Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    One point of view from a Vietnam Vet: I got out of the service in 68
    after a tour of duty on a carrier in the Tonkin Gulf.  I didn't have it
    nearly as rough as the guys ashore but I still felt I had risked my
    life by spending six months in the Tonkin Gulf aboard a 'floating
    bomb'. Upon my return home I went to college from 68-72 and watched my 
    fellow students protest the War.  I didn't have bad feelings against
    them... they were sincere and indirectly 'were trying to have saved my
    and others lives', why should I resent that?  Nam had a different
    feel from the Gulf War... the aims were nebelous and I didn't believe
    in them at the time but as other servicemen were was trapped in the
    situation.
    
    How could I expect people who didn't believe in the situation to be
    cheering me when I got back... from their perspective I was part of the
    problem.  So I guess you could say I didn't take it personally. 
    
    There are other vets who feel far more cheated than I do. When I joined
    the service I realized that I might be expected to take part in a war..
    the draft was after me but that didn't change what I would be expected
    to do in the service.  
    
    I did what I had to do... but that didn't mean that other Americans had
    to like it.  Hell, I didn't like it either.
    
    I think the real crime in this is the lack of sufficient support to
    those vets who were emotionally and physically injured by the war.
    
    I was one of the lucky ones... I came out of it unhurt physically and
    with my head still on straight mentally.
    
    Jeff
    So, IMO 'what can you do now'? You have already done it... you
    have realized that the guys over there risked their lives for the 
    misguided Gov. of the U.S. and 'you' all seem to appreciate THAT part
    of it.   Thats enough for me.
    
    Jeff
    
    

    I was in the Viet Nam theater of action from '64 to '65.  
    
    I don't feel cheated.  And, quite frankly, I don't know any vet who
    does  (I am sure some do).
    
    You don't go to war to get treated a certain way when you come home. 
    What happens happens.  Like Jeff said... the folks then were expressing
    their feelings and opinions.  
    
    But, what I _was_ bothered by was the dishonesty of our government. 
    They were telling the folks at home one thing, while the reality of
    what was going on was another.  I think that single fact destroyed the
    confidence citizens had in the government (remember the phrase
    "credibility gap" came from that era).  The result was, many (younger)
    people felt righteous about their position, and when vets returned
    home, they found discord, disagreement, and worst of all, they were
    shunned or ignored.
    
    So, what to do?  
    
    When the vets from this war return... don't shower them with praise. 
    don't have ticker tape parades (except for genuine "heros" that may
    emerge)... and don't ignore them.  
    
    understand that what they do and did was for a purpose, whether you
    agree with that purpose or not.  be open with them... but treat them as
    regular folks, who did a job, and came home to try to start up where
    they left off.
    
    the congress is today considering a big Gulf-war Veteran's package...
    and I guess that's ok... unless it goes too far.  These are regular
    people over there and they will be regular people when they come home.
    
    tony

    
    This is really a different time from 20 years ago..
    
    I really don't know what to think of it. 
    
    What with the glorious news from the front every day, 
    I feel like my generation blew "our war" royally and
    sometimes I think the most merciful thing to do is 
    let it go unmentioned. 
    
    The flag waving and yellow ribboning certainly strikes
    me as an empty gesture though, along with all the "we 
    support the troops" declarations which cost nothing to 
    make...
    
    We are killing thousands of people in a poor third world
    country because they had the bad fortune to have SH in 
    their midst. We are fat and happy in this country, and our
    losses don't amount to a hill of beans compared to those 
    of the Iraqis. 
    
    I sincerely hope that there is some thought given to the 
    thousands of Iraqi orphans and war widows who find themselves 
    on the wrong side and whose plight seems to be forgotten midst
    all the jingoist rhetoric...

    Mr. Gilman, Mr. Bean and Mr. Holt have put it quite succintly and I
    don't know that I could possibly add anything else with the single
    exception of my limited "feelings".
    
    I joined the USMC in 1965 .. not the best time in the world to join the
    USMC but I had my reasons ... I believe that I did the right thing,
    and, to this day believe that I did the right thing.  As MacArthur said
    in his farewell speech "... the world has turned many times since I
    took the oath..." and like Mr. Holt, I'm not sure of what to think
    right now.
    
    

A few years ago, the band I worked in for ten years, had a job
at an out door Party ...  We had no idea who the people we were
working for were, just assumed it was something big.  We drive
for what seemed like  hours to get to this field in the middle
of nowhere, as we pull into the area, all we can see are hundreds
of motor cycles, gruley men and women hagning around them, all with
chaines, knifes, bottles of budwisers...  My wife, sitting in the
seat next to me, simply melted, she says to me "You're gonna
pay for this one Pelkey"  

Well, needless to say, as everyone stopped their cars, and began
to gather, the unified feeling was, "We're dead, That's all there is
to it"

But within minutes, we discovered that this is the Mass Chapter of
Viet Nam Vets.  Hundreds belonging to this particular chapter, all
 getting to gether once a year.

To make a long story short, the evening was a blast, even though the generator
ran out of gas mid way through the final set...  we continued to work these 
events for three or four years complete with a wedding ceremony
where the Groom and Best man drove up on Harleys, black leather
vest, no shirts, tuxedo ties, (a riot, I've got pictures!).  

They were without a doubt the best, most appreciative crowd you could ever 
imagine.  Their generosity to us, and their desire to make us feel a
part of their party, not just the 'band who played there' really
touched all of us more then they realize.

Each party, there would be a span of time, about 2 or 3 minutes, 
when everyone would just  stand together, for the most intense moment of 
silence I've ever been involved with.  Druing this moment, it was if the 
wieght of all their 'lost brothers' (as they chose to refer to them as), 
fell on everyone shoulders.  But at the conclusion of this, the entire 
gathering just let out the most intense war hoop you could imagine, and
the party roared on.  

these days spent with these guys, were the most powerful days I can recall.


I wasn't in Nam, I was a bit too young. Had I been born 5 or 6 years earlier,
I know I would have been there.  But the connection I made with the
Vets who belonged to this chapter, should change forever, any illusion
that anyone has about this.

Like one vet already said, these guys just want to get back to a normal
life, be proud of who the are, the country they fought for, thankful they're 
back, and remember those who they left there.

Thanks for a lesson well learned.

(An outsiders opinion)

      I think the best thing we can do for them is prove we learned
    something from our mistake:  make sure we don't do what we did
    to the service people in Saudi Arabia.
    
    
                                   L.J.

		If you just remember that soldiers fight wars not start
	them, it will be enough for me.

    Thank you all for your replies.  You have read me a lesson in humility;
    it makes me sad in some inexpressible way that you ask for so little.
    
    Part of what Tony wrote crystalizes the era for me.  Quote follows:
    
Note 570.2  FSTTOO::BEAN "Attila the Hun was a LIBERAL!" 
    But, what I _was_ bothered by was the dishonesty of our government. 
    They were telling the folks at home one thing, while the reality of
    what was going on was another.  I think that single fact destroyed the
    confidence citizens had in the government (remember the phrase
    "credibility gap" came from that era).  The result was, many (younger)
    people felt righteous about their position, and when vets returned
    home, they found discord, disagreement, and worst of all, they were
    shunned or ignored.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    The older people, the WWII folks, their experience up to then did not
    include expecting the govt to lie; the younger folks saw the gap
    between ideal and real, between de facto and de jure, in so many
    aspects of our society (including and besides the Vietnam war) that
    they came to disbelieve and discredit any assertion from the
    Establishment.  Sigh, all extremes are at least partly wrong...
        
    I have much to think about.  Thank you.
    
    Sara

    The veterans' comments here were all very moving.  I think much of the
    problem stems from the fact that they were used on two fronts -- the
    military front in Vietnam and the political front at home. Abroad to
    fight the expected enemy, at home to ensure that opposition to the war
    could be defined as unpatriotic and unsupportive of them.
    
    Maybe this is inevitable, particularly in a democratic society in which
    there is a relatively high need for citizen support. But it is cruel to
    put our soldiers in that civilian cross-fire and reprehensible for us
    as citizens to accept the political manipulation that uses them this
    way and degrades our constitutional system.
    
    Sadly, the current virulent outbreak of jingoism shows the same
    symptoms of political manipulation of the military.  We can be thankful
    that the quick military successes of the last month (and the ensuing
    public support of the war) ensure that returning soldiers will be
    treated with proper respect.  However, the misdefinition of
    patriotism as unquestionning support for war will continue to have
    increasingly baleful effects on the political atmosphere of this
    country.
    
    Kit 

 One aspect of a democratic society which is not entirely beneficial to
the military troops is the importance of popular support on the political
machinations which define the boundaries of military engagement and the 
parameters within which each soldier may operate. Given the broadly recognized
tendency for politicians to ride the political trade winds regardless of
their direction, the soldier may find himself at increased risk due to nothing
more than political vacillation resulting from overzealous observation of
the current opinion polls by those who wish to retain elected office. Military
objectives are frequently rendered politically impractical out of fear of
offending the masses. To the individual soldier, such a situation may prove to
be extremely harmful- even lethal. I've often wondered if the death certificates
of soldiers so killed state the real cause of death "the decedent died of
a severe case of political indecision."

 On the other hand, democratic society often has the means to terminate unjust 
or unreasonable military actions through a concerned legislature.

 One thing about the current conflict that bothers me is the extreme rapidity
with which anyone supportive of any level of influence in the Gulf has been
labeled as jingoistic. There is not a whit of difference between those that
label al who do not support the war as unpatriotic and those who label all
who support the war as jingoistic, save their chosen extreme.

 The Doctah

    
    Doctah,
    
     Then is the only safe place in the middle??
    
    David

 Not really. The key is the reasoning behind the positions. Without getting into
an extended philosophical discussion in this topic, let me just say that there
is a qualitative difference between disagreeing with the war because one has
an ostrich-like approach to foreign policy and disagreeing with the war because
one has been taught since birth that their religion does not support violence
under any circumstances. (The same goes for supporting the war because one likes
to see one's country "kick some butt" being qualitatively different than
supporting the war as a clear means to eliminate a malignant despot.)

 The Doctah

In '75 my number was 74. Last week I finally realized what all the ribbons
mean, that each one signifies a person who took the time to care. I cried
because in '75 I did not have that feeling about this country, and I was
scared to go, not to fight, but to go with no support.

I hope my children never have to fight, and if they do, I hope to God you and
I know exactly why they are fighting.

Tom

    re: -1
    thanks, Tom... a nice sentiment, and well said.
    
    there've been a lot of statements in this (and other) strings about
    "jingoism" and false patriotism... as if the accusers could actually
    "feel" the sentiments of others.
    
    i believe that most Americans *do* care this time.  they *are* concerned
    about their armed forces men and women overseas and here at home.  and
    the yellow ribbons are just a token of that feeling.  
    
    it's a feeling we all missed in the VN thing.
    
    thanks, America.  I love you!
    
    tony