Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    First I would go berserk.
    
    Then I would send you to a psychiatrist.
    
    Then I would tell you to get lost.
    
    Then I would probably start drinking heavily wondering how my kid could
    get so screwed up.
    

    You mean I don't have to worry about you coming home with some
    pregnant bimbo on your arm?  Great!
    
    I hope you're having responsible sex and that both you and your
    lover have been HIV tested recently and will continue to do so.
    
    I hope you're happy with the decision.  What size does he wear so I
    know what to buy him for X-mas?
    
    
    
                                     L.J.
    
    p.s. I also believe parents that turn their backs on their children
         for this reason should be shot.  But other than that, I'm not
         a violent person.  ;^)

And, of course, for those of us who aren't REAL MEN, and who don't feel like
murdering our children, there's always the possibility of phoning P-FLAG
(Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays) at (301)439-FLAG.

    
    "...hmmmm...Are you happy?"
    
    If the young adult is a HAPPY young adult with knowledge and street
    smarts to keep him/herself out of the way of PUNCH happy young/old 
    adults then... to each is own... even if he/she was one of my own...
    
    The only homophobia in my bones would be seein' the UNSPEAKABLE with
    my own TWO EYES!! 
    
    8^O  (That would my one TRUE fear...seein' what ain't suppose to be seen.)
    
    Michelle

.4> You mean I don't have to worry about you coming home with some
.4> pregnant bimbo on your arm?  Great!

L.J., I'm assuming that you have boys?  I've got two girls.  I'd
probably say "thank God I don't have to worry about you getting
pregnant by one of those wild boys".

My youngest girl tends to find boyfriends who have a car that is on
it's last leg and no money.  Tell ya' what L.J.  My daughters aren't
bimbo's, they revere the USMC (and their father) .. so .. if your boys
have got good wheels and some spending money .. contact me off line
and let's see if we can get 'em together.

Bubba
    

    
>How would you handle it?

    "I'm glad you told me - I 've read that coming out to your family can
     be very frightening. Do you want to talk further about why you
     chose to tell me now, or what you expected me reaction to be?"
    
>Why would you handle it in that fashion?

    I have no problem with gay people. I believe that my kids (if I
    had any) have a perfect right to a sex life, and a sex life of
    their choice. 
    
>How would you react to their lover (if applicable)?

    Exactly the same way I'd react to meeting a new lover of the
    opposite gender.
    Why should this be any different? Their lover is a person first,
    as is your child - person first, <label> second (if at all).
    
    I cannot understand the violence of reaction of parents against
    their kids over this. Do you think that your hating your child,
    hurting them or their lover, alientating them is somehow going
    to CHANGE them?
    All you do is entrench your own knee-jerk reactions and cut your
    child off from you. Really productive. 
    
    'gail                                 
    

    Good one, 'gail!
    
    I agree that every individual has the right to choose for themselves
    (and I say "choose" because I do think it's a choice, not totally
    determined by nature) how to live their lives and with whom, without
    the interference of parents. I've had enough of that in my own life to
    have learnt.
    
    People _are_ individual.
    
    If I had a child, in that situation, I would support them, whatever
    they decided - whether to "come out" or keep it private, whether to
    follow their perceived orientation, or try to ignore it, and so on. In
    that situation, that individual, whether he is male or female, old or
    young, needs all the support he can get. I expect he will have faced
    some hassle already, before he informs me, so any hassle I give him
    will most likely be crushing.
    
    However, I am a committed Christian. This means that no matter how much
    I accept or support this child's decision/orientation/lifestyle,
    whatever, I cannot agree with it.
    
    I would tell him straight "Look, you know my feelings - that I don't
    believe homosexuality is what God intends for any of us - but I won't
    hold this against you. You're my son, and this doesn't alter that fact.
    I love you and I'll support you."
    
    I would not push the Biblical references or anything (which I don't
    know off hand, by the way - so give me a couple of days to look them up
    before anyone asks, please), but I will offer to put together a list of
    them if ever he wants them. That's as far as it would go.
    
    I would state my beliefs, then state my feelings and support.
    
    By the way, I also believe that every individual has the right to
    choose whichever religion (if any) that he wants. I would not push that
    on my son/daughter - just make my views known, and only go into it if
    asked. I only beleive one religion is the true one (guess which!!), but
    I recognise the fact that other people acknowlege other religions, and,
    frankly, that's their choice.
    
    (I didn't mean to make this a "religious" reply - but for me, that has
    to come into it)
    
    Alice T.

    I'd suggest that he/she do whatever he/she can to be as happy as
    possible, and that a major problem to confront is the issue of
    procreation.

	I'm glad to see people responding so honestly. :-) Even if the
treatment doesn't match others. At least you're being honest. Another question
is:


	Do you feel you have failed if your child is a lesbigay?


	Just to clarify a couple of things, I would have to say in most cases
(as anything is possible) that being gay isn't chosen, just as being
heterosexual isn't. It is just something you feel inside of you. I mean, did
anyone wake up one day and say they were a heterosexual? They just were, right?



Glen

    RE .11
    
    Can you please explain for me the difference you are refering to
    between mutual sexual gratification and homosexuality (I hope I haven't
    misquoted you here - sorry if I have). I'm sure you're right, but I
    don't see the difference.
    
    Alice T.

    Seems to me that some people in here are confusing sexual orientation
    with sexual activity.  The base note asked how we would react if our
    child(ren) told us they were L/B/G--that's their ORIENTATION, not
    necessarily an admission of sexual activity.  I believe very strongly
    that orientation is NOT a choice.  Sexual activity, if any, and gender
    of partners, if any, IS a choice.
    
    I also think honesty is not to be applauded but simply to be expected
    here.  I'm revolted by the violent, homophobic attitudes displayed
    (apparently with some *pride*) in some of the replies here.
    
    To answer the base note: if my daughter tells me she's a lesbian, I'll
    be glad (but not surprised) that she lets me know; I'll also be a bit
    dismayed because I've seen how far society is from acceptance of
    homosexuality (in the broad sense of L/B/G).  And as another reply
    said, Happy=OK.  She's only 6 1/2 now, and though I know it's not
    uncommon to be aware of one's orientation at that age, she's given no
    indication yet.  My very closest friend is a gay male, and she loves
    him and has had lots of talks with me about sexual orientation, so I
    don't expect it to be difficult for her to talk to me when her hormones
    start to percolate!
    
    Leslie
          

    re .18
    
    If you're referring to me, no I'm not "proud of being the orientation"
    that I am.  I didn't determine my orientation; I can't be proud OR
    ASHAMED of being "het".  I just *am*.
    
    L.W. 

Re: .19

There are "blue color" people?  Maybe they should come in from the cold....

Re: .0

If my son told me he was gay (assuming he was old enough to reasonably
know, he's only 7 now), I would tell him that I am glad he trusts me enough
to tell me something which he undoubtedly knows is upsetting to some people,
that I love him and will provide any fatherly support he needs.  I would
make sure he was aware of the different medical risks (higher in some
things, lower in others), and in general, continue to be there for him when
he needs me.  I could certainly imagine other things he might tell me to
which I'd react more negatively, though my love for him would never falter.

				Steve

    My oldest son came to me at Thanksgiving his frosh year and said that
    he'd spent a lot of time wrestling with wondering if he were gay that
    fall. We talked a lot about the things that I'd learned as a member
    of the conference for gays, lesbians and bisexuals. Finally, when the
    'other shoe' didn't drop, I asked him what he had determined/decided.
    He told me that he felt after a lot of thinking that he was definitely
    heterosexual. More of his reasoning I'm not going to go into since
    it is private between him and me.
    
    I have a great deal of pity for the people who would react to their
    child telling them that they were gay/lesbian with outrage, physical
    violence, etc.
    
    Bonnie

| Homosexual activity between early teen boys is very, very common. 
| It is _of course_ homosexual in the sense that it involves sexual
| activity between members of the same sex.
| It is generally felt _not_ to be homosexual in the sense that I
| understand it to be under discussion here. That is, -and i hope i'm not
| making to fine a point here- some form of adult committment of
| intimacy,sharing, (and sex) between two members of the same sex.

	Not to rathole this, but I will say how I feel on this one. One doesn't
ever have to be involved with anyone of the same sex to be homosexual. Just as
no one ever has to be involved with anyone of the opposite sex to be considered
heterosexual. If two teens are masterbating together, there is the chance that
one or both are homosexual. It isn't always, but it does happen more often than
you think.


Glen

I can't imagine not knowing my kid's orientation, but assuming he did tell me
I'd say "Oh? Found anyone special?"

I'd probably indulge in some overprotective parent meddling advice too, but
hey - no one's perfect.

	-- Charles

Assuming As I do, that homosexuality is a dysfunction I would
react the same as any dysfunction. With concern and understanding then
try to solve the problem. Failing that I would treat him/her as having
any other problem and continue to love and support as best I can.
 And yes I would consider myself a failure as a parent to produce a child 
with any major dysfunctional behavior. 

Mick

>Assuming As I do, that homosexuality is a dysfunction [...]
    
    Please understand that not everyone agrees with your assumption. 
    
>And yes I would consider myself a failure as a parent to produce a child 
>with any major dysfunctional behavior. 
    
    Does this mean that if your child becomes an alcoholic, it's
    *your* responsibility?  I believe you overestimate your influence
    on your child.

Re: .23 (George)

Oh - you meant "blue collar"!  Sorry....  I was having visions of the
"Blue Meanies" from the movie "Yellow Submarine"...

Re: others

I also am aghast that any parent would show themselves to be totally
unworthy of their child's trust by reacting violently to such a disclosure.
What I'd have to say to such parents is not reproducible here.

				Steve

| Two examples, to illustrate what I am thinking about...

| a) w.r.t the mechanics of homosexuality: my sense is that such 'mechanical'
| interactions are QUITE common among pubescent and early adolescent boys.
| (say age 11-15 or so). This starts out with such things as 'who has more
| pubic hair', and 'whose penis is bigger' and frequently progresses from
| side by side masturbation, through mutual masturbation to 'and so forth'.

	I see where you are coming from, by seperating the two. One is a
homosexual act, while the other is a lifestyle. 

| Most of these boys grow up to be Heterosexuals. 

	You base this on....

| (I have often wondered whether many male 'Homophobes' are indeed men who
| have participated in such homosexual activities and are apprehensive
| about the Homosexual implications.

	I won't touch this one. ;-)

| b)	In prisons, homosexual activity is rampant. But the one who is a
| beneficiary of the mechanical acts is not typically viewed as
| Homosexual. Rather, that receiving the 'favors' of someone else is...
| 1) more pleasurable (than doing it alone)
| 2) an assertion of power (maybe the order of these 2 should be
| reversed?)

	How about all that time (however many years) without sex can make
someone want it just for the purpose of having an orgasm. If they still had sex
with men outside of prison, then I would call them homosexual, as I'm sure you
would.

| The benefactor on the other hand, -who might 'service' several
| cons- is viewed either as
| 1) a Homosexual
| 2) a 'wimp' who has been overpowered by somebody higher in
| the power hierarchy. This 'wimp' is sometimes referred to as
| wife or girlfriend.*

	How about someone who might not be getting out of prison for a long
time who yearns for sex? If someone is overpowered by someone who is bigger
than they are, or by a group of people, that person is hardly a wimp. 


Glen

| what the hell is your point

	Would you believe that I was agreeing with most of what you said? I
just added a few other things to your list of reasons.




Glen

>Assuming As I do, that homosexuality is a dysfunction [...]
    
>?   Please understand that not everyone agrees with your assumption. 

I used the term I not we, whats your point?
 
   
>And yes I would consider myself a failure as a parent to produce a child 
>with any major dysfunctional behavior. 
    
>?    Does this mean that if your child becomes an alcoholic, it's
>?    *your* responsibility?  I believe you overestimate your influence
>?    on your child.

OK, So your saying parents aren't responsible for their children
as in "oh let them run around on their own". If your child became an alcoholic
your response would of course be its got nothing to do with me?
Sounds like classic denial. What would you be doing while the behavior started 
looking the other way......

    Herb, 
    
    I agree with your points that teenage homosexual behaviour does not
    necessarily lead to an "H"omosexual Lifestyle, and I obviously believe
    the h/H distinction is useful.
    
    But I think the major reason for acquiescing to sex in prisons is
    simply fear, or protecting one's life...
    
    Dave
    

    Have you ever noticed how men feel a great desire to be right, i.e.
    correct? That their objective in discourse is to win?
    
    I consider such behavior immature. More importantly, I think it reduces
    thoughtfulness: such men are more interested in mustering arguments to
    "prove" their views, than in developing a balanced view of a subject.
    It makes me weary, and frustrated.

>I used the term I not we, whats your point?
    
    Nothing more than this: some homosexuals may object strenuously 
    to your applying the term dysfunction to their orientation.
    
>OK, So your saying parents aren't responsible for their children
>as in "oh let them run around on their own". 

    No.  You're talking about discipline; I'm talking about who your
    children are.  You cannot control what your children become, any
    more than your parents controlled who you became.  You can shape
    their choices, and guide them, and make suggestions, and even try
    ordering them, but you cannot make them do or be anything.
    
    
>If your child became an alcoholic your response would of course be its got
>nothing to do with me?
    
    Of course it has something to do with me; but chances are, it has more
    do to with genetics than anything else.
    
>Sounds like classic denial. What would you be doing while the behavior started 
>looking the other way......

    I'd educate them.  I happen to be an expert on addiction.
    
    Yes, it also has to do with environment, and upbringing, and all that
    other stuff, but: some things are beyond your control.  I happen to
    believe sexual orientation is one of them.
    
    					andrew

	OK, a few more questions. Some have said they would try and support
their child(ren) if they came out. Others have said various things like they
would seek out a psychiatrist, tell the kid(s) to get lost, punch and then cut
off the IV of the lover, dig a shallow grave or treat it like a disfunction.
I'm glad to see that everyone was honest. But there are a few things I'm still
wondering about.


	What brought you to the conclusion that their orientation was wrong to
the point that you would cause physical or verbal abuse to the child or their
lover?

	Why do you feel so strong about striking out as a first reaction as
opposed to listening?

	Would you be embarrased to mention this to your friends or family?

	Would you ask your child(ren) to NOT tell anyone else?

	How would you react if knowing you had a gay child, and one of your
friends were making fun of gays and putting them into a "scum of the earth"
catagory? 

	You know how your child is, so would you stand up for your child, or 
would you just let them continue to place everyone into the same catagory?

	Do other family members feel the same as you?


Glen

    re. 44
    
    Well done!!
    
    Alice T.

    My kid(s) wouldn't ever have to make such an announcement.  Their lives
    would unfold with total acceptance from me.  As soon as sexuality
    became a part of their lives such that their orientation became known
    to them, it would also become known to me - and would be a non-issue.
    
    The bed habits of the people I love are of no interest to me whatsoever
    with the exception of the one person with whom I share *my* bed.  Lord,
    people make such a big deal out of sex.
    
    Sandy

    I was thinking last night about the rather dipolar views we've seen on
    this subject: from the "punch-out" few to the "enlightened" majority,
    and I wondered if the following might not be true (in which case, their
    might be signifcant grey areas of overlap between the two camps)...
    
    1) Much like the "deadbeat ex-husbands" note, I would suspect that only
       a small percentage of the readers that had the "punch out" attitude
       would be willing (IMO, have the courage) to reply like that in print.
    
    2) To me, the "punch out" mentality seems to be a visceral, gut-level,
       first-instinct, "male" type of response.  And I believe that after 
       reacting this way, most "punch out" types would calm down, and begin 
       to deal with the situation in a more caring, "enlightened" manner.
    
    3) Those parents that have as their primary reaction the "punch out"
       mentality have likely already (subtlely or not no subtlely)
       communicated this attitude toward lesbigays to their offspring, and
       therefore are less likely to be confronted in this way in the first
       place.
    
    4) If the "enlightened majority" were totally honest with themselves, I 
       suspect that MANY (please, no responses simply defending your
       enlightened view as the only one you have ever held) have had 
       to LEARN this reaction, and have had to subjugate their visceral, 
       punch-out reaction.
                                               
    Do any of these thoughts ring true with you??
    
    Dave

    
    
    The topic of the Oprah show today is "When ALL your children are gay"
    
    bonnie

    re:.49
    
       My cousin came out and his dad had the punch out response.  He got
    over it and handled it well from that point on.
    
       For those of us who were raised "enlightened"(snicker), I agree we
    did *learn* it from out parents and peers...just as those who wish
    to punch out the offending person has.
    
    
    
                                     L.J.

    
    So little time to note...
    
    I'd accept it although I may ask for some time to let
    me come to terms with it before our conversation proceeded
    further. 
    
    As for their lover....well, I guess I'd accept them too.
    Hell, I love my two boys. If their road through life differs from
    mine, so be it. 
    
    							Hank

    >>I'd accept it although I may ask for some time to let
    >>me come to terms with it before our conversation proceeded
    >>further. 
    >>
    >>As for their lover....well, I guess I'd accept them too.
    >>Hell, I love my two boys. If their road through life differs from
    >>mine, so be it. 
    
    	Hank:  That's the approach I'm TRYING to take with my parents. 
    But, "coming to terms with it" means (I think) doing some reading, some
    studying, some talking, etc.  My parents "coming to terms with it" has
    basically involved refusing to talk about it.  They say they accept me,
    but they refuse (I've been told to shut up by my father) to talk to be
    about such things as AIDS, etc., even when I try to tell them that I'm
    not at risk.  I really wanted (needed!) some family support last year
    when I lost 13 friends to AIDS in a 12 month period.  That support
    wasn't there.  Unfortunuately, my experience (through talking with
    friends) indicates that though many parents SAY they are accepting, few
    really demonstrate unconditional acceptance but, instead, pay only
    lip-service to their acceptance.
    
    	Acceptance is an "active role", not a "passive role".
    
    	    Greg

    RE:.54 active and passive rolls
    
        To an extent I agree, but only to an extent.
    
        If my son told me he was gay, it wouldn't make a difference in my
    life.  This also means I won't support his lifestyle by going to
    demonstrations and such simply because he's gay.  I won't go to
    seminars on handling homosexuality.  I didn't go to these before
    and I won't start because someone I know and love is gay.
    
        On the other hand I will listen to his personal problems about
    his lifestyle as I would on any other subject.
    
        I wouldn't expect him to go to church with me if I became born
    again.  I would expect him to have logical discussions with me on 
    the subject of our personal beliefs.
    
        I've known too many people that believe if you don't actively
    support them, then you're against them.  I'm not saying anyone in
    here is one of those people...just stating a personal fact.
    
    
    
                                         L.J.

    
    Denial..."You can't be, you went to the prom with X and said you
	were in love with Y in college!"

    Anger..."You stupid @#$%, I never want to see you again!  Get out of 
 	my house and don't come back until you come to your senses!"

    Shame..."Oh my God what if the neighbors or the people at church
	or the *relatives* find out?  We'll be ruined!"

    Hurt..."What did we do to make you like this?  Didn't we love you
    	enough and give you everything we could?"

    Ignorance..."It's those faggy/dykey friends of yours, isn't it?  They
	talked you into this, didn't they?"

    Guilt trip..."Why are you saying these things?  You just want to
 	hurt us, right?  Why do you hate us so much?"

    More hurt..."I don't know what happened to you.  I used to have a
	son/daughter, but I don't any more."

    More guilt trip..."Do you know your mother hasn't slept at all
	since you told us, and my ulcer is acting up again?  Well it's
	all *your* fault!  Are you happy now?"

    More denial..."I give up.  I don't want to discuss it any more."

	End of shouting.  End of crying.  Beginning of Cold War.

    This is not hypothetical.  It has happened, is happening, and will
    happen.  Many, many, many times.

    Sometimes the cold war ends in a truce of peaceful coexistence.
    Sometimes it ends with accepting hugs and the disturbance in the
    family tranquility is mended.  Sometimes it ends with the family
    'excommunicating' the person for good, or the person alienating
    him/herself totally from the family.  Sometimes it never ends...

    
    Btw, if you're in the middle of a Cold War and don't want to be
    (or would like to avoid one) "The Dance Of Intimacy" has some
    good stuff about it....
    
    'gail

    
    
    >I'm not so sure _people_ make such a big deal out of sex, however i
    >believe it _is_ the case that _men_ very, very often make 'such a big
    >deal' out of sex.
    
    That's an interesting point herb.
    After some thought I think I agree with you.
    I'd always thought that society generally made a big deal out of
    sex but, come to think of it, the "society generally" I was considering
    was mainly a male view through the media, TV, and image-making
    industries....
    
    However, I beg to differ on the reasons...
    
    >It one sense it seems that it's a much MORE important part of our
    >lives than it is for women -in that sexual drive is so potent.
    
    Women can have a very potent sexual drive.
    Yes, there are some women like some men to whom it isn't really
    that important (I'd suspect that some men find it harder to admit
    this,however), but for many women sex drive can be as important
    a part of her life as a man's is for his.
    
    That's my feeling on it anyway. I find it hard to discuss because
    there's no way that I know of of quantifying, weighing, and measuring
    raw sexuality. Thank heavens.
    
    >In another sense it's a much LESS important part of our lives than it
    >is for women in that it is typically so relatively easy to satisfy.
    
    How so herb?
    Does that suggest that it's difficult for women to be satisfied, or
    that it seems difficult to men for *them* to satisfy most women?
    
    'gail
    
    
    

    Re: .54
    
    Hi Greg,
    
    	Damn, sure sorry to hear about you losing so many friends.
    
    	When I mentioned coming to terms with it, I just meant
    	taking a little time to digest what they've told me
    	so that I could talk with them without putting my foot
    	in my mouth (or at least minimizing the danger :-))
    
    	As I said, if they take a different road thru life, fine.
    	I'll always hope we can talk, about anything. And I plan
    	to do my best to give them the emotional support they'll
    	be needing at various stops thru life, whenever, wherever,
    	whatever......well there is one notable exception.
    	If one of em grows up to be like Jim Braude, I'll
    	have to disown em.
    
    						Regards
    
    							Hank
    
    	ps. George, how ya doing bud?

	So, any response to .43? 

.60> So, any response to .43? 

Sometimes questions of this nature are not  easily  answered  until  you
"face  the music".  I know nothing of your personal life, Glen, but, for
myself, I have two kids -  two  girls.   Many  many  times  I've  played
scenarios  of  "what-if  this and what-if that" for different situations
which may or may not arise during the process of raising these kids.

More often than not, by the time this-or-that actually comes to pass the
scenario  has  changed  ...   perhaps  ever so slightly ...  but ...  it
changed and therefore may dictate a different direction in the response.

Yes, you can talk about a lot of things in global terms, but,  the  real
"nitty-gritty" is hard to come by until the situation comes to pass.

Also, there's the issue of "reality"  -  sure,  it's  possible,  but,  I
seriously  doubt  that  either  of  my  girls is homosexual.  Therefore,
without some resemblance to reality it's very difficult for me to answer
a lot of these questions.  Frankly, I hope they're very heterosexual.

Then again, there's the issue of the "psyche" of the  individual  child.
Sometimes  I  think that my two girls are of different parents!  They're
really dramatically different in their personalities.  I may  react  one
way  to one girl and take a slightly (or dramatically) different tangent
with the other girl.

I hope that you (if  you  want)  have  the  opportunity  to  raise  some
children  -  then you'll have a better perspective on what I'm trying to
say.  These are indeed the "best of times and the worst  of  times"  and
predictability  is  sometimes  just  not  in  the  cards  where kids are
concerned.

I could compose some very eloquent  and  PC  scenarios  to  answer  your
questions,  but, for the most part it may or may not amount to a hill of
beans by the time she says "...dad, there's something  that  I  want  to
tell  you".   Too  many  factors ...  I just don't know ...  an educated
guess would be the only basis that  I  could  use  to  respond  to  your
inquiry.

Bubba

    I would be devastated. I would, I hope/believe, still love my
    son but would feel very bad. When you have a child you want them
    to grow up healthy and happy. You want them to become good people.

    There are to be sure good and happy Gay people. I claim some of them
    for friends. But I can't agree that they are healthy. Yes many disagree
    with me but that does not make me wrong. It's a lot easier to accept 
    things happening in/to people that are not family. One tends to have
    higher expectations and standards of ones children then for ones
    friends. Many of my friends support and take part in activities that
    I do not approve of. Drinking, smoking, sex out of marriage, abortion,
    swearing, on and on. From my son I expect better. 

    			Alfred

    
    
    One question Alfred.  You say gay people are "unhealthy".  Would you
    please say in what way you feel gay people are unhealthy.
    
    	Thanks.
    
           Greg

.62> I would be devastated. I would, I hope/believe, still love my
.62> son but would feel very bad.

    I don't think that ANYTHING would diminish my love for my girls.

    However ...

    Truth be known, I would probably be devastated. Why? For a number
    of reasons, not the least of which is my own (admittedly) selfish
    attitude in looking forward to some day (not right now, thank you)
    having grandchildren that I could spoil and spoil and spoil and
    spoil ... and love *every* *minute* of it.

    Hey, like I said, they are hopefully as straight as the day is long,
    and, they may decide to not marry or not have children if they marry,
    so ... like I said earlier ... predictability and kids are rarely two
    words that I use in the same sentence ... too many factors involved.

    Basically, I want to get 'em growed up and married and OFF OF MY PAYROLL!
    :-)

    Bubba

| I would be devastated. I would, I hope/believe, still love my
| son but would feel very bad. When you have a child you want them
| to grow up healthy and happy. You want them to become good people.

	I can understand when you say you always expect more from your family.
That's a normal reaction. I think most people would feel that way. You view
homosexuality as wrong, so this is why you expect better. But I guess what I
don't understand is you say you hope/believe you would still love your child. 
My question to you is this. For you to even use the word hope, then maybe you
would have some feelings right now that make you think this way. What are those
feelings? I'm curious.

| There are to be sure good and happy Gay people. I claim some of them
| for friends. But I can't agree that they are healthy. 

	As Greg had asked, what do you view as unhealthy?

	I look forward to your reply. 


Glen

I really don't think this is the appropriate forum for a discussion of
people's personal opinion of gays.  I'd rather see it stay on the topic
of the base note.

As for grandchildren, many gays and lesbians have children of their own.

				Steve

    
    
    Sigh..........
    
    Steve, the questions asked ARE related to the base note.
    
    	Greg

	Steve, the person answered the base note, correct?

	The questions were about why they feel the way they do, correct?

	How does this NOT stay within the base note? 


Glen

| I think there is a difference between answering the question
| "how would you feel if..."

| and responding to the challenge
| "why would you answer the question that way" or
| "how can you justify having that attitude?" or
| "waddayamean bein' gay is sick or abnormal"
| which is the way this discussion seems to have drifted.

	There was no mallace, challenge or any other thing you can think of
intended. Think about it. A lot of people have put things in this string that
could have started many an argument. But has one started? This is more of a
learning thing. I like to hear just why people feel the way they do. Please 
believe me, I'm only interested in the reasons why, not in starting an argument.


Glen

Glen,

Maybe you had some other agenda in mind, but I don't see in the base note
an opening to challenge people's reasons for the way they feel about
gays in general.  That's how I see it.  I'm not saying that there is no 
place for such a discussion, but this is not the topic for it.  (Unless
you want to declare that that was really what you were after in the base 
note.)

				steve

| Maybe you had some other agenda in mind, but I don't see in the base note
| an opening to challenge people's reasons for the way they feel about
| gays in general.  That's how I see it.  I'm not saying that there is no
| place for such a discussion, but this is not the topic for it.  (Unless
| you want to declare that that was really what you were after in the base
| note.)

	Steve, I don't understand you. I asked a lot of questions in the
base note. Those questions were about how would they react to <insert
situation>. With their answers, what do you think it showed? It showed how 
the various people in this file feel about gays. Some were supportive, some
were not. Did any of those questions bring on any problems? No. I asked some
more questions as to why the people felt the way they do, not as a challenge,
but just as before, wondering why they feel this way. They never got answered.
Then I asked Alfred to please explain how he felt as he mentioned some things
that I had questions about. Plain and simple. But, in your judgement,
you feel an attack will ensue and then all hell will break out. If it were
going to break out Steve, it would have already happened. But it didn't. I get
the feeling you would rather rathole this topic because then that will stop any
communication between anyone. Who knows, maybe you're upset because it's not
going that route, or maybe you would like to see it go that route, I don't
know. But like I said, if it were going to happen, it already would have. Can't
we have a simple discussion without ratholes? Just what is the big deal? 


	I have a question for the file, are there any other people in here who 
feel that the questions were going to cause an argument or that they would be
taken as an attack?


Glen

>	I have a question for the file, are there any other people in here who 
>feel that the questions were going to cause an argument or that they would be
>taken as an attack?
    
    In a word, yes. It's rather hard for me to believe that anyone with
    any understanding of public opinions about Gay people would ask me
    the questions I have been asked except to start an argument or use
    as a basis for an attack. I decline to fight.
    
    			Alfred

| Problably not, but they will make may folks uncomfortable about the
| whole issue. Thus making great distances between the hets and the gays.

	Actually, I thought it would just help get a better understanding
between everyone. Hmmm.....

| As mentioned before. Is this a question and answer to make people
| understand eachother or is it to make a cross for marters?

	No crosses here. George, remember one thing. People wrote honestly how
they felt about those certain situations that were discussed in the base note.
Did that turn sour? As Alfred put in his note, he declines a fight. There is no
fight ensueing. The questions were asked for an understanding other people's
views, nothing more. Many people have put in here about valuing differences,
and why don't we value theirs (theirs=straight men from this conference)? Well,
it will be kind of hard to do that if we don't here their views, as then we'll
have nothing to value. Here's your chance to be heard, but it's up to you to
take it.


Glen

.75> I decline to fight.
.78> I to decline to fight.

		"I fight when I have to, and am very glad
		to get out of it when I haven't to."

					George Bernard Shaw
					"Arms and the Man" (1894)

    		"The better part of valor is discretion."

    					William Shakespeare
    					"Henry IV", Part I, Act V

	Last night CNN and NBC both reported that there was a study done
between straight males, women, and gay men. What they found was this. The part
of the brain that controls the sex drive is smaller in both the gay male and
female, larger in the straight male. They are going to rerun the study again to
check for repeatablity. If the results are the same, it could be one factor/the
whole reason as to why some men are gay and others are not. Now, if this were
proven to be the reason why, how would you answer the questions that were in
the base note? I have listed them below:



	This note is about how you feel you would handle if one of your kids
told you they were either lesbian, bisexual or gay.

How would you handle it?

Why would you handle it in that fashion?

If your first reaction was negative, do you think the love you have for your
child would be able to overcome the negative feelings?

How would you react to their lover (if applicable)?


	This is something that can really happen, just what would you do if it
did?

    To state the preceding more concisely (this is a guess):
    
    If it were determined that sexual orientation was purely genetic, would
    that alter how you would receive the news that your child is gay?
    
    I guess the implication of genes is shared responsibility: "Son, your
    Mom and I combined our gametes and you came out the way you are." I
    guess you could heap blame on yourself and/or your wife for the
    tragedy, if that's how you perceive it. Otherwise, I don't get the
    importance of a genetic explanation. The child is what the child is.
    Knowing what the explanation may be elucidating, but doesn't change the
    result. I feel the same way about psychoanalytic mumbo-jumbo: the pain
    of your delivery has implications 38 years later in how you reply to
    notes topics. Yeah, right, who knows and who cares?!

.81> -< What if you ate some <unknown> and WOKE UP gay?! >-

Here's a better twist on the subject:  Suppose you ate something and
woke up un-gay?

Now, in view of the fact that the determination of an organic basis
for homosexuality is on the horizon ... the next horizon may well
be that of a "cure" or "correction" for homosexuality.  Suppose
your 10 year old child came to you with the "I want to tell you
something" and there is now a safe medical procedure to correct
this.  Would you, as parent or legal guardian for the child, force
this procedure on your child or just "let it be"?

Bubba

PS - don't nit-pick to death the "cure/correction" word(s) that I've
used.  I simply can't come up with a PC word right now that means
change_from_homosexual_to_heterosexual

    re:.82
    
       Let the child reach maturity (18 in this country) and make up
    their own minds.  If they like the way they are and decide to deal
    with all the prejudice the world will shove at them, fine.  If they
    want to have the operation that's okay too.  Wouldn't really matter
    one iota to me.  It's their life and their choice.
    
    
    
                                     L.J.

.83> ... have the operation ....

    May not be an operation - just a pill.

    Bubba

    One point to mention here, the article mentioned that the brian
    area in gay men was the same as the area in straight women. Apparently
    the brain starts out female and is masculinized during development
    in genetic males. 
    
    This leads me to the following thoughts:
    
    Given that the brain is nealy completely developed at birth, I
    strongly suspect that it would not be possible to 'treat' someone
    to cause this area to grow post natally.
    
    Will it be possible to tell early enough in the fetal development if
    the fetus is female or a potential gay male? The external genitilia
    look female until around the 4th month of fetal development. Seems
    to me that by the time it is possible to tell if a fetus is going
    to be male or female the area in the hypothalimus that is different
    may well have finished forming.
    
    
    
    Bonnie

It would be interesting to look at an existing "nonconformity" known to
be caused by genetics, and the rather rabid reaction of some parents when
they discover that their child has been "afflicted" with this "horrible
disorder".  Indeed, it affects about the same portion of the population which
is said to be gay.  I'm referring to left-handedness.

When children are born, there is no way to tell whether they'll grow up
to be right or left handed.  But as the child grows older, and starts
showing a preference for one hand or the other, many parents of left-handed
children go out of their way to "correct" their children and force them
to live in a right-handed manner.  This causes intense frustration for
the children and can result in learning and emotional disabilities.  But
for those parents who view left-handedness as "just another way people
are different", the child grows up to accept their left-handedness,
even though the right-handed bias of our world makes it a challenge.

I see a lot of similarities here to being gay, and people's reaction to it.

Perhaps if this medical finding (I read the article, and it was cautioned
that the sample size was too small, and there have been contradictory
earlier studies, to make any sort of conclusion from it) did indeed turn
out to be valid, then at least we'd perhaps get some people to stop believing
that being gay is a learned behavior.


			Steve

| Did you see the media that did the same story about the serial
| killer who was gay? Did in 60+ folks. Most gays can handle their life
| style. And I am not knocking that, and there are a very very few who
| cannot. Case in point.

	George, I have a question for you. Did you ever think that his sexual
orientation had nothing to do with it? If he were the 'traditional male' type,
it would have been women instead of men. Could the reason why he had sex have
been for the orgasm itself? Are we saying that heterosexual males who molest
oppisite sex children, or who rape other women, or who kill anyone, regardless
of their sex are doing so because they can't handle their sexual orientation?
I don't see that, but maybe you do. The guy you're talking about killed because
he was a sick individual, not because he was gay.


Glen

    I want to self-congratulate myself, publicly, for maintaining a
    quiet, level-headed, professional demeanor during this current change
    in direction of this topic.

    Thank you, Bubba, for keeping your mouth shut and not blowing your top.
    
    Be cool, Bubba, collect your thoughts, then respond with the utmost in
    professionalism and tact ... perhaps during the weekend.  Please send
    congratulatory mail to MORO::BEELER_JE.

    Bubba

    Jerry
    
    If you can keep your tongue, so can I.
    
    Bonnie

    Back to the original topic...
    
    I would still love my child and show the support as I would were he/she
    to be heterosexual.  I would have greater concern for their happiness,
    not because I'm uncomfortable with homosexuality, but because I'm
    uncomfortable with society's reaction to it-I would not actively choose
    for my child to live his/her life in a way which would bring them that
    unneeded extra pain-life is tough enough already.  A lover would be 
    accepted same as a heterosexual couple would be accepted-if they aren't
    married or in an otherwise deeply committed relationship, they don't
    sleep together under my roof (my puritanical side is showing here).
    
    Christine