Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I dated a long succession of extremely high-powered women, all of whom
    definitely had six-digit potential. By and large they were athletic,
    too, given my fantasy: "Hey, the kids have gone down to the park, what
    say we go out to the driveway and play one-on-one [basketball]?" Most
    were Jewish.
    
    I married a non-athletic shiksa [sp? i.e. non-Jew] who was NOT an
    athletic and was barely making a living. Why? Because we spent about
    thirty evenings together and I suddenly realized that I had enjoyed
    every single one of them! Now we've been married six years, and I've
    enjoyed about 2200 evenings!! [And she's tripled (nearly) her income
    and we play tennis a couple times a week!]
    
    - Hoyt         

      Why do "men" marry? I can only talk for myself, and I guess the
      reasons for marriage are not dependent on the gender, but on the
      emotional scenario of each individual at one moment in time...

      As for myself...well, love is a pretty good reason. When you feel
      as attracted to a person as you've never felt to anyone before,
      that's the time when the prospect of sharing your whole life with
      one person thrills you thoroughly...  And for a person "blowing"
      your mind, it takes a lot more than "love at first sight".  In my
      case, good looks alone don't keep me interested for more than a few
      days, and for that it must be an awesome good-looking woman. No,
      it's discovering that each new side you discover in soul-to-soul
      conversation fascinates you, it's the feeling you can tell
      everything, open up and be yourself. When the mask of the first
      encounters starts to fall, and it feels better and better. Feeling
      totally accepted, and realizing you love more the more sincere your
      partner is, being open and getting recognition in return...talking
      about experiences, being able to talk about all your deepest
      yearnings, your fears...that's the platform for a total "shock to
      my system"... 

      I've seen it quite often that women seem to be attracted to the
      well-mannered, neatly dressed and humorous young engineer. They
      picture someone who's  always doing meaningful cultural things and
      taking them to some fine dinner; but then they look quite surprised
      when I suddenly put on my favourite dungarees, enjoy a simple bread
      and cheese dinner just as much as yesterday's french cuisine and
      wrestle around with my favourite dog on the lawn, kissing him on
      the snout for good measure. What a shock to them! Yes, there aren't
      many women around a man can really feel REAL with...I mean, there
      aren't many men one can be open and be a close friend with, too,
      I'm not criticizing women!

      Running on the edge of falling for stereotype-rubbish, my
      experience seems to indicate that many women have quite rigid ideas
      of how a husband is supposed to be, and being *always* reliable is
      one of the most important ones. When the man lets the little kid or
      the funny lunatic in him show, they view it as suspect and try to
      change that. Women often look at us guys a bit like at houses, they
      look at the "framework" and analyze what they could make of us with
      some heavy working and renovating...they are aware that they have
      normally more power in a relationship, and use it to discipline the
      man. Ah, but that's setting the path for marital disaster...

      Oh well, I'm drifiting from the original subject...

      Why do men marry? At least, the first time, when they are young and
      dumb (uh-oh, this sounds like poor 22-year old Paul..), they
      marry because they are crazily and deeply in love. No time for
      analyzing, no need for questioning. It's just a decision based on
      faith alone.

      Next time, I'd be a wiser man. The reasons would be...love,
      honesty, tolerance, realizing the relation is the platform for my
      inner growth, knowing that person will always listen to everything
      I have to say, knowing that the other persons feelings will always
      enrich me. Somebody who realizes that giving me free room and
      accepting all parts of my personality would be the things that
      will keep the fire burning.  

      And if you ever happen to see a poor young chap heading for the
      church with that benighted, dumb smile on his face...TALK to him!
      But it won't help...
                                        
      ...Paul

I married 16 years ago.  It was a logical step after 5 years of romance
and courtship.

girish

    Some marry the woman because she's pregnant.
    Seems like the honorable thing to do...

    re. .4:
    
    Yes, a friend of mine who was a randy rascal pupped one of his
    innumerable summer flirts when he was 19...Spanish macho pride (and
    the fact that the girl was from an extremely wealthy family in Norway)
    dictated marrying as the only honourable action. Although I was a
    teenager myself, I was absolutely sure that that would be a terrible
    disaster.
    And you know what? They have four (!) daughters right now, and he has
    developed into one of the nicest and tenderest persons I know since
    then, even though he was the ultimate swine back then. His marriage
    is rock-solid, it seems.
    Jeez, life is odd. Some of the marriages that seem absolutely perfect
    run out of energy somewhere along the way, and some of the ones that
    seem to be born in desperation and benightment grow and become
    seemingly indestructible.
    It just shows there is not ONE correct reason for marrying. Love gives
    no reasons, and it never gives a guarantee...
    ...Paul                        

I wonder what the similarities/differences are when two men decide to 
become life partners.   I can't really speak to it, since I've always 
been single.  I just wonder how much gender and gender roles play into 
it.


							--Ger

... or two women.  I once had a long talk with a lesbian woman I know who had
married her partner, and I was struck by how similar her experiences and
emotions were to those I had experienced in heterosexual relationships.  It
showed me that there's really not a lot of differences there, and that men
and women really go through much the same thing when choosing a life partner.

I think too often we assume that there must be something unusual or different
about how "men" think from how "women" think, and that these assumptions
are usually invalid or just a result of social conditioning.  We're more
alike than many people would think.

					Steve

	re .8

	Amen !

    re .7  I have long thought that a romantic relationship involved the
    same emotions whether it was man/woman, man/man, woman/woman.  
    

    
    I won't dispute that the feelings in those relationships can be the
    same as in a hetereosexual relationship, the fact is just that they can
    NOT marry..."living together" and "marrying" aren't the same thing, and
    the subject was why men decide to *marry*. Why sealing your feelings with a
    certificate? What triggers this decision? 
     It's a question that in my opinion is taken a bit too lightly, which
    explains the stunning figures...33% of all couples that marry for the
    first time get divorced, 50% if they give it a second try (which REALLY
    surprises me...), and, the most impressing fact: after 8 years of
    marriage, 80% of all women would NOT marry the same man again, but
    surprisingly only 20% of the men said they wouldn't marry the same
    woman again after the same time. Really impressing (ah, those figures
    are for Germany, I don't expect US ones to be too different, though...)
     The reason for divorce? In most cases, the inability to communicate in
    time. Seems that few persons value the ability to communicate at the
    beginning of a relationship, or when it comes to make up their mind
    about marriage.
     Again, why do men marry? Ask 100 men that are about to marry, and 90 of
    them will mumble things like "...logical thing to do...", "...We've
    been together for such a long time...", etc, as if they would succumb to
    some external pressure, just showing they don't give it too much
    thoughts.
     An enquiry out of pure curiosity to all married or divorced co-noters:
    Who raised the question of marriage, she or he? And what lead to the
    decision?
     In my case, my wife who's-about-to-move-out raised the question
    initially, and, although I remember I had a shadow of a doubt, I was
    all for it then. She asked first, but from then on I took over as it
    had been my decision. 
     So after this reply, the score of asking for someone's hand is:
    
                          United Women of the World  -  1
                          Puzzled Chaps on Earth     -  0
    
    ...Paul

    I met my wife on Christmas eve 17 years ago. She corrected the way I
    said a word. (She was a Literary Criticism major/English and ED minors)
    I defended myself and she I didn't have to but people's perception of
    me would be different if I corrected my misused English. We argued and
    laughed and she broke a date on New Years Eve to just sit a home with
    me. We CLICKED!!!! She prodded me to get my degree at night and make
    more of myself than I ever would have without her. We decided that we
    always wanted to be together and we've been married for 16 years.
    
    We're still best friends.....
    
    Ken
     
    

    
    Re: .11 - who instigated the question of marriage?
    
    My husband presented me with a beautiful diamond ring one night and
    said "This is yours if you'll marry me".  It was a total (but lovely!)
    surprise to me.  The reason being that he had been engaged before to a
    girl who, along with her parents, pressured him in to getting engaged
    and the eventual split was fairly messy.  So, although I had hoped that 
    we would get married one day, I had never mentioned it as I thought maybe
    for him it would be "once bitten, twice shy".
    
    When we went round to tell his parents his mum took him to one side
    (she told me a few months later) and said "Are you really sure this
    time?" and he said "Mum, this time it was *my* decision - no pressure".
    That said it all really!  
    
    Sam
    
    

    I got married because I fell madlessly in love with my wife and we
    shared alot of the same values with one another.  The basic premise
    that God and family are important, and if these are looked after,
    everything else will fall into place.  Well, 5 years and 2 living
    children later, we are still crazy about one another.
    
    
    Peace,
    
    Mike

    
    	Mike Z. really said it all.
    
    	For me, there really wasn't any specific reason. On our first
    date, everything just felt right! We felt as if we'd known each other
    for months/years. It was actually kinda strange. And Lynn wasn't the
    so-called girl of my dreams. I always wanted to marry a brunette
    with mediteranean features. Lynn is blonde, and worst of all,
    came from New York. 
    
    	Now, fourteen years later, we still have a fantastic marriage.
    The two dreaded white-males (ages 1 & 3) we have cut into our time together
    but we still relish all the moments we have. 
    
    	An aside, while dating, some people suggested we were simply not
    right for each other, at all. Glad I didn't listen.
    
    							Hank

Re: 11 The divorce rate is ~66% in the U.S., twice as high as Germany or the U.K

Mark (who can't contribute much else to this topic *sigh*)

    
>    I won't dispute that the feelings in those relationships can be the
>    same as in a hetereosexual relationship, the fact is just that they can
>    NOT marry..."living together" and "marrying" aren't the same thing, and
>    the subject was why men decide to *marry*. Why sealing your feelings with a
>    certificate? What triggers this decision? 

You are correct.  We gay people are not allowed to legally marry each other.

However, we are allowed to promise to spend the rest of our lives 
together in a monogamous relationship.  Also, increasingly these days, 
same-sex couples are going through "commitment ceremonies," sometimes 
sanctioned by certain churches.  At least in that respect, 
there are more similarities than differences.

No?

Even though we are not allowed to marry each other by state laws, our 
decisions to enter life-long partnerships aren't taken lightly.

							--Ger

    My wife an I married 20 years ago. She was almost 19, I was just short
    of 22. I had dated may girls (not too many women) with not too much
    luck. My wife and I had known each other for 2 years prior to us
    dating. I dated many of her friends and even a cousin who was infatuated
    with me thou 4 years younger than me.
    	I guess I finally came to realize what I really wanted was a happy
    relationship as opposed to a really beautiful woman or an airhead (I
    had dated some of each). My wife knew the 1st time she met me that she
    would marry me!
    	We married and moved to NH. Our 1st year went down hill. My wife
    says I lost interest (sort of). We survived until our next big crisis;
    our twin girls died (both) at birth after 4 years of marriage. 
    Our marriage survived because we focused ourselves in a different
    direction, our new land and house. Our sons came along and things got
    better. 
    	We do not have an all encompassing romantic relationship. It is
    comfortable. We are friends besides man and wife. This is a key. Bad
    times WILL surely come as will good. Your expectations of life and
    marraige and your common goals will go a long way.
    
    After 20 years
    Steve

	Good topic !  I'm on my 3rd (and LAST !) marriage.  Goldy Locks
	ain't got a thing on me ... 8^).

	When I married the first time I was 19, fresh out of high school, 
	married my high school sweetheart of 3 STEADY years !  She had 
	dated a lot before me, I had dated very little.  Call it puppy
	love gone haywire.  This marriage ended shortly after I found out 
	I wasn't the father of our daughter.  I'm a good sport, but gimme
	a break ... we divorced after 3 years ...

	I think I got married the 2nd time because I just felt better being
	married.  There never was the "click" I felt before.  This union 
	was more sexual than anything else, but that won't keep you happy 
	in the long haul, I guarantee it.  My emotions and feeling went to 
	zero eventually.  And after our son (2 yrs) died following open 
	heart surgery, I called it quits.  By then the only thing we were 
	good at was p*ssing each other off - it had got to be an art by 
	then.  We divorced after 6 years ...

	Enough of the doom and gloom !  I found my "soul mate" totally by
	accident.  We were both married (unhappily) and worked together
	everyday.  We had good conversation, shared a lot of common ideas
	but not all.  But the main thing is, we started as FRIENDS.  No
	secrets.  As luck would have it (and not all of it good) our paths
	drifted toward each other after 3 years of friendship.  We've been
	married over 2 years - we have a 14 year old son (hers by previous
	marriage, ours from here on out).

	I married her because:
	
	A>  She let me be myself, no games, no "hoops" to jump through
	    in order to please her.  I can be honest, with no repercussions.
	B>  I can trust her.  We've both been through some lousy relationships
 	    so we know when we've got a good thing.
	C>  She doesn't try to "mother" me.  
	D>  We can always talk things out.  We know that we'll argue sometimes,
 	    but that doesn't mean we love each other any less.  Besides, making
	    can be a lot of fun too.
	E>  We enjoy each other's company.  The idea of having his/her rocking
	    chairs on the front porch when we're 80 sounds great.  'Course
	    I plan to have her siting with me in one of 'em !   ;^)
        F>  She's a beautiful person - mentally, physically, you name it !
            I love her ways and it would kill me not to have her ... soul
    	    mates.
    
	Scary ...
                  

    I was 22 when I married Peggy in 1963.  She was 24. 
    
    I was a sailor.  She was a fundamentalist preacher's daughter.
    
    I was a loner.  And alone.  And I decided I'd like to "settle down".
    
    I met her in a bar (is there a story there?) with her friends.  Two
    months later we were married.  Two years later we were divorced. 
    
    We re-married after two more years (1966)...and never were really happy.  I
    married her the second time because she said she loved me and needed me
    (though it was she who got the divorce) and I needed to be loved and
    needed.  And besides, we had one child, and didn't she need a daddy?
    
    Several times the marriage nearly ended, but it wasn't until 1988 that
    I finally had the guts to jump ship.  (see mennotes #224)
    
    I met Brenda in SINGLES shortly after my divorce.  She and I became
    close friends over the network and telephone for six months before we
    actually met.
    
    We clicked immediately.
    
    My decision to marry her was as much one of intellect as of the heart.
    
    I've never been happier!
    
    tony

 Congrats!