Conference quark::mennotes-v1

< Note 492.0 by FRAIS3::LIESENBERG "Kierkegaard was right..." >
                             -< About goodbyes... >-

Paul,


		I know how you feel for I have faced similiar situations,
	it hurts to know that what you will say will hurt your partner and
	that, no matter how well you say it, they will not be able to fully
	understand why you must leave.  You want so much to hold them and
	give them some words of comfort to ease some of the pain but there
	really isn't anything you can say to make it better. 
		The only advice I can give you is to do it as gently as
	possible but don't vacillate and give conflicting signals, if it's
	over make sure they know it's over.  The kindest cut is that which
	is quick and clean.  I don't envy you and what you must do and I
	hope that the pain is minimum for both of you but remember that the
	only good thing about a broken heart is that it can heal with time.

							Jim

    re:  FRAIS3::LIESENBERG
    
    WOW!  I am slowly getting my faith restored in men.  Do you mean you
    can be honest and say what you feel???  I sincerely respect you and
    encourage you to never change!   
    
    Unfortunately, though, I don't have any advice to make the goodbye
    easier, except the fact that done honestly, you will find that later on
    when her hurt is somewhat eased, you two can and will be friends.
    
    Good luck....
    
    
    -Dotti.
    

    I've had a similarly (painful) experience. Some thoughts come to mind:
    1. You are undoubtedly a sincere and honorable man. Yor're feeling
       gulity for realizing that the marriage is no longer fulfilling your
       needs. After reading note 491, it sounds like you did all the giving
       and were kept on the defensive for a long time. No resource
       (including our internal resources to give and love) are
       inexhaustable. You simply ran out of resource and your wife failed
       to do those things that would have recharged the resources.
    2. Unlike our parents, we live in a world which is constantly painting
       images of what life and love should be. We are always comparing
       ourselves to what we understand that image to be. Most of us, I
       think, find our lives on the short end of the comparison. (The grass
       is greener....)
    3. You cannot force a continued relationship with your wife, expect to
       hide the fact your forcing it and not have it chew you up (read be
       come less honorable, harder and perhaps even mean spirited)
    4. I'm getting long winded... just let me say that you strike me as a
       sincere individual...just follow your instincts. 
    
    

    Uh-oh! So there are people that understand what I do is because I try
    to be honest to myself, and that I'm not about to do something mean in
    a precipitated and dumb manner...it's odd that how your own "friends"
    don't want the situation around them to change and are unwilling to
    accept changes you go through...that's why for the moment I only have
    two persons I can talk to without feeling criticized.
    Throughout the weekend, being scared as I am, I started wishing back
    the old days, I started missing the enjoyable little things of a
    relation I know I'll miss...having always somebody to talk to around
    you, having always somebody to comfort you when things go wrong, having
    always a warm body near you in bed, having always sombody you can give
    all your tenderness to...I'll miss it, I know, and it will get very
    bad, and suddenly I felt like if I had to try it again. But no, no, no!
    It's not love, it's just a good habit! You just feel so safe in
    marriage...it's tough to get out of it.
    And suddenly I understand why most men need another woman that forces
    them to break up, they don't feel the danger of being alone then, they
    just jump from one warm bed into the next one, they feel safe, and of
    course that makes things easier...
    Whereas women have the strength to break with a person when the
    relationship isn't satisfying anymore, they don't need the guarantee of
    having another person waiting for them.
    Is this true?
    ...Paul
    

    Why do you have to hurt her?
    You say she is the best woman, has no mistakes,
    Do you know that MARRIAGE is for ever, not for just a little while and
    if I get bored, just move on...
    You would not HURT her if you stick by her, and instead of throwing
    what you have, away, start to rekindle what you already HAD,
    marriage is like a nice fireplace in a winter night... you enjoy a warm
    fire but it is necessary to add a log now and then to keep it
    going.....
    Think about that and if you start rekindling you might end up having a
    GREAT, STEADY AND PERNAMENT fire... from what you said in base note,
    it seems that you have everything you need.
    

    This sounds like a tragedy.
    
    If you truly deep down wanted a divorce you would not have such
    ambivalent feelings about your marriage and your wife. If you truly
    deep down wanted a divorce you would not write so compassionately,
    tenderly, and lovingly about the woman you want to leave. 
    
    I don't think you know the depths of your feelings. You are about to
    destroy something that is very dear to both of you, and irreparably
    hurt both you and your wife. 
    
    I suggest you both go to a marriage counselor. At the very least,
    please have a cooling off period before wrecking both your lives.
    Please discuss things with your wife, no matter how painful if may. 
    Don't do something rash now that you will regret the rest of your life.
    
    Bruce

    Did you write the basenote after lying in a tub of hot
    water for a few hours?  Passivity is too mild a word.
    I hear soft splashing sounds, hear sweet violin music,
    and it's so misty in here that I can't see anything.
    
    You can't ask other guys to tell you how to kick the
    woman you love in a nice way, so that you won't have
    to watch her cry and have your heart broken by it!
    There's nothing wrong with the hearts in this picture,
    but there's a lot wrong with the gut.
    
    You have to reach into your own guts and find the words
    to tell her its over.  OR, you have to reach into your
    guts and put some fire back into the marriage!  OR, you
    have to go see a counselor and find out what's wrong
    with your gut!
    
    bill

    OK, so here's the gut:
    
    I think it's over. I tried it long enough. I'm 27 and I guess I'll get
    another chance of giving love to someone who understands better who I
    am and accepts me that way. Dot.
    
    So...no violin music this time, if it's the words that bother you:
    
    Guys, how do you kick a woman you loved and still like in a nice way?
    
    I guess this note got a little side-tracked, for what interested me was
    to know if I was right in my view that we men have problems when it
    comes to ending a relationship, or generally in actively expressing
    every feeling that is going on inside them. And if it's right that the
    normal male strategy is to let it slide and let the woman end the
    relationship when it becomes unbearable. And if it's really women that
    end relationships in most of the cases.
    
    Sorry for focussing too much on my personal situation, my intention
    really was to start a more general discussion on the subject "goodbyes".
    
    P.S. re -1: Yes, you got the picture, I really need violin music,
    passionate feelings and vows of loving eternally when it comes to love,
    why not? But you are right about me being passive, but it's the
    batteries that really start running a bit low when you're thinking,
    re-thinking and herdly getting any sleep for too long a time...
    ...Paul
                
    

    Paul, thanks for the clarification about the intent of this note.  I
    now feel like I have something to offer to the discussion.
    
    In my experience, yes, men have a very difficult time ending
    relationships.  I haven't had vast numbers of meaningful relationships
    over the years, but I've had enough to say that, without exception,
    when the man wanted to end it before I did, the method used was crude
    and very hurtful.  In several instances the last date was warm, loving,
    and fun, with no indication that a bomb was about to be dropped.  Then
    nothing.  No phone calls, no letter, no communication.  Nothing.  My
    phone calls weren't returned.  Letters left unanswered.  Obvious
    confusion and concern on my part left unacknowledged.
    
    Fellows, that hurts!  It hurts far worse than hearing straight out that
    the relationship is over; it was fun while it lasted; now good-bye.
    
    The sad and bitter conclusion I've reached after a handful of this type
    of ending is that men (speaking in general terms; if the shoe doesn't
    fit, don't force it on) talk a great game of being tough and brave, but
    when the situation demands bravery, they're chicken.
    
    (Oh, yes, this ability to say good-bye also applies, in my experience,
    to male managers having to make a hard decision about dismissing a poor 
    performer.  In every such case I've witnessed, the manager seemed
    unable make a clean cut.  There were so many loose ends then he was
    done that it isn't any wonder the person asked to leave was confused
    about the reasons.  Did he like my performance or not?  He seemed to,
    but then he fired me.  What am I supposed to think?) 
    
    I agree with the title of your previous note, Paul.  On the whole, men
    need to get tougher when it comes to ending something that's over.
    
    Karen
    

    re .9)
    I agree, but some of the real courage comes earlier in the
    relationship, when HE should be telling you what bothers him, so you
    can ammend behavior or not be deluded for so long.  (I don't me You as
    You, personally, I just mean you, the female, and him the male).
    
    
    --Becca

    Well, she ended it on me, three months ago.  Like a bomb.
    
    She had asked to "go away for awhile by myself, to think
    about things."  I thought that was a great idea because
    after a couple of months of being totally bewildered as to
    what had gone wrong, and why she was acting so distant,
    I was ready to try anything.
    
    Well, she never said where she went, when she would leave,
    when she would return, etc.  After two weeks she finally returned,
    met with me the next day, and told me it was over.  I learned
    later that she had spent the two weeks out west with the new
    guy.  How's that for getting away by yourself to do some thinking?
    
    A week or two later, when I tried to get her to do some "ending
    work", she said "No.  You just have to get over it."  When I 
    asked her how she felt about us, she said her feelings were 
    locked up in a box.
    
    So let's not pin this kind of betrayal onto guys.  This woman
    seemed to have no trouble at all scraping me off her plate once
    she found out what the next course was.  I feel sorry for the
    next guy!
    
    And now I have to stop writing about this, because the rest of
    what I have to say would get this reply deleted by the moderator. 
    
    Bill     

    Re. -.10 -- Agreed.  Sometimes it takes lots of guts to tell someone
    you love that there's something bothering you about the relationship. 
    But, as they say, no guts, no glory.
    
    Re. -11 -- Bill, it sounds like you've been hurt, and understandably
    so, by her actions.  (Rhetorical question, you don't have to answer
    here: could she have broken it off with you in ANY non-hurtful way?)  
    I'm certainly not forgiving her (or women who act like this) by my 
    comments in .9.  But since this topic was about men and how they end 
    relationships, I didn't go into my experience with woman and how THEY 
    end relationships.  Guess I didn't see this as a note to compre men to 
    women so much as an exploration of the male methods.
                                                
    Karen

Re:        <<< Note 492.0 by FRAIS3::LIESENBERG "Kierkegaard was right..." >>>

>    And I love her like you love your very best friend

I suppose I'm confused, but what more does one want with a spouse than 
this?

Maybe the physical passion isn't there but the key ingredient certainly 
still seems to be...

Bob

>    The sad and bitter conclusion I've reached after a handful of this type
>    of ending is that men (speaking in general terms; if the shoe doesn't
>    fit, don't force it on) talk a great game of being tough and brave, but
>    when the situation demands bravery, they're chicken.

 Bingo! Many men, despite the tough exteriors, dislike intensely being the
cause of another's pain. Men don't like to see hurt they cause. Frequently they
run away from the situation to not have to deal with it anymore. Hence the
unanswered letters, unreturned phone calls. They can't deal with it. 

 What is needed is the ability to withstand the emotional impact of hurting
someone, while making a clean break. A clean break is harder to make initially,
but is far better in the long run.

 I think Karen really hit this one on the head.

 The Doctah

    My wife and I divorced this past June after 15yrs of marrige.
    
    Our 15th anniversary was about a month before the divorce.
    
    I gave her a card with a flower on the outside and wrote this 
    message on the inside of the blank card;
    
    "Our journey is almost over, our time together at an end.
     
     Endings always involve us in pain.  But anything which enters
     our lives and transforms us is to be celebrated.
    
     Thank you for as long as it lasted...
    
     Your soon_to_be ex-husband,
    
     Gary"
    
    She was the first to say "I want a divorce", but it was I who divorced
    her.  One of us had to do it. 
    
    It was sad, but it was best for both of us.
    
    Gary 

    But why the hell are we just so chicken-hearted?
    
    I mean, what difference is there in the education process that makes
    men afraid of accepting feelings and women so much more self-confident
    emotionally?
    
    Is it because we men are supposed to be more rational and therefore
    stubbornly try to ignore the fact that we do NOT have control over our 
    feelings? Is it because we are supposed to be "stable" and "reliable"
    and we don't like to picture ourselves as persons able to kick a person
    we once loved out of our lives? Is it because we are educated to be
    damnably superficial, viewing our role in society as making a nice
    professional career and being good dads, and not as following our real
    inclinations? Or is it just that we are afraid that the maelstroem we
    have discovered inside us is going to mess up our lives and consume us?
    Why do we have that urge to feel "safe"?
    
    And, why are most women different? Why aren't they afraid to accept
    their feelings, no matter what pain or difficulties this implies? You
    know, I can still recall the secret admiration I had of my earlier
    girlfriends, even at tender ages, when they told me "Listen, Paul, I've
    got to tell you something...", and I thought, hell, this is exactly
    what *I* felt and couldn't or just didn't want to articulate. Or when
    the wife of a friend of mine filed in divorce, and she left a beautiful
    house and a wealthy husband behind and went to live from her own modest
    salary in a one room appartment, and when I visited her once she told
    me "I just didn't love him anymore..." and I thought, oh yes, this
    takes courage.
    
    Maybe it's too that our mothers told us guys that women are "tender
    flowers" and we would have to treat them very carefully. And, little
    gentlemen that we are, we take this so seriously that we are afraid of
    hurting them in any way. But in fact they have more courage and guts
    than we have, emotionally speaking.
    
    Hell, but why?
    ...Paul

    - how do you say goodbye?
    
    - who says goodbye in most cases, is it he or is it she?
    
    - How do you hurt a person so bad without hating yourself?


    1)  It's finished, over.  Not debatable.
    2)  Dunno.  Doesn't matter.
    3)  Look forward to having the burden lifted.

    -dwight

    Paul, when you asked your wife if she would go with you for
    some counseling, and she refused and went off and got her own
    individual counseling,  did you feel any need to go off and 
    get your own individual counseling?
    
    Bill

>                   <<< Note 492.18 by VAXUUM::KOHLBRENNER >>>
>
>    Paul, when you asked your wife if she would go with you for
>    some counseling, and she refused and went off and got her own
>    individual counseling,  did you feel any need to go off and 
>    get your own individual counseling?

	Bingo!! I have a friend who is on his third marriage, and can't
figure out why the previous two seemed to fail in much the same way. My own
experience is that we continue making the same mistakes until someone is
kind enough to help us learn from them. That is the business of couselors,
helping us to learn from our mistakes (my opinion). The business of
marriage counselors is the same, with the added responsibility of training
us to become compassionate counselors with our spouses. I am frequently
amazed at what a friendly and cooperative world this is, but only after
much work on my own destructive attitudes and patterns of behavior. Had I
not resolved many of MY OWN problems during this marriage, I
would go on to act out the same problems in the next close relationship.

Best wishes.