Conference quark::mennotes-v1

 >Now for gosh sakes, please don't lets argue about whether (at least     
  >  here) it is true and if it is true why it is true.       
    
    I'm not clear as to the meaning of .0, Herb. What are you looking for
    in this discussion, if not whether or not the question in your title
    is true?
    
    -roger
    
    
                  

    
    I'm wondering why this is specifically a "white american" discussion,
    as opposed to "black american"?  Specifically, is the just for
    Caucasian-European-heritage types?
    
    .... wondering
    

    Since the base note was written, I've being thinking about who I
    touch, when, and why.  Apart from the social handshakes, sporting
    slaps on the back for a job well done, and touching within the family,
    all touching that I do does seem to have a sexual flavour.
    
    Now depending on the circumstances, the person I am touching, or being
    touched by, may not interpret the action that way.  But to me the
    connection is there.  
    
    Am I strange?  I hope not!
    
    BTW FWIW I'm a WASP Brit.
                          
    Bob

    Handshakes for me are not sexual, nor are hugs from relatives. Contact
    sports would not be sexual for me either, except maybe wrestling where
    the contact tends to involve large surface areas and is prolonged.
    Although I don't consider the above examples (except for maybe
    wrestling) sexual, touching is certainly on the edge of being sexual
    for me. The context and length of time of the touch matters alot as to
    whether I would interpret it as sexual.  A sexual touch to me does not
    imply that it is deliberately sexual by either party.  Sexual in the
    context of this discussion (for me) means interpreted as sexual.  BTW I
    am a WASP.  I have no problem with anyone who wants to address this
    string regardless of their culture.   Jeff

    I came from a family where nobody touched anybody, unless it was a
    playful punch between the siblings. The only physical contact with
    my parents was an awkward hug on meeting me after a long seperation,
    and this always seemed more uncomfortable than affectionate.
    
    Being touch-deprived, I found that I craved it from my relationships
    with women, and expected rather too much of it. Even then, I don't
    think that I wanted it as primarily a sexual thing, but as a gesture
    of affection, although I certainly liked the sexual aspect as well.
    Through various relationships, and friendships through the years,
    I discovered that I could gradually become physically affectionate
    with both men and women on a friendly basis, from pats on the back,
    a touch on a shoulder, to full hugs, depending on the level of trust
    involved, and the physical comfort level of the other person. The
    terrific thing about it is that touch is a whole language of
    expression in itself, and can express any level of friendship. Only
    recently have I been able to actually hug certain male hetero friends,
    which is brand new for me. It feels terrific, and there is no sexual
    aspect to it at all.
    
    "I have a theory, it is mine, and this is what it is", to quote Monty
    Python. I believe that persons whose ethnic heritage is from very
    emotionally reserved cultures, are also less likely to touch. My
    heritage is WASP, which is also the predominant cultural heritage
    of early America, and sort of sets the tone for the whole country
    historically. Other European cultures touch much more, it seems
    to me, although, I sure there is quite a bit of variance within
    any group. Many of my friends of Jewish or Italian ethnic background
    have been very physically affectionate, so I also wonder if it is a
    northern vs. southern European thing. 
    
    I was quite shocked to see very macho Italian men walking down
    the street in Rome, carrying purses, and walking hand in hand. I 
    think if I were to suggest to them that their behavior was unmasculine,
    I would be in serious trouble.
    
    In our culture, it has been traditionally taboo for men to touch each
    other, (although the slap on the butt that football players give each
    other is a  rather interesting phenomena.) I've met women who disliked
    being touched, by anybody, quite a bit, too, so I don't think that this
    is just a gender-linked issue.
    
    It's all what you like, I guess.
    
    -roger
    

    re .7, I agree with most of what you say.  I don't think a person's
    feelings about touching are necessarily gender linked either.  In
    fact, I find it surprising that men often think that women are more
    comfortable touching each other, in a non-sexual way, than men are.
     I was also raised in a family that never hugged or kissed or touched
    each other, and coincidentally, I am also of WASP background.  My
    parents hugged and kissed each other often (which I enterpreted
    as romantic or sexual touching) but they *never* hugged or kissed
    us kids, and they never touched their friends or relatives.  (I
    think the first time I was ever hugged by another person was the
    first time a boy kissed me, no wonder I think of touching as sexual!)
    
    Except for my daughter and my cats [:-)], I still feel uncomfortable
    with non-sexual touching.  Even though I understand hugging is good
    for people it still seems weird and unnatural to me.  I force myself
    to go along with it so people won't think I'm cold.
    
    Lorna
    

	I don't find all hugging/touching sexual.

	I'm a hugger and a toucher. I was brought up being hugged.
	It's a natural thing for me to reach out and hug those
	that I care for (both women and men). As a matter of
	fact I feel uncomfortable around people who react
	with a quick start or stiffen up when hugged and touched.

	An example is that just this morning I recieved a 
	phone call from a friend in the building across the
	street. It seems that yesterday I was over there and
	saw this friend, but being in a rush, I waved quickly
	and proceeded to go along with my business. He phoned
	this morning, a bit hurt that I didn't stop by his
	office to give him a hug !  

	I suppose as Lorna mentioned in her reply...it has a
	lot to do with the environment that you were raised
	in. I was brought up with hugs and *I love you's* all
	around me. To this day, every telephone conversation
	with anyone in my family is ended with *I love you*
	and each visit with a hug.

	kits    

    I was raised in a WASP family where there was limited A-Frame type
    hugging and touching. When I hit puberty my father stopped hugging me
    completely except for a rare, forced, A-Frame "hug" after a long absence. 
    When I finally got married and hugging "became" ok in all respects I
    found that I was touching staved. For the early part of our marriage I
    couldn't get enough touching. Not all of it was sexual when
    examined in retrospect.  Somehow, I am more touching satisfied now than
    I ever used to be. I guess I got caught up some.  It was as if I was
    running a touching deficit for a while there.

    I too noticed Italian men and boys holding hands in a non sexual way
    when I was in Italy.  My feelings were mixed... (this was in about
    1966) on one hand I envied their ability to express same sex affection
    so easily and openly, yet on the other hand I was shocked at what
    appeared to be homosexual behavior even though I knew it wasn't.
    (MY problem with the interpretation, I am not suggesting that
    homosexual hand holding in public is immoral).  

    I think that the U.S. as a whole is quite up tight about touching and
    our bodies.   

    Jeff

    My ballet teacher is German; he likes to talk to people and to touch
    and to hug them.  Unfortunately, a lot of people misunderstood him, and
    they get really upset.  I tried to explain to him that in America, some
    people are uptight about hugging and touching, but he refused to learn.
    Well, one day he came to me and told me that the manager of the gym
    where we practice ballet, ordered him to stop bothering people,
    specifically, stop touching men and women there.  If he does not
    comply, they will kick him out and report him to authority. 
    
    The second case, I have a french teacher, who is married to an
    american.  She has a cute little daughter.  One day her mother in Paris
    visited my teacher, and the grand-mother kissed her grand-daughter and
    her little play mate on their cheesks.  The little boy, about five
    years old, got so frighten that he ran home and reported to his mother
    about the incidence.  The whole thing was a mess.  Fortunately,
    everything worked out very well.
    
    In both cases I feel sorry for my european friends.  I hope that we are
    not so uptight about hold hand for touching, hugging.  What do you
    think?

Is there a difference between sexual and sensual?  To me, all touching 
is sensual.  Not all touching is sexual.

In my realm of experience, full-body hugs are and are not sexual
depending on the context.  There have been times when another man has 
been sitting up against my chest, in between my legs, and it has not 
been sexual (sexual arousal was not involved).

Full-body hugs are always sensual (feels good physically, but not
necessarily sexually arousing). 

To me, people who think differently than me are not "wierd," just 
a product of different experiences.  If every full-body hug that I 
ever had was involved in sexual activity, I would say that full-body 
hugs are inherently sexual.  That would make sense to me.

						--Gerry

    
    We ARE sensual beings, but I can ONLY assume that we aren't all
    having sex. Wouldn't the terminal get in the way?
    
    I think anybody who is inherently put-off by being touched is probably
    insecure with their own identity or afraid of their own thoughts.
    "Gee, I just had a strange little thought, maybe I'm not normal?"
    Ofcourse you're normal, don't be stupid.
    
    Hug me whenever you'd like, the odds are pretty damned good we won't
    be having sex.
    
    mike();
    

    As a woman I view touching in multiple ways.  Some are sexual, some are
    sensual, some are sympathetic, and some are supportive.  (There are
    others as well - but I hope you get my drift.)
    
    A question for the men of the file:  If we were coworkers and are in a
    meeting together where you have just made a major, mind-boggling
    observation to the group, and I reach over, touch your arm with my
    finger tips, and comment, "Brilliant piece of work, (your name)!" -- is
    that sexual?
    
    If we were coworkers and you have just received a telephone call
    indicating your child has been taken to the emergency room for some
    painful, but not life-threatening, injury, and I reach out and grasp
    your shoulder with my hand, and comment, "Go to the hospital, (your
    name).  I'll cover for you here.  I hope everything works out all right
    for (your child's name)." -- is that sexual? 
    
    What I'm trying to understand is if this topic is "touching" or
    "TOUCHING"?
    
    Karen
                             

    Re .14, Karen, I'm not a man, but I wanted to make a comment on
    your reply because I did say that I am uncomfortable with a lot
    of non-sexual hugging and touching.  If you touched my arm at a
    meeting or hugged me as I hurried off to the hospital, I would realize
    full well that you have no interested in having sex with me, (thank
    goodness!) :-), however, I might still be uncomfortable with having
    you hug me.  And, .13, I don't think it's because I'm ashamed of
    having any little thoughts either.  I never have sexual thoughts
    that embarrass me.  I'm quite comfortable with my thoughts and feelings
    in regard to sex, but that still doens't mean I'd want you to hug
    me.  Maybe some of us don't really care to hug every tom, dick and
    harry that we happen to know in this world.  Maybe some of us would
    prefer to save the touching, both affectionate and sexual, for a
    few special people in our lives.
    
    Lorna
    

>    A question for the men of the file:  If we were coworkers and are in a
>    meeting together where you have just made a major, mind-boggling
>    observation to the group, and I reach over, touch your arm with my
>    finger tips, and comment, "Brilliant piece of work, (your name)!" -- is
>    that sexual?

 It depends. On a rational level, we might understand that you are simply
being nice, but often our bodies do not make the distinction. The circumstances
surrounding the act of touching are incredibly important. For instance, if we
are very happy, proud, etc of our accomplishment, we might be more likely to
respond in a sexual way to such a touching. Our previous relationship might
also be a factor. There are so many variables, it is difficult to give a cut
and dried answer.

>    If we were coworkers and you have just received a telephone call
>    indicating your child has been taken to the emergency room for some
>    painful, but not life-threatening, injury, and I reach out and grasp
>    your shoulder with my hand, and comment, "Go to the hospital, (your
>    name).  I'll cover for you here.  I hope everything works out all right
>    for (your child's name)." -- is that sexual? 
 
 Given the fact that most people would be emotionally disturbed by such a
phone call, I doubt that many would react in a sexual way at all to such a 
touch. It would be recognized as being merely supportive.

 The Doctah

    .14 & .15
    
    Forgive my words, they usually get in the way of my thoughts,
    (so what's new)
    
    .14 I agree completly, touching can mean so MANY different things!
    If we are sitting across from each other, and  I reach out and touch 
    your knee it might mean, "I think you're beautiful, let's hit the hay"  
    or it might mean "be quiet, don't interupt me, I was talking.."
    
    .15 I thought about what I said and again, I agree completely, I would
    be very leary of anybody I didn't know being overly friendly (touching
    included), anyone being that friendly without knowing me, must want
    something, like - my wallet.
    
    mike(without,a,clue);                

    .11 illustrates my point about Americans having an up-tight touching
    culture, (.11 was the case of the ballet teacher.)  Much of how we
    perceive touching is based on our cultural learning rather than on
    inherent "instinctual" reactions.  An example is the little boy being
    distressed at having been kissed on the cheek.  I wish we could put
    more of our emotional distress (oh my God, someone TOUCHED! me) into
    avoiding physical violence... talk about "touching"!
    Its too bad... the World needs more love and understanding... not a 
    bunch of uptight people making a federal case of having been touched on
    the arm.  Don't get me wrong.... I am as sensitive to being touched as
    the next American.  We are in a culture which teaches/reinforces one
    another to be uptight about touching.
    
    How about in Japan where a subway ride involves full body contact at
    both the front and rear.  Its non sexual touching... but I don't think
    I would be comfortable being squeezed up against someone like that
    unless the person was an intimate.   Jeff
    don't teach others to make such a big deal of it.  How about Japan
    where a commute on public transport involves being squeezed in with
    other people in a subway ride... and I MEAN squeezed in.... full body
    contact on both sides type stuff.... yup it would upset to be squeezed
    in like that.    Jeff

    This is an interesting topic.  I am third generation Italian-American. 
    My grandparents were immigrants.  My parents, while raising us kids
    during 50s and 60s, tried to be quintessential American parents
    in every way.  And although they were very emotional, sensitive,
    affectionate people (deep down) they withheld physical affection from
    us because they seemed to believe it was the "American way."  With Ward
    Cleaver and Donna Reed setting the standard, it is no wonder why most
    parents of their generation didn't hug/kiss their kids, is it?
    
    So, as you guessed, there wasn't much display of physical affection,
    hugging, and kissing, in my family.  Like so many other men in my
    generation, I grew up not knowing how to display affection and how to 
    love in a non-sexual way.  (That is, my parents did not show/teach us,
    by example.)
    
    I am 35 years old, but until roughly three or four years ago, I pretty
    much felt very uptight hugging, kissing, or displaying physical affection
    toward most anyone, except while in sexual encounters.  Not that I didn't 
    need to give/receive nonsexual physical affection -- I did -- I simply 
    did not know how.  Until recent years, therefore, a simple hug was a 
    "big deal" with me;  hugs and other forms of simple physical affection 
    were so rare that they actually became novel ORDEALS in my life.  
    
    Anyway, via efforts to reverse my "conditioning" in this area, I
    pretty much feel comfortable in giving/receiving non-sexual physical
    affection with those in my life I care about -- both men and women. 
    For example, it used to be that I would RARELY exchange hugs with my
    friends.  Fortunately, hugging is now pretty much standard fare with
    most of my friends, and it feels great.
    
    In regards to the original question -- is touching sexual for men -- I
    can only speak for myself... but... yes:  Before I worked on reversing
    my early conditioning and uptight feelings around touching, I usually
    associated touching with sexuality, sexual feelings, sexual come-ons,
    and so forth.  But, for me, this was not the place where I truly wished
    to be.  I was not truly the kind of person I wanted to be.  It was 
    important for me to be able to express physical, nonsexual affection 
    toward family and friends.  This is just my humble opinion, but I believe 
    that most men, of my generation at least, have experienced similar 
    difficulties and have been in similar predicaments.  (I do understand, 
    however, and respect the fact that some men will say it is OK not to want
    to give/receive physical affection outside of sexual situations -- that
    some men will say that it isn't a "problem" or "deficiency" or
    "weakness" or whatever.  And that's OK.  To each his own ...)
    
    Touching in our culture, from what I can see, has been rather taboo.  I
    know of children, whose parents never carress them.  I know of some fathers
    who do not hug/kiss their sons after their sons reach the age of about
    5, simply because "guys don't hug/kiss guys."  One begins to wonder about 
    the tragic ramifications of all this -- the vicious cycle that is created,
    from one generation to another.  (Some adult men get uptight when
    someone shakes their hand more than 6 or 7 or shakes.)
    
    I cannot speak for a woman's point of view, but my general impression
    is that females are clearly more comfortable with giving and receiving 
    nonsexual physical affection; for the most part, daughters seem to
    get much more physical affection from their fathers (and even mothers)
    than sons.  And in some ways, IMHO, women seem to be more comfortable
    in displaying nonsexual physical affection with other females, than
    with men; that is, I think a woman might often hesitate to display 
    nonsexual physical affection toward a man, simply because she may know 
    that he would invariably interpret it as a sexual overture -- a prelude
    to as sexual encounter that he might or might not want.  
        
    Anyway, those are my 2 cents worth.  I can only say that, for me,
    giving/receiving nonsexual physical affection with friends and family
    is a much more satisfying and happier way to exist.  In fact, until
    recent years, I really didn't know what I was missing.
    
    Cheers,
    Paul  

    I'm faced with two sides of this issue.
    
    As an adult male I'm become very *stressed* if *touched* by another
    male.  It's very uncomfortable for me to have some one grab/hold my arm
    while speaking to me.  My father-in-law would mess my hair while
    commenting on the lack there of.  I'm truely not sensitive about the
    baldness but the *touching* would make my hair stand on edge.
    
    On the other hand, my two children have be *tucked* into bed each night
    with Huggs and Kisses since birth by both my wife and myself.  To this
    day they will tell us it *Huggs and Kisses* time.  They also get Huggs
    and Kisses as the leave for school in the morning.  It's not uncommon
    for either of them to say "I need a hug", which either my wife or I
    will oblidge(sp).  My son is 16, my daughter 14.
    
    I believe there's nothing *sexual* in either case 1 (my father-in-law)
    or case 1 (my kids) the first is distinctly uncomforatable and I'm glad
    for the second.

    Well said.
    

    excuse the typo in .-1 I meant  case 2 (my kids).

It was nice to see Oliver Stone (Director of "Born on the Fourth of 
July") kiss Ron Kovic (coauthor of same movie) when he went up to 
receive his Academy Award for Best Director.  It just seemed very 
natural, warm, and nonsexual.

Thoughts?


						--Gerry

	For me it's a case of intent vs. perception.  If a man touches me
    and I don't like it because I perceive it to be invasive or
    threatening, then I have a negative reaction, regardless of the
    the man's true intentions.  If a man touches me and I like it because
    it feels good, because I want or need to be touched, then my perception
    is that the touch is affectionate and/or supportive and my reaction is
    positive, again regardless of the man's true intentions.  (I feel the
    same way about women touching me, BTW.)

	So, unless someone is being overtly sexual, touching is only sexual
    if I perceive it that way.  I find that, because I take the responsibility
    for my perceptions, I'm very comfortable with being touched under most
    circumstances, by men or women.  This attitude, by the way, is not
    something I was born with -- it took me a long time to learn it.  It
    sure is a lot easier to be this way than to worry about what other
    people have on their minds.

	                                             /////
						     |||||
						     \___/  

    I've agreed with much of what has been said, esp. comments from
    Lorna.  I grew up in a household with very little hugging once I
    hit puberty...although my mom tried she was always overwhelmed with
    6 kids...my dad rarely hugged me.  (now ofcourse they do much better
    but we don't see each other that much).
    
    I married the first man who hugged me and via touching made me feel
    loved.  It was a combination of sexual and non-sexual touching.
    The longer we were married the less touching there was.  The last
    few years were the worst...the only time I got hugged or kissed
    was as a prelude to sex.  It's no wonder that when I was separated
    that I had difficulty disassociating ANY touch with a sexual response.
    
    Gradually I learned from some men that touching was ok and could
    be satifying without leading to sex.  Since then, I've tried to
    touch as often as I could (trying not to give off sexual overtones
    when it might matter).  Hugs are really important!  In my last
    relationship I craved being hugged and enjoyed just holding hands.
    It was very fulfilling in that way.
    
    The man I am dating now calls himself "tactile".  He loves to touch
    and not only for sexual gratification, but as a method of communicating
    concern and affection.  The lack of touching in early years is a
    hole that is slow to fill up.  During my relocation to Minnesota
    I could actually see the bottom of the hole in my loneliness.  I
    am hopefull that I can fill the hole, and maybe let it overflow
    to share with others.
    
    	Sherry

    I wish I would be touched more, and would dare to touch others more, of
    either sex, in a non-sexual way.
    
    Heinrich
    

    in 1958, while attending college at U.S.C. and hitch-hiking there from
    my home, I was "touched" by the man driving the car I was riding in. 
    For years after that I was loath to nearly any physical contact from
    men, except for hand-shaking.  
    
    I have since learned that most casual touching, such as a pat on the
    back, shoulder, and even some hugging, is not intended as a sexual
    overture, and I find now enjoy it for what it is...an expression of
    friendship or camaraderie.
    
    But, there is a part of me, in the back of my mind, that remains a
    little suspicious, I'm afraid, of such expressions.  It really pisses
    me off that one single incident can blemish a persons mind for so long!
    
    Tony
    (who is a touchy-physical man normally, but occasionally backs away)

I'm entering this note for a MENNOTES noter who wishes to remain 
anonymous. 

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re 444.9 and touching

    < Now as to the campers playing around with each other, that's a
    < different subject...
    
    My experience is that this kind of 'homosexual' experimentation is
    very,very common for early adolescent boys (say 11-14 or so)

    My experience is ALSO that this is the same age when homophobia is at
    its most virulent. I can't recall that there was anything worse for a
    boy to call another at this age than FAG, or HOMO. And this at the same
    age when we were engaged in the activities that WE ABOMINATED.

    I suspect that this personality characteristic of lots of boys is
    somehow connected to our concerns about touching.

    			sign me a happily married het

I'm entering this note for a MENNOTES noter who wishes to remain 
anonymous. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with the views expressed in 429.9  I suspect that boys are so
homophobic because of the opposite emotional forces pulling at them. I submit
that all people are somewhat bisexual, "no one is purely heterosexual or
homosexual".  Most of us have repressed our bisexual feelings to the point
where we are not even aware of them. Boys are no exception to these feelings. 
A whole bunch of things are happening to them in the 11-14 age range: Sexual
feelings are awakening, appropriate people, (women for primarily heterosexual
boys) to express their sexual feelings with are forbidden.  Most boys want to
be viewed in the ways society defines as manly, AND physical touching
(especially sexual) with other boys is prohibited by society in general.  As a
result, they enter puberty with tremendous forces pulling them in different
directions.  Some participate in sexual experimentation with other boys...
others stay away from it... but all don't want to be publicly associated with
it.  Those that participate in the experimentation may wind up hating
themselves for acting on it.  Why would any mainly heterosexual boy take part
in sexual experimentation with another boy?  I suspect the main reasons
involve availability of a peer, curiosity, and the slight homosexual desire in
all of us.  Most grow through this phase of development to become
heterosexuals or homosexuals or bisexuals.  Some I suspect get hung up at this
stage to become pedophiles and don't grow to be attracted to adults.  I
suspect that the problem is not the sexuality at that age itself as much as it
is relating to peers effectively at that crucial age. Some psychologists
theorize that the "homosexual phase" whether acted out sexually or not is a
normal part of sexual development in boys.  I can't speak for girls on this
subject. 

The bottom line is that many emotions are left over in us which were not fully
resolved when we were boys.  No wonder so many men are hung up over touching
other men.  I know I am. 

    ANSWER TO 11:
     You felt sorry for the Europeans regarding that incidence but... I
    tend to believe THEY felt sorry for the americans who do not know how
    to react to a hug... something as simple as that!
    I am truly sorry for all those people who are so deprived of warm and
    human contact till the point that, they don't even know how to react!
    
    I it so nice to share...