Conference quark::mennotes-v1

 I know what you mean. I haven't paid any attention to the gender of those
who walk as if no one else is there, but I have begun to simply stop and allow 
them to avoid me. I'm tired of having to practically dive out of the way of
the discourteous.

 The Doctah

    Hmmm. I've noticed this, too - but not predominantly from women. In my
    case, the types who seem to ignore and/or run me over the most often
    are those wearing suits... (Fortunately, in ZK I don't run into them
    very often!)
    
    Maybe the Suits feel that the Non-Suits should behave like Victorian
    servants and be invisible?
    
    [This is not to be taken as a diatribe against suit-wearing; some of my
    best friends wear suits. Sometimes. It's only my viewpoint on an odd
    phenomenon... ;-)]
    
    -b

Ayuh me too. But it's not just groups of women. It's groups of women, groups
of men and groups of men and women. Seems if you're not part of the group
you're a non-person, especially if you're an engineer in jeans and the
group is made up of well-dressed marketing types...arggh. Nowadays I just plow
right thru 'em or into 'em. They hate when that happens. :-)

Jenna

    Funny, I've mostly noticed it from male Harvard students...
    
    Ray

    HA!  Everyone always steps on me- I am constanly dodging people.
    I am 5'1", 21, female and I look much younger than that, so people
    naturally assume I have no worth!!!  ARGH!!!
    ( I can't count the number of times people have not seen me and
    have therefore stepped on my feet.  It must happen atleast once
    a week!!!!!)    
    
    I think it is mainly that some people are *rude*.  It doesn't depend
    on gender, although it might depend on position.  If someone is
    in a high-powered position (a suit-wearer, usually) they are probably
    so used to people groveling that they *expect* everyone to move
    out of their way.  I suggest not dodging next time and plowing right
    through the middle, saying loudly, "EXCUSE ME"
    
KarenKay who_always_tries_to_be_polite_but_has_taken_up_yelling_excuse_
    me_as_a_last_resort

In my observations of this phenomenon, it's not exclusively women - it's
any group that seems to be unaware of its surroundings.   But it is interesting
that I have observed more groups of women spread across the hall than men -
I will have to pay more attention and see if this is really so.

			Steve

    Something else which bothers me is when you walk down the hall and say
    good morning, or how are you to someone and they ignore you.  I have
    experienced this from people from all walks of life.  Makes you want to
    become one of them.......Nah, continue to be friendly and courteous. 
    Why?  Because it's the right thing to do.
    
    
    Mike

I think this was discussed in HUMAN_RELATIONS (where this whole topic might
be more appropriate).  Many people, often myself included, are lost in thought
while walking the halls and may not see nor hear you.  I notice many people
walk with their eyes on the floor, and don't notice people nearby.  Sometimes
someone says "Hi" and continues to walk past - I turn around and they're
gone.

So don't assume that it's impoliteness - it may just be unawareness.

			Steve

    I personally feel this behaviour is "sort of" endemic to this area
    (Massachusetts, and perhaps, to a lesser degree, other New England
    states). 
    
    Since moving here last year, and in all the years of short visits to
    this area, I have generally felt that a LOT of folks here are very much
    oblivious to others.  
    
    It is particularly obvious on the highways in this area.
    
    tony

    
    I have also noticed that people tend to cut corners, even if they are on
    the left side.  I have not noticed any pattern as to what kind of
    people do this, but I get run over alot too.
    
    RE: saying "Hi" to people you don't know
    
    Being female, if males say "Hi" to me and I don't know them, I'm apt to
    give them a dirty look and no answer.  Here's why.  In my more naive
    days, I would smile back, look straight into their eyes and say "Hi" in
    a very perky, friendly voice.  You have no idea how many men thought I
    was making a pass at them!  Even a simple hello without the smile or
    the eye contact can be construed as flirting, especially coming from
    me, for some unknown reason.  So, don't be offended if women don't say
    "hi".  I, personally, cannot do that.  It's not good for my career. 
    
    Rachael
    

.10>    Being female, if males say "Hi" to me and I don't know them, I'm apt to
.10>    give them a dirty look and no answer.  Here's why.  In my more naive
.10>    days, I would smile back, look straight into their eyes and say "Hi" in
.10>    a very perky, friendly voice.  You have no idea how many men thought I
.10>    was making a pass at them!  Even a simple hello without the smile or
.10>    the eye contact can be construed as flirting, especially coming from
.10>    me, for some unknown reason.  So, don't be offended if women don't say
.10>    "hi".  I, personally, cannot do that.  It's not good for my career. 
    
Boy! What a sad commentary...  My hope is that you would go back to your old
ways.  Be perky, be friendly, its good tonic for the human spirit!  

Don

> .10>  I, personally, cannot do that.  It's not good for my career. 
>    
> Boy! What a sad commentary...  My hope is that you would go back to your old
> ways.  Be perky, be friendly, its good tonic for the human spirit!  
    
    Don.  I don't think you heard the emphasis expressed the same way I
    did, or the same way Rachael intended.  She has clearly expressed her
    regret that her former behavior was misinterpreted.  But she has also
    clearly stated she doesn't intend to risk damage to her career from
    those misinterpretations.  She is reflecting an all-too-unfortunate
    truth, here; that a woman can get a 'reputation' due to the
    inappropriate behavior of a few jerks around her, and that this
    undeserved reputation can negatively affect her potential earnings and
    opportunities.  Regretably, you seem to have either missed the point 
    entirely, or chosen to downplay it.  Your suggestion comes across as
    a cold slap to someone who doesn't have the luxury to take the risk you
    advocate.  Perhaps you could reconsider your advice.
    
    DougO

    	RE: Basenote

    	> What I have noticed is that women nearly NEVER are curteous
    	> in an aisle. I've watched other men move into cubicles and move
    	> against walls, twist and turn and do anything to keep from crashing
    	> into other men or women.
    	
    	This generalization doesn't hold up, in my experience.

    	It seems to me that groups of people (of both/mixed sexes) tend to
    	be oblivious to others when having a conversation, but I've never
    	seen men tossed over walls or into cubicles while women barrel down
    	Digital's hallways.  Honestly.  ;^)

    	> They seem to instinctively think that a man will allow them to 
    	> pass without having to make an effort to make more room. They will 
    	> NOT walk single file... 

    	Gee, I haven't seen people walk single file together down a hallway
    	since grade school.  Is it your assertion that most men DO walk
    	in single file when they're together in the hallway?  I haven't
    	seen this.

    	> ...one of them will NOT drop behind the other two to allow passage.
    
    	I've seen people of both sexes DO this (but they don't convert to
    	single file.)  They just move aside for a moment.  If people are
    	carrying on a conversation while walking down the hall, it's easy
    	to see how they might be oblivious to others, though (no matter
    	which sex they are.)

    	> It's as if they do, they demean themselves or something.

    	You have no way of knowing what strangers are thinking when they
    	pass you in the hall, Ken. 

    	> I've decided that if people can't make an effort to make room, I 
    	> won't either. I'll keep my shoulders square make them move for me 
    	> or suffer the impacts. 

    	Sort of like "playing chicken" in the hallway, eh?  (Interesting
    	decision for a "safety engineer," don't you think?)  

    	> I've been polite for the first 40 years of my life, now it some 
    	> else's turn.....
    
    	Ken, I never realized you were the only one all this time.  ;^)

    G'Day,
    
    	I have noticed this problem lately as well.  Not so much at the
    office as we don't really have any long narrow hallways but on the
    street and in supermarket aisleways (where trolleys make it worse). 
    Here in Australia, the problem as I see it is much more predominant
    with males.  I usually move over or sway out of the way of oncoming
    people and really expect them to do the same but not many do.  If I
    didn't move then there would be a collision for sure.  I have seen this
    happen and what makes it worse is that the person who walks without
    really caring who he/she hits always thinks it's the other persons
    fault and really lets them know it.
    
    	Just another side of modern day living that we can really do
    without.
    
    David.
    

    RE: DougO,
    
    
    I didn't read the note that way at all.  I read it as telling her the
    heck with those idiots, and don't let a few jerks dictate your 
    behaviour.  We need more smiling faces in the world.  I didn't see
    anything derogatory at all.
    
    MiKe

.12>    Don.  I don't think you heard the emphasis expressed the same way I
.12>    did, or the same way Rachael intended.  She has clearly expressed her
.12>    regret that her former behavior was misinterpreted.  But she has also
.12>    clearly stated she doesn't intend to risk damage to her career from
.12>    those misinterpretations.

I am afraid I heard what she said all to well!  "Risk damage to her career",
what about her life?  This lady has been "raped"!  She changed her behavior
due to this incident!

.12>                               She is reflecting an all-too-unfortunate
.12>    truth, here; that a woman can get a 'reputation' due to the
.12>    inappropriate behavior of a few jerks around her, and that this
.12>    undeserved reputation can negatively affect her potential earnings and
.12>    opportunities.  Regretably, you seem to have either missed the point 
.12>    entirely, or chosen to downplay it.  Your suggestion comes across as
.12>    a cold slap to someone who doesn't have the luxury to take the risk you
.12>    advocate.  Perhaps you could reconsider your advice.

No way can I reconsider my advice!  I would strongly advise her to fight back
and expose these jerks for what they are!  I can't think of a better way than to
meet them head-on and this means she has to go back to her old ways.  What do 
you suggest she do, play dead?  

Well, here is what we should do...  Whenever we meet a person in the hallway 
that comes across as Rachael used to do, we should try to do them one better
and return their greeting with more enthusiasm!  Think of the atmosphere then...
Wouldn't it be a better place to work?

    re .10 and several responses thereto
    
    Smiling and saying hi does not constitute flirting, but it does get a
    man's attention if he finds the lady attractive.  As long as men are
    basically responsible for taking all the initiatives, they will respond
    to such apparent cues if they find the smiler attractive.  For all they
    know, it may be exactly what you want.  This may seem a little strange
    coming from the author of the 478 basenote; in that, I was referring
    more to a systematic, prolonged form of flirting in which the lady
    seems to be going out of her way to get attention, in a way that is
    indistinguishable from honest interest.  If you don't do that, but
    merely show casual courtesy, you are not really flirting.  If a man
    asks you out on that basis, he's just sounding you out, probably more
    because of your appearance and/or intelligence than your behavior.
    
    Craig

    re .16, Mike, I didn't say Don was being derogatory.  I said his words
    came across as a cold slap, telling someone who has already been forced
    to change her behavior that she was wrong to do so and she should
    change it back, and be 'perky' again.
    
    re .17, Don, the 'incidents' Rachael cited were multiple.  She
    experienced many men misinterpreting her actions.  Now, you go further,
    and advocate she fight back, to expose the jerks.  You put the burden
    for correcting an overall societal problem on one victim.  You
    completely ignore, again, the effects this would have on her
    reputation and upon her career ("evaluation: doesn't work well with
    peers ...") Think about what would REALLY happen if a woman really
    vehemently objected to every sexist jerk that accosted her.  She would
    get the blame, not the jerks.  If you haven't seen this reality, you
    aren't noticing the same sexist reality I am.  Or you haven't been
    listening when women tell you what it's like, how difficult it is to
    object to something that happens ALL THE TIME...every time you greet
    someone, in this example.
    
    If I'm misinterpreting Rachael's comments in .10, she'll have to
    let me know that.  As it stands, I think you haven't heard what's
    been said.
    
    DougO

.19>  experienced many men misinterpreting her actions.  Now, you go further,
.19>  and advocate she fight back, to expose the jerks.  You put the burden
.19>  for correcting an overall societal problem on one victim.  

No, I didn't, but you seem to think she has no recourse but to stay defeated.
All victims of this abuse need to fight back.  The difference now is that they
will have allies in their cause, i.e., other women, men, and Personnel.  It is
not hard to recognize jerks these days!

.19>  You completely ignore, again, the effects this would have on her
.19>  reputation and upon her career ("evaluation: doesn't work well with
.19>  peers ...") 

What good is her reputation and career if she has no self-esteem?  The jerks
took it away!  How would YOU advise that she get it back?  As far as evaluation
is concerned, do you honestly think she is better off now then before?  She
could just as easily get an evaluation: doesn't work well with peers, is
non-communicative, sullen, etc.

.19>  Think about what would REALLY happen if a woman really
.19>  vehemently objected to every sexist jerk that accosted her.

Now you're making sense!  The question is, are you gonna stand with them or just
patronize them?

.19>  She would get the blame, not the jerks.  

She's gonna get blamed for being friendly?  If she is friendly to everyone, it
will soon be perceived as her nature and reputation.  What's the jerk to do in
this case?  How did she single HIM out to be friendly to?

.19>  If you haven't seen this reality, you aren't noticing the same sexist 
.19>  reality I am.  

So, you're the expert are you?  Don't forget there exist many realities out 
there...

I've noticed it, too.  In my experience, most people who aggressively 
refuse to yield or acknowledge my existence (I'm male) are women.

Interesting.  I always assumed that it was a part of the old gender 
training that some women refuse to let go of.  A kind of mixture of 
pseudo-feminist "power" and pre-feminist "I get the right of way 
because I am a woman."

I dunno.  But I do have to admit that I notice the same thing.  Most
men will yield, and they are almost never oblivious to who is coming
at them in the halls.  (I often wonder if my basketball experience
taught me to use peripheral vision and to be aware of other people's
positions; a kind of "court awareness.") 

						--Gerry

    No, Don, I haven't offered unsolicited advice to anyone, to be perky
    or whatever.  I've suggested that what she has SAID needs to be
    UNDERSTOOD, not that she needs any advice from the likes of me or
    of you.  I've suggested you RE-EVALUATE what she said.  Nope, advising
    someone who's made a personal decision about her own career options
    is NOT something I'm arrogant enough to do.  You're entitled to
    your opinions and your advice-giving, of course.
    
    DougO

    Well, do you think she is right in changing the way she acts?
    Looks to me like when these women need our support, you will be safe e
    far away.

    
    Well, my theory is that it's some new assertiveness technique that
    they're reading in one of the many men-vs-women "self help" books
    in vouge these days, to get back after years of "inferior" status.
    
    Humor them, smile, let them pass as a well bred gentleman always has
    and always will.                      
    
    A beard, spreckled with grey, helps...

Interesting responses from both sexes, U.S. and non-U.S...

My own experience is that *people* in general have become much less
courteous.  I've had a lot of doors slammed in my face by people who were
too rude to hold it for a second, and have almost been plowed over by
people walking side-by-side on stairways or hallways.  [BTW, I hold doors
open for anyone I notice is right behind me.]

I am one of those people who smiles and says hi to everyone I pass in teh
hallway who I'm acquainted with.  Historically, I've gotten responses from 
maybe 25%.  

Another discourtesy I've noticed here is people's habit of whizzing by in
the corridor and saying hi without stopping, so by the time I glance up to
see who it was, they're either long gone, or all I get is a glimpse of the
top of their head.  That's not what I call a genuine greeting.

RE suits vs. non-suits:  I just moved from a 'jeans 'n' sneakers' building
to a 'suit 'n' tie' one.  I've only been here a month, but I have to say
that the casual building was more courteous.  I don't try to plow anyone
over when I'm walking down the hallway, but I won't yield or duck into a
cubicle to get out of the way of a group of people walking 3 abreast,
either.  If they're being rude and blocking the hallway/stairway, I make
*them* move (with a direct "Excuse me").

It seems to be either a matter of group vs. single person, or mindless
oblivion to one's surroundings.  But it certainly would make work more
pleasant to have more smiles around.  IMO, smiles are not perceived as a 
come-on if the smiler is fair about smiling/greeting  both sexes.  And
it doesn't take too many trips around the block to learn the difference
between a casual smile and a come-on smile.  

cfn,
deb  8-}

    re .23, Don-
    
    >    Well, do you think she is right in changing the way she acts?

    What I think is hardly what matters.  We have nowhere near enough
    information about Rachael's circumstances to tell her to charge
    straight at sexists head-on.  All we have is HER AWARENESS, that
    to be extremely friendly has resulted in her being perceived as
    making passes, and HER DECISION, that doing so is hazardous to her
    career.  What I think is that someone who analyzes her own situation
    deserves my respect enough not to second-guess her.  
                   
    >                 -< What kind of support do you give? >-
    >    Looks to me like when these women need our support, you will be 
    >    safe e far away.

    What I think is that supporting THIS woman in THIS case means accepting
    her own judgement about her own options.  Anything else is patronizingly 
    implying that I know her situation better than she does.  Your half-
    baked analysis of MY MOTIVATIONS is uncalled for, incorrect, and unwelcome.
    Don't presume to tell me about supporting "these women" 'whenever'
    when your notion of support is to give them advice to be "perky".
        
    DougO

    Regarding people blocking the way:
    
    I have often driven by MLO,and HLO during lunch hour. The joggers and
    walkers are 3 and 4 deep into the middle of the road. I have often had
    to stop and veer around them carefully. How rude. I did notice that 
    these people were both male and female. 
    
    Regarding saying hello:
    
    In February I changed from a typical 'white collar' position to that of
    a typical 'blue collar' position. When I wore a skirt, people in passing
    would nod or smile or say hello. When I have my bluejeans on and I meet
    the same type of people I'm not even given the time of day. Funny thing
    is that now I make 25% more than I did then but people can't see
    that. There's terrible classism at Digital. Having changed from a wage
    class 4 to a wage class 2, I realize that more and more. Although I
    have never been interested in what people think of me and the way I
    can't help but have the utmost disrespect for a person who exersizes
    the type of shallowness described above.
    
    Kate 
    
                                                   

    And I always thought people in Digital where very friendly.
    Maybe what has been said sofar doesn't only apply to Digital?
    
    I used to work for a pharmaceutical company and there the seperation
    between people with a degree and those without was strictly maintained.
    With Digital in Holland I find most people being polite, helpfull and
    friendly.
    People blocking my way in the railway station is a different story
    though.
    
    Charles

    Wow!  I had no idea that people would have such feelings about my
    decisions!  Actually, it's nice that people care!

    FYI - how I changed my behavior:

    I DO smile at people whom I know and I'm myself, (friendly), when
    around people in my own development group.  I just don't smile at
    people whom I don't know.  I used to work for an awfully sexist company 
    so that's where I "learned" to act this way.  I was told, by the director 
    of personnel, that my promotability was directly affected if
    peoples perceptions of me didn't match my abilities.  In other words, 
    try to look and act like an engineer, as defined by him. (Whatever that
    means.)  So, after alot of soul searching, I decided that my self-image
    was based on peoples intellectual opinions of me more than people's
    physical opinions of me.  My self image does not rest on whether
    people find me generally friendly and/or attractive.  My husband
    finds me attractive and that's all that matters.  People who know me, 
    know that I'm friendly.

    I know that this isn't what the base note was about, but I felt that
    some people here should have an explanation.
    Thanks, DougO, for your support.  And I understand where the other man
    was coming from, (who said I should stay perky).  My mom said the same
    thing.  But neither one of you have had the experiences that I have.  I
    haven't lost anything by changing my behavior.  So far, I really like
    Digital.  (I've been here for 7 months.)  Thanks for your concern, but 
    it's really not that bad only being friendly to people I know!  
    (it is regretable though.)

    Rachael

    

    Well.  Let's see.  I've just noticed what I do in the halls.  When I'm
    feeling upbeat, I smile at people.  I think it was mentioned somewhere
    (maybe womannotes?  I forget) that women always smile at people.  In
    fact, it seems expected, because when I meet people's eyes and don't
    smile they look perturbed or annoyed.  Women are supposed to smile at
    other women, at men, at babies, at dogs.....it's just somehow (I don't
    know why, but I've noticed it recently and other women corroborate
    this) assumed.
    
    So I smile at people when I'm feeling upbeat.  Because it seems the
    thing to do, and I often mean it.  But what about when I don't?  What
    if I'm feeling down and smiling isn't something I feel like doing? 
    Well, other people seem perturbed if I look dour at them when I meet
    their eyes - so the likely option is - I look at the floor.  I mean, I
    don't get in people's way or anything, I'm looking where I'm going (in
    fact, the only time I've seen people not move aside or notice when
    people want to get by is when there are several of them and they're 
    all wrapped up in their conversation in the hallways) - but I just
    don't want to smile - so I don't meet their eyes.  Could be I'm
    unhappy, could be I'm focusing on something I need to do, could be I'm
    preoccupied with work and have many tasks I'm trying to
    prioritize....but for whatever reason I don't feel like smiling....
    
    In addition, I'm slightly nearsighted - so even if I *am* looking, I
    don't always recognize someone unless they're about 20 feet away
    (particularly if I just got up from a long time at the terminal
    screen)...
    
    So that's why you may find me not meeting peoples' eyes and smiling
    in the hallways sometimes....
    
    -Jody
    

	When I see a phalanx of people, (it seems to be usually, but not
    always, women) coming at me in the hall, rather than back up against
    the wall to prevent a collision, I wait until we're 3 or 4 steps apart,
    and then I just stop and let them go around me. It works every single
    time.   Took me a little longer to figure out what to do when you get
    behind a group like this and they're moving only slightly faster than a
    glacier.  What I do is say, "Excuse me, coming through!" in a voice
    slightly louder than my normal speaking voice.  This has also been
    uniformly successful.  I think courtesy goes both ways -- I show it,
    and I also expect it.  If I don't get it, let 'em walk around.

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