Conference quark::mennotes-v1

>    I am completely unable to pick up the "signals" from a woman that she
>    finds me attractive

 Me too. I sometimes wonder if this isn't a relic of my all-boys high school
education followed by engineering school education...

>  I like to know that any attraction I feel is mutual
>    before I plunge in and make any advance. I prefer to stay friends with 
>    a woman than risk losing that friendship with an unwanted advance.

 Having too few female friends to begin with, one is often reluctant to risk
losing one by giving the impression that one is "only after one thing." I
know I am. (Well, it's a moot point now.:-) So what ends up happening is that
by the time you figure out she's attracted to you as more than a friend, she's 
already gone on to other things and your mutual attraction window has vanished.

>    It also doesn't help that I am also very shy with women I find 
>    attractive.

 Ditto.

>It also takes an enormous amount of "summoning of courage" before I can ask 
>a woman out.

 The fear of rejection can be crippling, can it not? 

>    And apparently, xyz has been giving off "obvious" signals that others 
>    have spotted and that I haven't.

 I can spot signals between other people. I can't when they are directed at me.
Possibly because I don't expect they are forthcoming; even (or especially?)
when I am already attracted.

 The Doctah

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that I wrote the base note.  I always 
really thought that I was totally repugnant to women and that God, in His 
infinite mercy, gave me a great wife because He felt sorry for me.  ;')

My friends used to laugh at me when I'd go to pieces around an attractive 
woman.  Not because they didn't too, but because I've taught unarmed control 
and restraint to police officers and prison guards and can keep my cool 
under 'hot' situations.  Let me get near a woman in a social setting and I 
have the poise of a Kimodo Dragon.


Go figure...








				Ron

    The problem as I see it (note .0 describes me also)
    
    1.  You are a man and therefore less tuned in.
    
    2.  You consider yourself average looking (i.e hunk-not)
    
    3.  You are not a 'woman chaser'
    
    4.  You are somewhat shy
    
    5.  You are and engineer (focusing on one problem is part of the trade)
    
    
    Maybe not in that order, but that makes a pretty good list
    
    Steve

    	I'm 41, overweight, married with three kids and I'm always shocked
    when my wife says, "Ms. flouwncy was all over you today at the wedding!"
    or she'll say, "Did you enjoy being massaged by zyx today?".
    
        I don't think men always pick up on female signals simply because
    they try so hard not to be obviously interested. My wife says that men
    have a huge neon sign on their foreheads that flash "I WANT TO JUMP
    YOU!!!" when they (men) are rutting. Women recognize it immediately and
    react to it.
    
    	Women, on the other hand, are a bit more subtle and tend to smile a
    lot, laugh at a stupid joke, touch an arm, drop their head onto an arm
    or onto the chest as a show of interest. 
    
    	If you become so afraid of rejection that you fail to pursue, women
    can become extremely cold in a very short time. Failure to pick up a
    signal is rejection to them, don't forget. A friend of mine once said
    that a woman will not sit down, spread her legs, and point! She said
    that a man has to pay close attention and react. 
    
    	If you tend to pick up signals that other men are getting, you must
    be tuning out the ones coming your way. They aren't any different for
    you than anyone else. 
    
    Ken 
    	

    	Hmmm... I don't think it's very hard to notice when someone is
    	attracted to you. But then, I am also having a hard time trying to
    	think of exactly what it is that lets you know as if I was making a
    	parts list of conditions. I don't think it works that way. You just 
    	know. It's a feeling you get. It's not an engineering equation of
    	conditions [if (physically_closer_than_friends) && (says_hi) && 
    	(laughs) && (flirts) && (etc) then attraction=yes :-)]

    	I dunno... perhaps other men (or women) could describe it, I'm
    	having a hard time.  I do know however that when I was very "turned
    	in (to myself)" and didn't do zilch for social/people interaction
    	(ie, if I ever made eye contact with a person, it was uncomfortable
    	and a big deal, never mind reading someone's body language and
    	moods), I had a very hard time knowing when female friends were 
    	interested. One ended up having to hit me in the head with a ski
   	pole after falling on top of me to "get it thru my thick head" after
    	several months of increasing intimacy and truck loads of hint
    	dropping and hours of flirting. I just never noticed. Needed to be 
    	told point blank, and even then I still had to be convinced. Ugh! 
    	I wasn't a very social or sexual person back then [does saying I 
    	was an engineering student already cover this? :-)]. I can't imagine 
    	the same happening now. I can pick up on it instantly, but it's just 
    	a feeling you get after a while of being with them. Not that it
    	happens very much anymore. Ain't that the way it goes... :-)

    	I think it also helped when I started relying on my feelings more
    	(instead of convincing myself that only women had them) and
    	stopped _only_ going on purely scientific evidence and data as most
    	American men are raised. The world opened up a lot after that, even 
    	though it was something that was hard for me as a U.S. male to do 
    	at the time. I had years of cathcing up to do (compared to many women).

    	-Erik

    Unfortunately women *have* to be more subtle.  Look how freaked out
    many of the men replying in this string say they are - and that's in
    response to a woman whom they believe has done *nothing* flirtatious!
    
    It's difficult to learn the fine art of 'letting a man chase you until 
    you catch him' but alas, that's often what you have to do.  And here's
    a generalization but I'll admit it's gleaned directly from my personal
    life.  The experience and/or the relationship that results is *always* 
    better if he has pursued you rather than the other way around.  Perhaps 
    because of that "fear" and "freaked outedness" discussed.  Then again,
    that could be just the men of my generation.  Frankly, guys, I think
    it's your media that gets you all freaked out around attractive women.
    You've elevated female beauty into the stratosphere and imbued it with
    all kinds of divine and superhuman qualities.  Lord, I think *I'd*
    quiver in front of a god.  Fortunately, I know none and can't think of
    any.  (Well, ok, Steven Segal might give me brief pause...)  ;^>
    
    Doesn't it anger you?  It keeps you from being able to pursue what you 
    want.  It keeps you dreaming over magazines and movies and losing
    wonderful opportunities in real life.  I would find that unacceptable.
    
    Sandy   

    I get to be the first to quarrel with a generalization? This is better
    than Ad's .x00s!
    
    My experience goes the other way from Sandy's. My guess is it has more
    to do with different personalities/attractions than with different
    generations.
    
    But I don't have any trouble telling when someone is attracted to me.
    They lean very close, close their eyes, and open their lips without
    saying anything. Then I pause to make sure that they aren't just
    planning to eat a corn chip or something.
    
    Ray

I think the signs can be hard to recognize because they are ambiguous,
inconsistent, and dangerous to misconstrue. 

Ambiguous: Some woman laughs at my jokes, or regularly compliments my
appearence. This could mean very little, given that I'm hilarious and hunky.
Or, she could be thrilling to my every glance, who can tell? A _clear_ sign
would be "Geez, let's check out our sexual-romantic compatibility on Friday at
20:00!" 

Inconsistent: Women play games, e.g. 645.7:

    ...the fine art of 'letting a man chase you until you catch him'.

So today she's breathing heavy, tomorrow she's primly distant, the day after
she's talking about how _horny_ she was last night, and the next day it's
quiet musings about the advantages of the nunnery life-style. She blows hot and
cold, dangling her bait and jerking it this way and that, waxing and waning,
turning on and off, and generally mixing her metaphors. Of course it's
confusing. 

Dangerous: There's the problem of her taking great offense when you dare to get
on the topic. This is especially true since the feminist revolution managed to
generally sell the characterization of men as one step removed from the common
slime mold. Part of the game is to make you unbelievably grateful that she
elects to trust you enough to allow you to spend money on her... which she sets
up through preliminary attacks on your character: 

    Me:  Say, how about you and I have a drink after work someday?

    Her: Jesu Cristo, act the least bit friendly to a guy, and the next thing
         you know, he's trying to get you drunk so he can have his way with
         you. Have you ever heard of FRIENDS! You've probably been arrested
         for suspected rape, haven't you. Never talk to me again, or I'll get
         you fired.

And why does she play all these games with hints and glances and accidental 
touches and so on?

        BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE COURAGE TO PUT HERSELF OUT THERE.

It takes guts to say something reasonably direct and unmanipulative, like "Say, 
how about you and I have a drink after work someday?" If he says NO then she'd 
be crushed. You and I have been rejected dozens and dozens of times, because
we're men and we can take it. Even with our fragile male egos (I pack mine in 
those plastic peanuts... works like a charm).

    At one I thought that I could tell when a woman was interested in me,
    but after a number of times in which I mistaked normal friendliness for
    actual interest, I decided to assume that in all such cases the woman
    was just being friendly.  Of course, this means that I now miss the
    signals until it's almost too late to act upon them.  (And that makes
    it too late before something happens, as life's been rather busy
    lately.)
    
    I wish women would take this equality all the way and take an equal
    amount of responsibility for initiating relationships as men have to
    take.  It's ok for a woman to ask a man out - most men won't think
    you're being too forward, and will be flattered.
    
    Rich

    Looks like you've been plagued with an overabundance of 
    Brigit-types (note 646) who were born 50 years too late, Rich.
    Unfortunately, feminism has gotten a rather nasty reputation in
    some circles, especially from people who don't know anything
    about it.  If they did, they'd know that feminism is about
    *choices*...not *having* to be a galley slave, but being able
    to be a captain or the admiral of the fleet *or* a galley slave
    if she *chooses* to.
    
    I used to think that age had something to do with it, but now I'm
    leaning more to simple assertiveness and self-confidence level
    which determines if women will sit passively waiting to be asked
    out, or if they'll take the initiative.  And of course, how much
    they buy into the sexist societal stereotypes has a lot to do with
    it too.

    Just last week I was talking with a woman (mid-twenties) who was
    saying she liked this guy and had been dropping all sorts of hints;
    he seemed to like her, but hadn't asked her out yet.  I asked her
    why she didn't ask *him* out, and she replied:  "I can't do that...
    What if he says no?"  [Duh, like guys don't go through that??]  I
    often wonder how two shy people ever get together...*Somebody* has
    to make the first move!

	deb

    
> It's ok for a woman to ask a man out - most men won't think
>    you're being too forward, and will be flattered.
 
    Is this *really* true?
    
    If so, it could simplify my life considerably!
    
    I'd like to ask some men out, but I don't. The reason I don't act
    isn't "ego fragility" or whatever but rather my (perhaps mistaken?)
    idea of consideration.
    
    I've tended to assume that the *majority* of men are not entirely 
    comfortable with being asked out even if I'm comfortable asking them, 
    so out of "consideration" I've tended to resort to the "subtle signaling" 
    with which they seem to be more comfortable and familiar (even if it 
    doesn't often work!)
    (This majority discomfort assumption is based on feedback I've gleaned,
     reading, surveys etc etc)
    
    So.....is it true that *most* men would be comfortable being invited
    out by a woman?
    Would you feel awkward having to turn down an invitation from a woman
    you weren't really attracted to?
    How would you handle that?
    
    'gail
    
    
             

    Many (too many) years ago I had a friend (female) whom I could talk to
    and share experiences. We were part of the same crowd of about 20-25
    people. As things turned out, I had a massive fight with my girl friend
    just before the HS Prom. The Prom was out. Another friend (female)
    noted that this 1st friend was not going to the Prom. I modified my
    plans to take her. She was thrilled and we had a good time. After that
    she thought I was hers and our relationship was changed forever. I
    tried to make subtle hint that I wanted to have our old relationship,
    but she either ignored them or didn't want to see them. I didn't want
    to hurt her. She even went so far as to take my statement "some day
    someone will come along and marry you" as a marriage proposal. I said
    this in response to her finally coming to the realization that I was
    not interested in her in a romantic way. She was somewhat saddened and
    upset about that realization. But to this day, she still thinks that I
    proposed to her.
    
    BTW: The girl that I was supposed to take to the Prom had 'picked me
    up'. She made no secrets about it to her girl friends. I was the pick
    of that particular earlier party, unbeknownst to me.
    
    
    Steve

>      <<< Note 645.12 by YUPPY::DAVIESA "Filling up, spilling over..." >>>
>    So.....is it true that *most* men would be comfortable being invited
>    out by a woman?
>    Would you feel awkward having to turn down an invitation from a woman
>    you weren't really attracted to?
>    How would you handle that?
    
    Given the evidence of this conference, I may not count as "most men".
    But, including all the caveats that apply when women accept
    invitations, I don't see any problem. These include the possibility of
    accepting invitations from women one is not sexually attracted to;
    there are such things as friendly get-togethers, after all, and whether
    they lead to contact sport is kind of a mutual decision which takes
    place further down the line than the social event itself. (Well,
    depending on the social event. I am in California now, after all.)
    
    A woman who assumes that an accepted invitation implies a Rrrelationship
    would obviously be heading for some of the same problems as a man who
    does (though I doubt that she would get as pushy about it).
    
    Ray

I know that I, for one, would be flattered and pleased if a woman asked me 
out.   

A statement was made earlier that men elevate a woman's beauty to god-hood 
(or some words to that effect).  I'm not sure this is true in all cases.  
When I try to scrutinize my behaviour in retrospect, I find myself playing 
the "she couldn't possibly be attracted to me" tape.  I still don't know if 
this is because I've promoted her to god-hood or because I have low self-
esteem or both.   It's more or less a moot point for me since I'm happily 
married, but it still has to do with what's going on inside my head.


Ron

 Hoyt's point regarding mixed signals really strikes home with me. There've
been times when I thought, "Aha! She's interested." And 5 minutes later, I'm
thinking, "No way!" And this oscillation continues until I finally decide,
"I don't _care_ whether she's interested or not- I can't take the 
schizophrenia!"

 re: Abigail

>    I'd like to ask some men out, but I don't.

 Don't refrain from asking guys out if it's something you want to do. Most
of the time, they are just as nervous as you. I would expect that most guys
would be flattered if you were to ask them out. :-)

>    Would you feel awkward having to turn down an invitation from a woman
>    you weren't really attracted to?

 Yup.

>    How would you handle that?

 I'd try to let her down easy while being honest, depending on the situation.
It might be that we could come to an understanding and, for instance, go on
an outing or something with the understanding that the relationship was going 
to remain platonic.

 I think that having to turn someone down nicely is something that many 
guys do not yet have a good handle on yet, as women asking men out is a 
fairly new phenomenon.

 Like Rich, I became somewhat gun shy after having misinterpreted friendliness
as possible romantic interest and proceeded to wait until struck over the
head with a large metal object before acting on any perceived mutual 
attraction. 

 The Doctah

    	I asked a couple of women if they would ask a man out for a
    date...they all said..."definitely not"! Why? Though it was not stated
    outright, I got the impression that if they asked a guy out, it was
    like giving permission to have their bones jumped. They said that it
    did not feel comfortable and that it sent the "wrong message" to men.
    
    	We also discussed the "hints" thing. They were laughing that most
    men don't pick up subtle hints, that we have to be literally whacked
    before we pick up on anything. I asked how it could be that so many of
    us miss these signals, when they (women) all seem to notice. They
    claimed that all women "know" the signals and are very "tuned in" to
    other female action around them. 
    
    	Maybe we (men) just don't care anymore.....maybe the game isn't
    worth the effort?
    
    Ken

    During my dating years (and years and years), I liked to pass the ball
    by handing out my business card and saying "Give me a call if you'd
    like to go out on a date sometime." It was low-risk for both of us: I
    wasn't being oppressive, and she didn't have to blurt out that she'd
    sooner die. Over the years, I probably did that with about two hundred
    women, and probably five or six called. Personally, I think it's a good
    basis for selection. If she has what it takes to pick up the phone,
    then she's probably pretty cool. If I was doing it nowadays, I think I
    would take out personal ads. You have to cast a wide net, however,
    since the great majority of women are chicken/proper/sex-typecast.

               <<< Note 645.17 by SALEM::KUPTON "Pasta Masta" >>>


>    	Maybe we (men) just don't care anymore.....maybe the game isn't
>    worth the effort?
    
Maybe the "rules" have never been clearly defined.  If they were, then 
neither side would have an excuse to be cagey.

Ron

I was divorced several years ago.  Asking women out was not something that
was hard for me and I thought that I picked up the 'hints' most of the
time.  But let's face it guys the myth that we are all ruled by our groins
is still alive.  Women think that if we miss their signals we are stupid.
And they're stuck becuase they think that if they do anything overt like
"Would you like to have lunch with me?" we'll immediately start taking our
clothes off.

I don't see the situation changing in the near future.  It's too bad.  The
only answer I know of is to get to know some woman very very very well as a
friend first.  After a while you can ask her to divulge her 'hidden'
signals.  If she doesn't get too frustrated waiting for you to make a move
it will work.  The only other solution is for women to be more overt with
their feelings and for the most part this will only happen when they are
pissed at you.  What I have found is that when you make a woman mad she'll
let you know, if you give her a major case of the hots she'll tell her
friends or her diary.

patrick

>"Would you like to have lunch with me?" we'll immediately start taking our
>clothes off.
    
    	I nominate this for the best unexpected laugh I've had all week! Took me
    	by total surprise, the image was just too funny!! :-) :-)
    

>> It's ok for a woman to ask a man out - most men won't think
>>    you're being too forward, and will be flattered.
>
>    Is this *really* true?

   I'd say "yes", it's true. For me, nearly all of my dating has been the
result of women asking me out or at least setting up conditions which would
naturally lead me to ask her out.

>    So.....is it true that *most* men would be comfortable being invited
>    out by a woman?

   I don't know about most men. Speaking strictly for myself, This has been
the norm for me and have never had a problem with it.

>    Would you feel awkward having to turn down an invitation from a woman
>    you weren't really attracted to?

   It's a little awkward but I don't just say "No". I express my feelings about
the situation. 

>    How would you handle that?

   The few times I've done it I'll say something like "I really appreciate
your asking me out/over/whatever but I feel uncomfortable about it at this
time because (state the reason(s))". It might be that I'm seeing someone
else exclusively at the time, have other plans (in which case I may suggest
a time when I'm free) or whatever. If I'm not seeing anyone exclusively and
was asked out, I wouldn't turn a woman down for a first date unless I sensed
a STRONG personality clash *and* was NOT attracted to her at all physically.
The hardest turn down I did was to a woman who's personality I really like
and who is *extremely* attractive (I've seen men drool over her). I was not
dating anyone at the time but I turned her down because I knew enough about her
to know that a romantic relationship (at least a long term one) just wouldn't
work with her. That was a little over two years ago. Today we are good friends.
We give bear hugs to each other when we see each other which is the only
physical contact we have ever had. We occasionally have long, very personal and
open conversations about anything. We dated other people but never each other.
My friendship/relationship with her (and a few other women) mean a lot to me.
I think to get physically involved with any of these women runs the risk of
destroying my friendship with them .... so I won't. My experience is Yes, by
all means, men and women can be 'just friends'. One of the women I am close to
is married and as a result, I've become good friends with her husband and have
had some great conversations with him as well. Romantic relationships I've had
have generally felt at least a little strain because of these 'relationships'
but this fades when it becomes obvious that they pose no threat.

Rick

I, as a resident female version of a curmudgeon, wish to offer some advice to
simplify your life (whether you be female/male, het/homo/bisexual):

It has been my observation that noone has ever died from being turned down
when they are approaching someone who appeals to them.  A 'No thank you' is
generally exactly that....a gentle rejection of the proposed shared activity.
A rejection of the planned activity is, indeed, a rejection of your offer to
assume a role in this person's life....it DOES NOT mean you are a sub-standard
member of the species.  It simply means that this one person doesn't want you 
to play in the sandbox with him/her.  Others WILL want your companionship.

It is wise to assume that anyone accepting an offer from you is looking for
friendship, that much maligned, but very precious, relationship that
includes companionship, but does not include sexual congress.  If, once you
are friends, sexual attraction is stong for either/both of you, then two 
friends can discuss this most frightening of subjects more honestly, and with 
less danger of damage to anyone's ego, than two strangers have any hope of
achieving.  And, once it is decided what can/cannot happen between two
friends in the sexual arena, there is still a friendship to nurture you on
gray and lonely days.

It is wise, for the same reasons, to assume that anyone who asks you to
spend time with them is also looking for friendship.  In the event that
other objectives come to light, respect the honor that the offer bestows
upon you even if you do not desire the same objective, and treat the bearer
of this honor with the respect he/she deserves.

Never, never, have sex with anyone who is not FIRST, your friend.  BE
RUTHLESS with yourself on this.  If you cannot forsee yourself seeking this
person out as a companion when sex is not available, then the sex will only
damage all hope of any lasting relationship...and someone will be terribly
damaged, if only that he/she is inured from feelings and responses necessary
to maintain a loving relationship in the future.  This is a risk that is
little recognized, but so often the result of "using" one another as we
do these days.

So, take a chance, keep your sense of humor....and enjoy the company of
friends.  Love will show up when you are ready for it.

    RE .24 
    
    
    Very good advice

	I'm generally a readonly noter so excuse the length.

	I felt also like I could of written the initial note. So much so
	that I expect to find a circumstance similar to my own detailed 
	further down. I was sexually abused as an young boy by a teenage
	girl who looked after me and my brothers while my parent's were
	working. I was probably 7 to 9 years old.  There was regular
	sexual contact for approx 2 years. When my parents found out, I
	of course denied everything and they never spoke of it again. 
	This was in the late 60's before anyone talked about such stuff.
	I was also exposed to a large and ever changing collection of
	pornography. Contrary to popular opinion, there is information in
	these magazines. I learned that I had been sexually abused, that I
	was not at fault and was the victim, that 'yes' means yes and 'no'
	always means 'no', that the phrase 'consenting adults' meant 
	'consenting' and 'adults'. I don't want to support pornography
	but I was a nine year old boy whose self-esteem was tied to an
	active sexual relationship and I replaced it with pornography. I'm
	thankful (and 'thankful' doesn't do justice to how I feel and that my
	hands shake typing ) that I did not sexually abuse a little girl to 
	replace that relationship. I was so at risk as a child that at times 
	I still am frightened. 

	To loop back to the basenote, I came away from adolescence with a
	set of behaviors that excludes an awareness of flirtation. I don't
	flirt and I don't even notice it directed towards me and when I 
	finally do get into a relationship I don't make any sexual advances 
	until I know that my partner is open to them. A woman friend that was
	interested in dating at one point, later told me that she felt that
	I had to be gay because in all our conversations I looked her directly
	in the eyes and never checked her body out. What we found ironic was
	that I was really trying to get to know her but it wasn't coming 
	across to her because I was not acknowledging my physical attraction to
	her. This is problematic because even in relationships that have 
	advanced to the stages where I've spoken of my life and my ongoing 
	therapy ;this lack of sexual aggressiveness is seen as a 'negative' 
	quality and a good reason to 'just stay friends'.I've been told that 
	my behavior is very old-fashioned; I move slowly, courting and 
	checking the waters. I can imagine picking up a lover and tossing her 
	into bed unexpectedly in a wave of passion, but the execution of it 
	at this point is inconceivable. The risk feels too great. I need to
	be aware that there is an open-ness to sexual spontanaity before I 
	can be spontaneous. If I feel like I'm getting signals, I'll find a
	reason to send some roses. That'll either bring these so called 
	'signals' right out in the open or it'll bring a polite 'thank you'.
	If I'm not getting signals, I sort of feel the ball's
	in my court and I tend to fall back on sending some flowers and
	a short note. For a quiet (shy?) person, that's pretty safe though
 	I do agonize over those 'short note's.

	I feel fortunate to have entered therapy several years ago when
	my marriage dissolved. There were many issues but an inability to
	be spontaneous and intimate were right up there in the top ten.
	It's somehow comforting to know that men who were not sexually
	abused deal with strikingly similar feelings. It removes in some 
	ways a sense of struggling alone. I've come to,on my own, follow 
	advice given in .24 ; go for friendship first; share yourself; 
	keep a sense of humor; don't beat up on yourself; recognize that 
	others have their own needs and limitations; grieve for losses as 
	necessary; and try to have some fun. This is life as we	know it.

	Ray Hayes
    

                      <<< Note 645.26 by PENUTS::RHAYES >>>
                     -< <Similar feelings, dif'rnt case> >-

Ray,

	I admire you for sharing that here.  I had a similar childhood but 
my abuse was at the hands of a teenage male.

	I found it interesting that when you always looked your female 
friend in the eye, she thought you must be gay 'cause you weren't checking 
her out.  I wonder if you had checked her out if she'd have pegged you as 
just another horny SOB with no self control.  And we wonder why it's 
difficult to read the signals correctly.  Of course it's difficult; the 
rules are keep changing to to keep us confused and on the defensive.  


			Regards,

			  Ron

  Of course, sometimes you don't have to worry about 'signals'... sometimes 
  you just get blown away...

I thought that I ought to post this here as well.
    
    
             <<< IKE22::$3$DIA5:[NOTESFILES]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;1 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
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Note 1038.11             Recognising a womans attraction                11 of 11
JUMBLY::BATTERBEEJ "Kinda lingers....."              19 lines   8-OCT-1991 10:55
                -< I can see clearly now the rain has gone... >-
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    Thanks for everyones replies so far. Many contain good advice and it
    also helps to know I'm not alone in my plight.
    
    I think you may be interested to know that a few weeks ago, I spotted
    some signals, lots of eye contact, her looking away when I looked at
    her etc.  I then summoned up the courage to go up to her and take her
    to one side of the bar (she was with a group of people) and start a
    conversation. I arranged to meet her again. I've seen quite a lot of
    her recently and we seem to be getting on very well. I think this could
    be the start of a serious thing but it's a bit early to say for sure.
    Her name BTW is Catherine.  It also seems ironic that since I've been
    seeing Catherine I've noticed several signals. I think I must be a
    lot more aware than I was before. I have even had a really nice girl
    indirectly (ie through a friend) ask me out.  I declined the request as
    nicely as I could saying words to the effect of thanks very much but 
    I'm already spoken for. I don't know, one extreme to the other :-) 
    
                                 
    Jerome.
    

Re: .29

The "feast or famine" phenomenon is well known.  It seems that if one person
finds you desireable, that makes you more desireable to others.

			Steve

    	re:Steve...
    
    After I was married, women seemed to come out of the woodwork flirting,
    making "suggestions"....offering little "things".  It's a simple
    explanation.......you're a safe player...
    
    Ken

Either that, or its a challenge to see "who's the better woman".  When I was
in college, women almost uniformly ignored me until I had a girlfriend, then
I'd have some openly flirting with me in front of her. 

Do men do these sorts of things?

			Steve

    I think it's that men often change when moving into a relationship --
    they get more confident, more relaxed, less likely to get weird
    (nervous / pushy) around women. All attractive traits.
    
    Ray

    It's true, Ray.  Some men do seem to be more relaxed and less pushy when
    they are already involved in a relationship.  I wonder if it's because
    they don't spend as much time fearing rejection (because they've
    already been accepted)?
    
    -Janice

    RE: .32  - Steve,
    
    >Do men do these sorts of things?
    
    Yes, and I have a theory on one possible reason why.  It is safer
    to flirt with someone who appears taken - that way you don't have
    to take the rejection personally.
    
    :-) - yeah, that's slightly tounge-in-cheek but there's some truth
    to it in my experience.
    
    /Greg

I've definitely experienced the "feast or famine" phenomenon, 
especially when married.  My take on that is that it was mostly
a safe way for a woman to practice flirting ('cause if you respond 
seriously, she can say "Oh, but you're married" ).  In a few cases,
I was actually persued by a woman who was after an affair with a 
married man because I was "safe, and wouldn't put restraints on her".
I have also noticed that with a few exceptions, women will respect
another womans territory (but the outlaws are more fun anyway ;-).

When I was much younger, I usually failed to receive signals sent 
or, if I received them, I dithered until the "magic moment" had passed.
Now, I try to be a little more proactive when I perceive such signals.
Even better, I think I have learned something about what the signals
are.  It is ever so much easier to find women who want to spend time
with me now than I ever thought might exist when I was younger.  Now
I just have to learn how to pick the right woman, set the right 
expectations for the relationship, maintain my personal reality and space,
and generally develop a good, long term relationship.

But, hey, I'm only 41, I've got lots of time to learn all these things.
One thing I am very unsure of now, though, is whether I will ever
get married a third time.  Then again, maybe I haven't learned that 
lesson well enough either  ;-)

80)
jimc