Conference quark::mennotes-v1

>I often think that other men will think less of me if I share
>    my innermost thoughts. I fear they will laugh if I tell them my
>    weaknesses, or maybe they'll think I'm 'less' of a man. I tire of
>    having to keep my guard up. 

 I have learned to stop worrying (so much) about what other people think of me.
I still worry a little, but I have gotten to the point where I feel that I 
know who and what I am, and if people don't like it that's their tough luck.
Long ago I learned that some people just wouldn't like me no matter what- so
I stopped trying to appease them and started to ignore them.

>I tire at having to defend my maleness to
>    women, who want to castrate me. 
 
 I wonder why you feel this way. Few women actually want to (figuratively)
castrate you.

>I tire of trying to make sure
>    that I don't "slip" and say something that might offend someone else.

 Me too.

>    	I enjoy being a man. I enjoy my strength. I enjoy having power. I
>    enjoy exerting it. I enjoy opening a door, being protective, being
>    male. I'm sick and tired of having to defend it in the name of equal
>    rights or valuing differences. 

 Refuse to defend it. Just say "value _my_ difference."

>Men constantly giving in and
>    refusing to fight back the tide of accusations against us. 

 Perhaps they feel there are more worthwhile fights to be had. Perhaps they 
agree with some of the charges. Perhaps they realize that no matter what we
say, we won't be able to change the opinions of the self-appointed chosen few.

>I feel threatened by feminism. 

 There's not really that much to be afraid of. By and large, most just want to
be treated as equals. That seems fair enough.

>    	Is the reason that men are losing the male identity because we have
>    failed to bond to one another in the same way that women have always 
>    bonded? 

 No, not really. We currently lack the status of being politically correct.
So what, says I. 

>	Have we begun to lose our identity? Is it too late for us?? 

 Only if you let it.

>Will we
>    have to fight the opposite sex to retain our self esteem??

 You shouldn't. There's no reason your intrinsic value should depend on 
anyone else, male or female.

 The Doctah

>    	As the world becomes more unisex in its decisions and operation, I
>    find myself becoming angry that I have few close confidential male
>    friends. I often think that other men will think less of me if I share
>    my innermost thoughts. I fear they will laugh if I tell them my
>    weaknesses, or maybe they'll think I'm 'less' of a man. I tire of

     I would hazzard a guess here and say I believe that MANY men feel
     the same way - particularly since (IMHO) many forms of male bonding
     are looked on with suspicion by both sexes - men have to a certain
     extent been left behind by the womens movement, feeling at best
     (in many cases) confused about their role in society and alone.
     In the 80's it is still not totally socially acceptable for men
     to cry or show any feelings which may be considered a sign 
     of weekness. 
    
>    having to keep my guard up. I tire at having to defend my maleness to
>    women, who want to castrate me. I anger at being challenged about
>    'supposed sexist' words like "girls". I tire of trying to make sure
>    that I don't "slip" and say something that might offend someone else.

    I have had this problem a few times - I mostly get angry - not at
    the fact that some women get upset at being called "girls" but
    at the fact that the same women will use the term "boys" when
    referring to their male counterparts. Neither term particularly
    upsets me; the hypocrisy of this situation does. There will always
    be a psudo-militant group more concerned with semantics that with
    the really IMPORTANT issues at hand. 
        
>    	I enjoy being a man. I enjoy my strength. I enjoy having power. I
>    enjoy exerting it. I enjoy opening a door, being protective, being
>    male. I'm sick and tired of having to defend it in the name of equal
>    rights or valuing differences. 

    I enjoy being ME! in my case that means being proud of *my* personal
    achievements and of who I am. Part of that is my being male. But
    I take a greater amount of please in achieving my personal goals
    than being "strong" or "having power". The greatest amount of personal
    satisfaction I feel, is when I achieve my goals, without trampling
    on others to achieve them.
    
        I do get angry sometimes with the system though. A couple of years
    back I had to hire a new operator for a firm I was working with.
    I had 3 applicatnts apply; two male and one female. One male was
    clearly the person for the job. He had experience, was prepared
    to work shifts, had reliable transport and glowing references from
    his previous employers. I was told by my management that the woman
    had to be hired to fulfill some sort of labour department "quota"
    despite the fact she had no experience, had made it clear that she
    would be unable to work some shifts and weekends and have average
    sort of references. I had to fight tooth and nail with upper
    management to get the person I felt was best suited for the job.
    To me - it was an open and shut case. Yet my management were more
    concerned about being labelled sexist than they were about finding
    the right person for the job. Thats the way it goes I guess...
    
>    	Are there any men in this company who feel the same way? Or am I
>    alone in this world? Sometimes I feel like I'm standing on top of
>    Everest, naked to the universe...alone. Men constantly giving in and
>    refusing to fight back the tide of accusations against us. I feel threatened
>    by feminism. I feel that once they exert any more influence it could be
>    the demise of my gender. Am I being foolish????

    There are dominant/power hungry people of both sexes who seek to
    improve their positions at the expense of the other. Unfortunately
    these people (whom I believe to the the minority) make themselves
    seen and heard far more often than those who seek true equality.
    This often gives one the impression that these people are the norm.
    They are not the norm, nor do I believe that these people represent
    the majority of those involved with the feminist movement.
                
>    	Is the reason that men are losing the male identity because we have
>    failed to bond to one another in the same way that women have always 
>    bonded? 
    
    Men bond in a different way to women (IMHO) eg:2 men who have fought
    in war together; who have faced death together develop a special
    bond. Sometimes this bond is unspoken. Women perhaps communicate
    better than men in terms of verbal expression but male bonding is
    expressed differently; in gestures,smiles,backslaps friendly
    competitiveness etc. This is perhaps because men have not traditionally
    been permitted by society to verbally express feeling such as
    brotherly love,pain and sadness.
    
>    Many years ago I read a passage that went something to the effect:
>    A woman and her daughter met after the mother returned home from work
>    and the child excitedly told her, "Mommy, I saw a man today!" 
>    
      I dont think this will happen - but I can understand your use
    of this example. I believe that men and women will be, in the future
    more free to make their own decisions on a variety of issues. It
    will be completely acceptable for a woman to be a managing director
    of a major company or a leader of a country. It will also be acceptable
    for men to enter occupations traditionally dominated by women eg:
    nursing etc.
    
>    Have we begun to lose our identity? Is it too late for us?? Will we
>    have to fight the opposite sex to retain our self esteem?? Will we
>    allow ourselves to become nothing more than sperm donators?? 
    
     I dont believe women are a superior sex anymore than I believe
    men are. Both sexes are *different* in many ways. One thing I have
    noticed is that the sexes compliment each other fairly well; Where
    one sex is weak in a certain area, the other is strong. But militant
    groups on both sides of the fence like to ignore this and constantly
    compete for superiority. They are, in the end deluding only themselves
    and making the communications gap between the sexes even wider.
    These militants strike me as basically insecure in themselves. They
    attempt to justify this insecurity by expressing their contempt
    for their opponents in a very vocal manner.
    
    
        Just my humble opinions
    
    Phil
    

Just to make it clear, when I responded to Ken's original proposal, I
rejected the idea of "FMO" topics, feeling (as those who have seen me expound
on this subject in WOMANNOTES can well attest) that such artificial restrictions
actually inhibit freedom of expression.  I also said that I felt that the
supportive and relatively non-combative atmosphere of MENNOTES would not
incite people (of either sex) to respond in an abusive manner.  (Of course,
should such abuses occur, they will be swiftly dealt with by the moderators.)

I suggested to Ken that he open his note with a request for supportive
responses.  I think this is an excellent topic and we, as men, can
use this as a place to express some of the deep-seated feelings that we tend
to normally repress.

I would appreciate that no further discussion of "process" be entered here.
I'll be happy to discuss these matters with anyone by mail.

Now, back to our note, already in progress.

				Steve

    re:.0
    
    I'm very sorry you feel that way, as a feminist. Because the most
    vocal feminists usually have the most radical ideas, I can under-
    stand your perspective.
    
    Please tell me honestly, was this note to elicite responses or are
    you really distressed?
                           
    Kate

    
    Ken,
            I'm not trying to tell you that you should feel any differently
            in this note -- I'm just explaining my personal view of
            things.  Maybe it will open up the possibility of looking
            at things in a different light.
    
            Maybe I'm looking at the other side of the coin, but I find
            more possibilities, more freedom, and more joy in my
            friendships with both men and women now than ever before.
            I feel freer now to share things with male friends than I
            did years ago.  My bonding with males was always based on
            mutual interests and never really had an exclusionary
            quality as far as women were concerned.
    
            It is probably due, in part, to my particular definition
            of my self and my masculinity.  I enjoy strength and power
            too, and I've always tended to define them for myself as
            the strength to support others in times of need, and the
            power to encourage fairness and equality.  Power for me
            has been things like running a Z-theory group within a
            very conservative X-theory company and making it work.
    
            Part of what I'm saying is that I don't see that I've lost
            anything through new social attitudes.  If anything, I've
            gained a lot of freedom to express myself to males and
            females alike.  I don't feel any less of a male when I'm
            with powerful women -- I feel more alive as a person.
    
            I'd be interesting in hearing what you feel males have
            lost, and why male identity is threatened.  Thanks.
    
            Ron
    
    

re:.8
    
    Alfred, my question to Ken about his feeling distressed was a sincere
    one. I didn't mean for it to seen antagonistic. I just wanted to
    know if he might carry those feelings aroung with him. Ken, if I
    offended you I apologise. 
    
    American Heritage Dictionary:
    
    FEMINISM: An advocate of political, social and  economic equality
              of men and women.
                     
    I'm a feminist and so, probably are most of you men. Anyone of you
    care to admit it? C'mon. I dare ya!
    
    Kate ;^)
    
    
    

re: .11
    
>    American Heritage Dictionary:
>    
>    FEMINISM: An advocate of political, social and  economic equality
>              of men and women.
>                     
>    I'm a feminist and so, probably are most of you men. Anyone of you
>    care to admit it? C'mon. I dare ya!
    
	By this definition, I'm a feminist, and a lot of the motor-mouth
    fanatics who claim to be are definitely not.  Equality of opportunity
    and the "quota system" (or whatever you want to call it) are mutually
    exclusive.  I think everyone should have an equal shot at jobs, credit,
    places to live, elected office, etc. based *exclusively* on his or her
    qualifications.  I personally would resent like hell losing a job to
    someone less qualified than I because she's a woman and women haven't
    had equal opportunity in the past.  To me, that's like saying it's OK
    for you to steal my car because my great-grandfather stole your great-
    grandfather's horse.


re: .0

	Maybe you're not hanging around with the right men.  There are a
    lot of us who prefer intimate friendship to superficial "guy stuff."
    Doesn't make us any less sure or proud of our masculinity.  I feel
    sorry (if I feel anything at all) for those who think it looks funny
    when I give one of my male friends a big abrazo (that's a *real* hug,
    not one of those deals where you bend forward and touch your chests
    together and do a lot of back-slapping).
	
	Sorry if this sounds like a platitude, but you can't lose your
    identity -- you can only surrender it.  The quickest way to do that is
    to spend a lot of time worrying about what other people think about
    you.  For example, do you really value the opinion of someone who's
    enough of a jerk to get all in an uproar when you call women "girls"
    and then calls men "boys"?

	A small aside -- my wife (who is one of the two or three best
    people I know) used to give me a certain amount of grief when I'd
    call a young woman a "girl".  Once we got a mutually acceptable
    definition figured out (younger than 15 or so is probably a "girl"),
    we quit having the discussion.  I also persuaded her to stop saying
    "gals," because where I grew up in the South, that word was a
    pejorative term used to refer to black women and was therefore not
    acceptable.

re: .1

	The rest of what I would have said here has already been said 
    better by The Doctah.


	                                                 /////
							 |||||
							 \___/

    Ken:
    
    Usually I'm READ only in this file but this sort of made me feel
    "wounded" inside so thought I'd respond.
    
    Like Kate, I feel sorry that is how you feel.  Nothing I do can
    change your views.
    
    However, think about today's nuclear society.  If we retained those
    wonderful old values, the world would be so different.  It is nearly
    impossible to stop change.  It is difficult now for families to
    stay together with the man being the primary breadwinner, and the
    woman taking the traditional role and caring and nurturing.  Some
    of us wish that this way of life still existed, but unfortunately,
    it isn't meant to be.
    
    Most woman want to just be considered equal in the work place, to
    be valued for their intelligence and contributions in life, just
    as men are.  Women are still struggling to attain this goal.
    
    I consider myself to be a traditional woman.  But I also believe
    in equality.  I wouldn't want to go back to those days where women
    were totally dependent on men for everything, baby machines who
    aged early from constant childbirth and caring 24 hours a day for
    the elders and children in the family.  Cohabitation and child-rearing
    should be a "sharing" thing.  I want my own identity.  The men in
    my life that deserve respect (my male friends, boyfriend, male members
    of the family, co-workers) get my utmost respect and consideration.
     But those men who DON'T deserve my respect simply won't get it
    because they are a MAN.  The women in my life are given and asked
    for the same considerations.
    
    You have a very good point in this, it's given me something to think
    about!
    
    Doctah and Mike - you give good feedback!
    

    re:1
    
     I'm going to stay clear of this note. I feel unjustly persecuted.
     But in my last note I wrote FEMINISM: I meant FEMINIST:.
     
    Respectfully,
    Kate
    

    	RE: .16  Herb
    
    	> I really don't think this discussion was intended to be about 
    	> politics or business, I believe it was intended to be be about 
    	> feelings.
    
    	Yeah, that's what I thought, too.
    
    	Mark Levesque (the Doctah) got the topic off to such an excellent
    	start by talking about *his* feelings and *his* approach to the
    	situation - (great note, Mark!!!)
    
    	However, after that, things started degenerating into the usual
    	"I'd rather talk about how badly I think of feminists and why" 
    	rathole (which, moderators take note, is a matter of OPINION and 
    	is not a revelation of anyone's own FEELINGS!)
    
    	I know how hard it is for some men to open up about their feelings,
    	and I (as well as Kate, I'm sure) would *really* like to be
    	supportive and sympathetic to what some of you are *FEELING* (and
    	believe it or not, I have more empathy for those actual feelings
    	than some of you would probably imagine!)
    
    	However, if you can't open up with your feelings, please don't
    	compensate for it by slamming the feelings of others instead.
    
    	Talking about *your* personal feelings (even the negative ones)
    	is *not* the same thing as trashing someone else.  Please keep
    	the difference in mind.
    
    	Thanks very much.

 Under that definition, Kate, I am indeed a feminist.

 The Doctah

ps- I hope my mail did not contribute to your feelings of persecution. It was
intended to do exactly the opposite.

Hi Ken,

I'm tired, too. 

I found it very interesting that some things in your note had me 
shouting, "Yes, me too!!!" and other lines had me shouting, "No 
way!!!"

I don't have time to analyze why I reacted this way, but here are is 
my first impression:

Lines I really related to:
=========================

>I often think that other men will think less of me if I share
>my innermost thoughts. I fear they will laugh if I tell them my
>weaknesses, or maybe they'll think I'm 'less' of a man. I tire of
>having to keep my guard up. 

I'm with you.

>I enjoy being a man. I enjoy my strength. I enjoy having power. I
>enjoy exerting it. 

If it's power defined as "the ability to act," I'm right there with 
you. 


Things I couldn't relate to:
===========================

>I tire at having to defend my maleness to women, who want to castrate
>me. I anger at being challenged about 'supposed sexist' words like
>"girls". I tire of trying to make sure that I don't "slip" and say
>something that might offend someone else. 

I have never met a woman who wanted to castrate me.  I don't see it in 
an either/or frame of mind; my support for women does not make me less 
of a man.  Along the same lines, my supporting women by trying to 
change my sexist language does not say anything, necessarily, about my 
masculinity, it doesn't threaten it in any way.

>I enjoy being a man. I enjoy my strength. I enjoy having power. I
>enjoy exerting it. 

If it's power defined as "power over others," then I think that it's a 
competitive trap, and I can't relate.

>I enjoy opening a door, being protective, being male. I'm sick and
>tired of having to defend it in the name of equal rights or valuing
>differences. 

I dunno.  I can't relate.  I still open doors for men and for women, 
and I still consider myself a feminist.  I think that the key is 
choice.  Are you opening doors because it is linked to your 
masculinity or because you choose and enjoy it?
    
>I feel threatened
>by feminism. I feel that once they exert any more influence it could be
>the demise of my gender. Am I being foolish????
>    
>Is the reason that men are losing the male identity because we have
>failed to bond to one another in the same way that women have always 
>bonded? 

I think that feminism is calling not for the demise of the male but 
for the demise of the traditional, male gender role (and the demise of 
the traditional, female gender role).  If a man links his whole sense 
of masculinity in the gender role (and we are all trained to do this), 
then the destruction of that role is incredibly threatening.  If the 
role is destroyed, does that mean I become nothing?  Does that mean my 
manhood disappears?

Most feminism has never called for castration or the demise of the 
male.  It has called for a redefinition of the roles that we assign to 
people based on the presence of genitals.  It has called for an end to 
the strict and rigid enforcement of "check lists" of things that men 
are "supposed" to do and that women are "supposed" to do.  Instead, 
feminism says, let both males and females be fully human instead of 
assigning half the human characteristics to the man and half to the 
women.  

There is no human phychological characteristic inherent to the woman 
that is not inherent to the man.  "Inherent" meaning "present at 
birth."  For instance, being "nurturing" and "gentle" is just as 
"masculine" as it is "feminine"; as a birthright, men are just as 
nurturing as women (and women are just as "strong" and "mighty" as 
men).  

It is only after birth that we engage in a perverted conspiracy to 
hammer boy babies and girl babies into rigid roles that encompass only 
half of what a human being is capable of.  We tell our boys that they 
cannot be gentle and nurturing.  We tell our girls that they cannot be 
aggressive and mighty.  We effectively create half-people, who attempt 
to bond with another person to get the "other half" of human 
characteristics and end up resenting the other half for having what we 
think we cannot have.  

Sick.

In my mind, the elimination of sexism will allow both sexes to shed
the roles and to be more fully human.  We can couple out of true love,
as two whole human beings, instead of some desperate need to possess
characteristics that we think we lack in ourselves.  By being more 
nurturing, caring, gentle, and so forth, men can reclaim the 
"masculine" characteristics that have been systematically beaten out 
of us since birth, that have been denied us for so many years.  
Reclaiming the so called "feminine" characteristics is an act of 
liberation, not an act of sublimation and defeat.  The eradication of 
sexism _expands_ men.  We can still be powerful and strong and 
courageous and intelligent...and we can to our list nurturing and 
caring and gentle and feeling and creative and so forth.  The feminist 
process _adds_ to manhood; it doesn't subtract, kill, or destroy it.

>As the world becomes more unisex in its decisions and operation, I
>find myself becoming angry that I have few close confidential male
>friends. 

I agree with the second part of this sentence.  I too am angry that I 
have few, close confidential male friends.  However, I part company 
with you when you imply that it has something to do with the world 
becoming more unisex.  I think that the blame belongs solely on the 
male sex role that teaches men to compete against each other, to kill 
on another, to mistrust one another, and to hold each other in such 
contempt that we cannot be our natural, caring, gentle (and strong) 
selves around each other.

I attended a weekend of all-male workshops about intimacy a few days 
ago.  In one of the workshops, the counselor asked for a volunteer.  
The counselor held the volunteer's hand and asked him to look at each 
person in the eyes and say "Hello."  The volunteer was so nervous: he 
wouldn't maintain eye contact with any of us (including the counselor) 
for more than a second or two, his leg kept bounding around, his back 
was hunched up like he was folding over onto himself.  He was 
terrified, and so was I.

I imagined how hard it would be for me to get up in front of this 
group, to hold another man's hand (gay/strate, it doesn't matter, the 
fear is still the same, the package just looks a little different), to 
look without fear into the eyes of other men, to wave to them, to say 
hello to them, to see them as brothers instead of threats, to act 
silly in front of them, to be genuinely myself.

When I got in touch with my own embarrassment and fear, I reflected on 
men being the "strong and mighty" gender.  Yeah, right!  These strong 
and mighty people are quivering at the horrifying possibility of 
touching each other and of looking at each other deeply in the eyes.  
And I don't mean to make fun of the terror, because I was terrified, 
too; it was very, very real, and it squashed all playfulness and 
creativity of the men in the room.

What the heck did that to us men?  It's as if someone played a big 
joke on us all.  It's as if someone convinced us that certain 
aggressive, showy things meant "strong" and yet didn't teach us to be 
strong enough to hold each other and to look deeply into each others 
eyes, to nurture each other, to be gentle with each other.  In those 
areas, many mean are chicken sh*t (I know that _I_ am).  

What a sham!

I want to toss out that garbage that I was taught about being man and 
start being more of a human.  I feel as if I have forgotten much more 
than I have lost.  I feel that there is a whole realm of masculinity 
that I want to redefine as "masculine" from "feminine."  I want to be 
a man who is more fully human and who is so strong that he isn't 
afraid to hold another man or to cry.

...and I fully realize that to reclaim my masculine characteristics, I 
must, absolutely MUST, let women reclaim the feminine characteristics 
of strength, might, power, intelligence, aggression, and so forth.

End of my 2 cents.


							--Ger

  Special thanks to the Rat-Hole-Patrol for digging us out of that one!!

  I agree that an identity cannot be stolen, the very definition of
  having 'an identity' require that it be given away.

  The MALE IDENTITY: I would like to relate an anecdote passed on to me
  by a friend of mine, I guess you could say, "we've bonded."
  .... A successful and famous bullfighter is seen wearing an apron and
       washing dishes after a party. He is told, "You shouldn't be seen 
       like that, its not a manly thing to do."  
       His reply is, 
                     "I AM a man. everything I do is masculine."
  -michael-

    re:  .12
    
    >>>    we quit having the discussion.  I also persuaded her to stop saying
    "gals," because where I grew up in the South, that word was a
    pejorative term used to refer to black women and was therefore not
    acceptable.
    
    I'm from the South too.  There is/was nothing wrong with the term
    "gals."  It's commonly used.
    
    Dwight

    I would appreciate it if this note was not used to discuss "feminism"
    or "feminists".  Anyone who cares to do so is free to start another
    note (though I think one or two already exist here.)
    
    And again, I'll echo Ken's request for supportive responses.  It is not
    supportive to say "you shouldn't feel that way".
    
    Thanks for your understanding.
    
    				Steve

    Ken, you have a right to feel that way... there is lots of crap going
    on, but here is my ghumble advice; don't victimize yourself for others'
    faults...why? stick to people, friends, with your same values, and
    don't bother if others don't like your personality.  the world is full
    of interesting human beings, some very interesting and worth
    cultivating, others less so, it is up to us to choose to be where we
    feel most confortable, where we belong.  Mind you, I am a woman, and
    love to be with women, with men, and with kids, I never felt offended
    if a door was open for me (by a man) I also do it for others, so, where
    is the ofense? I never left less of a woman to receive attention from a
    man (meaning letting me pass before, or open a door, or helping put on
    a coat...etc, etc.) I only felt gratitude towards them.  I am afraid
    you you've been around to some rough speciments without much manners,
    but don't let THAT change yours.  Don't fight the other gender, just
    choose, and enjoy living.  God made us all, but we can greatly improve
    our OWN selves.  (This is my own personal view, and I stick to it)

    Thank you Ana (384.26). That's exactly what I was trying to say in my
    reply (.24), but it came out all jumbled because I felt so stongly and
    Steve brought it to my attention (Thanks, Steve!). I have now deleted
    reply .24, but it was meant to say what Ana said so beautifully.
    
    Sorry if I have offended anybody.
    
    Gilla
    
     

Re .20

I'm sorry if that was unsupportive.  I actually didn't mean to write 
so much.  I think what happened was that those workshops for men 
really shook me up, and when I saw the base note I did a core dump...

I apologize if I hurt anyone.

Maybe what I should focus on is my support of the statement, "I'm 
tired."  When I read that, I could really relate to it more than 
anything else in there.  I related to it in spite of me not being able 
to agree with half of what else was in there.

I am really, really tired, and I also feel disconnected from other 
men.  One of the reasons why I note in here is because I wanted to be 
with men more.  


							--Gerry

    re: -1
    
    Your note, (reply .20) was excellent and completely on the mark
    - who did it hurt????  For what are you apologizing?  For being
    a man saying the things women have been saying over and over again?
    For betraying your sex by exposing the "perverted scheme"?
    
    I'm with you - there is nothing to fear, nothing to loose and
    everything to gain.  The only loss is the "role" and as you so
    succinctly stated, those men who have bought the party line that
    "masculinity" is inextricably linked with the assigned role are
    certainly going to feel lost and empty with its demise.  And
    conversely, women who have felt oppressed by their roles are 
    now feeling refreshed and excited by the continuing demise of 
    women's traditional roles.  
    
    Women's roles were obviously limiting so we welcome the liberation.  
    Men's roles were much more subtlely limiting and men were taught not 
    to value what was outside those limits anyway.  It is no secret
    that society greatly values that which is outside the limits of 
    the female role, (independence is good/strong/male, dependence is bad/
    weak/female, etc), so women welcome the expanded opportunity into the
    "valuable" areas where men see no value outside the limits of
    their traditional roles.  
    
    So men can easily miss the liberating aspects of feminism and see only 
    loss.

    I am generally a "read only" participant to this notes file, but I feel
    compelled to say something in support of the base note.  I was recently
    confronted with a situation that brought me face-to-face with my own
    concept of "masculinity".  My wife and I have recently been fed up with
    the "cost-of-survival" in our area, and when my wife's employer asked
    her to take a 10% pay cut, she came home and asked "What is keeping us
    here?".  We sat down to really talk about it, and her only response to
    the question was "my close friendships".  When I thought about it, I
    realized that I don't HAVE any "close friendships"!  Not that I don't
    have friends, but that there is NOONE with whom I could let my guard
    down, and really have an intimate friendship.
    
    What a sad comment on my life!!!  I can't really blame this on my
    friends.  I am, because of all my "male programming", totally 
    incapable of letting my guard down for any other man!  I find it
    absolutely incredible that a totally covert (I never remember being "told"
    not to be "close" to other men) societal norm could have such a 
    dramatic impact on my ability to interact with other men!
    
    In any case, it did my heart a world of good to hear someone else
    talk about the "fear of intimacy" between men.  Hopefully, we can
    all work to a point where our lives will be enriched through truly
    "close" friendships...
    
    Rich-who-had-a-tough-time-even-responding-
    

 Thanks for your thoughts, Rich.

The recent replies remind me of something one of the facilitators said 
during the workshops last weekend.  The facilitator said that, when 
men drop their guards and become genuine around each other, we tend to 
be very playful and goofy characters.  He said that sometimes we get 
drunk to put ourselves in situations in which we can act like this 
without owning responsibility for it.  "Gosh, I was soooo drunk last 
night..."


							--Gerry

    re: .0 (Ken)
    	  
    	   I have a different experience of being male.  I suppose
    	that has something to do with the fact that I was raised 
    	during a time when being "male" had fewer stereotypical
    	strings associated with it.  My "power" lies in my ability 
    	to control my own destiny.  My "strengths" are many, and
    	are certainly not limited to the amount of force I can 
    	generate with my muscles. 

    	   I enjoy opening doors for people, but I don't reserve
    	this service exclusively for women.  It's not some outdated
    	sense of chivalry that leads me to hold the door, but a 
    	general sense of goodwill toward those around me.

	   In the bedroom, my pleasure comes not from dominating,
	but from sharing.  I prefer long, slow sessions of playful
	caressing to hot, steamy sex that lasts only a few minutes.
	To me, the intimacy is far more important than the physical
	expression of my manliness.  

	   I acknowledge the differences between men and women and
	rejoice in them; the curve of a woman's breast, the pitch
	of her voice, the smoothness of her skin.  I also revel in
	the qualities that women share with men; the strength of
	their minds, the depth of their emotions, and the power of
	their convictions.

	   Being "manly" doesn't mean realiance on brute force to 
	me.  It entails being man enough to set aside the need
	for such overt displays of prowess.

	- Greg