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Conference quark::mennotes-v1

Title:Topics Pertaining to Men
Notice:Archived V1 - Current file is QUARK::MENNOTES
Moderator:QUARK::LIONEL
Created:Fri Nov 07 1986
Last Modified:Tue Jan 26 1993
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:867
Total number of notes:32923

422.0. "ANNULMENT???" by MSCSSE::LENNARD () Tue Mar 06 1990 15:41

    Need a little help, troops.  My son is an Air Force officer stationed
    in Germany.  In October (while stationed in Tucson) he married a mall
    rat in Vegas.  Flew her to Germany in December.  She left him in
    January.  Seems she missed her friends.
    
    My question is:  Wouldn't an annulment seem appropriate here?  Is an
    annulment a real legal alternative to a divorce?  Anyone know of a
    legal firm in Nashua that could help my son get started?  It would
    have to be handled remotely.....i.e., my son in Germany, the girl in
    Arizona, etc.  Jaysus, what a mess.
    
    Would appreciate any help.  Being married for 35 years the the same
    woman has me ill-equipped to help the boy out.
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
422.1QUARK::LIONELFree advice is worth every centTue Mar 06 1990 16:334
Legal counsel is what your son needs.  I would recommend David Lieberman,
886-4222.

				Steve
422.2What about the Base Legal Office?WHRFRT::WHITEToo late to die young...Tue Mar 06 1990 18:287
I would be surprised if your son's base didn't have a Legal Services 
office that could help him out - at least with pointers to appropriate 
resources...

Bob_who_once_wore_funny_green_clothes_while_working_for_Uncle_Sam

422.3CSC32::GORTMAKERwhatsa Gort?Wed Mar 07 1990 11:333
Sorry but what is a "mall rat"?

-j
422.5Yes, probably an annulment is appropriateAZTECH::JARRETTWed Mar 07 1990 14:439
RE: .0

I had a friend who had a very simular experience and he got the marriage
annuled.  It fairly easy if both parties agree and there is no common 
property.   As suggested, its time to see a lawyer.

-
wayne

422.6So, things didn't work out...no need to be rude.SSDEVO::GALLUPyou can't erase a memoryWed Mar 07 1990 23:1916
	 RE: .0
	 
>    Need a little help, troops.  My son is an Air Force officer stationed
>    in Germany.  In October (while stationed in Tucson) he married a mall
>    rat in Vegas.  Flew her to Germany in December.  She left him in
>    January.  Seems she missed her friends.

	 I find the term "mall rat" really derogatory/offensive.

	 Nothing like respecting another individual, eh?


	 kath_angry

	
422.7CONURE::AMARTINSave a Dolphin, Sink tunaboats!Wed Mar 07 1990 23:549
    KAth, although I see where you might find some incling of offensive
    wording in there... But I dont think that is what he is saying.
    
    Do you know what a "mall rat" is?
    
    He knows this girl/woman... you (nor I) know her at all.  for all we
    know, should actually be a "mall rat".
    
    Just an opinion.
422.8SSDEVO::GALLUPpassion of your aching soulThu Mar 08 1990 03:3725
    
.7>    Do you know what a "mall rat" is?

	 Being as I'm from Tucson (where this girl was from), i'll
	 give you the "Tucson definition."

         A "mall rat" is a person that hangs around at malls (was also
         used to refer to women on the UofAz campus that didn't go to
         college there, just hung out on the Mall, a grassy area about
         1/2 mile long in front of the Student Union) for a living
         attempting to find an easy pickup for the night (or longer)
         looking for a sugar daddy.  They usually accept money/gifts
         for their services.

	 It was a quite commonly used term in Tucson.

	 And I would be QUITE offended if anyone even threw that term
	 in my direction.

	 Although, it IS just my interpretation.

	 kathy

	 	  

422.10I have my suspicions...QUICKR::FISHERDictionary is not.Thu Mar 08 1990 11:237
    Unless the Army has changed a lot, they are going to make sure he sends
    her some money every month (or they'll send it for him) so it really
    depends on her "good nature" as to whether or not she will let him out
    of the marriage through any easy means.  If she wants the money she can
    have things dragged out for a while.
    
    ed
422.11Just say *NO* to gold-diggers...BUFFER::PCORMIERThe more laws, the less justiceThu Mar 08 1990 11:308
    RE: -1  .0 is asking about getting the marriage annuled (which means
    for all intents and purposes, it *never* existed), not advice on
    divorce. Why would the military, in all it's infinite wisdom, force
    a GI to send support to someone to whom is is not married ????
    Seems it shouldn't cost him anything, since she already split, he
    doesn't even have to pay for her plane ticket home......
    
    Paul C.
422.123 ways to do anything, the right way, the wrong way and the Army way.BANZAI::FISHERDictionary is not.Thu Mar 08 1990 13:3213
    RE: .11.  I believe all statements indicate that the marriage currently
    exists in which case the Army knows about it.  I also believe that the
    estranged spouse must sign some papers before either an annulment or
    a divorce can occur.  If she truly wants to "be done with it" then she
    will sign those papers and get him off the hook.  If she is looking for
    a free ride for as long as possible, then I doubt that an annulment can
    occur and a divorce will be in order.
    
    The Army isn't given to deciding things on the basis of logic (like "she
    left therefopre I shouldn't have to pay her" but more to rules like "a
    marriage exists therefore ...").
    
    ed
422.13 MCIS2::WALTONJohn Boy This!Thu Mar 08 1990 13:5010
    Well, if current experience is any indicator, I can tell you that if he
    gets an annulment, (and there are no kids, of course) he will be free
    and clear.  If he has to divorce here, it should be done in the states. 
    And like most states, if they have been married a short while, no kids,
    no assets, etc... the service won't order him to pay her unless a
    CIVILIAN court orders it.  All the DOD will do is enforce a court order
    of payment (if one is made).  They certainly won't make him pay her if
    they get a annulment, or if the divorce is decreed with no alimony.
    
    Sue
422.14Did I miss the point?QUICKR::FISHERDictionary is not.Thu Mar 08 1990 14:035
    My point was: Prior to the annulment, the service will assure that she
    gets money, won't they?  Then what is the incentive for her to agree to
    an annullment?
    
    ed
422.15WAHOO::LEVESQUEMakaira IndicaThu Mar 08 1990 16:198
     Kath-
    
     Are you offended by the term "prostitute?" Probably not. Would you be
    offended if the term was applied to you? Probably. Try to look at this
    in the same light- nobody is using the term mall rat to describe you or
    anyone you know.
    
     The Doctah
422.16SSDEVO::GALLUPI feel a change of season...Thu Mar 08 1990 17:3338
    
>     Are you offended by the term "prostitute?"

	 Doctah...I'm offended that someone who's son liked this girl
	 enough to marry her, but it didn't work out would actually
	 have the gall to call his STILL daughter-in-law what is, in
	 my neck of the woods, akin to calling her a prostitute.

	 He can call her anything he wants, don't mind me, but were I
	 the girl and my father-in-law had said something like that
	 about me, you can bet your bottom dollar it wouldn't be a
	 clean break.

	 
>    Try to look at this
>    in the same light- nobody is using the term mall rat to describe you or
>    anyone you know.

	 Did I ever say it WAS?  Did I ever say I found it "offensive
	 toward me"???

	 Nope. Didn't think so.

	 Imagine, some girl that married a guy she really
	 thought she loved.  She was young and he picked her up from
	 everything she knew and moved her over to Germany, where she
	 doesn't speak the language, she CAN'T work and she sits in
	 the house all day.  She's lonely.  Everything she grew up
	 with is gone!  He's in the field for days at time and she
	 knows NO ONE.

	 It amazes me that not a single one of you seem to give her
	 any simpathy...or understand what SHE is going thru.


	 Least of all this guy with his derogatory remarks.

	 kath_seeing_blatent_one-sidedness
422.17This wasn't supposed to turn into a soap operaBUFFER::PCORMIERThe more laws, the less justiceThu Mar 08 1990 18:226
    RE -1  The "poor girl" should've know what she was in for, as far as
    being the wife of a military officer. Missing one's friends seems like
    a really poor excuse for ducking out on a marriage. Maybe it turned out
    not to be the free ride she was looking for....who knows ????
    
    Paul C. 
422.18set flame^^^^^^^^CSC32::HADDOCKAll Irk and No PayThu Mar 08 1990 18:2710
    re -1  Kath
    
    I find *all* of the excuses you give as pretty shallow reasons
    to break up a marrige.  What would you have said if the situation
    had been the other way around.  He had taken her to Germany, then
    dumped her becaues she interferred with his time with *his* 
    friends.
    
    Talk about one sided???
    fred();
422.19SSDEVO::GALLUPput your hand inside the puppet headThu Mar 08 1990 21:5559
           <<< Note 422.18 by CSC32::HADDOCK "All Irk and No Pay" >>>
                             -< set flame^^^^^^^^ >-

    re -1  Kath
    
>    I find *all* of the excuses you give as pretty shallow reasons
>    to break up a marrige.


	 I didn't say they weren't shallow...I said they were REAL!!!


	 And since when is UNHAPPINESS in a marriage considered
	 "shallow."

	 I think it was stupid of her to not give it a try and to work
	 at it, but does she deserve to be TRASHED by the unfeeling
	 people in here?

	 One thing I would like to know......how old is she?
	 
> What would you have said if the situation
>    had been the other way around.  He had taken her to Germany, then
>    dumped her becaues she interferred with his time with *his* 
>    friends.

	 No, that would NOT be "the other way around".  If SHE had
	 taken HIM to Germany, she was in the Army, SHE was the one in
	 the field and such and HE was the one that sat home because
	 he couldn't work over there and such, YES!  F-in' YES!  I
	 would side with him!!
	    
>    Talk about one sided???

	 I'm not being one-sided.  I can imagine the pain and the
	 problems and such this man and his son are going thru...the
	 concern.  But *I* also feel for the girl because I KNOW that
	 sometimes things aren't as glamourous as they seem and
	 sometimes being lonely and alone can be devastating.

	 I have simpathy......forgive me for caring, please?  All I'm
	 asking is that the father-in-law quit trashing someone else's
	 name and have a little compassion for what could be a
	 scared/lonely little girl.


	 But then again, I suppose compassion for her reasons for
	 "leaving a man" are a little too much to ask for in this
	 conference.


	 The problem here as that all you think this is a black and
	 white situation....Well, I have news for you, it isn't.  Both
	 sides of something like this have thoughts and FEELINGS and
	 deserve a little compassion and understanding.  And just a
	 little respect once in awhile.


	 kathy
422.20WAHOO::LEVESQUEMakaira IndicaFri Mar 09 1990 11:4018
     Kathy-
    
     You are making a load of suppositions regarding this woman. You
    imagine her, from your description, to be a poor, lonely girl that made
    a mistake. Being somewhat cynical, I can just as easily see the
    possibility that she is a cold, calculating woman determined to get a
    free ride from a poor, lonely serviceman. Now neither of our imagined
    possibilities may be correct.
    
     Since her father in law has a slightly better idea of what kind of
    woman she is than we do, I am willing to give him the benefit of the
    doubt when he describes her as a "mall rat," just as I gave a woman who
    described a man as "a snake" the benefit of the doubt in another
    conference. One could just as easily be "offended" by the serpentine
    reference as by the rodent reference. I really think you are bothered
    by this because you wouldn't want anyone to refer to you as a mall rat.
    
     The Doctah
422.21SALEM::KUPTONFri Mar 09 1990 11:5921
    Let's get back to the original question and predicament.
    
    1. If she was NOT married to him before he went into the military,
       the military will take a view of his case. They do not consider
       marriages to active duty personnel to be in the best interest
       of the service or the soldier.
    
    2. He should see the base lawyer and get advice.
    
    3. He should get a civilian lawyer to get a decree to stop any 
       payments to her from his check. Military won't do it until the
       divorce, but they will on an order from a civilian court. You
       could probably get it done in NH.
    
    4. He should file for both annulment AND divorce. The divorce should
       be for abandonment and desertion. He should also find out if
       she's been seen with another man and add adultery.
    
    Good Luck and let us know...
    
    Ken
422.22PEKING::NASHDWhatever happened to Capt. Beaky?Fri Mar 09 1990 19:377
    IMHO, we all have a past during which we all made mistakes and some
    of them we would like to forget.  We are not here to judge either
    married person in .0 .
    
    It seems to be that only 2 people really knew what happened. 
    
    
422.23Anyway....off to other discussions.SSDEVO::GALLUPjust a vampire for your loveSat Mar 10 1990 19:5913
>    <<< Note 422.22 by PEKING::NASHD "Whatever happened to Capt. Beaky?" >>>

>    IMHO, we all have a past during which we all made mistakes and some
>    of them we would like to forget.  We are not here to judge either
>    married person in .0 .
>    
>    It seems to be that only 2 people really knew what happened. 

	 Exactly.

	 k
    

422.24AGAIN, SHE GETS NOTHINGMCIS2::WALTONJohn Boy This!Tue Mar 13 1990 13:4941
    Let me state this one more time, the army won't give her anything
    without a court order.  ***NO MONEY OR ANYTHING***
    
    Are we clear on this?  The army doesn't send a portion of a
    servicemembers check anywhere unless one of two things happen.  
    
    	A)	The servicemembers begins an allotment to a financial
    institution, or 
    
    	B) 	A duly appointed civilian authority (i.e. court) issues a
    judgement against the servicemember.  
    
    
    	The service couldn't care less if he is married, divorced or
    whatever.  He is drawing certain allowances for married persons, and at
    the finalization of the 'divorce' they will 
    
    	A) stop some of the allowances. 
    
    	B) begin payments to the person awarded them.
    
    
    The point of all this is that she probably won't get alimony, given the
    particular circumstances, and as they have no children she won't get
    child support.  The assets will be handled like most divorces, and that
    will be the end of it.  
    
    Having been military all my life, and having seen this and just about
    everything else under the sun, I can tell you that it happens quite
    often.  It is to bad that this woman couldn't see what an opportunity
    she had to live in Europe for several years, on an officers pay!!!  I
    am living for the day that my husband draws an overseas tour, I can't
    wait.  Think about it, Paris, Rome, Italy, the Alps, Switzerland,
    etc... for no more $$$ than we spend to go to Disney world!!  And many
    of the trips are less than a long weekend up north in the
    winter!!!!!!!1
    
    
    
    My 2cents worth!
    
422.25They took my wifes allotment out of my pay!MILKWY::BUSHEEFrom the depths of shattered dreams!Tue Mar 13 1990 16:3712
    
    	RE: .24
    
    	I disagree, I got married while I was in the Army (1967) and
    	they took out my wife's allotment from my check automatically.
    	I had no say in the matter and btw, it wasn't because we lived
    	apart. This was right here in Massachusetts at Ft. Devens!! This
    	was my last duty station to kill the remaining time I had left
    	after returning from Nam (11 months).
    
    
    	G_B
422.26IMHO???DISCVR::GILMANThu Mar 15 1990 18:412
    What does IMHO mean?  I see this frequently in notes and I don't
    know what it means.    Jeff
422.28Things are different in 1990!@MCIS2::WALTONJohn Boy This!Fri Mar 16 1990 11:3630
    I am assuming that you are out of the army now.  Lots of things have
    changed with the service in the last 10 years.  For one thing, the
    finance office does not allocate pay anymore.  For another, they will
    *not* redirect a servicemembers pay without a court order, or by
    direction of an act of the DOD (for example 'loss of pay due to a Field
    Grade Article 15').
    
    	When a servicemember marries, they are entitled to an increase in
    their pay.  They are give an meals allowance (Seperate Rations), and
    the housing allowance.  This housing allowance is broken up into the
    Basic Allowance for Quarters (BAQ) and the Variable Housing Allowance
    (VHA).  If the office in question lived on post, he didn't get the
    BAQ/VHA.  There is no "wife's allotment", nor is there a "dependent
    allotment" anymore.  If there were an armed conflict, the service
    member could elect to have the bulk of his pay deposited in an account
    accesable by his wife, and take th remander in script, but this is done
    at the direction of the service member, not DOD.  
    
    	The young officer in question will be forced to comply with any
    civilian award of spousal support, but the service won't allocate a
    portion of his pay without A) his authorization, or B) a court order. 
    Since he should be divorced in the U.S. (to avoid possible
    complications later) and many courts here wouldn't award alimony based
    upon the briefness of the union, and the lack of children/community
    assets, there is a healthy chance that he won't have to pay her
    anything.  
    
    	That's the way it is in 1990.  
    
    Sue
422.29SSDEVO::GALLUPI came, I saw, I deleted your files.Mon Mar 19 1990 18:1713

	 RE: IMHO
	 
>    In my humble opinion


	 Humm......I don't know, sometimes I think it means "In my
	 haughty opinion"


	 kath
	 
422.30for the not-so-meek among us...CASDEV::SALOISlacrimae rerum...Mon Mar 19 1990 18:466
    
    
    And of course, there's always IMNSHO.......
    
    in my not so humble opinion....
    
422.31The H debateCLYPPR::FISHERDictionary is not.Tue Mar 20 1990 01:276
    re: .29 IMHO, When I say it, it's Humble, when someone else says it
    it's Haughty.
    
    :-)
    
    ed
422.32So .. woamen who frequent the Malls are .... ?AHIKER::EARLYBob Early CSS/NSG Dtn 264-6252Tue Mar 20 1990 15:2150
re: 422.0 

>Need a little help, troops.  My son is an Air Force officer stationed
>in Germany.  In October (while stationed in Tucson) he married a mall
>rat in Vegas.  Flew her to Germany in December.  She left him in
>January.  Seems she missed her friends.

    Is there something missing here ? Is this request in concert 
    with your son's wishes, doing what you can to help him ?
    
    "Leaving  hubby"  is  not  necessarily  grounds  for  annulement  OR
    divorce. That depends on "how" the split took place.
    
    
>My question is:  Wouldn't an annulment seem appropriate here?  Is an
>annulment a real legal alternative to a divorce?  Anyone know of a
>legal firm in Nashua that could help my son get started?  It would
>have to be handled remotely.....i.e., my son in Germany, the girl in
>Arizona, etc.  Jaysus, what a mess.
    
    It is possible for Servicepeople to get a "hardship" reassignement.
    Whether or not he wants to live withe her could be another question.

    Its not clear  how  long  they  were  married  before  departing for
    Germany, nor what rank the man is (financial ability, perceived
    maturity level).    
        
>Would appreciate any help.  Being married for 35 years the the same
>woman has me ill-equipped to help the boy out.
    
    Definately a "Lawyer" needed here, there, etc.
    
    

re: Mall Rat...
    
    Great name .. i gotta pass this on to my kids and their friends ..
    it seems the "mall" (as in a collection of stores ) has replaced the 
    "corner", "malt shop", etc as  a  hangout for todays teens (at least
    in mid Massachusetts) ...
    
    and implying that all the females  are somewhat "less than maritally
    desirable" ..  is a real slam  ...  considering your son married one
    of them ... 
    
    Has this altered your opinion of your son's intellectual ability ?
    
    Bob