Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Before I launch into the Dee Brown discussion, I'd like to clarify a 
few things about my beliefs on racism.   Because, if I don't, I think 
that we will be talking two different languages.

When I do a lot of Valuing Differences work, I notice that there is 
this tremendous resistance to admitting that an act was generated out 
of some racism (or sexism or homophobia or...).  I think that people 
are terrified that, if they admit that there is racism inside of 
themselves, then they are equivalent to a KKK member who lynches 
African Americans and burns crosses.  

I feel sad about this tendency, this extreme resistance to talk about 
our own racism, because it completely cripples efforts to work on 
racism and eradicate it (or, at least, put a harness on it).

I believe that the effects of racism that most people commonly call
"racist"--cross burnings, murders, beatings, name calling, graffitti,
overt discrimination, and overt exclusion--makes up only, say, 25% of
all the actions that have some kind of base in racism.  In my opinion, 
the majority of acts based in racism are subtle, are common, and cut 
across all classes and types of people.  

This is the kind of act based in racism that will switch the topic of
conversation away from employment discrimination against African 
Americans and toward the reasons why Affirmative Action is unfair.  
It's the kind that doesn't let you invite the African American coworker 
out to lunch because, well, you just don't feel as comfortable around 
him/her as you do around other people; people like the ones you grew 
up with; possibly white, middle class people.  It's the type of racism
that creates a TV commercial like the the Nynex commercial: a white
man in a suit walks up to a booming boom box, takes out a sledge
hammer, smashes the box, and a cut to the Yellow Pages ad for "Noise 
Control" flashes on the screen, and nobody picks up on the racism in 
the fact that it was Black music playing on the box (rap) and not, 
say, white music like heavy metal or punk (and, to top it off, they 
play these ads during Celtics games, a team that is continually facing 
charges of racism).

It's subtle stuff.  It's subconscious attitudes, assumptions, and 
connections that are mainly operating toward a space of comfort (which 
is usually found in "people like us," IE "white").  And it happens in 
good people and bad, in intelligent and in uneducated people.  It 
happens in Wellesley, and it happens in Roxbury.

I believe, since we all grew up in a society in which this subtle 
and not-so-subtle racism is prevalent, that all of us have racism 
inside of us.  I have racism in me.  I think that the trick is to be 
in touch with it, to _notice_ it playing out, to bring it from the 
subconscious to the conscious, and to use more choice and good 
judgement about acting on racist thoughts. I believe that if we "catch 
ourselves" often enough, then the racism will errode and will stop 
driving our actions from our subconscious.

I also believe that there is a difference between someone who has
racism in them (99% of the people, in my opinion) and a "racist."  To
me, a racist is a person who accepts racism as an open part of her/his
lifestyle and refuses to work on it.  I believe that I have racism 
inside of me, but I do not consider myself a racist.

So, when I say that the Wellesley Police and the Wellesley bank 
attendants acted out of racism in the Dee Brown incident, I do _not_ 
mean that they hate African American people, that they are KKK 
members, or that they are "just as bad" as KKK members.  What I _am_ 
saying is that there were a series of lightening quick judgements made 
by the police and bankers--judgements that showed clearly that they 
were unable to distinguish between light-skinned and black-skinned 
African American people ("they all look alike!!!"), and that showed 
that full procedures are used against unarmed, young, African American men 
reading their mail in their car, when other alternatives are most 
often used for unarmed, young, white men reading their mail in their 
car.  I am saying that these quick connections and subconscious 
decisions have a basis in racism, in their seeing all African 
Americans as being physically "the same."

This is where I am coming from when I talk about an action being 
racist.


							--Gerry

>                         -< Get the facts, first.... >-
>
>    RE: The Dee Brown incident....According to last evening's news, the
>    Wellesley police were given the info that the bank teller had made
>    a *positive* ID on the subject sitting in a car in front of the post
>    office. This was in error in translation between the bank mgr (who
>    actually was on the phone with the police, the teller, and the
>    dispatcher). The teller said he/she was fairly certain it was the
>    robber. The dispatcher relayed "positive ID".

Well, one fact that you are ommitting is that the police had a 
_picture_ of the suspect in their possession at the time of the 
confrontation with Brown.  I can understand subtle racism in the Bank 
attendent who couldn't tell the difference between the 
light-skinned-hazel-eyed suspect and the dark-skinned-brown-eyed Dee 
Brown, but I can't understand police keeping Dee on his knees for 20 
minutes when he didn't fit the description and when the police had a 
photograph of the suspect in their possession.  I also don't 
understand why flip responses of, "This is standard procedure" and "If 
you have a problem with it, see our Police Chief" were thrown at Brown 
and why a "We're very sorry about this mistake, Mr. Brown.  We 
received a positive identification from the bank across the street.  
We're sorry for causing you this inconvenience" wasn't offered to 
him.   (It took two days and a public town meeting before anyone 
apologized, and it was never to Dee Brown's face.)

Would the officers have had a similar problem identifying a young, 
white male when they had a picture in their custody?  Probably not.  
Would they have offered an apology to a white man?  Hard to say.  If 
he was well dressed and appeared to be respectable, I would say that 
they probably would have apologized to him.  For example, if it was 
young Larry Bird who had just arrived for the Celtics rookie camp, 
I'll bet that there would have been an apology _parade_!

>    ger - how can you claim this to be racism ??? Do you know for certain
>    that neither the bank mgr, the teller, nor the dispatcher were black ??

Because lightening quick judgements were made that were way out of 
whack with reality.  Because racist attitudes and assumptions that we 
have seen play out so often appear to be paying out here ("They all 
look alike," "He's young, Black, and in a fancy car; how can he afford 
that?", "We don't owe him an apology").

It's a moot point whether the people involved were African American. I
know that Spike Lee will disagree with me (he believes that African
Americans by definition cannot be racist; I say that by definition
they cannot be systematic racist oppressors), but I think that African
American people can act out of racism toward other African Americans. 

Hey, they grew up in this racist society, too.  They grew to believe a 
lot of the racist messages that were given to them.  For examples 
of this, just check out some of the Reagan/Bush nominees for high 
offices who were African American.  

Also, I am very familiar with gay men who are homophobic, who believe
hateful things about gay people, and who continually act out on that
self-hatred.  It's called "internalization."

>    Given the circumstances (told of positive ID and the fairly high 
>    probability that any bank robber could be armed) I see the Wellesley
>    PD's actions as justified. 

For the first two or three minutes, I agree with you.  However, having 
a picture of the suspect, I don't understand why Dee wasn't released 
within a few minutes.  Instead, he was made to kneel, cuffed, and 
allowed to kneel there for 20 minutes.  Then, no apology was offered.  

I think that he has a clear-cut case for a law suit.

>    It's easier to apologize (as they have done) than to
>    have to attend (or be the guest of honor at) a funeral.
    
Why is it that African Americans only get apologies if they are the 
Number 1 draft pick for the Boston Celtics, and then they only get the 
apology indirectly and a week late?

The anwer is subtle (or not-so-subtle) racism.



							--Gerry

    Gerry, I get the feeling that the time Mr Brown was forced to spend
    on the ground has been stretched with each telling of the tale.
    You claim 20 minutes...the news accounts claimed 4 to 5 minutes.
    Since the suspect was innocent, this seems excessive. Had it been
    the actual robber, would there have been as many howls of complaint ??
    
    RE: suspects picture thepolice had....was it a mug shot (full front
    /full side) of the alleged perpertrator, or was it a bank surveilance
     (sp?) camera photograph ??? Did the robber enter the bank masked or 
    unmasked ??? If he was masked, it may be a bit difficult making a 
    positive ID of an unmasked suspect within a few seconds.
    
    Again, I believe it better to err on the side of caution. I do not see
    how anyone that is not a police officer can or should attempt to second
    guess the actions of those that were there. 
    
    Paul C.

 On what happened:

 The police thought they had the right man. They pulled their guns, and got
him out of the car. The frisked him. At this point, there is no reason to
believe that he is a threat to them in any manner. But they kept him kneeling
on the ground. It's a rather typical power play. Cops are no better than any
other people. They like the feeling of power. So if they get to make some
poor b@st@rd feel like crap while they scratch their heads about if it is even 
the right guy, tough beans for him. I find it to be an abuse of power, whether
they did it because he was black or whether they did it because they are high
on the power.

 On the standard excuse for any overreaction by the police "It's policy":

 This is an extremely limp excuse, IMO. If the policy allows the police to
abuse suspects, then change the F'in policy. And if the police insist on
keeping their policy, then we tell them that OUR policy is to fire chiefs
who allow such a policy to exist. Simple as that.

>I do not see
>    how anyone that is not a police officer can or should attempt to second
>    guess the actions of those that were there. 

 This, to me, is the ultimate copout. I know of a man who was _suspected_
of being a drug dealer. The police broke his door down at 4am, and immediately
shot his vacuum cleaner. Then when he woke up and jumped out of the bed to
see what the heck was going on in his house, he was shot and killed. And this
entire action apparently was according to approved police procedure. (BTW,
they found less than a joint's worth of pot in this "suspected drug dealer's"
tiny run down apartment. The man did not even own a car, but was somehow
a big time drug dealer- you do the math.) It does not take a policeman to
recognize that this is an intolerable situation. People do not deserve to be
executed in their homes with their children at their sides because one
officer had a problem convicting their brother and has an axe to grind. the 
police work for US. We are the bosses, collectively. When they do not do
what we want them to do, we have not only the right to see that they correct 
things, but also the obligation.

 The Doctah

    For 23 years of my life (I'm 27) I grew up in the military - I never had 
    a close white friend until I was 14.  BTW - I'm white.
    
    Most people in the North refuse to admit there's a racism/hate problem
    here since it ONLY exist in the South.  That's a good one!!  I invited
    a friend and her date out to a nice, somewhat pricey, restaurant 
    and received the WORST service ever.  Why?  My friend's date was black.
    I overheard the waiter discussing *our* situation to another waiter.
    At least in the South you know what folks think.  Here you don't.  We
    were also labeled hookers because we were white (white chicks, black
    pimp)!!!  
    
    Let's move on for the moment.  What about American Indians??  These
    folks are so low on the hate-color chart that nobody even considers 
    what's happening, and has been happening, to their culture, language
    and way of life.  They are still hounded for practicing their own
    respective religions.  How many times do we, everyone of us, make 
    derogatory comments about Amer. Indians and we don't even realize it.
    My grandmother passes herself off as a Mexican because they weren't
    treated as badly.  How about the racial beatings that occur and nothing
    is ever done about it?? What about the politicians who try to prove
    which one of them is the better Indian slayer??  This isn't something
    from social or political archives.  This is happening now ... in the
    80's and 90's.  We sold them something that was already their's ....
    and we still are.  
    
    Cartoons, dolls, etc - all white.  Color books, reading books - all
    white.  That's not the way I remember it and I'm sure that's not the
    way others do either.  The organization for childrens' television
    isgoing to see an end to this farce.

>    Gerry, I get the feeling that the time Mr Brown was forced to spend
>    on the ground has been stretched with each telling of the tale.
>    You claim 20 minutes...

No, I don't claim this.  He did.  I read it in the Globe the day after 
the incident.

>    Again, I believe it better to err on the side of caution. I do not see
>    how anyone that is not a police officer can or should attempt to second
>    guess the actions of those that were there. 
    
I only hope that this never happens to you.  But, then again, if you 
are white, there is a better chance that it won't.

Be careful.  What goes around, comes around.  And sometimes it's 
wearing a badge.


							--Ger

    RE: .7  Gerry...I guess the different media outlets had different
            "facts" concerning the time factor Mr Brown was on the ground.
    
    So much for facts....
    Paul C.

RE: .7 Gerry
    
    >I only hope that this never happens to you.  But, then again, if you 
    >are white, there is a better chance that it won't.

    you know, some would say that THAT remark was racist itself....
    
    Back it up or clam up Gerry.  That may be true in remote areas or once
    in a blue moon in a major city, but it is still bull puckies.....
    
    >Be careful.  What goes around, comes around.  And sometimes it's 
    >wearing a badge.

    hmmmm are you condoning a black officer of the law treating a white
    "suspect" improperly?  It could be read that way.....
    
    

							--Ger

    RE: .7  Yes gerry, I am white, and like the author of .8, I feel
    that your reply *DOES* have overt racial overtones.
    
    What would have been your opinion, if it was not Dee Brown in the car,
    but the actual robber. Police, ever fearful of upsetting anyone, send
    one officer to respond. He politely approaches the car, no gun drawn,
    and is shot dead on the spot by the driver. What about the rights of
    the police to live to see tomorrow, huh ???
    
    Paul C.

>    RE: .7  Gerry...I guess the different media outlets had different
>            "facts" concerning the time factor Mr Brown was on the ground.
>    
>    So much for facts....
>    Paul C.

I'm quoting Dee Brown, not the police.

Just to tip my hat to what you are saying, Paul, if I was being 
embarrassed like that, 2 minutes would _definitely_ seem like 20 
minutes to me.  It might be helpful to interview witnesses rather than 
to rely just on the police or Dee Brown's testimony.

From the Talking Heads, "Facts all come with points of view/Facts 
don't do what I want them to."

I agree with you.

							--Gerry

>    hmmmm are you condoning a black officer of the law treating a white
>    "suspect" improperly?  It could be read that way.....
    
Clearly, no.    

							--Ger

>    RE: .7  Yes gerry, I am white, and like the author of .8, I feel
>    that your reply *DOES* have overt racial overtones.
>    
>    What would have been your opinion, if it was not Dee Brown in the car,
>    but the actual robber. Police, ever fearful of upsetting anyone, send
>    one officer to respond. He politely approaches the car, no gun drawn,
>    and is shot dead on the spot by the driver. What about the rights of
>    the police to live to see tomorrow, huh ???
    
You people are incredible.  You are choosing to ignore the numerous
stories of differential treatment of African American people by white
police officers.  My point about "goes around/comes around": if you 
ignore injustice long enough, it comes around to affect you in your 
own life.  I do not "wish it" on anyone; I merely observe it as a fact 
in my own life (I'm bitten by the things I ignore for a long time).

I meant nothing more, nothing less.  Racism, eventually, affects all
of us, and ignoring it (passing it off as "standard procedure") won't
prevent that. 

Of _course_ my comments have "racial overtones," because I am
listening to stories of racial, differential treatment.  I have never
once said that I am supporting this treatment; I am only paraphrasing
what I read.  (For more information, check out the articles in the
Globe about Wellesley and about the racist graffitti in Milton; Dee
Brown's case was not unusual for white police officers and innocent,
African American suspects.) 

Regarding the "what if it was the real robber"?  Then there is no 
issue, right?  My point has _never_ been that the actual techniques 
that they were using were not standard procedure for someone who is 
being arrested for robbing banks.  My point has _always_ been that, 
without subtle racism, the police should have been able to tell in a 
minute that they had the wrong guy, that he didn't come close to 
matching the description (e x c e p t   t h a t   h e   w a s   B l a c k!).

They all look alike, right?  (_That's_ the racism.)

							--Gerry

    I guess no one wants to discuss his or her own racism here, just
    far-removed incidents.
    
    Briana

>    I guess no one wants to discuss his or her own racism here, just
>    far-removed incidents.

[I'm taking a chance talking about my racism in public, outside of 
therapy, a workshop, or a core group.  Please help me to process this 
ugly stuff, and try not to club me, okay?  Your help is much 
appreciated.]
    

The clearest indication of my racism is in my love life.  Sometimes, 
when I am attracted to African-American men, I feel the tug-of-war 
between my sexual attraction ("Go _talk_ to him!") and 
my...discomfort.  I hesitate.  I stall.  (Like Tim Hutton did when 
meeting the father of his fiance, in that recent movie he was in with 
Nick Nolte.)

What am I doing about it?  Well, I'm a bit conflicted.  In all other
areas of my life, I can "just spend more time" with more African
American people to get rid of the stereotype and prejudice operating
deep within me.  In this area (dating), I don't think that it is fair
to go out with an African American man to "experiment," to "work on my
racism." I don't think he should have to put up with that (and how can
I get close to him without him noticing my hesitation, my stalling, my
discomfort?).  Or is that just an excuse of mine? 

I don't know.  It is something that I want to work on.

There are other signs of my racism, but I don't want to work on them 
here.  I want to find a supportive and safe place, where I know that I 
won't get clubbed for the ugliness in me or in a place, in which we 
have all contracted to work on hard issues like this.  (For instance, 
in a core group....)


							--Gerry

    
    	Hi all,
    
    	bonnie, you have taken the words right off my finger tips. ;-)
    
    	To me, removing racism requires continuous attention to my 
    	deep seated teachings, both cultural and personal.  I've had 
    	to face many of the misuderstood teachings of my childhood to 
    	understand what I'm 'reacting to' in my everyday encounters as 
    	an adult.  This is not easy because the axiom of race relations 
    	(in this important case) generates emotional reactions to 
    	simple everyday situations.  The complexity of MY life confuses 
    	me daily!  
    
    	I once had a very learned prejudice against Hispanic people, 
    	yet, untill I was ready to confront this 'value', I would only 
    	react irratonally.  Now, I've found that my personal *isms are 
    	only a tool to a greater learning, through personal cofrontation 
    	and understanding.  But, It's not easy or comfortable!  
    
    	Ger, your note 514.1 speaks volumes.  
    
    							Kelly
    
    	p.s. Briana, what are your feelings?
    
    	

    Gerry:
    
    I haven't been a co-counselor for about 5 years, but this was once a
    good place to work (in safety) on our own racism.  I don't know if you
    know anything about Re-evaluation Co-Counseling, and, really, I'm not
    really sure I don either now, since I've been away for 5 years.  What
    it was, was a system in which people were taught, in classes, to assist
    each other to "discharge" feelings which kept us from living in
    "present time," and from thinking and loving freely.  Individuals made
    appointments with other people, and they shared the time 50:50.  One
    person would act as "counselor" for the first half, and as "client" for
    the second half.
    
    It can be a very powerful place to grow.  What I found was that
    co-counselors would give other people as much time as it took to work
    through whatever was holding one back.  Sometimes very powerful hurts,
    such as childhood sexual abuse, take years to "discharge."  Grief and
    pain, by the way, is discharged primarily through crying.
    
    RC believes that when racism is first taken into the human soul, it is
    taken in with pain.  Sometimes people can remember the first time they
    became aware that someone else was hated for a characteristic such as
    skin color or religion.
    
    I've long been aware of my own racism.  The first time I really recall
    being aware of it, I had done a first interview for a job opening we
    had in the Legal Aid office I worked in.  I interviewed a man with an
    Afro when afros were new.  I said about him, "He just doesn't have what
    it takes to do the job."  No one called me on this.  He was hired, and
    he was perfectly capable of doing a good job.
    
    I once said casually to someone else, "You know, there are people who
    have never known a noble human being."  Well, this friend said she had
    never thought about that.  I've been lucky to know a few people who
    genuinely do not believe that one human being is intrinsically better
    than another.  I still remember meeting a man 25 years ago in Carmel,
    California.  His name is Aziz Yazdi, and I remember feeling that he was
    wonderful and that I was his equal.  There are people of whom one feels
    that he or she is wonderful, and I could never be like that.  I think
    the first quality is rarer.
    
    Briana

    I think the Dee Brown incident says more about the unreliability of
    eyewitness identification than it does about racism.  A young, blond,
    and rather handsome white man in my town was arrested several years
    ago after a bank teller decided that he was the one who had robbed
    the bank several days before.  The local paper showed photographs of
    the arrest all over the front page, including one of him sprawled out
    on the road.  His home and his personal life were investigated
    thoroughly, and the police actually were able to build up a fairly
    good circumstantial case against him.  What eventually got him off the
    hook was that the real robber did a repeat performance at the same
    bank, and the teller realized her mistake.  The robber was eventually
    caught; he looked nothing like the man who had been wrongfully
    arrested.
    
    I agree that police often get very carried away with their authority.
    Probably many people are attracted to police work because they desire
    to enjoy that authority; it certainly isn't the money.
    
    Dee Brown probably would have suffered much more if he had not been
    relatively famous.  
    
    Craig
    

    I had an incident a few years back when  I was at a show in Atlanta for
    DEC. I had walked across the street from the convention center (which
    was on a dead end street tha bordered the train yard) to get something
    to eat. When I was walking back (there wern't too may people around) I
    noticed about 5 black teenagers (15-18ish) walking in a group towards
    me. Instant panick! I figured I would be mugged. They were loud and
    fooling around like teenagers do. They just walked by, they were going
    someplace else and had no interest in me. I was relived to say the
    least. But I have always remembered that incident. It was my racism
    towards black men showing. I think this what Ger is what saying.
     	I always try now not to judge black teenagers/men that way. I also
    think part of this reaction is/was created by the media. Naturally they
    show/report all the violence on the news every night. Maybe it is
    subtle conditioning. 
    
    Steve

    This note seems to be concerned with racism toward black men only. I
    guess the rest of us don't count. Just for the record, all races
    including black men can be racist. I am indian ( not pure) so don't try
    and lay a guilt trip on me.
    
    
    			Wayne

>    This note seems to be concerned with racism toward black men only. I
>    guess the rest of us don't count. Just for the record, all races
>    including black men can be racist. I am indian ( not pure) so don't try
>    and lay a guilt trip on me.
    
Perhaps you'd like to add to the discussion instead of just beating 
the rest of us up for working on our racism toward African Americans.  

As you imply, this topic is open to discussion on all forms of racism.
Perhaps you could enlighten us with your experiences concerning other
types of racism.  At least, feel free to do so.  I, for one, would be 
very interested in reading about it.

							--Gerry

>Perhaps you'd like to add to the discussion instead of just beating 
>the rest of us up for working on our racism toward African Americans.  

 I read it as an observation, not an indictment. I certainly would not
characterize it as "beating up" anybody. 

  The Doctah

    The other evening, my wife and I were walkling home from a restaurant,
    when we ran into a group of about ten black teenagers. This isn't
    really remarkable; the neighborhood is integrated, and we're three
    blocks from the high school, so groups of teenagers do NOT translate to
    gangs or anything else threatening. Most of the kids were in high
    spirits, but one girl audibly muttered as we passed: "That's why I hate
    white folks. That's right, you heard me, I hate all white people." Her
    mostly-male companions kind of wrestled her in the opposite direction,
    and we parted company.
    
    My wife and I didn't even discuss the remark. Part of it is a great
    tolerance of teenagers in general; we have three, and our tolerance
    muscles are very fit. I also felt somewhat at a loss as to what to say.
    My step-daughters' father is black, and our girls have black features
    but very little experience where that matters. We know that they'll be
    facing the issue more and more in the future. In the meanwhile, we
    mostly avoid the topic. Finally, I felt some sympathy for the girl who
    made the remarks. I don't think hers is a helpful attitude, but it's
    pretty natural, I'm afraid.
    
    With my step-daughters, I try not to heavily emphasize the situation of
    American blacks. Instead, I point out the damage done by treating any
    people stereotypically. Hmmmm: that's not accurate. The fact is my
    step-daughters are the ones who righteously decry the stereotypical
    characterizations. The fifteen-year-old, in particular: she's at the
    high school, and her friends include native Americans, Soviet emigres
    Christian and Jewish, and members of high-school-specific oppressed
    groups: the skaters (skate boards), metalheads, etc. Her indignity is
    refreshing.
    
    - Hoyt

    
    as an aside on the subject of stereotypes try asking yourself what
    racial group the label "asian" brings to mind.
    
    In America it appears to default to "Chinese"
    
    In Britain it defaults to "Indian" (more accurately South Asian - it
    			includes Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Sri Lankan
    			people.
    
    In other areas I've seen it to indicate other groups.
    
    Asia ranges from Turkey in the West to China, Mongolia, Korea and Japan
    in the East, from the Soviet Union in the North to Sri Lanka, Indonesia
    and the Philipines in the south. Yet we all seem to have a small
    blinkered stereotype in our minds of what makes a person "asian".
    
    Then try "European" - since Europe extends up to Lapland in the north
    and to the Soviet Urals in the East there is a fairly wide spread of
    ethnic groupings within Europe too...
    
    /. Ian .\

    Basically I hate racism...there is no need...I will put the poem in
    here in  a sec that I wrote about the subject !
    
    
    Tracie.

                                 -< "Colours" >-

    
    
    The People fight before they talk
    The people see colours        
    The people see barriers, that arn't really there
    The imagination controls      
                                  
    People say they hate, without really knowing
    Because of the Race, because of their skin
    People don't have faith anymore
    They act with revenge that they've never known
    They act as if it were a sin  
                                  
    If only everyone was blind    
    If only the sounds of their voices the same
    Would be different if colours were not seen
    
    
    I think so!
    
                                  
                                  
    
    
    Tracie.   Comments welcome !

         Hi Tracie...good to see ya in this conference!  As for your
    poem...on the nose,my dear, on the nose!
    
                                             Capt. Scott