
    his high school years because he was "naturally" effeminate, even though 
    he had yet to even make his choice of sexual preference. He even had 
    several girlfriends in high school, and the choice might have been 
    different had he not been "influenced" or "pressured" into *making* a 
    decision of this sexual preference.
    
    But, as it was, when he did make this decision, initially he became 
    absolutely (pardon the term) "flaming" in his effeminate mannerisms. What 
    I believe happened was that when he "came out of the closet", all the 
    suppressed emotions and closed-up feelings over his teenage years finally 
    had a chance to be released during this, what I'll refer to as an 
    "adjustment period". He wanted to announce with a flourish of trumpets 
    that he was gay...but I think even his fellow gay friends took exception 
    to how he went about "announcing" it. In fact, his boyfriend even had told 
    me so on occasion "Gawd...he's *so* embarrasing to be with sometimes..." ;')
     
    After a time, and when last I saw him, this prone to being *overly* 
    effeminate had subsided considerably, and he was more subdued about the
    whole subject. 
     
    

    My experiences are the same as Alfred's.
    
    Bonnie

    Well, Mr. Basenoter, it seems as though your experiences are the
    exception as opposed to the rule ... maybe they're just looking for a
    date?  :-)  If I were you, I'd make absolutely sure my wedding ring was
    plainly visible!  :-)

    Bubba

    PS - I'm now divorced, but, I carry my wedding ring on my key chain so
    that I can use it when/where the situation dictates.

	Hmmmm.  This reminds me of the drama/music teacher
	at my high school.  The first time I saw this guy, 
	I swear, he was floating across the ground !

	Turns out this happily married, ex-Marine Corps
	drill instructor also demonstrated his manhood quite
	effectively to a couple of thugs in a bar one night:

	These two cretins insisted that the teacher's (quite
	lovely) wife accompany them out to their car.  The
	guy warned them once, but when one of them grabbed
	her by the arm, and suggested that "the fa**ot" try
	and stop them," all hell broke loose.

	This guy first broke a table, just to get their attention,
	then proceded to break the two thugs.

	He doesn't really get much flak anymore in town...

	Steve H

    If his name was Staff Sergeant Harold J. Riley, I know him.  He was my
    SDI at USMCRD, Parris Island.  A sawed-off little flaming queen who was
    hard as nails - Korean combat citations from his chest to his knees,
    and, he was 100% Marine, straight as the day is long.  This guy whopped
    the Hell out of me more than once ... mercy ... the memories ...

    Bubba

    .12>  -< I resemble that guy! >-
    
    Then you wouldn't object to being called a "sawed-off little flaming
    queen"--and in a notes conference to which you had no access?
    
    The rest of your reply sounds like you admire the guy, but "flaming
    queen"'s fightin' words, Bubba.
    
    Leslie

.13> Then you wouldn't object to being called a "sawed-off little flaming
.13> queen"--and in a notes conference to which you had no access?

    Hey, Sgt Riley would laugh till the tears ran - *that* I guarantee, you
    see, that was his nick-name ... he would laugh at anyone taking offense
    at the term.
    
.13> The rest of your reply sounds like you admire the guy, but "flaming
.13. queen"'s fightin' words, Bubba.

    He screwed up the trigger on a flame thrower once - ended up with some
    real "hot" stuff all over him ... the nick-name stuck ... 

    "admire him" ... I would have followed the guy to hell and back and he
    would have done the same for me.

    He was one hell of a Marine ... then again ... so was I.

    Bubba

    
    was that flamethrower properly registered with the authorities?
    
    i doubt that they'd let a civvie have one, otherwize they'd probably 
    be mounted on pickup trucks in Texas or NH..

    re .14  Wayne,
    
    Why would anyone be silly enough to ask *more* questions when you
    haven't even answered the last ones yet??  8-o
    
    RE the hairdressers:  Well that explains your exceedingly limited
    experience on which to base judgments!  I think it must be something in
    those solutions they use...the Newbury Street male hairdresser who lives 
    across the street from me could be one of your bleached-blond flaming 
    queens too - except for his gorgeous wife.  8^)
    
    	deb

    re .19  Wayne:  These questions...
    
.3> .0>	  		3. female speech ( phrases and sentence structure )
.3>     Wayne ... what are female "phrases" and female "sentence structure"
.3>    Bubba

.4>     BTW, could you please explain what "female sentence structure" is?
.4>	deb

	deb  (the grammar guru)  8-}

    RE .16 Let a civie have one...
    
    They had a flame thrower for sale at a fleamarket this year. I thought
    of buying it, but it was a little pricey; $650
    
    I am from NH though and I have a 10 wheeled drive 'pickup'
    
    
    Steve

    Flamethrowers are a farm tool. They are useful for clearing edge rows
    and assorted underbrush. Under proper conditions of course.

    		Alfred

    OK ... I'll show my age .. I'm talking about the M2A1.  A "lovely"
    piece for "clearing edge rows and assorted underbrush".  Just remember
    the formulas for the different types of fuels:

    Thickened fuel:  5-1/4 pound of napalm to 20 gallons of gasoline.

    Liquid fuel: 20 to 25 percent any grade of motor fuel or aviation
    gasoline and 75 to 80 percent light fuel oil.  The light fuel oil can
    be either No. 1 fuel oil, No. 2 fuel oil, automotive diesel oil, or
    kerosene.  One part gasoline to four parts of cleaned crank case
    drainings may be used also.

    Thickened fuels have up to twice the range of liquid fuels since liquid
    fuels are consumed  in flight .. additionally, thickened fuels tend to
    have a glue-like quality and can cling to and burn on the enemy ..
    er...ah...underbrush for up to six minutes ...

    Lovely weapon ... er ... brush cleaner ...

    Bubba

    re .21
    
    Thanks, Wayne - specific examples of what you're referring to would be
    appreciated.  I'm extremely curious as to which phrases are
    automatically "generated by the female thought process."
    
    	deb

"Lovely" is almost exclusively used by women and effeminate men (except
when the meaning is ironic).

	"Precious" when not referring to "precious gems" or
	"precious freedoms" or the like.

	as:

	"Oh, that dress is just PRECIOUS !"

	---------------------------------------------------

	"To die for"

	as:

	"Bruce Willis is a hunk, but Johnny Depp is to die for !"

	---------------------------------------------------------

	Not a phrase, exactly, but I consider lengthy discussions
	of tablecloths, napkins, flower arrangements, etc. to
	be almost exclusively female, with the exception of male
	caterers (whose business, presumably, it is to discuss these).

	as:

	"And they had the most lovely lace tablecloths, and the
	napkins were off-beige and PRECIOUS !"
	-----------------------------------------------------------

	Steve H

Re: .27


The phases you cite as examples of typical female sentances/words are to me
more typically "american" than female...


Thank God they haven't crossed the Atlantic yet...

    
    I have to agree with -1, I've never heard "to die for" from any woman
    here in the UK.  "Lovely" is another matter though ... :-)
    
    Sam
    

    I thought people in the UK used the expression "lovely" a lot.  For
    instance, if a waiter said, "How is everything?" I thought it was
    common for British people to say "Lovely" instead of "Fine, thanks"
    like in America.  No?
    
    Lorna
    

Re: .30

Well I don't use it, and I certainly don't hear it...."Fine, thanks" is much 
more the suitable for understatement...

Except of course in that advert for Philadelphia cheese....and that supposed
to be amusing...

    re .31, well, a friend of mine, an American, has been working in the
    Ayr plant for the past 3 years and he has picked up the habit of using
    "Lovely" in the manner I described, and when I asked him why he says
    "Lovely" all the time now, he said he picked it up in Britain.  So, I
    don't know.  Maybe it's more common in Scotland.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,

    > Maybe it's more common in Scotland.

    Your friend went to Scotland? Oooh, lovely!

    Seriously though, I live in the south of England, and I do use, and 
    hear, `lovely' in just the sort of situation you described, from both 
    men and women.

    June.

    "OW woodent it be loverly?"

    Careful Vick, she might attack you with an easy chair and a comfity
    pillow! :)

    
    not the COMFY CHAIR!
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  "give the rack a twist!"

    It might be even more deadly!! She might say to him,...... "What T.V.
    program do you wanna watch Vick?"
    And Vick would say,"But I don't watch T.V.!!!! AAAARRRRG!!!! Help!!!" :)

       <<< Note 671.36 by LEZAH::BOBBITT "summer shade and sweetwater" >>>

    
>    not the COMFY CHAIR!
    
>    -Jody
    
>    p.s.  "give the rack a twist!"

Jody,

	Just remember:


	NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!

    I was at a lecture on computer music once, and the lecturer said
    something like "There are three reasons why this is great software." He
    went on to list _four_ reasons. When he said "Fifth,..." and paused, I
    couldn't help shouting "And an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope!"
    
    It was great: in a room of fifty people, about four started laughing
    hysterically, and the rest looked at me like I was out of my blinkered
    mind. Fortunately, the lecturer was a Monty Python fan and got and
    enjoyed the joke.

    Re .39: I thought "Spanish inquisition" was a Mel... um, a Mel - oh,
    heck, my mind's a blanc these days - Mel Whats-his-name reference, not
    a Python. Or was he ripping them off - er, paying homage to them?
    
    -b

                        <<< Note 671.40 by DTIF::RUST >>>

>    Re .39: I thought "Spanish inquisition" was a Mel... um, a Mel - oh,
>    heck, my mind's a blanc these days - Mel Whats-his-name reference, not
>    a Python. Or was he ripping them off - er, paying homage to them?
    
Nope, it was Python.

            <<< ILLUSN::DKA300:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MONTY_PYTHON.NOTE;1 >>>
                       -< Sudden ... violent ... comedy >-
================================================================================
Note 148.0         I didn't expect the Spannish Inquisition...         3 replies
AZUR::JANIK "Have you ever 'retired' a human by acc" 26 lines   3-JUL-1991 10:43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NNNNNNNNO-body expects the Spanish Inquisition !

Our weapon is Surprise.
Surprise and Fear...
Fear and Surprise...
Our TWO weapons are Fear and Surprise...
and Ruthless Efficiency...
Three...
Our Three weapons are :-
	Fear
	Surprise
	Ruthless Efficiency
	and an almost Fanatical Devotion to... FOUR !

Our Four...

Amongst our weapons are such elements as :-
	Fear
	Surprise
	Ruthless Efficiency
	and an almost Fanatical Devotion to the Pope

Editor's note : I'm surprised nobody thought of that one before...


					Cardinal Phang.

    Funny, I have that tatoo'ed to the bottom of my right foot. As so to
    put my foot down, and my right foot forward..... Gee, did really say
    that?:)

    
    Ah ha, I see we've gotten a couple of examples of "female" speech.
    
    Well, from my experience...I've heard both men and women use "TDF".
    The only times I can remember hearing "lovely" was during a visit by 
    some relatives from the UK--a 70-something year old woman and her 
    21-year old granddaughter-in-law.  I have never heard anyone of either 
    sex or any sexual orientation use "precious."
    
    Still sounds like simple stereotyping to me, folks.