Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    >Do you (truthfully) notice similar feelings when you're faced with
    >women in what is classically a "man's job"?  
    
    	No (I was going to couch it by saying "In general," but
    	the answer is a simple "no."
    
    
    
>Does it mean you're not really open-minded ... resistant to change ... or
>just having a hard time accepting change ... or you won't accept change in
>some occupations?

    
    	Sounds like you're having a hard time accepting it, but you're
    	at least open to acceptance.  Me -- it's not a problem.
    

    
    
    When it comes to "intimate" examinations by a doctor, I must admit I
    prefer that the doctor me a man.
    
    Other than that, "it don't make no never mind" (to quote my late
    grandfather)

My dentist is a woman, and that bothers me not one whit.  I've also been
treated by a doctor who was a woman, and I didn't care.  But given some
of the reactions here, one can easily see why many women prefer female
gynecologists.

				Steve

Well, I mentioned this over in WOMANNOTES with respect to the "glass ceiling",
and I'll mention it here:  in a lot of professions, there seems to be a
collective archetype that people assume as the default for that profession.
Very few of our archetypes allow for either gender to assume the role... and
in those cases that DO, frequently there are two names for the occupation
(e.g. actor/actress).

Try this exercise:  list a dozen or so occupations, and as you list each
one down think about the FIRST image that pops into your mind of a 
practitioner of that occupation.  Try, f'rinstance:

	Nurse
	Police Officer
	Schoolteacher
	Professor
	Chef
	Pilot
	... etc.

When presented with a real-world example that CONFLICTS with our archetype,
our reactions are varied.  Myself, I'll sometimes have a momentary mental
"hiccup" as I realize that yet another archetype has been shattered, and
I take all of about five seconds to assimilate the new example, and from then
on I have no problem.

Others are made uncomfortable by this situation... and it's not NECESSARILY
a male/female thing either!  If your airline captain looked like your 
typical male software hacker (untrimmed beard, hair tied back in a ponytail,
wrinkled uniform...) that would make such people equally uncomfortable 8-)

Still others just can't accept it at all... they think it's a crime against
nature for women to fly planes or for men to be nurses.  Such people have
very fragile, inflexible world-views and the thought of having to assimilate
a NEW concept frightens them... because if they DO then they may have to change
their WHOLE world-view, and that's VERY hard work!

--jim

  My cost center manager is a woman and that doesn't bother me.

  My dentist is a woman and that doesn't bother me. In fact, I think she is
     *BY FAR* the best dentist I've ever had!! So much so that if I am faced
     with having to find another dentist, I'd probably would prefer a woman
     over a man. She is *that* good.

  The person that I go to to have my hair cut is a woman. No problem there.
 
  I fly the DEC charter to from Bedford to Burlington VT on a regular basis
     and there is a woman (goes by the initials "M.K.") that flies that route
     from time to time. I swear she flies better than almost any of the men!
     (Not to 'knock' the male pilots.... I think they do an excellent job.)
     The flights and most of the landings are *noticeably* smoother when
     she is flying as pilot. If I've been up late the night before and
     want to catch a few Z's on the plane, I feel most at ease about taking
     a catnap when she is at the controls.

 Rick     

    RE: .0, Bubba, I really didn't think it mattered who held the Toro
    mower over your head! :-)
    
    Eric

	I have had both women and men doctors, and there hasn't been a problem.
I don't mind a woman in any profession. If they're qualified to do the job,
then so be it, let them do it. Hey Bubba! How do you feel about women in the
military, in combat positions?


Glen

    Actually, I PREFER female hair stylists...   They give MUCH better
    shampoos! :-)
    
    And, no, I don't (honestly) have a problem with gender in any roles.
    And re: a few back, I really didn't have a gender-specific picture in
    mind for many of those - chef, for example, I thought of my cousin, who
    was male, and my ex...
    
    Although I do admit that I'd prefer a woman for "intimate physical
    doctoring", but that's all I can think of that bothers me...
    
    ML
    

    It takes me back for a minute, but I get over it.
    
    I prefer male cops because I can get out of tickets easier!  ;^)
    
    
                                     L.J.

    I saw a female bike mechanic (at Gus' in North Hampton, NH) and made
    a few value judgements as to her capabilities, but quickly determined
    that she wsas ok.  I was wondering if I made those judgements because
    she was female.  Probably.  In Manchester, I made similar judgements of
    a male bike mechanic but only after he made statements that indicated
    to me that he was an idiot.
    
    Outside of that, I'd feel funny about it if I saw a female sumo wrestler.
    
    ed

.11> Hey Bubba! How do you feel about women in the military, in combat
.11> positions?

OK, this may/may_not take a tangent at this point, but, since the military
is definitively a occupation ... I'll go for it.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't want to see women in combat -
bottom line is I don't want to see ANYONE in combat, but, it's a fact
of life that there will probably always be 'war'.  Perhaps a lot has
to do with the fact that I have two daughters, and, I'm sure that those
who have sons would feel no different.

I've been raised in an environment that holds women on a different plane
as opposed to the politically correct plane of today.  I tend to react
differently when I see a female in 'trouble' which threatens bodily harm.

I think that it will (perhaps) take a few generations before that perception
changes ... if ever.  In combat you really don't have a great deal of
time to let things like this come into play ... I would hate to think
that I, or the Marine beside me, would react any differently because a
female was involved ... you simply don't have a great deal of time to
take things like that into account ... as I've said before, combat is
not a "valuing differences" proving ground - it's life or death.  Death
is very final.

I've had to kill women before ... when she's got a grenade in each hand
and coming at you ... you pull the trigger ... you fill 'em just as
full of 7.62mm rounds as you would any other person ... BUT ... I freely
admit that there was that fraction of a second hesitation in me and it
scared the hell out of me.  I could have bought the farm myself and/or
the guys next to me .. I'll never forget that.  I was lucky.

We are all products of our environment and upbringing .. we've got a
long way to go before some things change.

I'm sorry, but, that's the way that I feel about women in combat.

Bubba

    My doctor is a woman.  Nobody can make me cough like her. 
    
    I used to get the "twinge" when encountering females in traditionally
    male roles until I had a woman doctor reset a dislocated shoulder. I
    still get a "twinge" when I encounter a male in a traditionally female
    role for some reason.  The secretary for the head of engineering
    of my previous employer was a man as was one of the company the nurses.
    That seemed further out of ordinary than seeing female road crew.
    
    Kris

    re:women in combat.
    
       I've been in the Marines.  I wouldn't want women in combat for
    a few reasons.
    
       First and foremost...I don't want to die. I have some feminist
    ideals, but I consider it insanity to lobby for my right to die
    just like a man.  If women were allowed in combat I would have still
    joined and at a time of war.  And I would have risked death for what
    my country was fighting for.  But if they say I don't have to get shot
    at I don't really care what their reasoning is.
    
       Second...most men in this day and age still have the tendency to
    protect females.  Scenario:  Male and female are in a foxhole being
    scouts.  Male is keeping his eye on his half of the perimeter and so
    is female.  But male has also been raised to protect said female and
    is surreptiously keeping an eye on her.  Hence his full attention is
    not on his job.  During such a lapse they get ambushed and both end
    up dead.  
       Maybe all female units is an answer to this.
    
       Third and last...I believe most women are still raised to be
    nurturers.  I don't think most women (even those I met in the Corps)
    could put a bullet in someones brain.  They'd hesitate...and as
    Bubba  pointed out that can be fatal.
    
    
    
    
                                        L.J.

    Can't say that I've been taken aback by people in jobs not
    traditionally associated with their gender.  At least not in a long
    time.  My Dr. is female and one of the best I've ever been to.  My
    lawyers have all been female, but that is as much self defense as
    anything (all my legal dealings have been support & custody issues and
    I want to be sure that my ex doesn't pull the "these big mean  men are
    picking on poor little ole me" routine and get away with it).  On the
    other hand, they have also been very effective.
    
    I've worked for women and men, some of each were good and bad bosses. 
    I've had men and women work for me, some were good and some weren't.  I
    didn't hesitate one way or the other when it came to praise or
    corrective action (at least I don't think so).  
    
    Bottom line - The right man for the job is just as often a woman.
    
    ;^>
    jimc

I've encountered female pilots and not had a problem.  As with male pilots
I'd prefer they were grey haired which lulls me into a feeling that they've
been at it for a while and I somehow feel safer.  I wouldn't have a problem
with a female doctor, I don't think.


I encountered a woman mechanic at a shop, and though out of the way, I took 
my car back to her a couple of times.  Not being too mechanically inclined I
tend to feel intimidated my some male mechanics who tend to take my deficiencies
as a failure in a test of manhood.  This woman explained things to me straight,
I understood what she was talking about and I wish I knew where she worked now
because I'd again go out of my way to take my car to her.  She also did a 
fine job.


Jimi

    Herb,
    
    Eleborate. Please.

On the topic of women in combat, see note 500.

			Steve

    If we're sending "babies" off to get killed in war and you want it
    stopped what age would you say a person should be able to kill and
    be killed for their country?
    
    And none of this they shouldn't have to die at all...let's try to
    keep within reality, shall we?
    
    
                                       L.J.

    besides what is reality?? A new realestate firm?:)

.33> ...couldn't bring myself to say "yes" when he asked.

    I resemble that remark.  The two professions where I *really* find
    myself taking a "hiccup" are those of nurses and and secretaries - this
    is not a "male's job" ... this is a female's job and it's sort of
    difficult for me to change.

    At the same time, I still tend to prefer female physicians - I think
    that is because I  H A T E D  the United States Navy physicians that
    attended to me while I was in the USMC ... they seemed to "have it in"
    for the Marines and more often than not (from what I saw) treated us
    like dirt ... I can harbor grudges for a long time I guess.

    Bubba

    
    
    I don't understand it and can't justify it, but I also much perfer to
    deal with male sales staff when I'm purchasing clothes -- especially
    "expensive" work clothes.
    
    	

    If a person is right for the job, wants the job and is good at it, I
    couldn't care less if it's a man or woman.
    It's about time we all realise we're living in the 90's and that things
    change.
    
    Charles Mallo

| If a person is right for the job, wants the job and is good at it, I
| couldn't care less if it's a man or woman.
| It's about time we all realise we're living in the 90's and that things
| change.

	Good words to live by Charles. It doesn't really matter who does the
job. But, boys will be boys! ;-)



Glen

    Physically spoken boys will be boys indeed, and girls will be girls.
    And to be honest, I think the world would be pretty boring if there
    were only boys or only girls.
    ;-)
    Charles

	I think pumping gas is a mans job. It makes your hands and
	clothes all gassy smelling.  <yuk>


	kits

 >	I think pumping gas is a mans job. It makes your hands and
 >	clothes all gassy smelling.  <yuk>

    So, Kits, would you also say that it was a woman's job to WASH the
    gassy smelling clothes???  :-)
    
    Dave
    

    I think there are several jobs for which gender is important:
    
    Sperm donor
    
    Wet nurse
    
    The rest are up for grabs
    
    /s/ Jim Williams
    

	::DCARR

		Only if he is her husband. A wife's job is to
		wash her husbands clothes. But if she's just
		dating him...then he should be washing his own.  :-)
		(IMHO of course)
	
		kits

.42> I think there are several jobs for which gender is important:
.42>  Sperm donor
.42   Wet nurse

Not to mention "wife" ....

Not to mention breast feeding a newborn.....

Bubba

>.42> I think there are several jobs for which gender is important:
>.42   Wet nurse
>
>Not to mention breast feeding a newborn.....

    Bubba, that's what a wet nurse *does*

    RE: .45
    
    Duh.  Bubba jus a po' ol dumb dirt farmer and he don no all dem fancy
    words.
    
    Bubba

    re .40, .41
    
    If you go to one of those gas stations with the vapor recovery pumps
    you don't get anywhere near the amount of eau d'unleaded on you.
    
    As for "Man's job", I'll admit to forming a mental picture of a man or
    a woman depending upon job, but it doesn't shock me if my initial idea
    was wrong.
    
    Rich

    I would advocate affirmative action to promote women into the ranks for
    nuclear waste workers, coal miners, street drug vendors, etc., the
    final measure of true equality being lifespan. See another topic for
    discussion of women in the armed forces (not THAT again :).
    
    My favorite example of "cross-gender vocations" was the bar in Ann
    Arbor that was famous for white-trash bar fights until the father of a
    friend of mine bought it. He was a UofMich sociology professor and the
    bar was his lab. Among his strokes of genious was installing a woman as
    the bouncer. The guys who came to fight liked nothing better than a
    tussle with the traditionally-male bouncer. By substituting a woman,
    who was NOT subject to violence by these macho (but sexist :) men, he
    eliminated that ugly element and eventually had Ann Arbor's finest watering
    hole.
                                     

    
    	Taking out the trash and garbage are a MAN's job!!!!
    	Men haul an average of 6,000 pounds of trash a year
    	to the curbside. Why? So we can see where the fruits of
    	our labors go....;_)
    
    
    							Hank
    	
    	ps. Hey Kits....Great to see a note from ya, hope all is well.
    	    you too, cruel spa.

    	A lot of the "gender role" attitude depends on what you are used
    to. A fairly early reply asked what genders we associated with an
    assorted list of jobs, and one of them was teaching.
    
    	I went to all-male schools past the age of 11, and even before then
    the teachers I remember had been male, so obviously I had a male image.
    Then I remembered that my mother has been a teacher for most of her
    life, and my wife is a fully qualified teacher, it was just that I had 
    never seen them in a teaching role. So obviously women teachers are
    possible - it's just that I don't remember being taught by one.
    
    	You can probably get used to anything given time ;-)

    Can't say that woman in any particular role bothers me that much.
    In fact I think I might prefer a woman doctor putting their hands
    on me than a man doing so. :-)
    
    			Alfred

    >> Do you (truthfully) notice similar feelings when you're faced with
    >> women in what is classically a "man's job"?

	Yes.  I feel badly about it, but I do.  Thanks for letting me
	know that I'm not alone.


	Diane

well, I don't have a problem with women in "men's jobs", but I have been
startled when encountering men in a classic "woman's job"...yes, I confess,
my first male nurse did fluster me a little.  And, as far as secret biases
are concerned, I agree with Dave Barry:

	"There should be a rule that all airline pilots must be older
	than anyone on the plane...or at least, older than ME".

how's that for a classic case of ageism?  8^}

    I don't feel this stigma anymore.  Not since:
    
    My brother the R.N. started making more money than I do.
    
    A friend of mine was hired by his wife.
    
    The anesthesiologist came out to get the release signed and she was in
    my high school graduating class.
    
    I got old enough that I don't want anybody older than me in the
    cockpit.

Couldn't we just divide ourselves, without any blame or *we're better than
them* into two simple classes of people...

1) People who have never had any difficulty accepting women in men's rolls
and vice versa,

2) and those of us who still have to make an effort not to have that *twinge*

...it's kinda ironic that those classes would be mixed between the sexes.