Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    It ain't fair to split up a topic.
    
    Old parents (especially fathers) were being criticized
    from the kid's point of view as being unfair to the kid.
    it's not a rathole to discuss whether an old father is
    unfair to the kid.  Let the discussion of old fathers
    continue in the old topic, including what's fair for
    the kid.
    
    If somebody wants to talk about whether every kid should
    get a new Schwinn when kid X gets a new Schwinn, then 
    do it here, but let's keep the fairness of having an old
    father in the other topic.
    
    Bill
    

    I have six kids..  boy! have I heard "that's not FAIR!" often...
    
    I swore I'd never buy my kids a car.  but, when my oldest daughter was
    a senior in high school, we did.  I was so she could travel to college
    (she just "couldn't" ride the bus!)
    
    Then, having set the prescedent, each other kid got his own car, too. 
    After all, what's fair is fair.  Right.
    
    Of course, my son's car wasn't as good as his sister's.  And this kid's
    car had more expensive repairs than that kid's.  But, we gotta be fair,
    right?  Can't not do for one what we did for the others.  Then when my
    son burned his car up because he "forgot" to put in oil and the car was
    totaled, he still needed college transportation.  So, a replacement was
    in order.  Right?  Sure.  gotta be fair...after all the other kids
    still had their car.  
    
    Of course, the fact that this kid got this amount of help for expenses
    while in college means that the other kids have to have the same help. 
    and when Steven and Patrick and Dana got to go to band camp those last
    summers in high-school, of course Kami just HAS to go this year...even
    when there's no money.  because it's FAIR.
    
    I'm SICK OF FAIR!  
    
    My step daughter's college is going to be paid for because her mom
    feels it's her responsibility and it's her money.  My kids are mostly
    doing college on their own..  is that FAIR???
    
    If I NEVER hear "that's FAIR" again, it'll be too soon!
    
    
    tony

    Tony,
    
    It sounds like you're being fair to everybody except yourself!
    Being fair doesn't mean doing exactly the same for every kid just
    because you did it that way for one. 
    
    Kids are different and have different needs. If you had one child that
    needed $100,000 worth of medical care, would you think it fair to spend
    that same amount on all of them? If you had one kid that needed
    tutoring in math would you then hire tutors for rest? 
    
    Situations change over time. It's nice to think that you will
    treat everybody exactly the same, but life doesn't always work out that
    way. You may have more money or less money available to spend on the
    5th child than you did for the first. Suppose you got laid off? Or
    inherited a million? Or you or your wife got sick or died? How you
    treat your kids would surely be affected by these events. This may
    not be "fair," but that's the way life is. 
    
    Bruce

    In my household, "That's not fair" from a kid translates as "I don't
    like that." It has only that much intellectual validity, i.e. none. My
    response is usually something to the effect "That's how it is."
    
    I have a "fairness" complaint myself. I spent my youth doing household
    chores. Dad put me to work even before I was useful, to teach me the
    skill. My wife's family had live-in help, however, and she never lifted
    a finger, so she's bestowing this privilege on her children. Nevermind
    that my mother-in-law never lifted a finger, and my wife has to do a
    GREAT deal around the house. And sometimes when I'm pushing the vacuum
    or clearing the dishes I wonder when it's going to be MY turn to get
    some services.
    
    A similar issue is the payment for college. My parents kicked in half
    of my first year, and from there on out it was working and loans. It
    took six years to complete undergraduate, and I just finished paying
    off my loans LAST YEAR. My wife, however, received a free ride from her
    parents, and that's the precedent she'd like to follow. A complicating
    feature is the failure of the ex-husband to pay more than about $2000
    of the $50,000 in child support he's supposed to have sent during the
    last seven years.
    
    How do you handle this intergenerational equity issue? My parents did
    it, so I feel obligated too. Yeah, well my parents didn't! It might be
    accentuated in my household, because the children aren't mine (neither
    biologically nor in terms of their loyalty and affection). It must
    arise in other households, however. What's your solution?
    
    I tend to treat it as a voluntary contribution: the girls can earn my
    support, by the way they treat me and their mother, by their attitude
    towards education, and by their general level of effort. By this rule,
    one kid makes my "get support" list and the other two don't (so far...
    it's early). Is this fair?
    
    It's fair if you can articulate a principle which you apply, e.g. we'll
    send kids who meet our standards.
    
    IMHO - Hoyt

    Try substituting the word appropriate for the word fair and I think you
    will find the 'ITS NOT FAIR!" screeching dissolving.  Fair is often
    NOT the point. Appropriate is the point, and from a kids point of view
    fair means equality even though equality in the context may not be 
    appropriate.  

    Fair to me, encompasses much more than the "measurable" value that
    people put on it.  What I mean is that most people think of fair
    in terms of money or time: "mom spent $40 on a new shirt for Jane,
    she better spend atleast $40 on  one for me" or "When jane was 16,
    she could (x), why can't I now that I'm 16".  Well, every child
    is different and has different needs.  My mom spent a lot more time
    helping me to do things when I was in high school than she ever
    did for my sister.  I was always very active in plays and my senior
    year they weren't going to have one.  I talked to mom about it,
    and she mobilized some other parents and managed to convince a teacher
    to take on the task.  She then helped make or alter costumes, did
    makeup, helped design the scenery, etc, etc.  It ended up, actually,
    that the flats were stored (and still are) in our barn.  She never
    did anything like that for Amy- because Amy was only in one play
    and it didn't mean as much to her.  But, if Amy had needed mom or
    dad, they would have been there.  She just didn't need them like
    I did.  As far as I know, Amy never cried "not fair"!  Being fair
    to your kids means giving them each what they need.  People do not
    mature at the same rate, and what is good for one kid may not be
    good for another.  Although every kid at some point goes through
    the spend-the-same-amount-on-each-of-us phase, hopefully they'll
    learn in time that there's so much more to it than $$$.
                                                           
    KarenKay                                                       
                                                           
                                                           

    	I see fair as equal, not the same. If I buy an ice cream for
    my daughter and her friend and not for my other two children, is
    that unfair?? I would say that it's cruelty on my part to subject
    them to that. One the other hand, if I'm making excellent money
    at the time my oldest child gets her license and I purchase a two
    year old car for her, but in the future I can only purchase 8 year
    old cars for the other two, that's fair. It would be fair if I couldn't
    afford any car.
    
    	When I was a supervisor/manager I was called a p***k, SOB, and
    a horse's patoot at times, but every person that ever worked for
    me said I was fair. I always treated my employees the same. No special
    priviledges, no pets.....People like to know that they're being
    treated equally.....that's fair.
    
    
    Ken

    .7  I think you have oversimplified it.  You say you would buy a 
    new car for kid 1 if you could afford it but not for kid 2 if you
    could not afford it. I don't see that as equal, and, by YOUR definition
    therefore unfair.  It may well be appropriate to buy kid 1 a car but
    not kid 2 because you can no longer afford it.  By my definition that
    is appropriate and therefore fair.  Comments?  

    I'm having great difficulty with this string, probably because I'm one
    of those whiney kids that maintains I'm not being treated fairly.  I'm
    44 and my siblings are 42 and 46.  We're still not being treated
    fairly, and it sucks!
    
    For example:
    My parents provided a total of $500 toward my college education, while
    paying _all_ of my brothers' college expenses.  The reasoning was that
    they were males and as men would need their education more than I
    would.  After all, my husband would support me.
    
    After schooling was over, my parents bought several cars for my
    younger brother and financed a house for my elder brother (at lower
    than bank interest rates, and if he missed a payment of two, "well, you
    know, he was strapped for money that month.  We don't want the house
    payments to be a burden on him.").  When I asked for help in buying a
    home after my divorce, I was told to go to a bank, 'cause bank interest
    rates were what my parents would charge me anyway.
    
    Today neither of my brothers is fully employed and both are somewhat
    dependent on my parents to subsidize their life styles.  In the
    meantime, beyond token Christmas presents, I haven't gotten a penny
    from my parents since I was 21 years old.
    
    Am I bitter?  I have been, and strings like this still bring it out. 
    Today I'm struggling with my conscience over who will pay for the
    golden wedding anniversary celebration my parents have coming up.  And
    I dread the day they become dependent on us for their support or care. 
    As the only daughter, I'm expected by family tradition to be the
    primary care provider.  But I don't feel like I owe them anything.  Let
    my brothers provide for them in their old age.  It's only fair!
    
    As a result of the residual feelings from my childhood, I bend over
    backwards to treat my two children completely equally.  I budget the
    same amount for each of them for birthday and Christmas presents. 
    Because one likes expensive things, he only gets one or two presents. 
    Because the other only wants inexpensive things, she gets five or six
    presents.  But the $$ spent are equal.  She's in college now, and I'm
    keeping track of how much I've contributed toward her education.  I
    intend to contribute the same amount toward my son's future, too.  He
    probably won't go to college right out of high school, but the money
    will be there for him for schooling or worthwhile travel or a beginning
    downpayment on a home someday.  Even if I have to go into debt when
    that time comes.
    
    I know what it feels like to be treated unfairly by parents, and I'm
    not talking about "she got a bigger piece of cake than I did." I'm
    talking about obvious favoritism.
    
    I know the world and life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean I can't be.
    
    Karen  

    RE: .9
    
    Karen, your folks may not have done a fair job of rearing you and your
    brothers but I think you became a better, more responsible person than
    your brothers did.
    
    In an odd way, the unfairness to you was better for you.
    
    Although I well understand that the inequity was a bitter experience.
    
      Margaret

    re .9 Karen I can relate to your experience except it was the inverse!
    Because I am a male I was expected to take care of myself completely
    while my sister was GIVEN TWO houses, one worth almost $ 1,000,000.
    My parents didn't contribute even a dime to my college education, I
    went thru on the G.I. bill and my own resources.  Yes, perhaps I am
    a better person for it. My sister remains semi-dependent on my parents
    in spite of the two houses and I am completely on my own and have been
    for MANY years.  But it pushes my bitter pills too when I visit her
    and walk into her unmortgaged mansion while my wife and I scratch 
    every month to make the less than 1/10 value home mortgage payment.
    I have worked hard to not hold it against my sister because its not
    totally her fault,.... but I thought and still do think she should have
    said NO a few times, not unless her brother was treated more fairly.
    I don't think this fits my appropriate model either.  My father is 
    heavy in to descrimination in that women are fragile things that need
    to be provided for totally by men.    Jeff

    
    	When we talk about things being fair or unfair we're
    	working from an unstated proposition that there are
    	certain rules about life.  Sure there are any number
    	of things that have happened to me that I wish hadn't
    	or vice versa, but I've yet to find the volume which
    	spells out how things *should* or *shouldn't* occur.
    	("I *should* have the same as he has."  "Show me where
    	that's written as law.")
    
    
    	"No one ever said life was fair.  It's only fairer than
    	death.  That's all."
    				     --	William Goldman
    
    
    ralph

    I'm reading a book called "An End to Innocence, Facing Life
    Without Illusions", by Sheldon Kopp.  (This is probably my third
    time through it in the last five years.)
    
    I find it to be a great book for me, because it helps
    me look at a lot of those assumptions that underlie
    what is "fair."  The author says that we adopt these
    assumptions (about a lot of things) and then when they
    don't turn out the way we expected, we feel victimized,
    cheated, short-changed, etc.
    
    It seems that every time I make some personal growth
    change in my life, I need to reread this book and cheer
    myself on with it.
    
    Bantam Book, published in 1978.
    
    Bill

    I found that I could accept life -- as it really is -- much more easily
    once I accepted the fact that life *isn't* fair.
    
    On the other side, I like Karen's statement from a few back: 
    
    	"Life may not be fair, but that doesn't mean I can't be."
    
    					andrew

    I think a little adversity makes a person a better person. The couple
    of notes in here (small smaple) would indicate this.
    
    'Fair? the world isn't fair! That's why there are different bra sizes!'
    
    loose quote by actress (child at the time) Quinn Cummings in the movie
    The Goodbye Girl.

    GOD BLESS THE CHILD WHO HAS HIS/HER OWN!!!!
    

Along the same lines as what Bill was saying, I found the book "I am 
Not a Victim" to be a good lesson in what is "fair" and what isn't.  
The author is Louie Nasannay.  I think that "it isn't fair" is an 
attitude that a lot of people lock into when they are not taking 
responsibility for their lives.  It can be part of a victim mentality.

In many, many situations, "fairness" is a moot point.  Things happen.  
Then we decide the most effective way to respond to them.  Period.


							--Gerry

    My kids dont bring up whats fair anymore. I ve told them that life is
    not fair and they should get used to it. We do discuss however what is
    appropriate for a particular kid at a particular time. Lets take cars
    and drivers liciences for instance. I start teaching my kids to drive
    as soon as they can see out the window and reach the pedles at the
    same time(around 8 or 9). My oldest daughter got her licience at 15
    the youngest got hers at 18. they both bought their own cars(they
    borrowed money from me and paid me back). My youngest boys(age 10 and
    13) asked me when they would get their liciences. I told them I didn't
    know. It would depend on their grades, and level of maturity maybe 16
    maybe 18. They will buy their own cars and we(not they) will pick
    them out. My kids have different rules and different allowances and
    they know why their different. They are different people and thoes
    differences have to be recognized. One likes skateboards the other
    likes remote controlled cars. One likes a bike with handbrakes the
    other likes foot brakes. My daughter is getting interested in target
    and combat handgun shooting(she's 23). Different kids different
    personalities, different toys. So I do not get the same things for my
    kids or spend the same amounts of money on them or let them have
    whatever they want. Some will say thats not fair but I think that
    it would not be fair if I didn't recognize the differences in my kids
    and didn't teach them to be aware that everyone is different. 
    
                                       

    .18 You pretty well summed up my way of thinking about fairness.
    
    Jeff