Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I'll give you a reason mine didn't.  At first, after the finalization
    of the divorce, he said all I had to do was come by his house and
    get the money, usually in cash.  When the day came, that I didn't
    want to go to his house anymore 'cause I always had to talk to him
    first, I told him to just mail me the support money.  That pissed
    him off, so he stopped and I refused to go to his house.  I was
    tired of being manipulated by him, so I went to start up getting
    the child support through Adult Probation, which keeps a record
    of all child support.  Well, he didn't like being told what to do,
    so he refused to pay.
    
    Next, came the suits.  I tried to get his wages garnished.  Which
    took over a year to do.  Then he quit his job.  Then some other
    agency I went to, found him and wrote him a letter.  That finally
    prompted him to send the support through them.  Then I moved out
    that state and left no forwarding address.  I wanted to be out his
    life.  So that ended the child support, 'cause that particular agency
    was run by the state and they couldn't continue harrassing him.
     And needless to say, the ex stopped paying to the Adult Probation,
    and I didn't want him trailing me.  Until 2 years later, I started
    child support hunt again through the new state in which I live.
     It's been 1.5 years and no help.  
    Anyway, I wrote, the now 2 years no see, no hear ex a letter asking,
    quite politely, for support 'cause I couldn't believe he really wanted
    me and his kids to struggle as hard as we were.  By this point he
    had taken up housekeeping with his girlfriend.  Well, the
    following week, I had those checks coming again.  So, he owes us
    quite a bit at this point.
    
    So, when the kids reach 18, should the ex and I not make it, (we're
    in reconciliation at the moment) and if they want, I will let them
    know that they can get the back pay from their dad.  After all,
    it's owed them.  In the mean time, to make up for all that back
    support, he will support me in some manner, not totally, so that
    I continue college in a more timely manner and I've quit my 2nd
    job.                                                
                
    At times, I want to leave the kids with him and take off, to leave
    him with all the worries, emotional and financial.  But, things
    are going well right now, so what the hey.  But, I swear, if we
    can't cut it, he's got them.  I'll be the non-supporting ex for
    a change.  (Note:  I couldn't do that really though.  I want my
    kids to continue in sports and dance as they are, so that would
    definitely take extra mulla, which he doesn't have.  I don't want
    to be completely unfair to my kids, just to spite him.)
    So bottom line, some guys don't take to authoritive measures and
    the the party owed has to keep fighting.  And secondly, they may
    feel like they're getting a raw deal for the value, 'cause they're
    not seeing their kids.  Totally irrational but straight out of the
    horse's mouth.

    Why do I think it's unlikely you're going to have too many replies
    from men not paying support?  ;^)
    
    
    
                                  L.J.

    Jack,
    
    The way you came on... I hope no one has a blanket party for you.
    
    I suggest you go read QUOKKA::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARENTS for a while, if
    your serious about wanting to know why.  I think your blood pressure
    will come down.
    
    I'd be careful calling anyone "scumbag" if I were you, especially since
    you're ignorant of the facts.
    
    Press keypad 7 to add the conference.

    No one says it "don't happen."
    
    I'm saying men can "out-match" women's stories all day.
    
    And by reading the other conference, you'll understand why some men
    say to Hell with it.

    Gee, Jack. I know some guys who get $11 a week after thier ex's get
    their wadges garnished. The man in question, had been living in a car,
    held a job in a fine company like Digital, ate crakers, water, and
    hitched to work. Made lots of money and the judge put him into poverty.
    He suports the house, maintence/alimoney, and child suport. Oh, buy the
    way the ex has a live in boyfriend and cannot get him to help suport
    the house hold. 
    
    My real question to you Jack, is have you been to any mens suport
    groups lately and talked to these people? Did you read 612? 

    I know a man who has custody of his daughter, (not me, yes I have
    custody of my daughter too.) and has not gotten one farthing from his
    ex since January 1 of the year. Is paying off the marrital bills that
    usually follow the initial divorce paper service. As in, she takes the
    credit cards and goes out on a great shopping spree. He, lives in a two
    bedroom cellar apartment with the kid, cat, and two large fish. And is
    still in court for she now wants him to pay for her attorney bills,
    wants him to pay for child suport on two other children who are not
    his, and that she has put into a foster home. What a woman! YES! She is
    a modern day women of the 90's. Jack, my friend, just as there 'Dead
    Beat Dads' there also exist 'Dead Beat Moms' too. And this woman has
    had a $30k ++ year income. Quit it to play the 'modona with the child
    act', but she doesn't have the kids anymore! I know, I just saw her in
    court monday!! WOW! That opening line of scum-bags! Gee, I hope lad you
    don't get the privilage of living in a car for 3 months of the winter.
    Gets cold here in New Hampshire. This guy was lucky, he got to spend 2
    weeks in the celar of the marrital home before she got a TRO on him.
    Whats a TRO? Its a temp restraining order. Whats a living in a celar
    like? Don't know, perhaps you should try, and while your at it you
    cannot use the front door, no access to the refridge, and no showers.
    Do you live in a cold climate where there is snow? Try this winter
    to spend a weekend in your car. Just your sleeping bag. Got a sub
    compact? Gee, thats too bad. Try it. 

    woaaaa...not playing moderator or anything, guys, but I think we
    should just calm down here, fellas...this is a touchy subject, to be 
    sure...but it's bad enough that the situations should even occur 
    considering the reasons we marry the girls in the first place. I'm
    going through some emotional traumas myself, and me and my ex didn't
    even have kids. But I probably *would've* ended up in a car in a frozen
    wasteland myself financially, should child support payments ever have
    come up. I guess I'm one of the luckier ones, in this regard. 
    
    A guy just won some case where he had been paying for his ex-wife's kid, 
    and it wasn't even *his* child. This would burn in me, as well, and I do 
    agree with this ruling. But, I do agree with the concept of *reasonable*
    payments for a father to assist in the support of his child(ren). However, 
    mothers are getting stiffed by their ex's and fathers are getting
    rooked by the courts because such payments are *unreasonable*. These 
    problems are with the system (for both parties, mothers and fathers 
    seeking fairness and justice from the courts). 
    
    I also consider this to be a serious contributing factor in the increase of
    domestic violence, especially in the state of Massachusetts. But, let's
    not start throwing accusations and insults at one another as to who(m) is 
    doing the right or wrong thing.   

    
      Thanks Dwight, ( .3 )  Yes, I did KP7 on NON_COSTODIAL_PARENTS.
     I'll start reading thru tonite...
    
       And you make a good point, it's true, lately I've been seeing and
    hearing mostly one side of the picture. 
    
    later...
      
    
     

    re.past couple of replies
    
    I'm reading your replies as filled with lots of hostility.  I feel
    that hostility is misdirected towards the basenoter.  The basenoter
    is asking for reasons for the non-payment from the non-custodial-dads
    and is not accusing them of anything as you seem to be implying.
     In one of his paragraphs he is citing some possible reasons for
    non-payment as he may assume are possible.  I don't believe that
    the basenote is making any slurs to these non-supporting fathers,
    but, only looking for answers.  And since this is MENnotes, it would
    seem natural that the basenote ask this question from men.  I would
    suggest that if you would like to know possilbe excuses or reasons
    from women that "jerk" the ex around, that you enter a note into
    WOMENnotes or NCP or some other note that doesn't ask answers from
    non-paying MEN.  Also, it can be interpreted that from your replies
    to this basenote that you are saying that since (and you seem to
    imply all women) are jerking around the ex, it's exusable as well
    as justified that the non-paying dad remain the non-paying dad!
                                                                   

    .9 
    
    No I am not implying anything of the such. I am implying that there are
    women who give so much grief to the dads. And make the hurt so bad that 
    turning away is their only reason to burry the hurt. Women who use the
    children like pawns in some sick power play. You missed a real basic
    note that I have give you. That there is A NUMBER OF DEAD BEAT MOTHERS
    OUT THERE WHO DON'T PAY JACK CHILDSUPORT EITHER. A two way street is the 
    term. A man is just a walking wallet in our society. 

    I don't have child support payments to neglect, so this is just
    speculation. 
    
    Why would a father fail to pay support?
    
    Because the divorce has shattered him and he's completely ineffectual
    at everything, including meeting his child support responsibilities.
    
    Because he is furious at his ex-wife and cannot bear to give her money
    for any purpose.
    
    Because he has little relationship with his children, due to geographic
    distance and/or ex-wife-induced or self-induced alienation.
    
    Because he doesn't lose anything by NOT paying support, e.g. his
    relationship with his ex- can't get worse and his relationship with his
    children isn't damaged or can't get worse.
    
    Because he has taken on another family and is providing for THAT
    family.
    
    Because he's a selfish jerk who has no empathy, who doesn't care that
    his ex-wife's and children's situation sucks.
    
    Because the legal system is so screwed up he knows that he can get away
    with it indefinitely, esp. because it takes money to hire an attorney
    to get the money he owes. This is particularly applicable to fathers
    who are out of state.
    
    Because he knows that his ex-wife won't get him thrown in jail, even if
    she has the resources to get it done, because it's bad for the
    children. "Hi, kids, how was school today, and you can't call your
    Daddy because he's in prison."
    
    Because he's untrained, a substance abuser, is terminally obnoxious, or
    for some other reason cannot hold a job.
    
    Because he is insane.                           

There is no "fair" way to allocate expenses for child support in the
situation where one parent has full custody.  Tyoically, the non-custodial
parent (usually the father, even if it was the mother who ran out) ends
up being required to pay 1/3 of his gross income to the mother, all for the
"privilege" of seeing his child a few weekends a year.  There is no way he
can control how the money is being spent, and there are certainly enough
stories of the mother spending child support money on herself rather than
the child.

But there are also cases where the father really has skipped out on his
obligations, for no good reason.  And many more cases where the father
dutifully pays the support, and more.  My own father was extremely generous
with child support, even to the extent of voluntarily raising it when my
mother asked for it.  My mother's second husband was the opposite, the
stereotypical deadbeat "scumbag".  I too am a divorced father, but I have
shared custody and pay half of my son's expenses without having to make
payments to his mother.  Mine is an unusual case, however.

As an example of how unfair court-ordered child support has become, 
non-custodial parents are required to pay to send their child to college.
Parents who are not divorced have no such requirement; they only need 
support their child until they turn 18, typically.

I do think that the base note showed an "attitude" and a prejudicial
stand against non-custodial fathers.  I also think it unlikely that anyone
would plausibly admit to not paying court-ordered child support, as
that would be equivalent to admitting commission of an illegal act.

There are horror stories on both sides of the fence.  Unfortunately, it is
the mothers who get the most publicity and sympathy.  The fathers who have
had their children taken away from them are left without recourse and support.

					Steve

    Addendum to .11:
    
    Because the ex-wife has remarried and between them, she and her new
    husband make plenty of money, so the non-supporting father needs the
    money more than his ex- and his children do.
    
    Re .12:
    
    The "1/3 of gross income" for child support is intriguing. Doesn't it
    matter how many children there are? How much Mom makes versus Dad?
    Their expenses? Mom's new husband's income? The absolute level of
    income, e.g. 1/3 of an extremely high income might be much more than is
    "needed", 1/3 of an extremely low income might be much more than Dad
    can afford.                       
    
    Dad is in itinerant musician, singing folk music and grossing $10,000,
    taking home $5000 after taxes and travel expenses. Mom is a software
    engineer at DEC making $50,000 while living in the house they paid off
    before their marriage ended, taking care of their single child. She
    gets the house and the child and $1700, leaving him with $3300. Right.
    
    When a college assesses how much financial aid to offer a prospective
    student, the starting point is the cost of attending the school, and
    the mediating factor is the parents' income and assets. It seems that
    the family court should be able to identify a base level of support,
    based on so many pairs of shoes, so many dinners, prevailing rents,
    etc. This "cost" would then be allocated between Mom and Dad according
    to their ability to pay.
    
    As suggested by an earlier reply, perhaps a perception of unfairness
    causes fathers to neglect support.

    A program called Dead Beat Dads was aired on a local TV station in
    Boston Ma. had some women who wanted to instutute it in Mass and
    sported dads on wanted posters. I saw no provisions for women on these
    posters. And felt that it was certainly gender bias in nature. One of
    the women wanted public steriolaziton to dads who did not pay. Where
    are the jack boots and arm bands? And they would use your SS number to
    hunt you down like in Nazi Germany. 

The problem IS equity! The person who is the real bread winner in the
family will inevitably be burdened with the the most financial losses
up front.
 That person will see the future they worked so hard for blown
up in smoke. They will lose most of their assets, they will
lose the ability to pick themselves up financially and they will lose
a big chunk of their life. Since they became the bread winner it was 
a big part of their life. Making 50 grand a year with 50 grand a year
pressures and seeing less then a supermarket bagboy take home is a
prison few can endure. Please bless those who do!  
 It is not really gender issue. Once a person asks the courts to make
decisions for them they are likely to be another statistic. Its far better
to negotiate and get support then ask for everything and end up with nothing.

    To all,    It was not my intent to pinch the nerves of those who
pay their fair share, especially those who carry unfair support burdens.

    After reading some topics in NCP conference,    I find it disturbing 
that there are so many stories of custody/visitation battles using children 
as pawns, ex-spouse bitterness towards the other, and unfair court decisions 
regarding child support payments. I can better understand the reasoning 
for the "fallout" brought on by my basenote. 
   
   THose who live up to their obligations under such nasty contitions 
deserve A WHOLE LOT OF RESPECT ! And you have mine !!!

Jack

    Child support is not so that the father has priviledge to see kids.
     Child support is ordered regardless if NCP see kids or not.  
    
    I agree with much of what previous noter had wrote as very possible
    reasons for non-payment.
    
    Until more fathers gain custody of their children, we will not see
    how the reverse rings with NCMoms.  I'm sure there will be non-paying
    moms as well.
    
    As noted earlier, negoiation would probably be best route.  
    
    It is not unfortunate that the mothers get most pubicity, it is
    high time that non-paying parents support their offspring.  The
    fact is, so far, that it's mostly moms that have full custody of
    the kids, therefore you're going to hear a lot more from them. 
    Secondly, if present laws are judged unfair, pertaining to amount
    of child support, then use the lobbying system as the CP have used
    to gain more strict ruling on receiving their children's checks.
    
    I would have been happy just to receive food at least, from non-paying
    dad.  He could see where every penny of his support went.  But as
    someone else has said earlier, it's more of an emotional and "political"
    statement from non-paying parent than anything.
    
    

    I am also sadden to see that fathers who don't pay make their children
    suffer greatly. I have also seen both sides now. I have heard and seen
    the moms side. But as stated by Henery David T., about the quiet lives
    of the quiet men who live in quiet desperations. Living quietly in
    cars, celars, and alleys. 
    
    There needs to be more suport for these men, who are alienated from
    their children. Who are living well below poverity and are working in
    good jobs with great companies like Digital. They too drive around in
    old cars and trucks that are standing, barely, on four wheels. You can
    take a walk out in the parking lots today at lunch and see these cars. 
    And tonight when they leave watch who gets into them. If you find one
    with a sleeping bag in it. Watch to see if that car seems to constantly
    have that lived in look. Then watch who gets into it.
    
    
    George

    
    	And just imagine that you find that it is a woman who gets into
    	that car, one of the large percentage of single mothers living
    	in poverty. But she does not get the luxury of living in the car
    	by herself, no, she has to share it (that little she has) with 
    	'her' children as well.                  
    

    When the system begins to treat who gets custody equidably (currently
    95% of the time, it goes to the mother, which is an improvement over
    the 98% previously), them perhaps the system might work better. The
    court system looks for who they can milk the most and then empties his
    pockets (saying his because that is the vast majority of victims of the
    system). The numbers that the court comes up with seem to be pulled out
    of thin air because of the following:
    
    1)If there were no children, the ex-wife would still need to support
      herself, have a place to live, have transportation, food etc. These
      costs would exist, children or not.
    
    2)Child support should only cover the ADDITIONAL expenses of raising a
      child, above any beyond those listed above.
    
    In another notesfile a while ago, we worked up some numbers for REAL-
    ISTIC costs for raising a child, assuming that BOTH PARENTS equally
    contributed to the cost. The figures were NOWHERE near the 1/3 of gross
    of anyone with a good salary. Hell, if you take someone making $50K,
    1/3 is $16,666, and I know WHOLE FAMILIES that live on that amount!
    Sure its not luxurious, but it can be successfully done. All gov't is
    doing is back door redistributing wealth on the whim of bureaucrats!
    
    As the the willingness of the NCP to pay child support, a study showed
    that where there was joint custody, the probability of the NCP of
    paying was much higher.
    
    Eric

    .19
    
    In deu respect, it is kinda hard to imagine with the womens shelters,
    womens suport groups, and the state and local goverments and their
    programs to imagine that they would find a situation like this at all.
    There are no provisions for men. Peroid. Nothing at all.

>    	And just imagine that you find that it is a woman who gets into
>    	that car, one of the large percentage of single mothers living
>    	in poverty. But she does not get the luxury of living in the car
>    	by herself, no, she has to share it (that little she has) with 
>    	'her' children as well.                  
 
That is a red herring! I'll be the first to admit that poverty exist in this
country and it is intolerable. But a person working every day and sleeping in
his car so that he can pay child support and all the bills or go to jail is not 
quite the same now is it. Child support is not designed to cover the above.
 That woman can go on relief until she gets on her feet and they find the guy
that owes her. But a guy making over the poverty level but gets far less 
has no recourse. What can he do call the welfare office and ask them to 
supplement his income, or call WIC?

    Our court system does not jail dead beat moms when they do not pay
    child suport. Our system does not take into account that there are men
    who have custody and need this suport for their children. There are
    women who are in real need and there are some who don't deserve a
    farthing. But all in all the court system is very very sexist towards
    men and custody of children. GAL's who lie to you about fairness in
    determination of who the child belongs with. The lawyers who tell you
    that you have a chance, you put up the momey and loose. The "madona
    with the child act" that goes on in front of the judges to plead the
    sympathy of the poor mother and the man standing there, with no chance
    of out acting her. Reguardless if he is beyond a doubt right in every 
    motion written and evidence. Its very hard for me to see at any level
    a farthing of fairness in our courts if you have external genatels.
    
    Lets understand, that your talking to a man who has gone to see these
    things first hand in our court system. Watch other men get hung out to
    dry by their attornies, judges, GAL's. Watched an attorney bad mouth a
    man in court using unprofessional language and the judge stood there
    and allowed it to happen. There is no justice for men in our court
    system today. And perhaps because men know this, they do the sleezy way
    outs. The do not owe up to whats right and a just thing to do when it
    comes to caring and gooming their offsprings.
    
    

In Mass. the legal limit of child support is 'supposedly up to 30% of Gross
per kid..

and if the 'ex is married, the ex's wifes wages can be garnished too..

So .0, does that give ya an idea what some of these guys are up against..

Look at it this way,,

	Wife kicks out Dad, gets restraining order, gets divorce
	(Cruel and abusive treatment...)

	Dad pays 30% of gross, can't afford can of soda...

	ex-wife sleeps till noon every day... thank you very much...

Now I know this isn't always the case, but it happens,,,

then again, maybe I shouldn't get involved in this discussion...

    Why are people that are paying support or people that know of others
    that are, responding?  

    -1
    
    Out of anger at the basenote!
    
    Besides, who ever stays on topic, anyhow?
    

    .25
    
    Why do you want these people to respond? So you can verbally abuse
    them? Send them hate mail? My ex is not paying me right now, perhaps
    we could get all those women who get a free ride to also speek up.
    Are you a member of WITCH? 

    re - .27
    
    <"Are you a member of WITCH?">
    
    Well...that's it...you're not getting a free subscription to "Woman's Day" 
    *this* Christmas!! ;') ;')
    
    Why do I get the feeling that if this conversation keeps going the way 
    its going (i.e. = HOSTILE), further responses aren't going to be able
    to be placed due to this topic being write-locked?
         
    

    Gee, can't understand why not? Your asking a loaded question to a bunch
    of guys who feel that the system has wrong us. Alienated our children
    from us. Thrown us into finical troubles. Forced many of us to move
    out of our homes. Falsely jailed us. Gee, what kind of hostile
    prevoked responce do you not want us to answer too? I am getting
    confused on what you want out of us? A pound of spit? A pint of
    blood?:)

    
    
    re .25
    
    If you were one of the non paying persons would you respond?
    These folks are often looked upon as scum.  For whatever reasons
    they have made a concious choice to turn thier backs on thier
    kids.  Would you stand up in a crowd and say that you were one
    of them??
    
    Also, if one of these folks did respond, they would be setting
    themselves up to be found out.  If you were getting away with
    not paying thousands of dollars, and if found were faced with
    paying what money you owed, would you fess up?
    
    IMO Your question really was not well thought out.
    
    Michele

    I went to court Monday to witness some real tom-foolery. A man, who has
    had custody of his child since Jan 1, of this year has not gotten a
    farthing from his ex. Who had a $30+k job! She quite, scummed out of
    paying min. of $50 per month, scummed out of paying half for the
    daughters eye glass's, scummed out of paying half of a private school
    that the ex insisted on sending the daughter too! She, scummed out to
    go on a vacation to a warm tropical place, scummed out to by herself 
    some contacts, scummed out to take martial arts class's. Gee. There is
    a second side to all this. I watched her hobble up to take the stand,
    (poor misstreated mother), and hang her head in shame as her attorney
    stroked her poor head. Gee, someone pass me a hankie! I
    think I am going to cry! Snob! Honk! Snifffel..... Where is the justice
    in this case? Out for a vacation to a warm tropical place? She too made
    the concious choice, she will never have to spend a day in jail for non
    payment of child suport. Wind up not paying back to her former husband
    a farthing of any back suport, or the joint marrital bills, or even the
    little things for eye care for her daughter. She is by all means a Dead
    Beat Mother. 
    
    Perhaps we could ask all those dead beat folks out there to stand up so
    that .25 can count them. And send them a memo saying cut that out and
    pay up.:) No hostility!:)

Maybe we could hear from people who know others (male or female) that 
don't pay child support.  I want to understand the motivation behind
this.

My story:

My STBXhusband and I have been separated for over a year.  When we separated
we made an agreement on the amount of child support that he would pay
in order for me to adequately be able to raise our son.  The two biggest
expenses that we considered were rent (my son and I stayed in the same
apartment that we had lived in for the last three years to try and keep
the changes to a minimum) and daycare, $100/wk.  In the beginning
he was very good about paying (if I called and reminded him and drove 20
miles to his house to pick it up).  Then about 6 months ago he took a six
week vacation to South America.  When he got back he refused to go back to
work until about a month after.  He was living with his girlfriend and
living off of her money and didn't have the money to pay child support.

Since starting back to work, he has been very sporatic about paying.  I
only get money when I inform him that the phone is going to be shut off or
that our son is going to get kicked out of daycare because I haven't been
about to pay for 3 weeks.  We recently moved back in with my parents because
I can't swing it alone anymore without child support (thank God for
supportive families).  He isn't living in poverty by any means.  He shares
an apartment so only has a portion of the rent and other expenses to pay.
He is always wearing new clothes..Reeboks, Bugle Boys, Levi's...My son
wears hand-me-downs.  Whateve new clothes we have are given to us by
my parents.
        
I have never tried to alienate my son from his father.  I encourage
their interaction.  When his Dad doesn't call him for a few weeks, I
have my son call him.  I did this for a long time but finally stopped
because I decided that it wasn't my job to keep their relationship going
if his Dad wasn't going to make an effort.  His father picks him up about
every other weekend.  My son doesn't want to go.  He says he doesn't like
his Dad and he doesn't want to go with him because he only sits in front 
of the TV and plays Nintendo all day.  He is 4 years old and actually
complains that all his Dad feeds him is candy, cookies, and soda.  He says his
Dad doesn't *listen* to him.  He doesn't want to go there any more.  It 
breaks my heart when I have to force him to go with his Dad and he is
screaming and crying.  This is not a healthy relationship.  

I don't know what do to anymore. 

Yes, the child support and the visitation are two different issues but
I'm just trying to say that my STBXhusband is neglectful of his child support
payments (and his child for that matter) not for any of the reasons that
have previously been stated by other men who have been treated badly by 
their exs and I want to know what the reason could possibly be.  

I know that this is also only my side of the story but I tried to be as
accurate as I could.  And I'm not even sure if I stated it in a coherent
way but hopefully you get the point.
    
    Thanks,    
    Pam

    re.25
    
    The reason I asked this question was to make a point!  No, duh,
    that not all these non-paying parents are going to stand up and
    proudly be counted!  

Pam,
I read your story very carefully and feel that there is a possibility
you are not looking at both sides of your own story. I too am on the 
same side as your husband and if you were to ask my wife you would get
the same response. Although I do pay child support and haven't missed one
yet I'm sure it could happen. The part that disturbs me is the fact that 
you feel the child does not want to be with his father. Unless the father
is an ax murder the child needs him period. In my case my ex makes the
same judgments about my son, when he doesn't want to be with me. In most
cases the resistance to keeping a positive image of his father is very difficult
in an environment where the mother or someone in the family who that child
perceives as a role model is enforcing a negative image.
 Some hints that it may be happening
- The child gives different answers to the same question when asked differently
  For example do you love your father vs you do love your dad right.
- All the good toys stay at moms house even the ones dad buys.
- Does he tell you about something he did with his father or are the
  boring parts only discussed.
For me the biggest change with my son was buying him a bike to keep with me
because it gave him an opportunity to do the same things the other children,
Although the next week he told my I was spoiling because he now has two 
bikes.
Remember if he only sees his child 8 out of 30 days you do own the
way he feels about dad most of the time. 
 There are some very good books on the subject and one theme if find mostly
is if the separation is constantly hostile both parents are at fault
Sorry this is just my opinion,
Mick

    I understand where you are coming from but I think my situation
    is a little different.  Most fathers do not pick up and leave for
    6 weeks and not call their child once.  Then come back and forget
    the child's birthday.  No, his dad is not an ax murderer.  But 
    neither are the fathers of many of the men in this file that have
    suffered tremendous pain because of neglectful fathers.
    
    I have never enforced a negative image of his father.  I have gone
    out of my way to try to keep their relationship positive but I
    gave up because I need to keep MY relationship with my son positive.
    I work 40 hrs. a week just like his Dad does and I do every thing
    I can to make the few hours we have together fun and enriching for
    both of us.  His father admits to sitting him in front of the TV
    and thinks he is doing him a favor by letting him eat sweets all
    day.  
    
    My input on the hints that you gave:  (yes, they were good hints
    but I don't feel that they apply here)
    
    -different answers: do you love your father vs you do love your
    dad right?
    
         I don't ask him if he loves his father.  We do talk about love
         and family.  He says "I love Mommy, and I love Gradmma and
         I love Grampa but I don't love Daddy"  I don't like to hear
         that.  I ask him for specific reasons why he says that he doesn't
         love his daddy.  I tell him all of the good things that Daddy
         does for him (yes, there are good things) and he says "but
         Daddy doesn't love me"  I ask him why he thinks Daddy doesn't
         love him.  "Because I tell him I want a peanutbutter sandwich
         and he gives me cookies, and I tell him I want milk and he
         give me Coke.  I tell him I need to go to the bathroom and
         he says we don't have time then he gets mad when I wet my pants"
         Perhaps this is simplistic to adults but to a little kid who
         has always been concerned about food that is good for him this
         is a big deal.  (anyone who knows me knows that he didn't get
         his good eating habits from me)  Anyway the discussion goes
         on like that.  And I let him guide the conversation.  Then
         I ask what things Mommy does that he doesn't like and he tells
         me and I try to work on that.  (ie:  you're always to tired
         read my stories before I go to bed.  He's right and I am so
         we read in the morning now instead.)
    
    -all the good toys stay at Mom's house even the ones Dad buys.
    
          Dad doesn't buy toys.  So this point is moot.  All the good
          toys were bought by Gramma and Grampa and some were sent to
          Dad's house.
    
    -discussing what he did
    
          When he gets home I ask in an excited voice "Hi, I bet you
          guys had lots of fun this weekend huh!"  Then I get to hear
          about how this kid in another apartment tried to throw sauce
          from the stove on him and another cousing locked him in the
          bathroom and turned the light off.  These things happened
          before he learned to lie.  Now the stories aren't so easy
          to decifer (ie: Daddy let me drink beer.  After asking him
          if this is true 3-4 times he admits that it was a lie.)
    
    I don't think I own the way he feels about his Dad.  I own the way
    he feels about himself.  I am trying to raise him to be a happy
    healthy child.  When his father comes to pick him up and he says
    "Daddy I don't want to go with you today"...He gets lied to by his
    father saying that he will bring him home before bedtime and he
    doesn't, he gets calles a crybaby and he gets told that he isn't
    acting like a man.  (he is only four for crying out loud!)
    
    So anyway.  That's it.  We will be moving out of state soon (with
    the permission of his father) and the divorce will take care of
    child support but I just don't understand why some people don't
    care about their kids well-being.  Maybe I expect too much.
    
    Pam

    re.37
    
    Maybe your ex is the one that's living with my ex.  And they
    are sharing notes.  Ya think? 

    No doubt about it, the possibilities are there yha know!:) Perhaps they
    are soul mates, or they have the same astro sign. Under the dog star
    Vega!:) Or the met each other under the other sign, "Joes Lounge
    Lizzards Lounge".:) Where poly-ester is king, and don't light up here,
    there will be allot of naked people around after wards!:)

.38
   I'm sorry I can only go by what you have written and the 
   conclusion that he does not love the child because he is 
   not a great parent is simply not valid. 
    
   
   

    .42
    
    I've often wondered about this very thing.  Does child support show
    that the other parent cares enough that their kids get enough to
    eat, a place to live in, and so.  My dad, left, remarried and maybe
    made 1 or 2 support payments.  He left my mom with 4 daughters and
    never looked back.  I don't get it.  After 17 years, we were reunited,
    (my sister looked him up by writing a letter to his mother) and
    I asked him why the abandmonment.  He said he loved all his daughters
    to the utmost and thought of us every day but just couldn't bring
    himself to visit or anything else.  I still don't understand to
    this day.  I resent him for taking care of his 2 stepdaughters and
    paying their way through school, while his 4 daughters really got
    the bum deal.  And I'm suppose to believe him.  I do! but it's not
    with a whole lot of respect.
    
    And then my dude, he didn't leave me but he drove me to leave. 
    Anyway, I know he loves his kids, but the only reason I can interpret
    by lack of support payments is that when the spouse, (especially
    the one that was left) feels so much resentment and hatred that
    to pay his ex any monies at all would contradict his emotions. 
    He wants his ex to hurt too.   I've tried imagining putting myself
    in the position of being the one left and ripped of my kids.  But
    it's too hard for me to imagine and I can't imagine letting my kids
    starve just to spite my ex.  I think the relationship that the couple
    has up to the divorce and the divorce itself has a lot to do with
    the outcome of receiving support and how the NCP acts towards his
    children.  Especially in the early years after the divorce.  If
    at least one of the ex-spouses can try to continue talks or letters
    and ask for counter thoughts, maybe some kind of good, or beneficial
    involvement can take place.   That's what happened between my ex
    and I and I am very grateful.  Of course, it wasn't 'til the hatred
    had subsided, that these communications were able to take place.
    
    Then again, it just seems a fact of life that some mothers or fathers
    are able to just "forget" they even have a child unless it includes
    having the wife or husband.

  
    .43
      
    >I've often wondered about this very thing.  Does child support show
    >that the other parent cares enough that their kids get enough to
    >eat, a place to live in, and so.  
 
    Good question! And maybe that is part of the problem, in my case I make
    all the payments and on time. Yet my wife still plays visitation games
    and mind games and what ever else kind of game to interfere with my 
    relationship with my child. So if I do reduce my employment and
    ten years later he asks me that same question, do I tell him your
    mother made me do it, do I say I just couldn't watch the pain in
    your face when I picked you up and you said I don't have to love
    you anymore if I don't want to. Or do I say I loved you and I'm 
    sorry. 
     I too hope time will heal old wounds
    

re:                      <<< Note 627.38 by CSCMA::PEREIRA >>>
 
<    I have never enforced a negative image of his father.  I have gone
<    out of my way to try to keep their relationship positive but I
<    gave up because I need to keep MY relationship with my son positive.
<    I work 40 hrs. a week just like his Dad does and I do every thing
<    I can to make the few hours we have together fun and enriching for
<    both of us.  His father admits to sitting him in front of the TV
<    and thinks he is doing him a favor by letting him eat sweets all
<    day.  
 
    and:
       
    
<    I don't think I own the way he feels about his Dad.  I own the way
<    he feels about himself.  I am trying to raise him to be a happy
<    healthy child.  When his father comes to pick him up and he says
<    "Daddy I don't want to go with you today"...He gets lied to by his
<    father saying that he will bring him home before bedtime and he
<    doesn't, he gets calles a crybaby and he gets told that he isn't
<    acting like a man.  (he is only four for crying out loud!)
 
    Pam... whether you think it or not, or agree or not, you DO own the
    MAJOR piece of the way he feels about his dad...especially if he is only 
    four.  You can't help it, and neither can he.
    
    Think about it.  This child lives with you, depends on you for his very
    existance.  YOU are the provider of love.  YOU are the security blanket
    in his life.  YOU read to him, take him to the bathroom, clothe and
    feed him.  YOU are the focus of his life.  
    
    He cannot, at that age, make judgements about LOVE, and about attitudes
    and feelings.  He tells you how he FEELS in terms that he has
    learned... from YOU.  He won't, in fact he CAN'T, express feelings or
    in any way conflict with what he SEEs in you and Hears from you, and
    Feels from you.  He won't be able to for years.
    
    As another noter has observed, your son's dad may, in fact, be a bum. 
    A really lousy father in your eyes.  But, he's still the boy's father,
    and may really be doing the best job at fathering he can.  Who's to say
    how well equipped for fatherhood this man is?  Maybe his BEST is just
    not good enough?  For who?  
    
    It's a terrible position to be in, I'm sure.  You sound like you are
    really trying hard not to poison your son against his father... but, if
    YOU feel one way, how can you expect your son not to reflect your
    feelings?  
    
    I am NOT suggesting you lie to you son... In fact, I am not sure how to
    approach this problem, since I am involved myself in a similar
    situation regarding my own children, who are living with their mother,
    and are starting to reflect HER feelings towards me.  
    
    All I know, is that your child will feel as you do.  You can count on
    it.  Then, at some time in the future, will develop his own feelings
    based on his own experience and in his own terms.  Then HE will judge
    both his father and you.  
    
    parenting can be HELL! can't it?
    
    
    tony

    The latest from the halls of fame and pain of last nights fathers
    rights meeting. A guy has remarried a woman who owns her own business.
    He is so burdened with child suport for the local courts do take in
    both incomes even though the say they do not and (!) she (the second
    wife) and he are about to file bancrupcy for the second wife is paying 
    for the expences of him. Even though he is gamefully employed making
    decent money. He is also obligated to help his step children in the
    second family. Her business is a hair dresser, makes ok money but
    because of the way the child suport guide lines are structured, there
    is no way that either will be able to get out of hock. Gee, the second
    wife has had her business for more than 20 years, brought it up from a
    pair of snips and a comb. Now, because of the way the system is
    structured, they will be snipping out more of their megar lives than
    first expected. 
    
    A second person who is/was self employed with business was forced to
    sell his means of income by a court order. His house was also handed
    over to his former wife. Now because he cannot make his earning
    potential because his means of making money is gone faces jail for non
    payment of child suport. He has tried several times to apeal the child
    suport payments with motions. But because his lawyer who was looking
    after is best interest, did not tell him of the time restraint involved,
    when filing an apeal to court orders he faces the lifes tunes of fair
    and just systems. His lawyer also abandond him for he could not pay the 
    attorney anymore for the business is gone. Sounds like a one sided game
    with only one rule book.
    
    A third man also comes to us. His ex has had his truck set afire, mail
    tampered with by the ex who works in the post office, has been falsely
    arested three times, and more, has recieved a letter from opposing
    councle. In the final decree, a peice of paperwork that was set up by
    both attornies in a closed to him exclusively chamber. In it if she
    objects to things like visitation it is HIS duty to pay for her
    attorney and his. Wow! Great plan! Well he just got her bill last
    night. Opposing councle has added up a heavy handed bill to our hero of
    the real life "War of the Roses". He plans on apealing it, that will
    cost him more to see his kids, and other basic civil rights things. She
    can do what ever she wants and he pays for it. No wounder men sometimes
    do a cut and run. They have no chance with these marked cards. 
    
    Mine, well opposing councle called me on the phone yesterday. She wants
    me to break a rule called rule 35. Wants me to disclose my evidence
    without a formal official letter. I told her that she could see my
    cards in court. Have a nice day! 

   I'm not one of the NCP's who won't pay support, but I am
certainly considering it.  During the eighteen months of
separation, the ex was able to take six vacations, bought
all new furniture, drove a new car etc...   I don't see
any of the money benefiting my daughter in any way.  I had
initiated a custody battle, but dropped it when she offered
me visitation fifty percent of the time along with dropping
allegations of mental cruelty and adultery.  My divorce went to
final judgement on June 20,1990.  She was re-married on June 02
1990.  The dates are accurate. She is a bigamist.  Since her husband
is in the military stationed in Washington D.C., this marriage
meant an immediate move out of state(NH) and visitation would
become non-existent.  She hid this relationship from me and the
guardian et litem for nearly a year.  I would not go to her
apartment or call her because she would say that I was following
her or harrassing her.  I could not afford an attorney so I went
to court asking for an order to keep my daughter in the state
temporarily until I could find one who would take payments.  Motion
denied.  I do not qualify for pro-bono representation and the court
refuses to appoint me an attorney even though I have been a victim
of fraud.  While she's been living life in the fast lane, I've been
sitting at home watching TV.  Seeing my daughter twice in the past
year has cost me over $700.00.  I've considered representing myself,
but I have a strong case of fraud and don't want to blow it because
I don't understand what I'm doing.  My daughter deserves to see me
as a positive role model.  How can that be when this state has
sucked the life blood out of me?  I have no money left for
discretionary spending on my daughter.  Why does the ex refuse to
get my daughter involved in any social activities?  Why did the ex
refuse to get my daughter proper medical care and endanger her
hearing?  Why don't I know my daughter's address?  Why don't
I know her babysitter's name and address?  Why does my daughter
complain that her mother fills her with negative re-enforcement?
Why does my daughter show up with a homemade haircut when her
mother has no talent for that kind of thing?  Why does the ex's
new husband keep company who's dog's name is Reefer?  What
substance was this dog named after?  What is my daughter being
exposed to?  Why did my daughter cry all the way back to her mom's
the last time I took her back?  Why did the guardian's report
favor the ex in the first place when it was me who was taking care
of my daughter daily while the ex was running around with her
new beau ?  Why has my daughter had five homes in the past 24
months?  Why did the ex come right out and tell me that she would
give me custody of my daughter if it weren't for the damage it
would do to her image?  Why does the ex expect me to pay every
medical bill even though it's her fault she moved out of the HMO
service area?  Why did the state attach the laws regarding wage
garnishment to the decree when they mailed it to me and didn't
attach the laws regarding contempt for violating visitation
to it also?   I guess that might give you an idea or two why
someone might want to stop paying support.

    These stories are powerful examples of the travesty our "legal"
    "system" has become...   I know that they are the rule rather than the
    exception.  My personal hot buttons are (a) the lack of computerization 
    in the industry, and (b) the fact that we have instutionalized an
    adversial system (MY lawyer VERSUS YOUR lawyer), instead of trying to
    compromise within the law for the betterment of all..
    
    Does anybody know of any groups that have formed whose goal is the
    reform of the entire legal system, or of any obviously unfair pieces of
    it, as we've read here??   I think its time I volunteered...
    
    Dave

    Dave, 
    
    	You can find them anywhere in the country. There is COPE and FAIR
    and there are groups like Fathers United for Equal Justice. That sounds
    like an oximoron to me! Equal Justice. :) There is a listing in 11.l 
    in the Non Custodial Parents File. And the local in N.H. that meets
    every tuesday nights in the state legeslative building is:
    603-889-3922. These guys take care of not only dads but moms and step
    moms and stepdads and grandparents and etc. The issue is that as you
    pointed out that we pay good money to be represented by honest comp
    attornies, only to find out much differnetly the real life.

  .....And there are guys like George Rauh who does give a dam about
the other guy! When my divorce started I was a wreck but guys like George 
and others reached out to help and most probably kept me from acting
on this anger and frustration in some very negative ways.

You see my wife is one of those @#$##$ who does not pay one dime 
of child support, or rent or anything else, and will most likely
not find a job until the divorce is final, then she will be on welfare
and the rest of you can help pay her way. Yet she has my child by 
default justice. Could she work? You bet.
She has been an office manager, newspaper writer, real estate agent,
and now professional freeloader.

Funny thing, I told her a couple of days ago that if I got layed off I'd be in 
no real hurry to find a job. Her response was...How could you do that to 
your son???

>  Why does the ex's
> new husband keep company who's dog's name is Reefer?  What
> substance was this dog named after? 

Perhaps an unwarranted assumption.  Could be named after a refrigerator
("reefer" is common slang in the food services industry for a walk-in
refrigerator.) 

DougO

   RE .52

   Yes, you could be quite right.  I think I've also heard of
a refrigerated tractor-trailer referred to as a "reefer", but
not knowing does leave you wondering.

    Was in court monday. This time its was my turn. My ex is living with a
    self admitted child molester. I have been trying to ask her to keep him
    away from my daughter. I have had many letters, promises, etc made to
    this fact to no avail. I filled on July 22, an exparte motion to
    restrain him and (unfortunatly) suspend visitations to her. I am not
    proud of what I have done. But if I did nothing I would be setting up
    the minor child for a fall. 
    
    Needless to say. Opposing councle moved up the game time from Aug 19
    to Aug 5 to get a judge that has gross feminist values vs valuing
    differnces. I got slammed left and right with councle objecting to even
    the way I had my hair parted. She, in turn had me sit on the defandents
    side of the court. She pulled the, 'get him angry and confused routine
    on me. But because my documenting was in good form, and my pleatings
    were right on the money. I got what I wanted. The opposing team to post
    a bond to keep the ex's beu away from the minor child. It was a hand
    slapping amount. If IT was a man vs a women in this case, he would have
    had the max set agianst him. 
    
    I am washing my laundry here for a reason. The reason is that I wish to
    let folks know that there are real problems with our court system and
    the way to change this is to stand up to it. To fight hard for what
    little ground you might win. For what little you win for yourself, you win
    big time for all. The laws are interpeted by people who are opionated,
    biased, and sometimes well paid by someone other thans. For children to
    be cast as pawns for the sake of the dollar is the biggest sin since
    adultry, murder, or what ever other vices you wish to call upon it.  
    
    I am well rested at the moment. It took about two hours to hit after
    the game was over with yesterday. I was shaking, sweating, and felt
    like I had falled from a tall building. It was done.

           <<< Note 627.54 by AIMHI::RAUH "Home of The Cruel Spa" >>>

    
>		    ...there are real problems with our court system and
>    the way to change this is to stand up to it. To fight hard for what
>    little ground you might win. For what little you win for yourself, you win
>    big time for all. The laws are interpeted by people who are opionated,
>    biased, and sometimes well paid by someone other thans. For children to
>    be cast as pawns for the sake of the dollar is the biggest sin since
>    adultry, murder, or what ever other vices you wish to call upon it.  

	Reminds me of what a good friend who was a lawyer and is now a 
judge told me once.  "There is no relationship between what is right and 
what is lawful."

    Congrats, George!!  Keep swingin', it's the only way to score!
    
>	Reminds me of what a good friend who was a lawyer and is now a 
>judge told me once.  "There is no relationship between what is right and 
>what is lawful."
    
    Boy, ain't that the truth...    Makes "JUSTice" a 1-word oxymoron...
    
    Dave

    I can tell you from first hand experience.  Don't negotiate, don't pay
    and don't let the ex throw you out of the house first.  Make sure you
    have the upper hand right from the beginning.  Get a restraining order
    against her.  You'll find that once one spouse is out of the house it's
    hell trying to get back in.  Mine threw me out with my then 5 year old
    daughter while her and boyfriend lived in my house.  The police came to
    my house while she was out over night with the boyfriend and gave my
    daughter and I 5 minutes to pack up and leave.  Ex- never even came
    back to house for 3 weeks.  I had to sneak over the house every night
    to feed the dogs which of course couldn't go to the 1 room place my
    daughter and I had, I also fed the fish and the cat.
    
    IMO, if one parent has full custody then it should be their
    responsibility to support the kids.  Ex- can't support herself, well
    she should have thought about that while she was watching "General
    Hospital" and along with dividing the assets in the divorce the
    liabilities should be divided in like percentage.
    
    Bitter you ask?  I'm not bitter but it's a good thing the ex- lives in
    Florida now.
    
    If you have to pay child support, you should be able to visit to take
    the kids with you any time you want.  If you have to pay the mortgage
    then you should have access to the house.  If you have to pay alimony
    then I think the ex- should have to cook and clean your place as well
    as the one you support for her.
    
    
    
    Thank you for this opportunity to vent my anger.
    Don't applaud, just throw money, I need it for the IRS.
    

    Gee, sounds like you to got the bums rush and the short end of the
    stick. You have custody? 

    I didn't get custody.  I took custody.  When my marriage started to go
    sour we went to counseling.  I did everything I could to make it work
    but the ex- was convinced and always threatened to take my house, my
    daughter and my paycheck.  The very first time she said that I kept a
    diary of everything that happened every day for the next 3 years and I
    told her right to her face that I would buried her in court if she
    tried to get custody of my daughter.  The only nice thing about divorce
    court is being able rake all the muck you can muster up and you don't
    have to do it in front of the kids.  The only thing I would do
    different if I got married again would be to keep my money and bank
    account separate from hers.  My ex- spent all of the money for 2 years
    worth of tax payments and every nickel we had saved over the 10+ years
    we were together before I knew it.  I lost everything and the IRS is in
    hot pursuit but I have the most important thing to me.  My daughter,
    she's 8 now.  She loves me and I love her and no matter what else we
    lose that's all we need.
    

    The man who I reported earlier on who was in court with his ex and has
    not gotten child suport since Jan 1, 1991, got his two page report back
    from Hillsboro Sup court. In his case he had file a supreme court apeal
    agaist the superior court ruling. Which is his constutional right. The 
    master claimed this was a frivilous motion! It was his constutional
    right to apeal ANY order that he doesn't think is fair and just. Wow!
    There were about a dozen motions that both camps were debating about.
    Opposing councle felt that these motions were all a waist of time to
    the courts and to councle. 
    
    Motions like:
    
    Child suport, nothing since Jan 1, 1991. Marital master says she
    makes $12K a year and doesn't have to PAY CHILD SUPORT!
    
    When a court order says that both parties pay for half of the med
    expences, dental, and eye glass's. Ex said she wouldn't pay a farthing
    for and he wrote a contempt motion. Frivolus! 
    
    The list goes on. But the basics happened. So guys send your statements
    to the Hilsboro superior court and file!:) 
    
    

    A man who I know has reciently told me that he had tried to keep his ex
    from taking his daughter from the marrital home. The local police came
    and told this man to surender the child to the flee-ing mother. Funny
    the man is to surrender the child to a kidnapping mother? And its
    legal? Her choice to leave the marrital home. Is it the childs choice
    to be kidnapped? To be dragged from one mans abode to another? And
    another? His pictures of his ex having adultrous men walking in and out
    of her apartment were not admissable in court. These men fathering a
    child that doesn't belong to them, whose real father is alienated
    because of flagrent gender bias. 

re .60

   The man spoken about in .60 is receiving no child support
even though the minumum support order by law (NH RSA 458c)
is fifty dollars per month.  His ex abandoned her daughter
and has even turned down visitation stating she has no place
for her daughter to sleep.  His ex is not in poverty and is
living in an exclusive development in southern NH.  The order
states that his appeal on a previous decision is frivalous
even though he is guaranteed the right to appeal by the
constitution.  He has also been ordered to pay any of his ex's
legal fees that result from motions that he files whether
he prevails on those motions or not.  The order flat out tells
him that "He does not have carte blance access to the Court
because he is Pro Se litigant."  ie.  Basically, the court does
not want to see this gentleman because he is very intelligent
and knows his rights and refuses to let some attorney sell him
out to the court system in order to collect a big fee.
Needless to say, his civil rights case will be filed with the
Federal Court within several days.

 There is no doubt about it the court system is hell when one spouse
wants to be mean and vindictive to another. And in divorce court the
odds are stacked against the male to the point that it is abusive to
both the man and his children and he wants out. 

 For me, until my divorce started I was not aware of or ignored 
much about the whole situation. Living in a little house on a tree
lined street and never worrying to much about anything, you kind of
learn to ignore what goes on at the other side of town. Now I am
forced by the courts to live on the other side of town and what I see
amazes me. Many of the children that now play with my son when he visits
are living what can only be described as hell that was noted in the
base note. Some of these children go through life with such violence and
neglect that its little wonder our prisons are over crowded. I have been 
fixing kids bikes ,vcr and whatever for some of the families in these 
apartments and have gotten an ear full of their sad stories.

 The most common thread... had to get married, husband walked out, does not
see the child , pay any support and comes around only when they need money.
Drunk,abusive, uneducated they constantly terrorize the family over and
over again. Yet these people have no money so the courts do not intervene,
there are no guardians appointed. As one mother told me pieces of paper
wont stop my ex when he is drunk! There are no moral issues being debated 
here just all out war and the humility is in using the welfare stamps not
getting them.

The last conversation I had with one of those children all of eight was
how dad (who had left so long ago he had to be told who he was!) had barged
into their apartment and accused the mother of sleeping around. He preceded
to stab his mother in the leg and threatened to kill her and this boys
brother attacked him with a bat but was restrained by the dad's friend.
 What did this dad do, he took the cookie money and left. But its not
so bad to this boy cause dad came back the next day and he was sorry but
did not return the money. 

The courts are full of symptoms, and I'm glad groups like Fathers united
in NH. are looking at ways to treat the causes.

    One other thing about .60. The ex in question is believed to have been
    living in a tenanent that is questionable in nature reguarding the
    neighborhood. But in fact, there is a lead that is being cased that
    indicated that she is living in an exclusive town house. This is why
    she might be refusing to accept over night visitation of her daugher.
    Hopefully she will be cought soon.
    
    

    A friend of mine who lives in the north country of New Hampshire is
    getting the divorce. He called me this morning, telling me that his GAL
    claims to be having a difficult time contacting his suport people who
    will say good things for him. Bottom line, I have made 8 calls and got
    the answering machine all day. Wounder if there is a hidden message for
    the man in question.

    Talking to a man who just had his soon-to-be-ex children out of the
    marrital home and into her new beu's abode. The two children are
    sleeping on a couch in a one bedroom apartment. This show is happening
    in Mass. The chances of her relationship working out beyond 12 months
    are very high agianst her in the odds betting. The children will be
    dragged from one mans abode to another to another to another. Good life
    for the children? Why doesn't she leave them with the father? He does
    want them and will care for them. And is very capable of caring for
    them. The children have their own bedrooms, a back yard, toy chest,
    closets, familly pets cat and a dog. Whats the idea of messing up the
    kids minds with the moving? Why does mom need the security blanket of
    the presence of the children to mess up their minds cause she cannot
    figure out what life is all about? 
    
    From the ages of 3-13 there is a very high risk of children being
    abused both physically and sexually. This is usually by a friend of the
    families or a relitive. Why chance it with dragging the kids around?
    Chances are she will faulsely charge him for such abuses. That is the 
    way it happens these days. Alienating the children from him. Leaving
    them vernable to what ever else is lurking around...

    Latest from the divorce files. A local member of our fathers group who
    was assulted (slapped in the face with some real hurt!) by his
    estrained ex is on their way to local district court. The town she
    lives in is filing in his behalf. Isn't going to cost him a dime in
    attorney cost. Will cost him a vacation day. 

    Or local man who has been asulted by his ex is still waiting the final
    show down with the assult charges. The case was pushed out till Nov. 8.