Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Incredible ... I'm mildly superstitious ... the note as I originally
    entered it was #666 ... the sign of the devil ... maybe that was a
    sign that answers my question?  I couldn't let it stand though ... I
    moved this to #667.

    Damn.

    I know what you mean. The feeling of love that I had when I was younger
    just doesn't seem to be there anymore. I miss it.
    
    
    			Wayne

    
    well there 2 of you who won't be competing with me for dates ..

    
    I've found that my idea of what love is has changed over the years.
    
    I am very unlikely these days to "fall in love" - that crazy, totally 
    out of control, boundry-merging and self-obliterating state which I so
    valued and sought when I was a teenager. I think I've lost my capacity
    for that, but I don't miss it.
    
    Now, I value more the slow, steady flame of "loving" rather than
    being "in love". And my capacity for that has GROWN (along with
    my patience and realism) as I've got older.
    
    'gail

I don't believe that I've lost the CAPACITY to love - I find that I miss
someone when they move away;  I can even miss a friends kids.  To me that
shows that love had developed over the time that we spent together.  Of course
when it develops slowly it's more difficult for you to realize that it is there.

I do believe that I've lost the ability to fall in love - probably a bit of
cynicism, probably a bit of learning from bad relationships that I've gotten
myself into.

Rich

re .3 - I don't know if that means that I'm not competing with you or not.

    
    
    I don't think I've lost the capacity to love, but I find, because of
    past experiences, that I'm not initially very trusting of people that
    indicate an interest in me.  Rather than "falling in love", I think I'm
    (even as we speak) "growing into love".
    
    	GJD

    Hi Bubba,
    
    I understand what you're talking about.  I've felt the same way about
    feeling "love" lately.  I can't seem to feel anything.  I have very
    strong feelings for my nephew (I have no children of my own), and for
    my 14+ year-old cocker spaniel, but other than that I sorta feel numb.
    
    The fact that you realize you're feeling the way you are, and that you
    are accepting it, is a good sign.  I don't like feeling "blah", and I'm
    working on getting in touch with my emotions again.  (It's so difficult
    sometimes...)  I don't think there's anything wrong with not feeling
    love, except you don't get much back if you don't put anything into
    it.  That's the part I'm having a tough time with.  I miss feeling
    good inside.  >sigh<
    
    -Janice

    
    	Bubba,
    
    	Given the definition of Love as "an extension of one's own being
    for the emotional and spiritual growth of another person", perhaps
    you're not as incapacitated as you believe. For example, if you
    can simply "be there" for another person when they're "going through"
    something (developing emotionally and spiritually) that willful
    presence on your part is an act of Love.
    
    	As an example, attending ones son's Confirmation ceremony is
    an act of Love on ones part. Going out drinking with the guys while
    he's being confirmed is not. Even "noting" - if done as an extension
    of yourself (you took some of your lunch-time to make a reply) for
    the purpose of hearing, touching, understanding, connecting-with
    (not to argue or defame) another person, can be considered an act
    of Love.
    
    	There's a useful theory which holds that we can act a part until
    we feel it - vs trying to feel it until it somehow shows up in our 
    actions. You can feel Love in your life again.
    
    	Joe

    
    I think people find it hard to "fall in love" anymore, it seems like
    this is such a selfish society where no one gives anymore.
    
    But love comes in different forms. I feel it from my friends and my
    family and that is a nice feeling. I know I give it back to them, even
    if it is with the small things I do.
    
    I tend to be to trusting of people and what they say and that has hurt
    me in the past, turning me to not want to love anyone again. It takes a
    while to open your heart again after being bashed, but someday we all
    find love, and the person that will give that to you.
    
    I firmly believe to feel real love, you must be able to feel happy with
    yourself. 
    
    

    I just opened this conference for the first time several minutes ago
    and found this note on 'the capacity to love'.  It just happens that
    	I am currently trying to develop more capacity to love myself.
    	Each moment appears as an opportunity of time to take care of
    myself.  It is becoming Ok just to be myself whether the feelings
    	are good or bad.  I find meditation a useful tool to calm myself 
    	and be myself in the present moment.  My idea that loving oneself
    	is selfish is weakening because I see the distinction between
    self-love and other-love blurring.  I naturally love others without
    fear when I totally accept myself 100% in this moment.  My capacity to 
    	love is growing (for today anyway) and it seems like the first time
    	only I'm not as attached to the feeling because my confidence to
    re-create it is growing.  After all, I have another moment and I
    deserve to use it the way I choose.  This doesn't mean I don't have a
    lot of problems in my life. I do.  I'm going through a very difficult 
    	time and I'll probably ask for some input in a separate note later.
    I feel good that I have tried to express myself honestly.
    -Richard
    
      

    Richard
    
    You did a great job!  Best Wishes on your quest...

    There's no doubt in my mind that the terrible uncertainty in which we
    live day to day in our jobs has something to do with these feelings.
    The underlying fabric is called "depression". 
    I saw in last Sunday's NY Times that there's a semi-illiterate man in a
    Mexican jail whose income (from jail!) is over 100 MM dollars/year! How
    does he do it? Selling drugs through an army of subordinates, of
    course.
    There's something terrible wrong in this world when we have well
    educated professionals hardly making any money and having to live with
    continuous uncertainty about their destiny, both professionally and
    financially.
    
    But going back to the subject of the capacity to love, let's look at
    what has happened:
    I can only speak from the heterosexual point view. To me, women in the
    last few years have become less and less admirable. This has been the
    result of a combination of factors and I really cannot blame them. It's
    just the way I react or feel when I see how they act! Maybe the
    emphasis on TV and the movies on women being so wonderful and men so
    stupid or criminal is backfiring! There's also the fact that the most
    rapturous feelings of love I had, happened when I was a teenager who had
    not discovered that women can lie, cheat, take advantage of your
    vulnerability, use their appeal for financial gain, etc. 
    Now we are grown ups and part of growing up is realizing that neither
    women, nor the world, nor ourselves are perfect! But along this process
    we lose something too: the capacity for enchantment, for being crazy
    about someone.
    So we manage to love but without the magic feeling. We desire but
    without intense passion. We certainly don't write poems to women
    anymore! Even songs go the "Me so horny..." route rather than "The first
    time ever I saw your face..."
    
    I would like to change this but I don't know how ! Perhaps in my next
    reincarnation...

    This is really a cool note.
    
    Falling in love was so much fun.  As my ex and I are reunited, but
    not remarried, the "awe or such wonderfulness" of what marriage
    use to mean to me is somewhat gone or blurred.  It saddens me somewhat.
     It also prohibts me from falling in love where I feel overwhelmed-(in
    a nice way that is).
    
    I know that we were capable of breaking up and truly not loving
    each other at all.  This hampers me, and I believe him as well,
    from doing all those first time around things.
    
    Like, I'm not sure marriage means with God involved anymore, like
    I once did.  Sex isn't as romantic, if that's the right word, as
    I once thought it to be or mean.  "cause I know now, that sex with
    anyone or anything or alone can work too.  I'm too afraid to totally
    give myself "in love" for fear that'll I be burned again.  So, you
    keep this certain distance.
    
    Like, I don't want to get all choked up over a ring, or even want
    to want one anymore.  It seems too girlish.  Everything that use
    to mean so much, doesn't anymore.  That "first time around" spark
    isn't quite there anymore.  And in a wierd kind of way, I know that's
    good.
                       

    re -1
    
    	Change the gender and your note works foe me too.
    
    
    			Wayne

    It's very interesting how we all interpret love in different ways, 
    and what aspects we all choose to write about here...but I think the 
    bottom line is a mutual feeling of once you get burned you are cautious
    about loving another.
    
    My only real feeling of 'love' came from a relationship where one 
    who could make me feel in heaven also made me feel like I was living
    in h*ll.  As I told him - no one could make me so happy, but no one
    has EVER made me SO SAD.  I felt this person was a part of my soul.
    
    I think there's a lot to be said (for me anyway) in getting older,
    and realizing that no one is perfect and nothing is guaranteed.
    
    I am glad to be sitting here today, and not going through what I
    experienced last year at this time.  There is a lesson to be learned
    from every experience...well, I learned the toughest one of my entire
    life (so far anyway)....
    
    This note is filled with a lot of 'I' - what I wanted to say is that
    for another man in a relationship to tell me he loves me would be
    devastating to me at this point.  I have a lot of self-evaluation to
    do, and find out 'who' I want to be in a relationship with.
    

    
    We live in a world where so many people want things to be perfect.
    Just look at all the singles notes or ads out there. Most are looking
    for the perfect man or woman. What ever happened to finding someone who
    you can talk to and have fun with and cry with when things are going
    wrong.
    
    I think woman give alot into relationships and I am sure men do also,
    but it seems that women have this capacity to love more then most men
    do. 
    
    When someone gets burned enough times, they retreat into themselves
    and when they do find someone who they really like, it's hard to
    express those feelings again for being afraid that the same thing will
    happen again, that the other person will soon be deciding to find that
    perfect person again. Then humans retreat again, hiding whatever
    feelings they may have in fear.
    
    I am so tired of hearing people say they don't know what they want.
    That gets so old after awhile. My advice is "Find what you want from
    life and yourself."
    
    I've almost given up the idea of having a normal relationship and the
    thought of getting married because I find that I give more with little
    in return. So, I have learned to be happy with my life.
    
    Sounds gloomy, but after a while, the games of love get tiring.
    
    Mary
    
    

    Re:  667.16
    
    I know it's a cliche, but one that I've found to be true - time heals
    all wounds.  I know you've been hurt but, don't make the mistake of
    building a protective little cocoon around your heart.  The person that
    suffers the most from behavior like that is yourself.
    
    I won't tell you that you will find a substitute for the relationship
    you had with your "soulmate" because you won't; each relationship is
    different.  But, you can find someone who can make you just as happy
    with, hopefully, a lot less of the sadness you spoke about.
    
    I hope I don't sound like I'm lecturing.  It's just that I've been
    there and I did build that protective cocoon around my heart and would
    hate to see someone else make that mistake.  Self evaluation is fine;
    just don't be too hard on yourself.  And, if you can't just yet open
    the door to your heart at least keep the door unlocked because you
    never know who'll come calling!
    
    Diane (the hopeFUL romantic)
    
    
    
    

    Bubba,
    
    Define CAPACITY to love.  Are you not WILLING a.k.a uninspired,
    or just COMFORTABLY NUMB?

	I tell ya what gives ME hope !  

	Years after my Dad died, my Mom began seeing a guy about
	seven years her senior.  He took care of her like I've 
	never seen.

	She sort of didn't commit to getting married for a long
	time, but they were steady companions.

	Then, she was diagnosed with a fast-moving cancer.  He
	stepped up the pressure for her to marry him !  When she
	did, in a happy-sad ceremony, he was overjoyed.

	As she weakened, he had special beds installed in his house,
	he prepared the special (unappetizing, to her) foods for
	her and served it with silver and on crystal.

	He spent up to 2 hours each night just making her comfortable
	so she could get some sleep.  When she died, he was just
	about crazy.

	And here's the kicker:  This man, who SIGNED UP for what
	he knew would be a painful episode had gone through another
	trial with his first wife, decades before.  His first wife
	had been a paranoid-schizophrenic who had actually tried to
	kill him a couple of times, and finally killed herself.  He
	had stuck by her in all her agony, and toward the end, had
	locked himself in his own bedroom at night for safety.

	I know there's the capacity to love in most of us, even when
	we think we've reached our limits.  I only hope that I can
	learn to love as much, and as deeply as my stepfather, Dick.

	Steve H

    
    Steve,
    
    Unconditional Love is sooo contagious!  When a story like
    yours can reach beyond all the other self-serving definitions of
    Love , and fill your soul with so much hope and joy, sometimes
    that's enough.  
    
    Thank you.
    

.20> Define CAPACITY to love.  Are you not WILLING a.k.a uninspired,
.20> or just COMFORTABLY NUMB?

    Good question - now, I have to come with an answer.

    I *feel* as though I simply don't have it in me any longer - that it's
    not there - maybe "numb" is the word ... I don't feel that I *can* love
    anyone.  Difficult to explain.  Like I said, the worst part of it all
    is that it doesn't bother me.  I remember what it was like being in
    love - it was as though it happened once and now it's gone - sort
    of like virginity.

    I honestly feel as though IRRESPECTIVE of the love that someone gives
    me, I simply can't return it.  Friendship - yes, no problems, but,
    there's a BIG difference between love and friendship.

    Damn.  This is difficult to put into words.

    Bubba

    Bubba,  For something that doesn't bother you, you sure are talking
    a lot about it.
    					- Vick

    Hi Bubba,
    
    What did "love" feel like to you when you could feel it?  The reason I
    ask is because love feels different to everyone.  Some people have love
    confused with intensity, others have it confused with pain, and so on.
    What did it used to feel like?
    
    -Janice

    
    After losing my father a few years back. (He was murdered by his second
    wife who turned out to be a Black Widow.)  I find it very difficult to 
    to trust people like I used to.  I know that I don't consciously avoid
    interaction with others but sometimes I wonder if I'm giving off
    signals that I am not aware of.   I have 5 Brothers and sisters and we
    are all very close and they say some of the same things.  I have let go 
    of the anger ( the woman walked on the murder charge and got a
    suspended sentence on insurance fraud) but I find the everyday trust
    in my fellow man somewhat lacking.  Of course, 4 years of litigaton
    could turn anyone into a cynic.
    

    What is a "Black Widow"???

    A "Black Widow" is a woman (there have been "Black Widowers" as well)
    who marries a man to kill him (or wait for him to die) so she can
    have his worldly possessions.
    						- Vick

    Thanks....very sinister!!:-(

    I find this topic particularly interesting and as I reflect on my own
    history of loving, I've discovered a few things.
    
    First of all, since my EXTREMEMLY painful and sticky divorce of 12
    years ago, I have been VERY selective of who I let into my 'inner
    circle'.  I have many friends, however, VERY FEW make it into the
    'inner circle'.  To be perfectly honest only 1 that I can think of.  I
    am a firm believer of the saying, "You don't know your friends until
    you have problems", this is very true.
    
    Yesterday I went shopping and saw two women whom I had not seen since
    my divorce.  I had a steady circle of 6 woman friends that met
    approximately once a month to do 'something' together.  Bowling,
    dinner, movies, roller skating, whatever satisfied our fancy for the
    evening.  Well to make a long story short, when my ex and I separated
    they completely threw me out of the ring.  I was in essence,
    excommunicated.  When I saw two of the women yesterday at the grocery
    store and they both stopped and in unison said, "Hi ESTELLE, HOW ARE
    YOU?"  as if the past 12 years had not even happened, I surprised
    myself at how little I cared about them.  I simply returned the
    greeting (without stopping or missing a beat in my step) 
    and said "I'm doing VERY well ladies, thank you!" and continued 
    on my way.  It was such a wonderful feeling to know that I DIDN'T CARE
    ANYMORE!  I've grown!  I've moved on, and I will NOT allow them to hurt
    me anymore.
    
    When I arrived home, I took time to evaluate my present circle of
    friends, and how much more genuine they are.  This did me good.  I
    wonder if this means I have a better capacity for love?  Or . . . 
    I'm not sure.  I'm VERY comfortable with having less friends/rela-
    tionships.  What is important to me is how genuine and how important I
    am to them.  I don't want to hear it; I want it demonstrated.  Then
    once it is demonstrated they become a piece of my life.
    
    I didn't mean to ramble on here, it's just SO good to reflect on the
    positive rather than he negative.  
    
    Thanks Bubba, this note in itself is love.
    
    Hope you find what you're looking for!
    
    Estelle
    
       

    actually, I think mine was stolen...