Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    
    Nothing -  like my "nice guy" just fine. He really is a sweetie, what
    I like most about him, is that he doesn't do the talk show circuits
    saying "look at me, I'm a nice guy".
    
    Those guys on the show yesterday rubbed me the wrong way. If you're
    nice, you're nice. If you aren't be treated right in a relationship -
    get out!
    
    I think the problem might be, is that women find that these men arew
    willing to be treated as door mats. That doesn't make them a nice
    guy - it makes them a door mat.
    
    
    Ah, Oprah - where do you get the ideas for your shows?
    
    bonnie

    .0
    
    Perhaps you ought not look for your answers about the nature of men
    on the Oprah Winfrey show and "all the magazines."   They generate
    too many artificial, superfluous issues about men; these issues get 
    a lot of attention, but usually mean nothing.  Oprah and her audiences 
    spin their wheels talking about these non-issues over and over and over 
    again -- and they go nowhere fast.  As a man, I get exhausted just 
    listening to these shows, run by mostly agitated women, talk about how I 
    am supposed to be, and what I am supposed to feel, think, do, and say.
    
    Paul
     

    What I consider to be my kind of nice guy....
    
    Kind, considerate, dosen't expect you to be his slave (but it's ok to
    take care of your man if that's what you like doing! e.g washing,
    ironing etc.)
    
    someone who can make the effort to remember things that are special to
    you...your fav meal, wine, birthdays, friends
     etc....
    
    
    someone who is prepared to share things and people, take you out with
    his friends and be proud of you...and enjoy mixing with your friends
    to...not saying that you have to live in each others pockets
    though...everyone needs space....
    
    someone that's sensitive when it comes to those special needs 8*)))
    
    That's enough for now !
    
    Tracie.

    .3
    
    Wow!  If you ever find a guy like *THAT* who meets all these superhuman
    criteria, I'll give up women and go out with him!   ;)  ;)  ;)
    
    Paul
    

    
    
    .4 
    
    You leave my man alone! :)
    
    bonnie

    
    	"That's just the way it is"
    
    	Unfortunately, no matter how unjust or wrong it seems, .1 is
    right: if you're willing to be treated as a doormat, the best of
    people will end up treating you that way in time. Nevermind those 
    who are somewhat less than the best of us...
    
    	My guess as to what happened to the men on that Oprah show was
    that during the course of their relationships, the subtle message
    of the willingness of these men to be, er, "stepped on" was played
    out, picked up on and acted upon. Perhaps all on a subconscious
    level.
    
    	I mean, what, the one guy proposed *after* he was jilted already?
    "But I'm such a nice guy!?!", wasnt that a *nice* thing to do -
    let her go about doing whatever so she could get it out of her system?
    Anyone with an iota of self _something_ would not let themselves be 
    walked all over like that, despite how much he loved her. Same is true 
    for the guy listening to the phone calls and wondering "But what about 
    me!?!"
    
    	I think that being ultra "nice" may be a coverup effort, because
    these men are scared, insecure and absolutely sure that if a woman
    ever knew their true self image, they'd be rejected. They fail 
    consistantly because there is something detectable in their niceness, 
    a slight insincerity perhaps, something that just doesnt feel right about
    it, something that just doesnt add up.
    
    	It's tough standing up for yourself. You figure logically that
    by being nice, what other choice does someone have except to
    reciprocate? Wrong!!! They'll figure out that you're nice no matter
    what they do and not like you for allowing that for yourself!
    
    	Joe
    

I just finished reading Carrie Fisher's "Postcards from the Edge."  In 
it is a great description as to why a woman is drawn to jerks, and how 
hard it is to re-orient herself toward a "nice guy."

It's an interesting perspective.

I can relate.  Unfortunately, the sexy swagger in a man attracts me,
but it is most often present in "jerks."   Like Carrie Fisher, I need 
to get used to the idea that I am lovable and that I deserve a nice 
guy.  

...but it's hard to re-orient yourself away from a dysfunctional 
situation that is...well...very _hot_ and sexy.  It means being very 
strong about saying "no" to short term pleasure.  (And there's never a 
guarantee of long term pleasure with a "nice" guy, either.)

<END_OF_RAMBLING>

							--Ger

    1) Being a nice guy doesn't mean putting up with everyone else's B.S.
       Just that you don't dish out the B.S.
    
    2) Being a noce guy doesn't prevent *her* from being a *bi&ch*.
       Not all women are "sugar and spice and everything nice".
    
    3) What a woman will tell you she wants and what "flips her switch"
       are often two radically different things.
    
    4) People, both men and women, have a hard time breaking away from
       what is "familiar".  Ie. they know how to deal with an *jerk*
       because that's what they've dealt with most of their life.  They
       have never dealt with a "nice guy/gal" and don't know how, therefore
       the situation makes them uncomfortable.  A they know how to deal
       with a *bad* relationsip and are more comfortabel with it because
       that is what is "familiar".
    
    fred();

    I didn't see the Oprah show, but recently had a "nice" guy break
    up with me, after one and a half years of a serious, committed
    relationship.  I was devestated and am just now after 2 months
    getting my act together.
    
    I didn't get any straight answers from him about why he ended the
    relationship, and probably never will.  He just said that we
    always focused on my problems and never his.  Unfortunately, he
    never spoke up and pointed this out to me. So I'm left feeling
    like I never had a chance to act differently or help him out
    because he never asked for any help in anything.
    
    I've found out from a mutual friend he has plans to go out to
    L.A. to pursue a career.  He used to vaguely mention it but
    we never discussed his need to do this.  I guess he was trying
    to be "nice" and not make waves in the relationship....
    
    I'll never really know...but I think next time I will look
    for someone who can speak up and confront issues instead of
    being NICE all the time!
    
    -Karen

    One thing about nice people - are they being nice because it's a
    veneer, or are they really NICE.....it's like asking "is he flattering
    me with a hidden agenda, or is it just something he felt and then
    vocalized?".  It's hard to tell the difference sometimes...
    
    Also - I think a lot of the women on the show probably thought of
    "nice" men as "doormat" men, the whimpering simpering man who wants the
    woman to wear the pants and make the decisions and run their lives. 
    That's not my definition of nice.  I'd say nice men are considerate of
    others' needs in conjunction with their own, and give as well as take
    (at a fairly even rate).
    
    I don't want a man who keeps me guessing, or who makes me wait for his
    calls or his arrival - a man for whom I'm a whim he may or may not
    indulge in.  That's what I'd call a jerk.  
    
    I think there's plenty of nice men out there who aren't doormats,
    aren't fakes, and aren't jerks.  It just seems they're all married!
    (and with good reason, I suspect)
    
    -Jody

    RE: TV viewing
    
    These shows DO present difficult problems...
    
    SOLUTION:   Get a thick, trailing philodendron, maybe two or three,
                and place them all on top of the TV, so that the large
                leaves hang down in front of the screen.  Watch all your
                favorite shows (with the sound turned as low as it will
                go).  The green leaves will completely obscure the
                screen, and your eyes will be rested looking at the
                green foliage.  The plants will get lots of light from
                the glowing screen behind the leaves.  You can still
                snack, drink beer, be a couch potato, etc, but you
                never have to wrestle with the problem of jerks vs.
                nice guys...
    
                You can even meditate, which relieves stress from reading
                controversies (and dumb advice like this) in notes files 
                at work, etc.  You will fall asleep just as often, and 
                wake just as rested.  
    
                Ahh!  You think that if you did this you would not be
                able to "keep up" with the latest TV-gossip!  No problem:
                Just choose the longest line at the supermarket and read
                the headlines of all the tabloids and magazines in the
                racks.  You have to stand in line at the supermarket
                anyway, and now you have a reason to read that stuff...
    
    Bill   ;-)         

    
    I happened to catch part of Oprah last night too. My reaction to
    watching the five 'nice guys' on stage was that none of them (with
    perhaps the exception of one) were all that 'nice'. They rubbed me the
    wrong way, and more than one of them had a stuck up air about being
    'such a nice guy'. They were in such a rush to tell the world how nice
    they were that they constantly interrupted each other and had no
    respect for allowing the other person to speak.
    
    It was ironic... nice until some other guy beside them is perceived as 
    being nice? :-) I think their whole bit was 'appearing' to be nice 
    as an act to 'get chicks'. Just my reaction from the program...  they
    weren't anywhere near a role model for who I'd call a 'nice guy'. Nor
    would I'm imagine them to be ideal or even successful partners in an 
    equal relationship.
                  
    -Erik

Re: .11

>    I think there's plenty of nice men out there who aren't doormats,
>    aren't fakes, and aren't jerks.  It just seems they're all married!
>    (and with good reason, I suspect)

No they're not, no more than all the nice women are married.  But they don't
tend to be flashy, so you don't notice them (or pass them over because
they're not "exciting" enough.)

When people, men or women, stop looking for a fantasy and open their eyes,
they're often amazed at how easily they can find someone nice that they
can be truly happy with.

				Steve

    re: .13
    
    Well, rather than that, when I was in college, we didn't bother getting
    a TV - too stress inducing with all that bad NEWS on all the time....
    
    We watched the fishtank instead!
    
    -Jody
    

    re .6, Joe_Jas-
    
    Wow, I even agree with what you said.  Those kind of guys, nice but who
    let themselves get walked on, are out there.  And women who will do
    that walking, sure, they're out there, too.  Amazing, but users have
    certainly always come from both sides of the gender line, and men like
    you described were used.  Nobody can pretend it doesn't happen.  
    
    As it happens, I've been there.
    
    But there are places to go from there.  Nice men who get used don't
    have to learn bitterness from it.  Not all people will treat them
    badly.  Not ever again do they need to permit anyone to demean them in
    such a way.  A silent decision to carry self-esteem inviolate from the
    actions of others means that nobody will ever interfere in their 
    self-definition again.  And it sure beats bitterness, or the lack of
    ability to trust someone else.
    
    Then, there are the guys who never learned to be nice in the first
    place, never learned to value the human component of their lovers; who
    see their sexuality as a power relationship.  They exist, too.  They're
    the ones who are easiest to see, hardest to understand.  I lament their
    role in our mutual grief.
    
    DougO

         I feel no sympathy for these "nice" guys who are hurt by women.
    If you're going to have any kind of relationship with another human
    the chance for pain always exists.  The chance for being used does
    not.  You can never be used without allowing it.  Those people who
    do aren't "nice", they're just sad.
    
    
                                    L.J.

    
    	My girlfriend reminded me of a letter from a man in the "Letters
    from Men" chapter of the book "Letters from Women Who Love too much".
    Buy the book and read this to learn more about "nice guys"; the author's
    analysis is quite a shock!
    
    	Being continually "nice no matter what" amounts to an emotional
    manipulation of the person you're being nice to. It's not far above
    bribery! One tries to alter the feelings of another person - in their
    favor - by being inappropriately nice to them. The feeling slighted
    that I mentioned earlier comes from the realization of that; "These cards
    dont come from your care about me, they're given so I'll think you're
    "so wonderful"!"
    
    	Joe

    concurring with Karen, .9)
    
    I have the same story.  He was nice, we were engaged, blah blah.  But
    he wouldn't tell me what bothered him in our relationship.  I didn't
    get feedback.  When he did find the courage to speak up, it was that he
    wanted out.  We got back together for half a year or so, and then he
    became a workaholic and a recluse.  That was that, and we haven't
    talked since.  He was a truly nice guy, I'm still a little bummed out.  
    
    Perhaps some really nice guys just can't communicate for fear of
    causing problems.  Then, it's too late.  I don't know.  
    
    ---BECCA

    Someone who withholds his feelings and makes a straight face when a
    situation does not suit him is being FALSE.
    I can't understand how you can call such a person "nice". Maybe an
    attentive, well-mannered liar. But never ever "nice"...
    ...Paul

Re: .18

Isn't this the same "blame the victim" mentality that is so often used
against women who are subjected to abuse?  If not, what is the difference?

			Steve

	If most people would just get on with their lives...and
	stop trying to find hidden agenda's in everyone they
	encounter...and stop trying to analyze every move
	and word that someone says.....they might find a bit
	of happiness.

	I would love to have the money that has been made
	from all books written on how to improve ones life,
	how to tell if someone is lying, how to spot a nice
	guy/gal,etc, etc, etc........


	kits

    I don't want to be nice.  I want to be sexy.
    
    -- Mike

    > I don't want to be nice.  I want to be sexy.
    
    	More often than not women are intelligent enough to want both...
                                             
    	-Erik

    	> .25  Bravo, about time someone understood the difference
      between sexuality and being nice.
    
    	j-l

A woman friend told me that she was more turned on to Richard Gere's sadistic
role in Internal Affairs,  than seeing his nice guy role in Pretty Woman.

regards,

girish