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Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Title:Topics Pertaining to Men
Notice:Archived V1 - Current file is QUARK::MENNOTES
Moderator:QUARK::LIONEL
Created:Fri Nov 07 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jan 26 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:867
Total number of notes:32923

491.0. "So sad the song..." by FRAMBO::LIESENBERG (Kierkegaard was right...!) Thu Aug 23 1990 10:44

    I've looked through these notes and have witnessed that many of the
    situations described are posted "by a friend" or be the moderator, for
    the sake of anonimity. It could be true. It could often very well be a
    protective lie. Why we men can't bear with admitting publicly "I had an
    wonderful affair, I gave it my all, but it didn't work" is something I
    could never understand.
    Anyway, I'm not going for that. It's my personal experience, and I've
    got nothing to be ashamed of. But I'm in the middle of a situation that
    hurts very bad, but it's somehow revealing, and I'd like to know if
    someone's gone through a similar thing, so I'll share this part of my
    private life with you.
    As often, the story starts with marriage. I married young (22) while
    still being a student. I honestly thought I had found the only person
    on the world I could share everything with, and I wanted to do
    everything so-much-better than my parents, who just held together
    "for the sake" of my younger sister. I knew she was very demanding, and
    I was convinced she would always bring out the bast in me.
    You know, at the beginning of a relationship, romantical person that I
    am, one is willing to sacrifice a lot in order to meet the expectations
    of the partner in life. In a certain way it's normal to have your
    friends saying "that woman's keeping you away for us", we've all heard
    that before, you absolutely WANT to rather spent time woth her than
    with some of "the guys". In our case, she didn't like most of my
    friends, she could barely bear with one or two of them. So most of my
    long year friendships broke appart. But I took the gamble then,
    figuring out it was just a matter of time until we made some new
    friends that didn't remind her of my past.
    On the other side, she was from a wealthy family, but was too proud to
    ever ask for a  few pence. So am I. So I worked part-time and studied,
    bringing us through. No student is wealthy, and she wasn't used to it,
    and she didn't hold to her occasional jobs for longer than a few
    months. She couldn't cope with our economic situation, and first
    conflicts arrouse. I can remember going to decisive exams after
    quarreling with her half the morning. But I figured out that this
    problem would solve itself when I finished my studies.
    And than I had my M.Sc., and I started working, and money came in.
    Indeed this nasty problem solved itself.
    But a new one was around the corner. I had always seen that we couldn't
    get together with friends. Everytime I invited somebody, afterwards
    hell broke loose for she said I had behaved most shockingly, not taking
    the conversation to her, or whatever. EVERY time. And I swear I behaved
    properly, for I worshipped her, and I cared, also in public. 
    If a woman was in that group, and I talked to her just a few words, it
    got worse. An innocent smile became an obvious flirt to her. A look
    into someone else's eyes was me falling in love with another woman for
    her. No matter if the other woman was married to a friend of mine.
    Again, I gave in, and I didn't even looked at other women, for I was
    sure I had the only one I could love. I gave in, again, you see?
    A stable time arrived, one could say. Seldom meeting friends, for I
    knew it would bring trouble, just very few parties, etc. I accepted I
    had to live in her little save world, and I was patient, saying to
    myself time can do magic...
    Indeed, she has been improving in that sense. Of course she still
    doesn't trust me an inch when it comes to other women, although I swear
    I never had anything with another woman since I've been with her. I had
    no need to. But she just takes one day now to forgive my "impossible"
    behaviour when we're under people. And that although everybody thinks
    of me I'm the perfect gentleman. But there were rays of hope, and she
    said she was trying very hard. 
    For now she is finishing her studies, and she's found fulfillment
    there, and it shows.
    But....oh God...somwhere along the way the last year I've run out of
    energy. It wasn't as exciting anymore. I had the impression of always
    being the giver and often getting an emotional thrashing in return.
    Don't get me wrong, I can't say she wasn't tender, oh no, she demanded
    a lot, but she could deliver a lot, too. But she just was too extreme
    for a l-o-n-g time.
    I've been trying hard, telling myself it's the woman I've loved the
    most in all my life, the one I married, but even better now. I love
    her, but it's not that passionate flame anymore, and I need it, I grew
    up in a latin country, you know...
    So somewhere a long the way love ran out of energy. And, a few weeks
    ago, I met another woman. It was innocent enough talk, we just
    understood very, very well from the beginning. When I said A she
    followed with the B, and she impressed me. She's very good looking, for
    that. A few days ago we went out. We drank wine, had a lovely dinner,
    talked about our view about relationship, and we just understood what
    each one had to say, it was like magic. After a looong dinner, we went
    to my flat (my wife is on vacation) and just sat there, talked and
    listened to music. I guess it happened then. I felt that eery feeling
    when you're looking into someone's eyes, that longing for nearness and
    tenderness I hadn't had in a long time...it COULD have happened, the
    "let's-do-IT" look was in each other's eyes, but I wasn't sure, fool
    that I am. I said to myself she had drunk a bit too much, and I didn't
    want to take any advantage from that, more than that, I told myself I
    wanted her to make love to me (excuse me, moderator) without anything
    clouding her senses, I wanted to give so much tenderness...I really
    wanted to blow her mind, that's it.
    We slept in separate beds. And, curse it, the next morning we didn't do
    the necessary talking. A few pleasanteries, and we went our way. Sh##,
    when talking to her the next time the same day, she kept distance,
    and I realized something had gone terribly wrong. I don't know what.
    But I don't understand, how can someone who one day wants to make love
    to be distant the next day? She's divorced, by the way.
    I guess she's afraid of influencing my decision towards my marriage.
    She doesn't want me to fall in love. And therefore she doesn't allow us
    to be friends...I don't understand it. Talk to me, talk to me, I'm
    thinking, I can go either way...
    And NOW...what am I to do? I've discovered I love my wife like a
    sister, like someone I want to protect and keep any harm off, oh, I
    don't want to hurt her, but I think I must. She knows how I've felt for
    the last months, being honest is one of my principles. I discovered I
    COULD very well fall in love with another person, though I don't know
    if I've done yet. I feel like when I was 16 years old (now I'm 27), but
    I've learned since than that loving is more than liking...
    But...hell...so many memories...seing a lifetime of dreams splattered
    in the wind...how do you know you'll ever find the love of your life
    again? Maybe it's just once... But I want to feel alive again, oh, I
    think suffering and crying is better than letting your days pass by in
    a monotonous routine dictated by a sense of responsibility towards the
    people around you. 
    Let me tell you...it's torture. But I think the moment of truth has
    finally arrived, I have to break up and leave my wife behind, not for
    the new woman I've found, no, I think I owe it to myself. But it hurts
    sooooo bad...
    ...A true romantic
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
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491.1P.S.:FRAMBO::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...!Thu Aug 23 1990 11:028
    I've re-read my note, and I wished I had taken a bit more of time to
    correct some typos and so on, for I've written this instead of going
    for lunch...as you can guess, my appetite is somehow affected by all of
    this...
    Bear in mind this ain't my mother language (I'm a European co-noter),
    and be understanding with any shortcomings in the expressions I used.
    Hope the baseline of my message is not impacted by that.
    ...Paul
491.2YUPPY::DAVIESAGrail seekerThu Aug 23 1990 12:3637
    Paul,
    
    Just a couple of thoughts...
    
    I feel that you're right in your conclusion - *if* you were to leave
    your wife it shouldn't be for this "other woman", but for *yourself*.
    I've come across several instances where it took a third party to make
    a married someone realise that they'd "lost that loving feeling"....
    doesn't mean that you need to jump straight into a new relationship
    with that third party. *If* you leave home maybe you'll need some
    time to mourn that relationship and reacclimatise before putting your
    energy into a new partner.
    
    Also, I believe that love can die.
    That doesn't mean that it wasn't "true love" in the first place.
    But you can "fall out of love", and people do. It's sad, and hard to
    deal with, but it's real. 
    I believe that over time a relationship can get badly erroded by
    small, repetitive things as much as huge incidents (like an affair).
    Having to sustain the relationship by profoundly changing your natural 
    behaviour, or lopping off whole chunks of your personality, is pretty 
    corrosive.
    Question is, is your marriage actually dead, or just seriously ill?
    
    Could you show your basenote to your wife?
    Have you told her of the string of self-limiting things you feel you've
    done to make the relationship work?
    Would you both consider going to counselling?
    
    If you want to give your marriage a chance, the time for honesty is
    now....
    If you're honest about your feelings, and you still leave your wife, at 
    least you will always know that you gave it your best shot.
     
    'gail
    
    
491.3WAHOO::LEVESQUEBetter by you, better than meThu Aug 23 1990 13:5813
 It is important that you take stock of your relationship and decide whether
your feelings about the impending demise of your marriage are due to the
decline of the marriage itself or the prospect of getting into a relationship
with another person. I agree that you shouldn't leave your wife for this
other woman. If you leave your wife and end up with the other woman, that is
perfectly fine. But if you leave your wife for the other woman and that doesn't
work out, you may find yourself very sad and very lonely and second guessing
yourself. Maek sure you are ready before you make any lasting decision like 
this. Perhaps a separation would help you get your thoughts in order.

 Good luck and best regards in this troubling time,

 The Doctah
491.4let it come to you.OLYMP::BENZService(d) with a smileThu Aug 23 1990 14:0512
    It seems to me you are doing the right thing:
    
    You let the situation come to you and look how it feels to you. And you
    agonise. And talk. And wait. And reason. 
    
    Keep doing those things, and you will get the right clues for yourself
    
    Regards,
    Heinrich
    
    PS: I would not worry too much about your English - me thinks it's
    good.
491.5FRAIS3::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Thu Aug 23 1990 14:2336
    My wife knows, we've talked it over and over, but being open and honest
    doesn't always bring by a solution. Sometimes nature and personality
    get in the way of your best intentions. Unfortunately, people aren't
    that rational...they talk rationally, but act often emotionally. Oddly
    enough, my wife studies psychology and wants to go into counselling
    once she finishes. 
    I can't exctly tell if my marriage is absolutely over the hill, but
    it's dawning on me that it's me not wanting to try it again. I gave all
    I had to give, and I doubt if anyone else's best would have been good
    enough to make it as far as I've made it. 
    And, please, don't ever think I'd rush myself into anything serious
    again, God help me, I'll be busy enough getting my own act together for
    the next time. I'll need my friends. I'll need lots of time for myself.
    You can't plan love, but you can pretty well tell when it's NOT going
    to go too far, and in my case it would be now, I don't have to be Freud
    to tell that. It will hurt, and the process of pain absorbs so much of
    you that you just can't give 100% of you to another person. I know
    that, and so I'll tell the "other one" when I meet her today, for I
    want to keep her friendship, and I want honesty about how I feel to be
    the foundation for it.
    I'm no egoist, but I'll turn off the breathing machine of my marriage.
    People will criticize and say I didn't try hard enough, and my wife
    will be the first among them, because she still loves me, and that's
    what makes it so unbearably woeful for me...As I said, I'd never hurt
    her if I could help it, for I love her as a person that stands very
    close to me and as someone that has wonderful sides in her personality.
    But I'll just HAVE to hurt her very badly when she comes back from her
    vacation. It would have turned out that way WITHOUT the other woman,
    too...
    I guess it's a matter of another topic to find out why men find it so
    hard to say goodbye. I know she'll behave like a lady, and I wished
    she'd start screaming and telling me what a treacherous rat I am and how
    she hates me. It would make it easier. We've surely shed some tears
    together already, but none will be as bitter as these. I've never been
    as scared in my whole life. 
    ...Paul        
491.6talkin worksTELALL::FERNANDESThu Aug 23 1990 14:3313
    Having gone through something similar I can only tell you my
    experience. I found that separating for a while and talking with close
    friends and people who went through problems like yours did i find
    the answer to my delema.
    When you said your wife was like a sister to you, that you were good
    friends, means a lot. It takes a long time to build a relation like
    that with your partner. That's another form of love that keeps a 
    marriage strong. You have to discuss this with your wife, ask her how
    she feels, this is very important. Good friends are hard to find and
    a strong relationship only works when there's good communication.
    Hang in there and try not to get involved with someone else until
    both you and your partner agree that it may be something you both
    need at this point and time. (separation)
491.7ASDS::BARLOWThu Aug 23 1990 14:5233
    
    Please be careful.  On one hand I'm hearing of things she's done, oever
    time that could easily kill love.  On the other hand, you say that you
    still love her; she's your good friend; but there's no spark.  If all
    you're lacking is a spark, then I think that can be fixed.  If you were
    attracted to her once, and you're friends now, then you can be
    again.  Are you feeling this way because she's gained weight, or
    doesn't take care of herself?  Or perhaps because the two of you don't
    fight anymore?  Sounds strange, I know, but perhaps your conflicts were
    the "spark that lit the fire".  I don't think you should just throw it
    away.  Maybe you should, but I think you should give you wife the
    chance she's earned.  I'm sure she's got complaints about you too. 
    Maybe you feel you've done all the work and she feels the same!  Maybe
    with a good talk saying, "Look, I'm ready to give up our marriage.  Is
    there any reason that you think we shouldn't?"  Also, why did she take
    a vacation by herself?  Do you two still have dates?  Just out to
    dinner once every two weeks and I feel infinitely closer to my husband. 
    When was the last time you seduced her or she you?  Sex is often the
    glue that keeps intimacy going.  Maybe imagine that she's someone else. 
    Sooner or later you'll realize that it's really her.  I know you feel
    exhausted but look at your personal history.  Do you often feel like a
    marter, (spelled wrong but a person who always gives and never gets). 
    I know that I often put myself in that position.  I'll find myself
    getting mad at my husband for not doing his chores, when I do them
    before he gets a chance!  (My mom always reminds me that I was the same
    way as a child.)  Are you perhaps the same way?  Do you feel better
    about yourself when you see yourself as the more pious individual?
    I'm not trying to insult you.  I'm only trying to get you to think more
    about why you are where you are.  
    Good luck.  If you're religious, maybe go talk to God about it.
    
    Rachael
    
491.8BTOVT::THIGPEN_SThu Aug 23 1990 15:5026
    Long ago, before I said Yes to my husband's proposal, when I was trying
    to decide, I had a conversation with a friend.  I told Nina that I knew
    that if I wanted to marry, I wanted to marry B., but that I did not
    know whether or not I wanted to get married.  There were other reasons,
    but one was that when you meet a new person, you have that exciting
    period of discovery, of getting familiar with that person, of becoming
    intimate; I'm not describing it well but I think it is recognizable to
    all.  I felt that if I got married, I would have to give up that
    special feeling, and never experience it again.
    
    Nina answered, "No, not with different people."
    
    How did a 19-yr old woman get so wise?  She was so right.  It has
    happened in my marriage, that rediscovery.  It's not like new love. But
    it is real, and touches deeper.  Maybe because I know myself better.
    
    It may be that your marriage is damaged beyond repair; no one can set
    the limits to another's endurance.  Or desire to continue, a slightly
    different thing.  But if you decide to bear a little more, let your
    wife know how far you've really been strung out, you may find a way
    back.
    
    Good luck whichever path you choose.
                                          
    
    
491.9No blame, no martyr...FRAIS3::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Thu Aug 23 1990 15:5423
    re .7:
    
    No, I've never felt like a martyr (just looked it up in my dictionary),
    what I did I always did out of conviction, and it never felt like
    sacrifice.
    And I'm not putting the blame on anybody. What I told was the story,
    but what goes on inside a person's heart throughout this events is a
    different thing. She suffered as much as I did, it's not that she was
    being mean, it was just as hard for her as it was for me. And putting
    the blame on anyone never solved a relationship anyway, it always
    requires a "team-effort" to overcome the situation.
    And, immensely sad as it is, I don't have the will left to clench my
    teeth and go through this. And it's something I'll always reproach
    myself bitterly, but I feel I must be honest to myself and say stop. 
    Look...how long does one have to fight for a relationship? When do you
    know it's time to call it quits? Jeez, you can always keep postponing a
    decision one more time, and you wouldn't ever get anywhere...making a
    mistake is still better than allowing life to pass you by. Keep pace
    with life, but don't let life pace you.
    Life just goes by so fast, it can speed past the undecided and
    uncommitted...and that's why I feel like I have to act. Even though 
    it'll hurt a lot, even though it could break someone's heart. Even 
    if time proves me wrong.
491.10for me it was confused boundariesVAXUUM::KOHLBRENNERThu Aug 23 1990 17:1599
Hello Paul,

Your basenote speaks of the same kind of pain that I am in.
A long-time relationship ended for me a few months ago, and 
the pain before the end and after the end was worse than I 
had ever known.  I may be "projecting" all my stuff into your
situation, so please ignore this if it doesn't sound right
for you.  (It will help *me* to write it out in as succinct a 
form as I can, even if it doesn't help you.)

See if this feels right for you:

When things began to go bad for us, I worked harder and harder
at trying to find out why, at trying to understand what she wanted,
at trying to make things work.  Everything that I did seemed only
to make things worse, not better.  I even finally said, "I am giving
up.  I can't understand anything about us anymore.  Everything I do
only seems to make it worse."  This was agonizing, because I had
in recent years begun to be able to face all issues and go into
issues and problems with a kind of trust that together we could 
explore the problem and our feelings about it and find solutions.

After a few months of looking back at our ended relationship, I 
realize that, although we were *both* unable to keep
the relationship going (because we could not change enough to meet 
the other's needs), our difficulties were different.  My difficulty
was that I did not know my own boundaries.  I was in her space too
much.  I did too much thinking for her, too much feeling for her, 
tried too hard to meet her on her terms.  I came up with a diagram
that shows this lack of boundaries,  that looks like this:

                          /------\
                         /\rrrrrr/\
                        /AA\rrrr/BB\
                       /AAAA\rr/BBBB\
                      /AAAAAA\/BBBBBB\
                     /AAAAAAA??BBBBBBB\
                    /AAAAAAA????BBBBBBB\
                   /AAAAAAA??????BBBBBBB\
                   \AAAAAAA??????BBBBBBB/
                    \AAAAAAA????BBBBBBB/
                     \AAAAAAA??BBBBBBB/
                      \AAAAAA/\BBBBBB/
                       \AAAA/rr\BBBB/
                        \AA/rrrr\BB/
                         \/rrrrrr\/
                          \------/

Normally, I draw it as circles, that overlap in the center.  The outer 
circle, or boundary, is the relationship.  The two inner circles, that
are filled with A's and B's are me and my partner.  The two inner circles 
overlap, where I have shown the question marks and where there are no
boundary lines.  That is where it gets very confusing because the 
boundaries are indistinct.  For me, that is a very difficult place, agonizing.

The space that is marked with "r"s is the part of the relationship
that is not confusing.  This is the place where I can meet my partner
without losing who I am.   What this feels like is that I can extend 
my circle into the "r" space and she can extend her circle into the 
"r" space and we can overlap our circles for awhile, but eventually 
we pull back inside our boundary and we know who we are individually.
In the "r" space, I can take risks, have fun, learn, and enjoy her 
and she can do the same.  We are often happy in this space but not always.  
This space is not defined by "happiness."  It is defined by my being
able to know who I am.  And that means that I know the limits of my
responsibilities -- responsibility to myself, to her and to the 
relationship.

But the space that is marked with the "?"s is a permanently confused
space.  I never know who I am in that space.  That is, there is no
way to retreat from it.  There is no way to limit it.  Again, this is
not defined by happiness.  It is defined by my not knowing who I am.
I do not know what is my responsibility to myself, to her and to the
relationship.  It is terribly confusing and agonizing.

I now am on my own, single, unattached, not in a relationship, and 
I am learning more about this boundary problem that I have.  
I am certain that I will not get into another relationship until I've
got my own boundaries understood.  My new model for a relationship
looks like this:

                          /------------\
                         /\rrrrrrrrrrrr/\
                        /AA\rrrrrrrrrr/BB\
                       /AAAA\rrrrrrrr/BBBB\
                      /AAAAAA\rrrrrr/BBBBBB\
                     /AAAAAAAA\rrrr/BBBBBBBB\
                    /AAAAAAAAAA\rr/BBBBBBBBBB\
                   /AAAAAAAAAAAA\/BBBBBBBBBBBB\
                   \AAAAAAAAAAAA/\BBBBBBBBBBBB/
                    \AAAAAAAAAA/rr\BBBBBBBBBB/
                     \AAAAAAAA/rrrr\BBBBBBBB/
                      \AAAAAA/rrrrrr\BBBBBB/
                       \AAAA/rrrrrrrr\BBBB/
                        \AA/rrrrrrrrrr\BB/
                         \/rrrrrrrrrrrr\/
                          \------------/

The "relationship" is much bigger, and we are both whole people within it.
491.11Some thoughts...TLE::FISHERWork that dream and love your lifeThu Aug 23 1990 18:2843
>    Unfortunately, people aren't
>    that rational...they talk rationally, but act often emotionally. 

That's why it is important to "talk emotionally."  Meaning, that it is 
important to share the feelings--even the "bad" and unpleasant 
ones--through talking that isn't "blaming."  In my opinion, one of 
the reasons why passion goes away in a relationship is because the 
closeness of sharing emotionally breaks down, and the partners begin 
to edit and keep things to themselves.

>    Oddly
>    enough, my wife studies psychology and wants to go into counselling
>    once she finishes. 

On the surface, this sounds at odds, but it is perfectly in line with 
what I have experienced.  Therapists and counselors are skilled at 
being "detached" and at sounding sympathetic without really relating 
emotionally.  It's part of their jobs, but it is deadly in a relationship.

I have a friend who is a trained counselor.  He was telling me about a 
scathing letter he had gotten from his ex-wife.  I asked him how he 
felt when he received the letter, but he replied with this 
philosophical discussion about what her hostility meant in the grand 
scheme of the universe.  I interrupted him once gently and one again 
loudly by asking, "But how did YOU feel?"  And finally, he said, "I 
felt sad and angry."  It was like pulling teeth.  And this is from 
someone who is trained to get his clients to open up emotionally.

In general, I second what Mark said.  I think that you need to take 
stock of your current relationship.  I think that you and your wife 
need to do some serious exchanges of emotional talking to find out 
what you both need from the relationship and to find out how you two 
can make each other happy again.  If, after that attempt at getting 
you two emotionally in line again, it doesn't work out, then maybe 
it's time to move on.

Feel free to ignore anything in this note that doesn't sound like it 
applies to you or that sounds like it wouldn't work.

In any event, Good luck!


							--Ger			
491.12YUPPY::DAVIESAGrail seekerFri Aug 24 1990 07:4713
     
    Re .5 and .9
    
    Paul,
    It sounds from these notes of yours that you've 90% made your decision.
    
    Do start the other topic that you suggested, and continue to let
    us know how you're feeling. I, for one, feel that I can learn a lot
    from hearing about your feelings at different stages of your situation.
    
    Good luck,
    'gail
    
491.13FRAIS3::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Fri Aug 24 1990 09:4538
    Re. -1:
    
    Yes, I'll open that new topic, for I feel like it could be extremely
    helpful for me how other people feel about leaving a relationship and a
    whole period of someone's life behind.
    
    Re. to all notes:
    
    Thanks to all of you, each note gave me something to think about, and I
    printed them out and took them home to re-read them. They were very
    useful inputs for a long night of soul-searching.
    I found it very interesting that the men's input was a bit more of
    "you're right, go your own way", and the female view tended to be a bit
    more of "go through this and give it one more chance" in essence.
    That's something that struck me among my friends, too, and probably is
    a proof that indeed women are more willing to sacrifice and work hard
    for saving a relationship than men generally are. 
    You may ask yourselves why someone would have the need to enter such a
    personal note and open up in front of strangers, and I'm the first to
    say I'm a bit surprised about myself, for I'm a person that usually
    takes some time to warm up and open his heart to others (typical
    cancer, one could say if he'd believe in astrology). What happened is
    that the common opinion among my friends is to "think about it one more
    time", and that can throw you a few steps back in your decision process
    in a situation where your self-esteem is not exactly flying high anyway.
    So I decided to put the story in the hand of some "strangers", knowing
    that I was addressing a circle of people interested in matters of
    relationship problems in this conference. And somehow it helped, I
    can't say why now, not that now I'd found the answer to my problems, 
    I'm aware it'll take time, but it helped me to see not everybody thinks
    I'm crazy for leaving "such a wonderful woman" (quote of a friend).
    Well, I can't say if time will make me wiser, but I'm willing to learn
    life's lessons the harder way if that's what fate has in hand for me.
    There seem to be times when analyizing your feelings over and over
    don't help you in getting closer to a solution, but you just have to
    look into the deepest corner of your heart and base a decision on faith
    in yourself alone.
    ...Paul
491.14be warnedCSC32::HADDOCKAll Irk and No PayFri Aug 24 1990 17:2814
    Just a word of warning, though.  As bad as marriage can be, divorce can
    be a real *bitch*.  I've seen a lot of people who thought divorce would
    solve their problems say that if they knew how hard divorce was going
    to be they would have tried harder to save the marriage.  One more 
    suggestion that I think you should try before 'ending it' is to try 
    marriage counseling.  If you still feel the same after that, then the
    marriage probably *is* dead.  I've seen a lot of marriages ended for
    lesser reasons than the ones you state, but the fact that you entered
    this note at all indicates to me that you *do* have enough left to
    try 'one more time'.
    
    fred();
    
491.15Please try to communicate with her first.NUTMEG::GODINNaturally I'm unbiased!Fri Aug 24 1990 19:1716
    To add another supportive voice for getting counseling and exploring
    if divorce is really the right choice:  before I ever considered a
    divorce, a family member who had just been through one told me she
    wouldn't wish a divorce on her worst enemy.  After I'd been through
    one, I agreed.  They're terribly hard on __everyone__ involved (and the
    ripple effect through your families, even if you don't have children,
    multiplies the number of people affected).
    
    If you really mean it that you consider your wife your good friend,
    then for both of your sakes, try to be open to talking about the
    problems and trying to reach a mutually enriching solution BEFORE you
    try a divorce.
    
    Best wishes to both of you.
    Karen
              
491.16hoping for the best...FRAIS::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Mon Aug 27 1990 07:0442
    re: last two notes
    
    Rest assured that I'll communicate and I'll say *everything* I have to
    say in the first place, and not just break in with a "honey, we're
    through"...We already have done a lot of communicating, and, like
    someone said, it was just too rational, I've often felt thoroughly
    analyzed, but not understood, for the talking was very emphatic, but
    didn't change anything. 
    About not going for divorce because it's hell...I can't picture
    anything worse than living in a lie just because I'm afraid of the
    legal process. I guess you can always start second-guessing yourself
    when you're in the thick of it and it seems nothing could be worse. But
    I guess when you are through it and you start feeling like you're not
    dancing to someone else's drum, that you live *your* life again and
    hold the cards of fate in your hands again...that's when you won't
    regret anything you did.
    You know, I always try to picture myself with 70 years, looking back at
    the things I did in life. I want to be able to look back in pride and
    say "well, maybe you didn't make it, but you made the best out of it
    and didn't miss too many opportunities". It sounds much better than if
    I'd have to say "oh boy, how would it have turned out if I had done
    action xy? You never lived YOUR life..." Making a decision, even if it
    is the wrong one, surely brings you further in life than just reacting
    to things about you. You have to set the pace of your own life, and if
    you bungle it and fall, hey, you can always stand up tall, dust
    yourself and try it another time.
    No, I don't think that being afraid of the process of divorce should be
    the reason to try it again. That's a decision that must come from the
    heart, and afterwards you have to stick to it, no matter how hard it
    gets. Besides, in Germany you have to live in separation for one year
    before you can even try to get divorced, so that will be stage 1. And I
    don't think we're as far as we could start throwing mud at each other,
    I hope for a friendly settlement, and I think it's possible (even
    though a friend of mine who is lawyer showed me how dearly I'll have to
    pay until she finishes her studies and starts to work..). I am the
    first to say her clock ticked just as fast as mine, and she has every
    right to be taken care of for the next few years, I really owe it to
    her. But yet...I've heard amazing things of how people start changing
    during the divorce...but if it becomes a war, well, it's a lesson, too!
    My father always told me "if something does not kill you, it makes you
    stronger". Sounds wise.
    ...Paul
491.17HKFINN::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Mon Aug 27 1990 18:0120
    A few thoughts/comments:
    
    There is just no pleasing some people, and there is no point in trying.
    
    You say your wife loves you, but does she love you or love her idea
    of what you "should" be?
    
    All you can be is yourself; if your wife can't accept YOU, then it
    is her problem, not your problem.
    
    Although I tend to be viewing this from your side of the situation,
    I agree that counseling, for both of you, would be an excellent idea.
    You may discover some things about yourself that you don't know and
    can't see.  Even it doesn't help the relationship, counseling may help
    you, in the long run.
    
    I can't imagine getting married at the age of 22 (I got married at 40).
    
    A relationship doesn't need to be as hard as yours sounds.
    
491.18watch out for those signs!FRAIS3::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Tue Aug 28 1990 07:0018
    Counselling...you are all right, we should have done that. I proposed
    it one year ago, but she didn't want me to hear everything she had to
    say about the why she had problems accepting any of my friends or
    accepting some of the sides in my personality. So she went alone. And
    it seems she never opened up in those sessions, for they didn't help at
    all. And now I think it's just too late, I'm just tired of trying and
    not getting back what I expect. It's not she being mean or unthankful,
    it's just about incompatible personalities that tried to get along too
    hard; she thinks she gives tenderness making a beautiful dinner, I
    feel left down when I come home from work and nobody hugs me, kisses
    me and asks me how my day was, if I got no one to talk to. It seems we
    just give the wrong things to each other, and then everybody is
    expecting the other one to make the first step. And it's always me. She
    never learned to say "I'm sorry". She never came to me and told me she
    loved me. It was always me doing the first move. And one just gets too
    tired.
    It's really sad, but life always gives you another chance.
    ...Paul
491.19We both tried...FRAIS3::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Thu Aug 30 1990 08:0611
    re: 492.18 by VAXUUM::KOHLBRENNER
    
    Wow, Bill  that's the second time you're proposing I ought to visit an
    analyst...do you hold shares of a counseling agency, or do I really
    sound that intransigent and/or in urgent need of a therapy?
    As I said, my wife did not want me to go, and so I just went once to
    give the guy a picture on what a genuinely easy-going chap I am and how
    easy it is to get along with me...seriously, I was willing to do and
    try everything, but it just didn't accomplish a thing.
    ...Paul
    
491.20therapyVAXUUM::KOHLBRENNERThu Aug 30 1990 13:3881
    re: .19  being an easy-going chap...
    
    I think I'm over-involved in the topics that you started, Paul.
    As Gerry says, when my button gets pushed, I've learned that it
    is something for me to pay attention to.  That's why I warned you
    that I am doing a lot of projecting here, and you should ignore
    what I say if it doesn't sound right...
    
    I used to think of myself as a genuinely easy-going chap, too.
    I was easy-going for 23 years of marriage.  Very accommodating.
    And my wife was the same way.  We never argued, seldom disagreed.
    We raised four kids, and that means a lot of aggravation.  We
    coped with the aggravation by being easy-going, permissive,
    accommodating, understanding, caring, etc.  After 23 years,
    we had no marriage at all.  I was so passive (and depressed) 
    that I quite honestly believed that I was dying.  I figured 
    I had 10 more years if I was lucky and that those 10 years 
    would be a slow slide into the grave.  I was overweight, had 
    migraine headaches, chronic indigestion, a lot of allergies, 
    could hardly climb two flights of stairs, and had a lot of 
    seething unexpressed anger that I did a good job of denying.  
    That was where I was six years ago.
    
    I had lunch a couple of times with a younger woman that I worked
    with and I realized that I could still be witty, charming, etc, and
    I could still be aroused, energized.  I spent the summer agonizing
    over who I was and where I was going (the grave) and I decided I
    needed to try to start my life over.  I could not imagine that I 
    could make any significant changes in my life while I was in this
    marriage.  I thought I could have a simple divorce, since there 
    was nothing left to the marriage, anyway.
    
    I could not believe the anger that my wife found after I said I
    wanted to get divorced.  If I had known that she was going to be
    so angry, I would have gone on being accommodating, etc.  I now
    understand her anger...
    
    In any case, we got divorced.  I have spent the last six years
    starting my life over, the last three years in therapy.  And the
    last three years talking to other men (in a men's support group
    that I helped start, that meets weekly) and in a number of workshops
    that I have gone to.  I have learned that being nice and easy-going
    is an incredibly bad place for me to be, and for my wife to have been.
    Both men and women need to have a fierceness that they can call on
    when they need it.  They need to be able to use the energy of anger
    to resist manipulation by people and circumstances and to assert
    themselves.  I believe that a marriage that has no heated disagreements 
    is a dead or dying marriage.
    
    Well, my button is pushed by the passivity that I keep reading
    (projecting) into what you are saying.  I want to grab you and
    shake you until I see some fire come into your eyes.  Until you
    push me away, and say, "What the *** are you doing?  Take your
    hands off me or I'll deck you."   I'll let go and say, "Great,
    Paul.  Push back.  Feel that fire inside.  Let it move you."  
    
    You see, I wish someone had done that for me.  Of course, I wish
    my father had done it 40 years ago, but he didn't and couldn't.
    
    I don't care if you get divorced or stay married.  It is the
    passivity that pushes my button.  Your wife goes off and has 
    her own therapy, and refuses to do some joint counseling with you,
    and you accept it and go once to her therapist to show her that
    you are a nice guy.  God forbid that the therapist might misunderstand
    and think that you were something else!   
    
    Paul, you can still be a nice guy, but can do a little yelling and
    screaming, too.  Doesn't it piss you off that she is getting what
    she needs and you aren't?  You seem to be in agony over the ending
    of this marriage, but you are so passive that  you can't do anything
    about it.  You have to ask us to tell you how to be assertive.
    
    Find a good therapist and get to work on yourself, not her, or the
    marriage.  It is time to become just a little bit selfish.  The rest
    will sort itself out.  
    
    (As I said before, ignore it, if it doesn't fit.  It is me talking
    to me, after six years of doing it.  Maybe it helps you, maybe it
    doesn't...)
    
    Bill
491.21Passivity IS a killer!BTOVT::MUNROE_RI set my feet upon the rockThu Aug 30 1990 13:5012
    re .20)
    
    this passivity thing really gets me.  I was engaged to a guy whose
    parents *never fought*.  This made me wonder a bit.  How can that be? 
    My parents threw things.  We kids threw things.  The neighbors
    wondered.  We're a close-knit family.  
    
    So, when he and I started to talk and disagree, he took it that we just
    weren't alike enough:  there should be no fighting if you're really
    meant for each other.  Oh please.  I agree with .20.  
    
    ---Becca
491.22DICKNS::WELLCOMESteve Wellcome (Maynard)Thu Aug 30 1990 19:4011
    re: counseling, etc.
    
    I'm a great believer (like Bill K, I guess).  You can't do anything
    to change her, but you can change *YOU*.  Why would you want to?
    I never could understand why anybody would want to go to counseling
    until I went.  I heartily recommend the experiece.
    
    Workshops can be good.  Spring Hill of Ashby has one called "Opening
    the Heart" that can be a very powerful experience.  (Their office
    is on Mass.  Ave. in Cambridge, sorry I don't know the number offhand.)
    
491.23talking 'bout *feelings*, not actions...FRAIS3::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Mon Sep 03 1990 09:0350
    re .20
    
    Bill, your comments are always very interesting and welcome, although I
    think you have a slightly wrong picture about me...for I can very well
    be assertive and get my message through...
    My notes are not so much about the way I am acting (I have quite a
    terrible weekend behind me, you better believe me...), but about the
    way I am feeling. I'm sorry, I can't deny that now I am very sad seeing
    this relationship end. There has been anger and frustration for quite
    some time in me, but this feeling has just vanished now, now I only
    feel pain for hurting a person I loved for so long, for seing all those
    dreams of the last years scattered in the wind.
    But this doesn't mean I'm not acting, on the contrary, on the outside I
    seem very determined and tough, for I know that any contradictory sign
    of comfort could be misunderstood and raise some hopes. But this is
    taking all my energy, let me tell you.
    I don't think there's any shame in telling you feel weak sometimes, it
    would be good to always have a a bright guiding vision in your mind of
    how life's going to be, and being tough and determined. But in real
    life things are not that heroic, you just know you have to go through a
    situation even if you hardly have anything left.
    I am acting to change my life. But there's no fire in my eyes, there's
    no great heroic determination guiding each of my actions, but maybe it
    will come again in time. For now I feel just empty, bitter and
    disappointed. But I am not passive.
    Still, your notes are extremely interesting, and they always help me in
    directing my mind into a direction I hadn't thought about too much
    about before. Please continue projecting your situation into mine, I
    reall learn a lot that way, and you are right with most of the things
    you assume!
    About counseling...I did not want to change my wife. I don't believe in
    viewing people as a framework you can work on to model your dream
    partner. I didn't ask her to go to counseling. I got "counseling" from a
    friend of mine who's psychologist I spent entire days talking about
    myself. I always took the time to think what I want and what I search
    for. I walked on a wrong path for some time, but it was because I cared
    for another person and I wanted to save the relationship. But now I
    found out. It's not that I have prejudices about attending some analyst
    sessions, it's just that I don't feel like needing it for now.
    It's not that I wasn't active when my wife went to counseling. Oh, I
    tried very hard to get involved, and I talked about all her unpleasant
    feelings over and over with her, it's just that I didn't help.
    I don't feel like having missed a chance because I just sat around
    letting things come to me. I tried a lot. And yes, I fell and didn't
    succeed. It can happen. But I sincerely think I gave my best, and
    overstreched myself in the end.
    I just feel awfully bad. I just wanted to know how other people felt in
    similar situations. But I didn't want anybody to tell me what to do.
    ...Paul
    
491.24in the thick of it...FRAIS3::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Mon Sep 10 1990 09:5616
    re.:  Bill
    
    Bill,
    
    	you've surely been where I am before. 
    
    I am noticing how I my mood is shifting towards being more impatient,
    towards defending my "boundaries", and now the lack of energy caused by
    sadness is a-tiny-bit overcome. I feel that fire you talked about
    now. It's nothing to be proud about, for I am hurting another person,
    but I just realized that if I'm not selfish NOW, I'll never be able to
    put an end to this. It's being tough, but I know I've found my way, and
    I know I have to stick to it.
    Just wanted to tell you I'm impressed by your capability to feel and
    even forsee what's going on inside another person.
    ...Paul
491.25BoundariesVAXUUM::KOHLBRENNERMon Sep 10 1990 13:0830
    RE: .24, Paul
    
    Thanks, Paul.
    
    In the continuing saga, I called up the woman who jilted me and
    suggested we go have a drink and see if we couldn't get laughing
    at ourselves.  (I've worked through all the anger in the intervening
    three months.  But I needed to know where I would be if I were
    face-to-face with her.)  She agreed, we had a drink, then had dinner,
    ended up talking for almost six hours.   Much frank talk about who did
    what to whom (since the anger is discharged, this was pretty easy to
    do), then a lot of reminiscing about the good times and what we gave
    each other, then a lot of laughing at ourselves.
    
    And all through it, I understood where my boundaries now are and it
    felt good to be able to like her and appreciate her for all the 
    wonderful qualities that make her so appealing and yet to know that 
    I'm inside my boundaries, not over-extended as I was.  And I see
    clearly what she wants and is getting from her new guy (that I am
    totally unwilling to supply).    (The price that she will pay in
    this new relationship is that he demands that she marry him, and 
    she is terrified of that, but is agreeing to it!  They are engaged.
    I reminded her of what she did in the past when she was feeling coerced,
    then dropped it.  I am not responsible for her.)    (The price that I
    am currently paying for my independence is periods of loneliness.)
    
    I told her I would cheer her on in her new life.  (But that does
    not include being her confidant.)
    
    Bill
491.26FRAIS::LIESENBERGKierkegaard was right...Tue Sep 11 1990 11:156
    I wished I'd be half as far...there's no way we could laugh at
    ourselves right now...
    As for loneliness...going through a period of growth, even if it is a
    tough one, seems to be a cheaper price to pay than letting life pass
    you by living in a worn-out relationship...
    ...Paul
491.27the state of things...FRAMBO::LIESENBERGJust order a drink, Tantalus!Tue Oct 02 1990 07:4346
    Ans so... My wife asked me to try some final counseling, and I felt I
    owed it to the 5 years we've been together to attend some sessions and
    see what happens. Well, it was sad for me to see I sat there like a
    non-involved spectator, just explaining very rationally what had lead
    to the erosion of my feelings and that something in me was just crying
    for "freedom" now. It demonstrated me that my emotions have just taken
    every choice from me. It's over.
    My wife has noticed it, and she has surprised me with the courage and
    the strength she's taken the situation. Of course she breakes down
    occasionally, but all in all she respects my decision, and understands
    it, too, even though she remarks I should have given her another
    chance.
    But now we're agreeing on the ways and the terms to separate. It's
    going to take a couple more of weeks, and it's going to sting at my
    heart when she picks up her things and I'm left alone with my stuff and
    some memories in our, that is, soon to be my flat. (I'm already packing
    away all the photographs and letters, I couldn't bear looking at them
    right now. Let's see how long it'll take until I can look at them
    again...)
    But, through all the blues, I am looking forward to the new period I
    have in front of me. To be myself again, after so many years of
    adapting and dancing to someone else's drum.
    But, hell, I seem to have a special talent for entangled situations.
    There's another person in my life. A perfect friend, and a wonderful
    woman. She has everything I'd wish. And she loves me.
    But why now? God, I feel under pressure again. I guess I'm in
    love, too, but I don't want to let myself go and jump straight into a
    new relationship, for I've got to get my own act together right now, it
    ain't easy to throw 5 years of your life overboard... Guess that,
    although I'm in love, I'm afraid of love right now...
    She says she can wait for me to be ready. And I'm left wondering if I'm
    really in love or if I'd be using her to overcome the hurt and the
    loneliness I'm going through. Am I just scared? Would it just take a
    relationship to emotionally heal me and destroy the wall of
    self-protection I seem to have built up?
    What's your experience? Do relationships after a divorce usually break
    up because the divorced person goes through an "egoisitic" phase, and
    isn't able to give his all?
    God, this is probably the person I was looking for, but I'm too afraid
    of starting something at a time when every relation is sentenced to
    fail... And I don't want to risk her friendship or the chance we surely
    have in the future just because I feel rotten lonely one night...
    Follow your heart, you'd say, but that's just too simple. Ah, I'd wish
    I had a crystal ball!
    ...Paul
    
491.28VAXUUM::KOHLBRENNERTue Oct 09 1990 13:3110
    Hi Paul,
    
    Regardless of whether you enter a new relationship immediately,
    or wait a while, the pattern will repeat until you make some
    changes.  You can choose to make the changes now, or later.
    
    My advice is to forget about women for a while - maybe a year or
    two, and work on yourself.
    
    Bill
491.29FRAMBO::LIESENBERGJust order a drink, Tantalus!Fri Oct 12 1990 12:1716
    Right again, Bill,
    
    indeed, the pattern tends to repeat a bit, as I've noticed in time... I
    seem to be a person that tries to avoid conflicts by adapting to the
    other person, a bit of a "Zelig" in me, I guess...
    I'm not going to jump straight into a new relationship, it would be a
    terrible mistake, for I'd just use the other person in order to avoid
    feeling lonely. But I have to feel lonely to get my heart together now,
    everything else would be sort of an emotional narcosis.
    I took the freedom to plagiate your idea with a men's group three weeks
    ago, so I co-founded one with a friend that is a psychologist, we made an
    ad in a trendy magazine and we had to select 6 guys from a total of
    seventy that were interested in the type of group communication we
    advertised. We have a very interesting bunch of people together, and
    it's just sooo enriching and interesting...it works great.
    ...Paul                                                   
491.30VAXUUM::KOHLBRENNERFri Oct 12 1990 17:1411
    Wow!  I hesitated to recommend a men's group, Paul.
    But you've gone ahead and done it!  Great stuff!
    
    Can you avoid being a Zelig with men?  Is the Zelig
    behavior only with women?
    
    Seventy men, huh?  You selected a small number, did
    the others manage to form some other groups?
    
    Bill
    
491.31FROCKY::LIESENBERGJust order a drink, Tantalus!Mon Oct 15 1990 12:2441
    Bill,
    of course, we encouraged the other sixtysomething men to form their own
    groups and suggested a group composition based on common interests
    as good as we could. And some psychology students volunteered to act as
    moderators for the groups, too. It's a good feeling to know you started
    up something that might enrich people, I found the response we got in
    just a couple of days amazing...
    And, yes, I tend to adapt myself into a group of men, too, but I
    don't know if up to a certain point this is normal social behaviour.
    Looking back, I've done much more adapting when being with women, it's
    true. On the other side, I have been always aware of the conflicts I
    ran into and spoke about it at some point in time. 
    I think it's not an aberration in one's behaviour if, when a
    relationship begins, you want to be liked and do a lot. If the woman
    tells you "I love musicals, you know?", you'll be standing in line to
    get some cards for "The Phantom of the Opera" immediately, even though
    musicals bore you to death, but you'll enjoy every minute with that
    woman sitting beside you. And, next time, you'll take her into an art
    exhibition or whatever you happen to like...that's the way it goes at
    the begining, isn't it? Maybe the "Zelig" phenomenon is worth its own
    note, anyway...
    Of course, it has certain limits when it comes to friends you're not
    supposed to meet anymore and the like, and adapting as sickeningly as I
    did for my wife is a mistake I'll never do again, you can bet on that.
    The pattern was that I started saying "I can't take this anymore!" and
    she said "It's either me or them!", at which I had to back up and
    swallow my anger, because I loved her. But I've learned there are
    things you have to defend no matter how bad it gets, even though I've
    learned the hard way...
    Gosh, it's always this question of "what would have happened if I had
    been tougher earlier on, when I still loved her?" that really hurts
    deep inside, for she tells me often she'd tried to change earlier
    if I'd been harder with her... This second-guessing, this "what could I
    have done better?" is soooo painful.
    Looks as if we don't learn a bit from happiness and success, seems that
    we have to bite dust to stop being so complacent and start to wonder
    what the hell went wrong...and when the ship's already sinking, it's
    always too late...
    ...Paul