Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    How about some honest talking?
    Like....
    "I feel that I'm getting mixed signals from you. When you do X,
    I feel that you're suggesting Y. When you do A however, it feels
    like you're suggesting B. I am feeling very awkward therefore -
    because I don't want to offend you or make a dork of myself in the
    long run, can you tell me which set of signals I should believe, or can
    you stick to sending out one flavour or the other?"
    
    Maybe that's a bit too blatant, huh?
              
    The following is *very firmly* just my own opinion and experience....
                                  
    I've played games like that before. I didn't realise that
    I was doing it at the time, and it wasn't meant to be deliberately
    hurtful (if that's any consolation). 
    For me it took a lot of self-work, and unlearning of ways that I'd 
    learned to act around men from when I was very young, to stop doing it.
    I was conditioned into certain behaviours that weren't healthy
    or honest, as I believe many women are. 
    Many of us, though, are now becoming self-aware enough and willing to 
    put in the hard work necessary to get rid of that conditioning.
    It takes a long time, and isn't easy. It may take a real shock to
    shake someone who plays those games into seeing their behaviour
    another way.........
                                                         
    'gail
    
    
    
    

    Yeah, I've got plenty of comments!  The "man" in this scenario sounds
    incredibly passive, with very low self-esteem, little self confidence,
    a suspicion of women and an anger that he has to "go through them" to
    get to their goodies.  
    
    What this man is seeing is nothing different than what goes on between
    same sex people and between animals of all species - the strong
    dominating the weak.  It's nothing inherent in only women.  You offer
    your throat, someone's going to cut it, sooner or later.
    
    Since when does a woman hold all the power to "make" a man interested
    or not?  Good heavens.  What about the man's power?  What about
    charming a lady in whom HE is interested?  What about making HER day
    a little brighter?  It seems this guy is interested only in himself and
    in only those women who hint that they might do something good for him.
    This seems pretty sad to me.   
    
    He should find someone in whom HE is interested, for his own reasons, 
    and simply be friendly and when the time is right, suggest lunch or 
    whatever.  She either says yes or she says no but she has NO power to 
    "make" him look like a fool.  How?   Even if she turns out to be married 
    and declines, so what?   I'm sure she'd be charmed and flattered and if
    the guy can take a no without going all to pieces and assuming it means
    that he's lecherous pond scum, an enjoyable friendship could even ensue.
    
    But I get the impression that scoring is at the heart of it in this man's
    mind and if his tiniest display of interest doesn't set him immediately
    on the road to success, he feals cheated and/or exposed and/or used by
    women who will giggle about him during their coffee breaks.  It sounds 
    rather paranoid.  Don't just react, act!  Call some shots of your own!
    Probably every one of these women has been "used" by a male in a much
    deeper sense, after all!  The man in the basenote is merely afraid to 
    make a date for fear of being used.  Most women have made love and been
    used!  And they survive and even make love again.  So get a grip.
    
    My advice would be to calm down.  Women are merely people just like
    anybody else and most would prefer a friendship with a nice guy to have
    a chance to grow into something more over time.  But if this man never
    offers a woman friendship, (but merely waits for what he assumes are
    mating signals), he is likely to get the kinds of responses he
    sees in the base note.  It's always crystal clear to me what exactly a
    guy is interested in when he approaches.  And the ones who are open and
    friendly are far preferable to the ones who wait in the shadows, who
    search my face and my words looking for a green light to home plate.  
    Truthfully, I'd probably be tempted to have a little fun with a man who 
    thought so little of me too!  What the heck, why not? 
    
    Have some dignity, assume the woman you'd like to approach has some 
    dignity and act accordingly.   Nothing is more alluring than a sincere 
    expression of like.  And nothing will get one treated with dignity more 
    quickly than treating others in kind.  There are just too many head 
    trips and assumptions and all kinds of games going on here for said man 
    to find a real relationship with a real woman.  True love is not for
    the faint of heart.  You will have to put yourself on the line to get
    it, frightening as that sounds.  But it can be done with class and
    dignity and one does NOT have to slink off back under a rock if love
    doesn't immediately occur as a result.   Everyone wants love - even the
    women who tease men they sense are easily teasable and deserving of
    little else.  He should be someone she, (and he himself!), can be proud 
    of and things will definitely start to change.

    re .2 - I love reading your notes.  I couldn't have said it better.
    

    re .2
    
    Somehow, I don't think you're the type of lady I was talking about in
    .0.
    
    I'm generally pretty forthright when I take the initiative as you
    suggest.  I was talking about a scenario when the lady seems to be
    taking initiatives that turn out to be bogus.
    
    Very entertaining, Mary, but kind of a straw man argument in the final
    analysis.
    
    Craig

    RE: .2  
    
    This IS MENnotes ya know... isnt he allow to discuss HIS FEELINGS?
    or is that still considered taboo......
    
    Oh... sorry... how unPC of me..... please, continue....  Continue
    telling us low self esteem, whimpy males how to feel.....

    re .6
    
    If Ms. Ciccolini thinks my feelings are inappropriate, there's nothing
    wrong with her saying so.  I said my piece, she said hers.
    
    Magnanimously,
    
    Craig

    RE: Last
    
    True.  I was merely stating that her entry, to me, was rather rude and
    inconsiderate.  You asked an honest question, looking for honest
    answers.. If that is her honest answer, then so be it.  
    
    RE: the topic
    
    Although I have been married for five years, I still "look" around and
    I personally see those "mixed signals" that you reference.  No, they
    are not directed towards me, but I am not brain dead, I can see them.
    
    I think that men AND WOMEN, no matter what others think, like to play
    these little games.  I think that flirtatious games have no place in
    the work area, and furthermore, are rather self destructive.  A person
    could be on the edge of "nutsville" and "break" because of someones
    need to toy with him.
    
    

> I was talking about a scenario when the lady seems to be taking 
> initiatives that turn out to be bogus.

Well that's just life, isn't it?  People do all sorts of things and
we have no control over it - only over our reactions.  Feeling "foolish"
isn't a reaction I would think one would want to have to a person who's
acting like a child.  Just move on until you find someone of your own
caliber.  But I suspect the underlying question is along the lines of
"how can I get such a woman to back up her flirtatious behavior?" and
that to me seems just as futile a pursuit as what you hear in women's
advice columns time and time again in various forms - "How can I get
him to marry/commit/say he loves me?"  The answer to both is the same.  
You can't get anyone to "pay up" or "make good" on their hints or promises.
You either allow yourself to be pushed around, select your friends un-
wisely or you don't.  Everyone in the world deals with the same 'general
public'. Some get scorched, some survive.  It's everyone's choice and
it's my belief that self-esteem and self confidence make the difference
between which one happens most often.

> If that is her honest answer, then so be it.  

Thank you, Al.  Why would you think that this would be anything *but* my
honest answer?  Cuz you didn't like it?

    
    re -.1
    
    I don't think the base noter is as cynical as you seem to be.

    
    Sandy-
    
    I really didn't think Craig was upset or feeling 
    foolish because he was unable to score, and I don't
    think that he was trying to find ways to make women 
    "make good" on these mixed signals he was referring
    too.  As to feeling foolish when somebody of the
    opposite sex plays these little head games with you, 
    I don't think the bit about self-confidence really
    applies.  I am pretty confident, and it's very
    confusing and disturbing when somebody you've have
    taken an interest in, who sends you similar signals,
    turns out to be playing games for whatever reasons
    they may have (I find that the game playing behavior
    is usually indicative of a low-self esteem, and this
    self-ego boosting is a way of becoming superior [in
    one's own mind] to the victim, be it a male or female).
    Perhaps I didn't understand what Craig was trying to
    state, but I thought Craig was questioning why some
    people do this and how can he spot the sincere overtures
    from the insincere ones.
    
    Craig,
    
    If that's what you were asking, I wish there was an
    easy answer.  The best I can offer is to try to have
    frank discussions with the person in question and 
    take it from there.  However, if somebody does spurn
    your advances because their purpose in coming on to
    you would be to play these head games, I'd try not to
    lose too much sleep over it, because that person was
    obviously not deserving of your company/friendship to
    begin with.  I know,easier said than done, but I hope
    this helps.
    
    Christine

    
    Wasn't that a hit song from Journey? ... or was it Head Games...?
    
    

    
    	Head Games was done by Foreigner.
    

    
            <<< QUARK::NOTES_DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]MENNOTES.NOTE;1 >>>
                         -< Topics Pertaining to Men >-
================================================================================
Note 478.15A              Headhunting and mixed signals                 15 of 15
FOX::SIMPSON  "I will not draw naked ladies in class" 3 lines  24-JUL-1990 23:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RE:  .2

	"Don't have a cow, woman."

			-Bart

Re .11 and .9

You've got it about right, Christine.  I'm very happy, actually, to have
Sandy's kind of strong counterpoint coming into this topic, but I'm not
inclined to spend a lot of time defending statements that I do not make
or motivations that I do not have (at least not that I'm aware of).  But
I cannot fault Sandy for suggesting that the motivations may exist 
somewhere in the depths of my ego, not to mention my id.  I don't have
any specific agenda other than to find out if other people know what
I'm talking about and what, if anything, they do about it.  

So it's Sandy, not Mary.  I think there must be someone with a similar
surname named Mary in another conference I use (maybe SOAPBOX), and 
I thought it was the same person.

I see a problem in my base note that may have thrown Sandy a little off
the track: I try to talk about mixed signals and teasing all in the same
motion, and thus seem to say that one always implies the other.  It's
possible for a young woman (hypothetical, of course!) to develop an 
honest crush on a man (perhaps a much older man who would never think of
approaching her without a little prompting); maybe she'll think he's 
"neat" or "cute" and want to get to know him better, but she's not sure 
how far she really wants it to go.  

So she starts testing him to see how he reacts; she's really
trying to find something out, but doesn't want to be too blatant about
it, and perhaps it never occurs to her that the fellow finds her actions
pretty confusing.  She probably has no idea of the powerful effect such
behavior can have, and doesn't really think of herself as a manipulator.

Also in my base note, I describe the value-for-value, tit-for-tat way
that I tend to respond to mixed signals.  This can be a game in its own
right, of course; although it feels "real" to me, maybe the lady sees it
only as a game; i.e., she may see my reaction exactly the way I see her
action, and thus think I'm the one doing the jerking around.

It would be much better, of course, if such games were never played; 
unfortunately, human nature is the only game in town.  Trust me, Sandy, I
speak out of sadness, not desperation.

Craig

    I spent years feeling the feelings expressed in .0, and I don't think
    it was because my self-esteem was low (usually the opposite tendency
    prevailed) but because I was genuinely interested in NOT OPPRESSING
    anyone with my attentions. After the n-dozenth comment from my female
    friends to the effect of "God, I hate it when you're just being a
    *person* and this guy *comes on* to you!" I got so I was real tentative
    about making advances. Just to avoid the ambiguity without putting
    anyone on the spot, I more-or-less adopted the policy that she had to
    ask *me* out. (This fit well with my menist politics, too; it's about
    TIME women started taking more of the risks.) And I made a lot of money
    because it's hard to find baby-sitters on New Year's Eve ^).
    
    One cheap ploy that would settle things for me was to firmly place the
    initiative in her hands. "Let me know if you'd like to go out
    sometime." End-of-discussion. For woman I didn't run into frequently:
    "Here's my number; give me a call if you'd like to go out." Not a
    question: I didn't want them to squirm or (God forbid) start telling me
    that "my boyfriend wouldn't like that"... and I didn't want them to say
    "I'd sooner die than be seen with you." Woman, if you want to, take the
    initiative, otherwise be irrelevant, evolutionary-wise, for all I care.
    
    I must note that women called me up about 5% of the time, which no
    doubt reflects the cut of my chin (what chin?) but ALSO reflects the
    fact that, feminism or no, there's very few who put themselves out there.
    On the other hand, the women who had the chutzpah to call me up were
    the kind of women I enjoyed -- that self-reliance and initiative was a
    great basis for separating the women from the girls (*there's* an
    expression that needs more currency). And if they called me up, then
    they were unambiguously interested, and they NEVER had occasion to
    complain that I was putting moves to them. It was quite comfortable for
    all parties.
    
    Now I'm happily married (to one of those high-initiative women) and
    find myself doing something awkward. A few weeks ago, on vacation with
    wife and kids, I was apparently on my own at a beach party where this
    woman was an attractive sort and was gyrating in the general vicinity
    of where I was dancing with myself (B. Idol, 1980). "So," she starts,
    "are you from around here." Ohmigod. I reply FAST "No, actually I live
    in Brookline, MA, in a three-family house with my wife and children, we
    even have a station wagon, no dog though." She laughed right at me. "I
    get the picture." It was only a little awkward. I was determined to
    save her the ambiguity and humiliation, though, that is the
    characteristic lot of men in this not-really-feministized world.
    
    I recommend putting out *lots* of expressions of interest, and then
    turning the initiative over to the woman. That is, if you LIKE that
    kind of woman. It worked very well for me.
    
    - Hoyt
                                                                  

    re .18:
    
    Yes, and thanks, but do you call him up?
    
    Since this is MENNOTES, I guess it'S suitable to ask the question
    
        WHAT PERCENT OF THE TIME ARE YOU (SINGLE PERSON) TAKING THE
        INITIATIVE, I.E. ASKING OUT, NOT BEING ASKED OUT?
    
    I predict that men take the initiative 90% of the time, and women take
    the initiative 50% of the time. The apparent discrepancy will be
    because the women consider taking initiative to include smiling and
    saying hi and just being friendly... which is why .0 is confused.
    
    Let's try to head that off by defining "initiative" as saying out loud
    words to the effect of "Would you like to go out <at some precise
    time>".
    
    - Hoyt

    Hoyt,
    
    For many single women of my generation and many younger than I, there
    is still a serious social bar to asking a man out....there are still
    many women who feel that men won't respect a woman who asks him out,
    or that she will appear to be sexually available when she doesn't
    want to give that message.
    
    Bonnie
    
    (who is very glad, from stories she's heard, that she is happily
    married)

    re .19
    
    I would not consider it an "initiative" if a woman just says hello to
    me and smiles a lot; I'd call that "being civil".  If I sense that she
    is going out of her way to do so over a period of time, or starts to
    pop up behind me, or seems a little agitated when she sees me--and 
    seems to be pissed off at me for no reason at times-- I think I would
    call that a strong sign of interest.  If I then ask her out and she
    tells me she's going steady or whatever, I think I have been jerked on.
    This is pretty much the simplest case; it can get a lot more
    complicated.
    
    Craig

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Re .20 (Bonnie)
    
    The social constraint which women feel is there, I agree. I don't know
    where it comes from. Maybe it's appropriate. My response to getting a
    phone call is "Neat: she's interested in me (!) AND she has what it
    takes to pick up the phone." I suppose there are plenty of men who
    might think the caller is desperate and/or horny. As you probably know,
    the psychologists call this projection: given an ambiguous situation,
    we project our own attitudes into the picture. Princes (like ME 8^) will
    think the best of the caller, creeps will think the worst.
    
    One solution would be to avoid calling creeps. Of course, it's not
    always easy to distinguish the creeps, so the woman could TEST for
    creepiness in a controlled situation. SHE's making the call; she can
    set the agenda. A lunch date is always perfectly safe. An invitation to
    a dinner party can't go too wrong. If the guy doesn't appear respectful
    and/or makes inappropriate advances, then give him the old heave-ho.
    Since you're in charge of your dating life, you can do so with relative
    ease! You're not facing the alternative of another dozen Saturday
    nights with the VCR and a bowl of popcorn.
    
    It's scary to take the initiative. Men have had to go through that for
    years and years. There are certain assumptions when WE make phone
    calls, too. He doesn't respect me. He just wants one thing. These
    issues don't arise or go away because one party or the other picks up
    the phone. Fear is an excuse.
    
    IMHO - Hoyt

    re: .21  Craig
    
    I was personally surprised by the behaviour you would categorize as a
    "strong sign of interest":  going out of her way to say hi, popping up
    behind you, seeming agitated when she sees you, seeming pissed off with
    you.  I don't think that's so strong!  Maybe it is interest, may be it
    is light teasing, but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion that she
    is openly pledging that she wants you to ask and she will definitely go
    if you ask and she is completely unattached and ...
    
    Maybe a woman as you describe *is* going out with someone but finds you
    attractive and has no idea she's becoming visibly agitated (!) around
    you or is seeking you out.  Maybe she just wants to be friends with you
    and this is the type of friendship with men that she's used to.  Maybe
    she has a flirtatious personality and she acts like this with everyone.
    Maybe she doesn't have many friends and isn't sure how to handle making
    a new friend.
    
    I'm just surprised that at such (to me) mild signs of interest are seen
    by you as being so strong that you would think she's "jerking" you
    around by declining.  I'd say, give her the benefit of the doubt. 
    Wires may cross, but I don't think it's fair to assume that the woman
    would be doing it all deliberately.
    
    Furthermore, if you see this kind of thing all the time, it **could**
    be that you are looking for this type of woman without knowing it.  You
    should find one who doesn't hint but asks straight out!  (Easier said
    than done, I know...but they do exist.)  
    
    Pam

    re. .21 (Craig) -- Could some of the male members of the conference
    shed some light on the different signals you would expect to get from
    an individual (1) who is interested in you as a possible romantic partner
    and (2) who is interested in you as a possible friend?
    
    From the referenced note, I'd guess I've been unintentionally sending
    the wrong messages to certain men in my life.
    
    Re. the woman doing the asking, like Bonnie, I was reared at a time
    when this was a definite no-no.  A woman who did the asking was
    considered fast and available (probably for anything).  Fortunately, I
    was flexible, and as the social scene changed during the '70s and '80s,
    I became more willing to take the initiative when so inclined.  Met
    some pretty nifty men that way.  Also met some real jerks that way. 
    The worst of the real jerks were those whose egos couldn't handle a
    woman doing the asking, and weren't at all restrained in their
    expressions of distaste for a woman who would presume to be so pushy. 
    Had I been of a more retiring nature, the first encounter of this kind
    would probably have put an end to my asking.  But like the mouse that
    gets alternately rewarded and punished for seeking food through the red
    door, I kept on trying.  And the rest, as they say, is history.
    
    Some men can handle it; some can't.  Some women can do it; some can't.
    
    Karen

RE: .24
>   re. .21 (Craig) -- Could some of the male members of the conference
>    shed some light on the different signals you would expect to get from
>    an individual (1) who is interested in you as a possible romantic partner
>    and (2) who is interested in you as a possible friend?

Well, I'm not Craig, but I'll tell you that as far as I'm concerned the only
way that I'll interpret that a woman is interested in being a possible romantic
partner is if she isup-front about it.  Many years ago I used to consider being
friendly as being interested, but I found out that the error rate was so high
that it wasn't worth my asking and I now consider all such instances as if the
woman is just being friendly.

One of the hardest things when you see someone who appears to be attractive is
to find out who they are.  There are various ways of doing this; at work the
easiest is to be observant enough to notice the name on their badge.

Rich

    I saw something once, not too long ago, that pointed out the
    differences in what men and women consider as Interest vs.
    Friendliness.  It was intriguing, and offered a possible explaination
    for "mixed messages" or misunderstandings.
    
    Men and women were given a film to watch of male/female interaction.
    Men were much more likely to interpret a smile and or hello from a
    woman to a man as a sign of Interest (the interest that would lead to a
    date), while the women watching the same film interpreted it as
    Friendliness (being polite, etc.)   If memory serves, this was the
    smile of a woman to a stranger, such as she may pass on the street, but
    I suppose it would work in bars, the workplace, etc.
    
    Another example was the "is this seat taken?".  This was a real life
    example used to illustrate the differences in male/female
    interpretations of common gestures.  A man asked if a seat was taken
    next to a female passenger, who replied, quite honestly and innocently
    (aka she was not interested in the man as a possible sexual partner),
    "No, it isn't."  And she had no objections that the man sat there. 
    However, this gentleman read the gesture as a possible invitation for
    conversation and eventually hinted that they rendevous upon landing.
    The woman remained disinterested and the remainder of the discussion
    turned on how to dissuade the man from pushing the issue.
    
    I thought the article was somewhat illuminating.  I would personally
    hate to think that a smile and hello, or being friendly with a man (and
    I don't mean FRIENDLY as in flirtatious/come-hither) would be
    interpreted as some kind of advance.  I have smiled at passerby's when
    walking down the street and garnered some kind of comment unintended,
    but those occasions were few and far between, so I personally can't
    validate the theories presented in the article.  I did think the notion
    worth mentioning after reading the entry a couple notes back.
    
    ---kim

    re .26
    
    I would call those scenarios "asking in case she's interested;"
    I used to do that on occasion, but was never upset if it didn't
    go the way I hoped.
    
    Later,
    
    Craig

    "Ask in case she's interested" is analogous to the old golf adage,
    "Swing hard in case you hit it."

    I think talking is the only way to find out whether there
    is any mutual interest.  
    
    I offer some opinion or fact about myself and ask about her.
    Does she reply to the question?  Does she seem interested in
    learning more about me?  Does she look at me when she talks
    to me?  Does she seem to be enjoying what she is doing?  Does
    she like to talk?  What does she like to talk about?
    
    All of that can go on while walking to a meeting, from a meeting,
    at the cafeteria lunch table with others, while getting a cup of
    coffee.  All of it takes place with very low risk on the part of
    either person.  All of it is in the realm of finding out of there
    is a potential friendship.
                   ----------
    If there is a potential friendship, then long before I or she has
    to take a risk and ask to take the next step (something as simple
    as meeting for lunch as a two-some), I and she will already know
    what involvements we each have with other people.  She will know
    that I am two months into the grief of being dumped after a three
    year long wonderful relationship.  (which should make her cautious,
    as well as it makes me cautious)  I will know that she is ...
    
    We may be friends and enjoy some areas of interest and it may be
    clear that it can go only so far, because one or both want it to
    go only so far.
    
    (The above is in the context of work.  It could be in the context
    of meeting in the apartement building where we live, at the
    laundromat, in a church group, whatever.  If the meeting is brief
    and lasts only a few minutes, but it's pleasant, I'd part with,
    "Gee, this has been fun talking.  Maybe we can talk again like this?"
    If she seems of the same mind, I'd say, "I'll probably be doing
    this again next Monday evening."  THat gives her a chance to push
    for a specific time and place, or leave it up to a chancier meeting
    on next Monday evening, or simply say, "Oh, well I might see you
    there."  Which I would take to mean "I can't decide now, or I don't
    really want to follow up."  (All of this could be happening in the
    other direction, of course, with the woman taking the lead, and
    making the offerings, and me responding.)
    
    But trying to guess intentions from smiles and jokes, etc, seems
    like trying to swim while sitting on the beach.  You have to
    get in the water to swim.  You don't have to get in over your
    head, or in crashing surf, but wet is important.  If the water's
    too cold, too rough, too dirty, then you get back out long before
    you start swimming.  Talking is a way of getting wet before you
    start swimmming.
    
    Bill

    Hmm, I am curious as to how old the woman was who was "headhunting".
    Having just graduated from college, I have spent a lot of time with
    women between the ages of 18 and 22.  Many of them acted like this.
    I always thought it was a sign of insecurity.
    
    On the other hand, I had a friend who was *extremely* sensual. 
     There's no other way to put it.  But she acted this way towards
    everyone, male, female, 10, 40, 70.  Any person not knowing her
    or just meeting her would think she was hot for them.  But she didn't
    even know she was doing it, and used to get upset when guys would
    make passes at her "for no reason".
    
    I am an extremely friendly person, and find that (atleast this was
    true of the men at my college) men always thought I was making passes
    at them when I was only being friendly.  Try to watch this woman's
    behaviour with other people (male and female).  If she acts this way
    in general (ie: super friendly), then pass it off as her being super
    friendly.  If she acts this way only with men, stay away from her.
    If she acts this way only with you, ask her out!
                                                 
    KarenKay                                     

    re .30
    
    I quite agree with you.  When I wrote the base note and several
    followups, I was referring only the case when someone acts
    extra-friendly toward me and (usually) seems impatient with me
    when I don't respond immediately--and then, when I make a move,
    turns me down.  Typically, the turndown consists of telling me
    they are unavailable (going steady, engaged, whatever), usually
    accompanied by a startled, "I-can't-believe-my-ears" expression.
    Women who do this are usually young (I first started getting it
    at college or during summer jobs), but I've seen women in their
    30s and 40s do it too.
    
    Yes, there are women who just have generally flirtatious personalities,
    but you might just as well excuse men who have naturally bellicose
    personalities.  Both personality types cause an awful lot of
    unnecessary trouble.
    
    There's something else I want to say in reply to an earlier note, but
    I have to do something else now.
    
    Craig

    I think the whole process of putting yourself out there is easier if
    you do it a lot. The method I suggested a few notes back, namely invite
    her to invite you out, is fast and simple and won't ruin her life, so
    she probably won't make remarks or take actions which ruin yours. One
    of the lessons you get from doing this is that IT'S NOT PERSONAL.
    
    There are some mantras you can repeat to yourself to remember this:
    
       - All of us are assh*les
       - All of us have valuable, redeeming features
       - The odds that any given pair finds each other attractive is 1/100
       - If the pair DO have enough mutual interest to go out, then the
         odds of finding each other "permanently" attractive are 1/100.
    
    This is to say, that all of us have warts that may disqualify us, and
    virtues which may endear us, and the likelihood that any two people can
    accept each other's wart/virtue combos is pretty teensy, SO KEEP
    LOOKING (and work on the warts).
    
    My fifteen-year-old step-daughter is experiencing this: if the guy in
    whom she's interested doesn't respond in kind, she concludes that it's
    because she's worthless and ugly and so on. I wish I could counsel her
    to simply move on and try with someone else. I *do* advise her to feel
    comfortable taking the initiative. She'll eventually grow as cynical as
    I am, and then she'll find it's easy to put herself out there. When the
    odds are 1/10000 (you multiply them, right!?) of THIS one being THE
    one, then you should naturally EXPECT to fail a lot along the way.
    
    And you have to keep on fishin'
    
    - Hoyt

Since writing my earlier note I've remembered an occaision where a woman might
have been interested in me, but the environment caused me to question it.  The
instance was a woman in a sales position in a small store.  She was friendly on
a couple of visits after a major purchase which she helped me with.  Because
people in sales positions deal with the public I somewhat expect them to be a
bit more friendly than usuall, particularly to a past customer.  In a case such
as this out-right friendliness generally won't get me interested, the woman will
have to make the first move.

Rich

    re: .32
    Good point about the odds.  One can also use that to feel good about
    the ones that don't work out: "That one didn't work out, only 8,731 
    more to go!"  It also is *very* important to realize that it may not
    work out for reasons that have absolutely nothing at all to do with 
    you.  There is no way you can *make* somebody like you; all you can
    do is be yourself, have 'em take you the way you are, and see what
    happens.  At the age of 42, I occasionally wonder how *any* two people 
    can be together for more than 5 minutes without killing each other.
    I have no idea how I ever managed to find my wife, or how we manage
    to get along so well together.  I'm just very glad.
    

re .29

If it's that easy for you, you are probably one of those lucky people
blessed with a neutral, wildcard personality who makes friends easily
and hits it off well with almost anybody.  Your advice offers some nice
back-to-basics ideas, but reminds me a little of advising a stock market
novice to buy low and sell high.

I have found it extremely difficult to isolate certain people 1:1.  When
I really want to talk to someone and get acquainted, even if I'm
fairly sure of my welcome, they nearly always seem to be walking in the other
direction when I run into them, or they have someone with them.  If you
have no real work relationship with them, your intentions are pretty
obvious if you start visiting their office.  If you do have a work 
relationship, mixing in a personal relationship can progress or regress
into various messy situations--I have that on the best authority.  I
do approach fellow employees, because work is where I meet people, but
its risky on many levels.  I realize this sounds a little paranoid, 
but whenever you try to date a fellow employee, whether it works out well
or not, you risk creating a very awkward interpersonal situation that
can escalate into something serious--often more as the result of things
not said and done than anything that actually happens.

I hesitate to get down to cases, because they can be a little 
embarrassing to the other party, but I think this one is okay:

About 12 years ago, my office was about 15 feet from that of a very
attractive young divorcee.  She was friendly and laughed at all the
right times when I was being facetious or whimsical, and pretty soon
I was stopping by her desk fairly often (as did quite a few men in the
area).  We seemed to have a lot of common interests and opinions.  Best
of all, she said she hated dancing; I knew I had found the girl of
my dreams when I heard that.  We had talked about many personal things, 
including some of the details of her failed marriage, and she had never
mentioned a current SO, so I finally asked her out to dinner.  She
brightened up, said it was a nice offer, said I was one of several who
had asked her, but she wasn't in circulation at the moment.  She was
seeing someone exclusively for now, but they were having problems and
she hoped I'd stay in touch.  I was very impressed with her forthrightness
and felt that it had gone as well as it could have under the 
circumstances.  Nevertheless, the plot started to thicken.

I think the main problem for me was that I felt she might become 
available at any time, and I had to be right there when the time 
arrived, given the amount of competition I had.  I think she sensed
that feeling in our subsequent conversations; probably many of my
questions were pitched a little differently than before, and my ears
suddenly seemed a little bigger.  But things went basically as before.
One time we were talking about cars; I needed a new one; she offered to
let me take a drive in her Honda to see if I liked it.  I took her up on
it and, sensing a possible breakthrough, asked her to go out to lunch.
I should add here than I had noticed her spending quite a lot of time
with one fellow in particular, which had made me a little anxious.
Then a short time before lunch, she dropped by and said she had to 
cancel on the lunch because she had to do something (she told me what it
was; I don't recall exactly, but it seemed like something she could have
postponed).  We could take the drive during the early afternoon, but it
would have to be quick.  

The conversation during the drive didn't go well; she was very hard to
pin down on anything.  I gathered that her boyfriend was still there,
that she wasn't really in circulation but was looking around (the 
aforementioned "one fellow in particular" at work being the principal
lookee).  Later in the day, I overheard her talking to one of her
female friends near my office, saying that she really preferred younger men.  
I was double-digit years older than she, and suspected that I had been
intended to overhear that conversation.

So I pretty much gave up on her;  I didn't offer any ultimatum or tell
her I'd lost interest, I basically just backed off for about a month.  Soon I 
started getting angry looks that I did not understand at all, but that 
stopped when I started making small talk with her again.  But the 
quality of our conversation had clearly diminished, we seemed to be
boring each other talking the same stuff over and over, and my stop-ins
became much less frequent.  Then, one day, she stopped by my office and
burned the house down; I was supposed to stop following her around, stop
visiting her, stop looking at her, etc., etc., and just leave her alone.  
For the next year or so, oh did I leave her alone.  Eventually, we sort 
of reestablished a civil acquaintance, but I've never really felt comfortable 
around her since then.  She's married and a mother now, which sort of makes 
it all moot except for purposes of academic discussion.

So what's my point?  This is certainly a rather extreme case, but the
people who played it were both intelligent and essentially 
well-intended.  However, when you are attracted to someone and/or you feel
someone is attracted to you, even the most innocent actions and words
can be magnified.  And at the office or other closed-society situations,
you're pretty well locked in when things start to get ripe.  This 
certainly was not a case of headhunting; there were some mixed signals,
but they only occurred later.  I think it was a matter of a desirable woman 
becoming so overwhelmed with possibilities that she eventually had to do some
radical and perhaps arbitrary simplification of her life.  To use a
popular gardening metaphor, it was time for some serious pruning.

Craig