Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    I'm finding it difficult to respond to this note in case I hit the
    wrong tone, but here goes.....
    
    I have a friend with a similar problem.
    He's going to see his doctor for starters to see if there's a
    physical basis for it, like maybe unusually high testosterone
    levels....
    
    He has also looked inward, and feels that he's sort of conditioned
    himself into this "habit" as a response to his father (there's a
    long, complex story in there) - consequently he's also seeking
    counselling.                
    
    'gail
    
    
    
    he's also going for counselling. 

    Thanks gail you have'nt hit a wrong tone. I have thought about
    counceling but I've decided to try and take care of it myself so
    I don't have to explain to my wife who may not understand. Please 
    let me know if your friend finds out it was physical, I never gave
    that any thought. Maybe there are drugs to counteract the problem.
    KH

    I am under the impression that sex can be highly addictive.  It can be
    a terrific rush for some (what was that baseball player's name who
    pleaded he was addicted to sex?  And why do so many people log so many
    hours to those sex phone numbers in New York or whatever....?). 
    Anything can get compulsive.  I guess the time to take care of it is
    when you feel it's affecting your life to a degree where it's
    inconvenient, or is interfering with the way you want your life to be.
    
    -Jody
    

    Attempt at humor: I know how to cure it........A sledge hammer.
    
    
    But seriously folks: I have the same problem, but all the thoughts are
    towards my wife.  I used to have the problem with other women as well,
    but now all the thoughts are about my wife.  This has caused some
    problems around the house because my wife does not have the desire as
    much as I do, and sometimes I get to feeling that maybe I don't turn
    her on anymore.  That doesn't feel real good  because I know how much
    she drives me crazy.
    
    Mike

    I have heard that there is a 12-step program (don't know the
    name) that helps people who are obsessed/addicted to sex.
    Wish I had more info, but I don't.  Maybe the "self-help/
    hotline" section of your local paper, or even the local
    AA, Al-Anon, Overeaters Anon, etc group can tell  you if
    there is anything in your area.  I think the principle is
    the same as the other 12-step programs, in that the first
    step is to admit that you no longer have control of whatever
    the problem area is, etc.    Maybe others who are in
    12-step programs can fill in here.
    
    Bill
    

    I think there is a BIG difference between thoughts and actions. You
    seem to be controlling your actions well.  I have been reading alot
    lately about 'sex addictions'.  The sex drive is a normal biological
    drive, and, as such I have trouble understanding how one can be
    "addicted" to a bioligical function.  Taking drugs is a choice one
    makes about taking a foreign substance into ones' body.  How is sex
    equivalent to this?  I suspect you have a strong sex drive. What else
    is new to man?  Nature intends that we procreate and produces hormones
    to make us want to do just that.  I certainly can understand how you
    are having trouble directing that inborn drive. Its such a classic
    problem movies and books are written endlessly about people who have
    NOT been able to control this drive.  25% of your thoughts too much,
    maybe... but get an honest answer from most teenage males and I think
    you will find "most" spend an equivalent amount of time thinking about
    sex.   I think the real issue is that it is making you unhappy, and for
    that reason seeing a therapist might help you gain perspective.  Making
    ones sex drive "go away" in my opinion is roughly equivalent to trying
    to make the need to go to bathroom go away.  I don't mean to be crude
    in that example, but think about it, its a biological function thats
    inborn.  One can direct the drive, but without medications or an
    operation how is one to "make it go away"?
    
    

    Come on, comparing hyperventilating to an addiction is like comparing
    speeding in an automobile to a 'true addiction'.  I suppose we should
    define what addiction means. Is an addiction ANYTHING that one HAS to
    do compulsively?  If so, then perhaps the definition of addiction is
    quite broad.  Do people hyperventilate COMPUSIVELY?  I think the key
    to the definition of the word addiction is that the person has
    effectively lost control over their behavior.  The 'sex addict' noter
    has not lost control over his behavior from what I can see.  

Sexual compulsion can be caused by a lack of intimacy in one's life.  
If people have a problem in compulsively seeking out sex, they may 
want to see if there are ways in which they can allow themselves to 
become less controlling, more vulnerable, and more emotionally 
available on a day-to-day basis.

Compulsions are often caused by an aching need in some other area of 
one's life.  Sexual compulsion is often not about sex; it's usually 
about loneliness, lack of intimacy, low self-esteem, and lots of other 
things.  It's compulsive because the real need--way below the 
surface--isn't getting met by the activity.

It's like being hungry and trying to fill yourself up with potatoe 
chips.  Nutrition isn't met, and the hunger jumps right back at you a 
short time later.

							--Gerry

    
    Saltpetre is the traditional remedy..

    I think one reason that I thought about sex so much before I was
    married is that I love women.  The way they look, smell, feel, etc.
    Now that I'm married, I don't think about sex with anyone except my
    wife.  The reason is because I love everything about her, the way she
    looks, smells, feels, etc.
    
    
    Mike

    The technical medical definition of addiction has three components:
    
    	1) habituation - you need more to acheive the same effect
    	2) withdrawl - you suffer symptoms if you stop
    	3) overdose - too much is harmful (I'm not sure about this one)
    
    By this definition, what we are talking about is NOT an addiction. It
    could well be a compulsion or obsession though.
    
    	-- Charles

    Just to throw more fuel on the flames...
    
    Yes, there are 12-step programs for this, for both men and women.
    
    A good friend of mine, who is a gay male, got into this program,
    and it has done wonders for him. Whether of not it technically falls
    in line with the definition of addiction is irrelevant, because what you
    have is a human being with a problem that needs help, and the fact is
    that 12-step programs work. 
    
    Sex-aholism;
    
    It is a form of obssesive/compulsive behavior, which is a psychological
    defense mechanism involved with avoiding certain emotionally painful
    situations. For my friend, it came out that he had been sexually
    molested as a child, and had received some unhealthy messages about
    what was appropriate sexual behavior, and felt he had to use sex to
    get approval from others.
    
    This behavior is not really about sex; sex is the effect, rather than
    the underlying cause, (like many other addictions).
    
    -roger
    
    
    

    Re: .19
    
    OHHHH NOOOOO!!!
    
    I'm sorry, I take it back. .17 is WRONG, it's STUPID. Mike Z. is an
    IDIOT for agreeing with it.
    
    	Whew, I feel better now.
    	-- Charles

    .13 says what I was trying to say. Excellent description I think Gerry.
    .17 Also makes some good points about addiction.
    
    .12 I didn't state my position clearly .12 noter.  I have used the word
    addiction used inappropriately (IMO) too much lately.  I get the
    impression that if a person can describe a behavior as a

    .13  Gerry, you have brought up an aspect of the 'sexual addition'
    issue which illustrate the points well. I think sexual compulsion
    is a far better word describing many of the 'sexual addiction' cases.
    
    
    .17 Also brings up some of the points I believe are true.
    
    .12 Why do I get an angry response from you when I am trying to
    illustrate my points? Do I touch a sore point or something. 
    
    I still say... how can one be addicted to a biological function?
    I associate addiction to substance abuse, compulsion with an internal
    mental process which may be related to neurosis.
    
    This is all word games I know... but what other tool to we have to
    communicate with in notes?  
    
    Anyway, my points of view are intended to illustrate my opinions, not
    start an irate round of responses.  If you disagree, fine, please
    don't bother getting mad.    Jeff
    

    If one refers to the word addiction as a generic description of excess
    anything, then ok.  To get back to the point, I think the real issue
    is that his 'excess' attraction to women is causing him problems.
    Because of that counceling might well help.  The question 'do others
    have similiar experiences with sexual attraction".  My answer: Yes,
    I used to when I was in my twenties and thirties, but now my sex drive
    (I am 46) has diminished some (hormone levels dropping?) and I am not
    as tortured about unfulfilled desires as I used to be.  I certainly
    can relate to the frustration you experience.  Jeff

    re: basenote
                   I think this is one of the most important issues
    facing men and women these days. I don't consider this problem an
    addiction in the classic sense, but more an obsessive/compulsive
    behavior.
       I think the problem stems from the removal of the male from the
    home in the post-war era. That effectively removed the male from
    the support mechanism and base of spiritual power. The alienation
    from the home removed the intrinsic virility found in the natural
    accomplishments of the agrarian society. That along with the loss
    of real wealth (real estate) has left men with symbolic wealth to
    barter for symbolic love (sex). 
       The alienation of men from the home is also what has perpetuated
    the problem for so many generations. Our daughters have no example
    of how to deal with a man other than bartering for affections, and
    our sons have no examples of healthy male behavior at all. The last
    few generations set up this system under the mistaken idea that
    men cannot raise children, and that women need protection from the
    external world. Those attributes and weaknesses are not divided
    down gender lines. 
        The media has provided numerous artifacts and symbols of wealth
    and virility. You can buy symbolic love with everything from Porches
    to beer. We even wear symbolic phermones in the form of colognes
    and perfumes.
        We need to re-establish our internal power structure, return
    to the home, and stop seeing ourselves and women as objects to work
    into our silly symbolic world. We need real mentors with real power
    instead of the silly sports figures and Schwarzenmuscle cartoon
    characters we have used to give us hope that somewhere, somehow,
    someone will overcome the insurmountable odds we face. 
    
                                                           M...

    RE:  .25
    
    What "post-war era" are you alluding to???
    
    justme....jacqui

    re: 26  which war?
        Mostly WWII and our parents generation, but the modern industrial
    revolution for this country seemed to get up steam (industrial
    revolution term) about the turn of the century. The post-war effect
    after WWI was about the same. I didn't go into it because of a time
    crunch, but the effect of a world war on the male psyche is a crucial
    part of the search for lost security. It seems to me to amplify
    the feeling of a loss of foundation and the "need" to "protect"
    women from the fierce competition of the business environment. I
    realize these are dangerous generalities, but you get the point...
    
                                                              M...

    
    I seem to remember seeing mention of groups that treat people (both
    male and female) for "co-dependent sexual behaviour" or "obsession".
    
    This was mentioned in a wonderful book called "Women Who Love Too
    Much" - pretty famous and easy to find. Some men I know have enjoyed
    and learned from reading it too.
    
    It does seem to be recognised that some sexual behaviours, patterns,
    "addictions" or "obsessions" can be formed as part of a person's
    way of relating to the world - to parents, to a key partner, or
    as a coping mechanism.
    
    If anyone has the book, I would imagine that it would have an address
    or several in the back (I've given my copy away :-(
    
    'gail
    
    

    Re: .28
    
    I happened to notice the other day that Health Services at ZKO has
    a copy of "Women who Love Too Much" and "Letters from Women who
    Love Too Much" available for borrowing.  Perhaps other facilities
    have it too.
    
    				Steve

    RE: .25
    
    I agree wholeheartedly with the statements in .25 about what
    males have lost, and how screwed up the culture now is regarding
    what it is to be male (and female).  I don't know about what
    direct connections I would make to the original topic of this
    note, however.  That seems to me to be part of the problem:
    how to find the guidelines of one's life -- how to take the
    little steps on a path when the culture doesn't present any
    paths, just a big vacant lot.
    
    Bill

      re:30
              I have to admit my response in .25 was obtuse in requards
    to the solution to the problem of sexual "addiction". (obtuse is
    my middle name) I have not suffered from this problem myself and
    am not sure I could be of any real help. 
       I would think the classic techniques of de-sensitization, adversive
    therapy, and object replacement would be part of the approach. To
    me, I would first remind myself every time I see provocative
    advertisements what an insult it is to me as a man to suggest that
    I have so little control that I would actually buy something because
    I saw a picture of a woman in a bikini standing next to it. The
    constant trigger of the media is like an alcoholic standing in a beer
    vat trying not to drink. 
       As far as de-sensitization I would try things like auto-hypnosis,
    relaxation therapy, etc. It is a moment by moment thing, so some
    technique that can be used anywhere should be part of the discipline.
       I don't know what adversive therapy would work. That's a dangerous
    technique with this problem. To me you would have to be very careful
    to not associate any guilt with sex. Contrary to popular belief,
    it is possible to have sex without giult. I've found it's also possible
    to have guilt without sex, but that's another subject.  ;-)
       Object replacement is something that fits, to me, because I consider
    the problem to be an obsession more than an addiction. To me that
    means doing things alone that are athletic in nature. Doing things
    with other men is a problem because there is always some adolescent
    that knows no other bonding stimuli than to talk T and A. Doing
    things with women, I guess, would be something to avoid for a person
    obsessed with sex. While on the subject, let me state that I think
    it is very important to not blame women in any way for this problem.
    They must not be seen as "the temptress". It has been a traditional
    technique in religiously fundimentalist cultures to segregate women
    and cover their faces, etc. all of which suggests that they are
    the problem. They are not. They have been used as a business weapon
    against men (and women) because if you can register an association
    with a product in the limbic region of the brain you can make a
    sale. It works. On both men and women. All part of the misguided
    capitalist notion that the laws of supply and demand include creating
    the demand artificially.
       I would suggest reading as far as a way to re-direct and control
    the mind. I don't have a complete bibliography at hand now, but
    try these:  Men and Women by Alan Watts. The Male Machine by a French
    guy named something like Levevre. (sorry) Women Who Love Too Much
    (i forget the author/s) It's a good book on obsession/co-dependency.
       When you're driving down the street and you see a woman that is
    physically attractive ignore her. She's just someONE else walking
    down the street. If you can't ignore her then remind yourself that
    she is a heart and mind and soul that you can't see. She's some
    mother's daughter, mabey someone's mother. Some engineer or pianist
    or painter. She is just like you. With all the plans, dreams, hopes
    and fears. She cannot be limited to her physical appearance. She
    is much much more. She's YOUR daughter. She's YOUR mother.
    
                                                                M...
               

>    Doing
>    things with women, I guess, would be something to avoid for a person
>    obsessed with sex. While on the subject, let me state that I think
>    it is very important to not blame women in any way for this problem.

As a gay man who has had to deal with sexual compulsion in the past 
five years, doing things with women is a moot point for me, and it
never occured to me to blame them for my sexual obsession, since the
objects of my obession are male.  I suppose we can take the flip side
of your statements (hanging around with men would be something for me
to avoid, it's important not to blame men for my problem).  I find the 
first statement completely unworkable for a gay man, and I'm pretty 
clear that the second statement is true, since I am the source of my 
compulsion, not the objects (men).

>       When you're driving down the street and you see a woman that is
>    physically attractive ignore her. 

I disagree strongly.  If I had taken this tactic with my sexual 
compulsion with men, I would not be making as much progress as I am 
now.  (Perhaps it would work for others, but this isn't how it 
happened with me.)

This is one of the reasons why I think that terminology is important,
here. If people view sexual obsession as, essentially, an "addiction," 
like alcoholism, then I think that they would be inclined to follow 
the well-established AA-like methodology, which would include cutting 
yourself off from the object of addiction (ie, quiting drinking, 
ignoring men/women).  One of the reasons why I think it is important 
to call it "sexual compulsion," is because it opens up different 
avenues of treatment that can be more effective than going cold turkey 
on sex and sexual attractedness.  Not only do I think that the "cold 
turkey" method for sexual compulsion is unnecessary, I think that it 
is ineffective; it spends too much time and energy on "sex," and not 
enough time and energy getting at the underlying emotional problem.  
In my experience, sexual compulsion is more closely aligned with 
anorexia/bulemia than it is to alcoholism.  

The first step that I used in my treatment of sexual compulsion was to
accept the compulsion and to stop fighting it.  (This is a close
cousin to AA's "Admit that your life is out of your control/higher
power.")  For me, I needed to get at the source of the compulsion,
and, despite surface appearances, men were not the source of my
problem.  To get at the underlying dynamics, I had to get in close to
the compulsion, to pay attention when and where the compulsion was
triggered, to pay attention to the sex I had that didn't feel
compulsive, and to pay attention to how I was feeling at the time that
I was chasing men.  If I had spent time fighting my compulsive desire 
to chase men, it would have been very difficult for me to get close 
enough to the compulsion to understand what was really going on.  
Shutting myself off from the objects of my compulsion might have 
worked, but I'd put money down that it would have delayed my recovery 
by years.

One of the first things that I noticed when I was chasing men was that 
I was totally out of touch with my body and with time, and that there 
was a constant chatter going on in my head.  I was "up in my head," 
fantasizing and projecting my fantasies onto men around me.  Hours and 
hours would go by with me chasing men, sometimes whole evenings would 
disappear.

I used two techniques to help me to "be in the moment" when I was 
cruising men.  One thing that I would do was to consciously get the 
voice in my head to shut up, and to pay close attention to colors, 
feelings, and sensual data.  The next thing that I would do is to 
reach down and pinch my thigh.  The pinching feeling would drag me out 
of my thoughs and force me to feel my body.

When I was in touch with my body, I began to notice some very 
interesting things.  Feelings.  Suddenly, I was aware of a tight 
stomach, a cleached throat, darting eyes, clenched shoulders, fear, 
anxiety, excitement, loneliness, longing, and a lot of other things.  
One irony of this stage in my recovery is that, once I got in touch 
with some of my underlying anxiety, I began to see it in the other 
guys who were cruising around me.  The desperate longing is in the 
eyes; the hunger is intense, but it is soooo hard to see that the 
hunger is not about sex.

After working with my therapist on this for a while, we worked on the 
idea that I was a very lonely person who spent a lot of time in my
head (not paying attention to my body or my heart; for example, I was
the type of person who would get so involved in a project that I
wouldn't realize that I had to go to the bathroom until I was almost
in pain), who didn't open up my emotions to a lot of people, and who
spent a lot of time alone.  My body was "driving" me to connect with 
people in order to stem my loneliness.

At that point in my recovery, the key was to stay in touch with my 
body and to try to respond in ways that would be appropriate.  For 
instance, if I was feeling lonely, then I needed to make the effort to 
talk to the man, instead of just having sex with him.  I needed to 
make a commitment--when I was cruising--to hand someone my phone 
number and to go out on "one date without sex" before having sex.  I 
also tried to make an effort to call a friend when feeling down, 
instead of running to sex to try to cover up the depression (trying to 
connect emotionally when I was feeling driven to connect sexually).

Meanwhile, in non-sexual areas of my life, I concentrated on talking 
to strangers, being more genuine in expressing my feelings, leaning 
into discomfort when meeting new people, and generally opening myself 
up to people more.  

Some great things have happened.  At one time, I never felt horniness 
(I had sex when I was happy, nervous, frightened, lonely, when I 
succeeded, when I failed; it was a band-aid that I put over any 
intense emotion I felt, even boredom); now, I feel horniness (which is 
distinct from "desperate longing").  I've learned that sometimes I 
look at handsome men, and it is exciting, nurturing, and fun; other 
times, it is saddening and desperate (and this is an indication that 
I'm in need of emotional connection and I'm trying to cover it over 
with sexual connection).  Being hot for men is not my enemy.  Using my 
attraction for men to cover for some other inadequacy is my enemy.  

Sexual compulsion is contextual.  The answer for me has not been to go 
cold turkey from sex, but to discover, understand, decipher, and 
reroute sex-as-a-substitute-for-emotional-intimacy.  

And, I'm doing pretty well.  It's interesting to watch the patterns.  
I was doing really well in the months of April and May.  My sexual 
attractions were fun, exciting, energizing, and healthy (and I was 
getting turned on all the time, but there were no real "control" 
problems; it "fit" within the context of my life).  At the same time, 
I was dating regularly, taking parts in lots of workshops, meeting new 
people, and opening myself up emotionally.

I noticed that in June, when I went through a dry spell with lack of 
dating, when work got tough (burnout), when Notes files discussions 
got intense and combative, and when I began to shut myself off from 
people, the sexual compulsion came back again.  (That's how it works 
for me these days, good for a while and back in the compulsion again.  
However, each time I swing back into the compulsion, it is weaker, 
shorter in time, and less debilitating than it was the previous time.)
The phone lines are my biggest weakness.  It is a way to be a huge 
slut without any danger (except to the budget); also, what better 
method to "be in my head" and to fantasize all over people!

So, to conclude, I _know_ that a good number of people have had some 
good success with treating sexual compulsion by using therapeutic 
drugs or by using 12-step techniques.  However, I highly recommend 
that, if you are suffering from sexual compulsion (is sex getting in 
the way of living your life the way you want and doing the things that 
would make you happy?), then don't use those techniques first.  I have 
serious reservations about techniques that alter your natural 
emotional experience of the compulsion or that shut you off from the 
compulsion to the degree that it would be hard to gather information 
from the experience.

First, try accepting the compulsion, tapping into the messages that
your own body is sending to you about what you _really_ need (and it
isn't sex, though sex is a facsimile of it).  There is a good
intention behind the compulsion.  Honor it, understand it, decipher
it, and reroute it to actions that can provide you with what you
really need.  (And I'd be willing to venture a guess that what you
really need has something to do with emotional intimacy, friendship,
trust, and loneliness.) 

If that doesn't work, you can always treat it like an addiction.

Anyway, that's been my personal experience with this topic.



						--Gerry

    re:32 
          Your note should be of great help to the basenoter and others
    suffering from this problem. 
                                                        M...

    Thanks for all your replies. 
    K.H.
    

I want to take a slightly different perspective on this. There is so much sex
inference and suggestion in our media that I find it to be quite pervasive and
at times invasive (new word ?). At times I feel that I have to fight it off,
and at other times I feel comfortable indulging in it. However I feel very
strongly that if you are feeling like the sexual feelings are deteriorating
your daily existence, that you try to take a realistic view at how much this
stuff has been forcing its way into your life. While you are responsible in the
end for your reaction to the stimulus, you are also being given quite a deluge
of stimulation.

I can think of two ways to make any stimulus more potent. The first is to make
it seem like everyone has it all the time and therefore that you should too. And
the second is to make it a forbidden fruit. If you aren't getting any, then it
can become a preoccupation (sometimes I have had the feeling that if I'm not
eating of the fruit, then there might be something wrong with me). This secondary
reason for carrying out the sex drive has potency of its own. I would like to add
however that I think you can't satisfy this need. The more you get, the more you
can think you should get. So beware of this path.

In another direction, I was once on the beach in Truro and walked into a nudist
colony. It was very strange. However, I found that I didn't become a raving sex
maniac. In fact, when our clothes were off, we were shy in a slightly different
way, but felt compelled to talk to get beyond that. There I was, with lots of
stimulation, but no compulsion to carry on. Figure it out.

Sometimes I have felt really great after a sweaty tennis match or aerobics. And
definitely pretty physically drained. Yeah, I enjoyed looking at the spandex
shapes, but by the time I got my head into the 1-2-1-2, I found a new release.
I hate to feel powerless. I hate to be a victim of someone else's plot. I must
control my destiny. I must value myself.

Good Luck

    I've been without a television for the last five years and
    do not buy/read any magazines or newspapers.
    
    Occasionally, I am at someone's house and the TV is on,
    so I watch for a few minutes before we go somewhere else,
    and I am bowled over by the slick emptiness and the plastic
    people designed to look as alluring as possible.
    
    I really recommend doing without the media.  Five minutes
    of All Things Considered at 5, or 5:30 or 6:00 PM is all
    you really need to figure out what's going on in the world.
    (And VAX-NOTEing , of course. ;-)  )
    
    Bill
    

    DITTO .37
                 Nina Totenburg is the only woman for me.
    
    
                                                            M...

    
    What about Terry Gross, Linda Wertheimer, and the other 
    beautiful and talented "NPR babes"?
    

     NPR babes weigh more than you and I combined...

    
    	My favorite is Coki Roberts... if that is how you spell it. I love
    	the way she says it at the end of her report. Woof, now that's an
    	attractive name! :-)
    
    	-Erik (3 cheers for the entire NPR staff!) 

    
    cmon, doc, all this talk of Terry being Gross is calulated to
    keep the other guys away isn't it....

    
    Re -1
    
    .....and is it of any use to the basenoter?