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Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Title:Topics Pertaining to Men
Notice:Archived V1 - Current file is QUARK::MENNOTES
Moderator:QUARK::LIONEL
Created:Fri Nov 07 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jan 26 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:867
Total number of notes:32923

454.0. "On War" by BRADOR::HATASHITA () Wed May 16 1990 15:32

I was asked to place this in MENNOTES as well.
    

         <<< QUARK::NOTES_DISK:[NOTES$LIBRARY]HUMAN_RELATIONS.NOTE;1 >>>
               -< What's all this fuss about 'sax and violins'? >-
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Note 1006.0             Where's all the heat coming from?             No replies
BRADOR::HATASHITA                                    31 lines  16-MAY-1990 02:21
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What is going on out there?

I read MENNOTES and feel the hostility towards women.

I read WOMENNOTES and feel the hostility towards men.

Were I to compose a composite character from the impressions that are presented
of the opposite sex in these notes here's what I'd get:

Man:
Violent, insensitive and abusive to women.  Takes joy in oppressing females
and children.  Is inarticulate, impolite, and out of touch with his
feelings which aren't generated by his hormones. Has the upper hand in
society. 

Woman:
Vindictive, manipulating and abusive to men.  Takes joy in emotional
torture of males.  Is vain, nasty, demanding and after men for money.  Has
the upper hand in society. 

Nobody can deny that there are individuals who fit the character, but they
must be rare outside of the soap operas because I don't meet too many of
them. 

History shows that during wars the enemy gets depicted in simplistic
and negative images in order to dehumanize them.  It makes it easier
to hate them.  Which makes it easier to kill them.

So, what's this war about?  And why are the walking wounded still fighting?

Kris

    
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454.1SKYLRK::OLSONPartner in the Almaden Train Wreck!Wed May 16 1990 15:5020
    Its like this, Kris.  We all have our viewpoints, our turf, our
    emotional perspectives on everything.  And we're all tired of being
    pushed.  We all resist change when it appears (to our emotional sides)
    that that change may threaten us.  Sure, we come up with 'logical'
    arguments for our chosen way of looking at things; but I doubt very
    much that there are any of us who argue our points without feeling
    'right', too; that is, though we may cover ourselves up with reason, we
    'feel' these issues from the gut, too.  Sometimes we have excellent
    reason on our side...but I think its usually after the emotional side
    has spoken that our rational side justifies things and provides us with
    all of those 'logical' arguments.
    
    We seldom have the guts to admit our own chosen perspective is
    incomplete.  Your note points out the warlike nature of some of
    the interchanges, and shows us all how futile and one-sided each
    of those stereotypical biases really is.  I hope we all have the guts
    to embrace, or at least to consider, the perspectives our peers choose
    to share with us.
    
    DougO
454.2QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centWed May 16 1990 16:0512
I don't view it as war, so much as it reflects a natural tendency for people
who are hurt or upset to lash out at what they perceive as the "enemy".  I
try not to take everything everyone says literally, but to look behind the
words and see the emotions and feelings.  It's difficult, and all too easy
to get blinded by the fury.

In some ways, you don't get a balanced view of our society from the
writings in the notesfiles.  Those who are angry tend to write the most.  Those
who are in general satisfied tend to stay quiet.  It's sort of a preselected
audience - no wonder we shake our heads and wonder why everyone is angry!

			Steve
454.3Since you asked...CSG002::MEDEIROSValue MY DifferenceWed May 16 1990 18:4853
  I remember once reading an article by George Will (smart guy, that George)
where he stated, and I remember the quote exactly:  "There is no affiliation
more easily affected, or in the end more meaningless, than membership in a
generation."   His quote started me thinking about other affiliations that
are also instant, easy, and automatic:  race, gender, nationality.  All 
determined at birth, all determining what our "natural" allegiances will be.
You can add religion to the list also, for 99% of the people in the world.
Yet how many of us actally go beyond these automatic "memberships" and use what
we do and have accomplished since birth as the primary identifiers of who we
are and how we see ourselves, rather than the default identifiers of race,
gender, nationality, and religion?

  It's so easy to blame others for problems that we create ourselves.  Thus
the name-calling, finger-pointing, and generall boo-hoo-hooing about how
our own problems are someone else's fault.  How very simple to find a banner
to march under, a rallying cry to answer, a scapegoat to identify as the
source of all our problems that, if destroyed, would make everything right
again.  March under the banner of feminism, destroy the male-dominated
particarchal oppression, and all problems in the world will be magically 
solved.   Just be born the correct gender, and you too can join, with no
obligation.  March under the banner of civil rights and racial equality,
overthrow the racist power monopoly which is the source of all your troubles,
and the world will be just and fair and you will receive what is yours
by right and reason; again, membership is automatic if you're born the correct
race.   Normally, it accomplishes nothing other than giving some people a
comforting sense of belonging and kinship, to identify with the cozy, close
and intimate group of 3 billion or so other women, or 250 million or so other
Americans, or however many billions of Christians or however many millions
or billions of homosexuals there are, and so on. Normally, it's just people
with an ax to grind and a group they want to belong to and be accepted by,
and a story to tell that maybe Ann Landers would be interested in, but not 
me.  Normally, I would ignore it all and just go about my business.

  So why do I participate?  In a word, balance and perspective, since I'm
a member (automatically) of the intersection of groups that gets blamed 
the most: White, Male, American, Christian, hetero.  When fingers get pointed, 
it's usually at us, and it's up to someone to tell people that when you
point a finger, if you take a good look at your hand, you'll see three
other fingers pointing right back at yourself.  When feminists argue that
women are often victims of violence (which they are) someone has to balance
the argument and point out that men are also victims of violence at the
hands of women (which I have been); when feminists whine that men control
and victimize and subjugate and exploit women, someone has to balance the
argument and point out that men can get pretty badly brutalized too, 
and can have their families broken apart and their children taken away from
them and can get stuck with the bill for providing for a family that
they aren't part of any more.  That's why I note sometimes here in
MENNOTES.  In the absence of any sort of organized "masculist" movement
to speak for men collectively as a gender, someone has to point out that
when you make broad generalizations, you have to expect to hear from those
who are the exception to your convenient stereotypes.

454.410-4CSC32::HADDOCKAll Irk and No PayWed May 16 1990 21:185
    re .3
    
    I'll second that.
    
    fred();
454.5A nodding head...TLE::FISHERWork that dream and love your lifeThu May 17 1990 15:217
>I don't view it as war, so much as it reflects a natural tendency for people
>who are hurt or upset to lash out at what they perceive as the "enemy".  

Yes.  Well put.

	--Ger
454.6CSC32::J_OPPELTYou go first -- after me.Thu May 17 1990 19:254
    	An interesting quote that I heard:

    	We don't seek allies when we love.  We only seek allies when
    	we hate...
454.7FROM THE ROGUSWRSL::BOUCHER_ROWed May 23 1990 03:556
    

    Something here that most of you have forgotten.Anywhere you look
    in history,in the bible or whereever.Men and women have fought or
    had differences of opinions.For this is what makes us endividials.
      Yes even in mariges,have you ever heard of a perfect marrige
454.8RE: .7 did you mean *marriage*?MILKWY::BUSHEEFrom the depths of shattered dreams!Wed May 23 1990 12:401