Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Hi, Chris-
    
    when you mention "suits, shirts, and statement ties" (to paraphrase)
    it isn't the stores that limit you...its *you* limiting you.
    
    Wear something else.
    
    Oh, you mean at "work"?  And you're in a "customer rep" situation?
    
    Well, me too.  Takes me forever to find ties ;-).  So, I express myself 
    in other ways; with interesting frames for my glasses; with my hair
    extremely long, and permed; and with my attitude...I can survive
    suithood.  But things can get way rad on the weekends and evenings!
    
    DougO 

        
    To the author - would you mind if a woman replied???
        
        
    I never thought much about men's clothing until my brother and I
    discussed it several months ago.  It seems that (at least in Pittsburgh)
    many of the men's fine clothing stores are now offering clothing for
    women - which some men feel is an intrusion.  The next time I went out
    shopping, I did notice that there are many more stores for women than
    men.  I'm not making any guesses as to why.  I've heard it said that
    women make the majority of purchases of clothing - both for themselves
    and their spouses, SO's, friends, family, etc.  If that is the case,
    then perhaps businesses feel they are catering to the people who they
    feel will do the buying.  Of course, this doesn't help men who are
    looking for more places which to shop.      
                                          
    I do agree that women have many more choices in the line of clothing...
    styles, stores, accessories, etc.  My question is what can men do
    in order to have more options (stores) available to them??
                                          
                                          
                                          
    Re: .1                                
                                          
    >>       when you mention "suits, shirts, and statement ties" (to 
    >>       paraphrase) it isn't the stores that limit you...its *you* 
    >>       limiting you.                
                                          
    >>Wear something else.                
             
    Doug - the following is strictly IMHO...
        
    To ask or advise someone to wear something else seems similar to
    asking/advising someone to change an aspect of the personality.
    People dress according to their personal taste.  Yes, dressing
    differently is an alternative but would it really help the person?
    It just reminds me of someone who is looking for a tennis court
    and is told to take up golfing since there aren't many courts in
    the vicinity.  Yes, he may learn to golf, but he still wants to
    play tennis.            
                            
                            
    Kris                    
                            

    RE: 1.
    
    >You are limiting you.
    
    I agree with 0. that the choices that men have for clothing is very
    limited.  For work, formal, or play.  Lets face it guys.  Shirts, Pants,
    Ties, Suspenders, Handkerchiefs that basically all we have.
    
    Women have a wide variety of clothing options to express themselves, in
    all types of atmospheres.  
    
    To add insult to injury MEN'S CLOTHING IS MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE. 
    Particularly if you do want the Armani Suits, etc...
    
    Prehaps the number of mens clothing stores is not so much a conspiracy
    as supply and demand economics.  I love clothes, especially what I call
    party clothes.  It is a lot easier to me to spend the hundreds required
    for these outfits than the suits I wear to DEC.  But even with the
    closet that I have my girlfriend, mother, sister, and most female
    friends have at least twice the clothing that I have.
    
    I have three pairs of boots, (Yes this guys from Texas) two pairs of 
    sneakers, three pairs of top-siders, three pairs of dress shoes, and 
    one wierd pair of shoes that is hard to catagorize.  But again how 
    many females own more than 12 pairs of shoes.  
    
    Not being sexist, just talking from my circle of friends, and
    relatives.
    
    I don't have any answers but I do agree the clothing situation is
    unfair, and I am not willing to cross-dress just to increase my variety
    although to each his own.
    
    If anyone has any suggestions on ways to show personality through
    clothing in a professional setting other than MORE ties, I like to
    know.
    
    

    Whoa!  
    
    re .2 (Kris), .3 (Chris), and .4 (Heaston from Texas)-
    
    OK.  I'm listening.
    
    My take on suits and ties years ago was that YES, bloody hell, they
    are very limiting styles of dress.  I resigned myself long ago to the
    opinion that if I'm gonna wear such things, my look will be limited.
    
    In no way do I mean to belittle your choice of style of dress.  But I
    sure don't have any advice to cope within that style!  Sorry if my
    remarks offended; not my intention.  Perhaps I should have merely said,
    I think you're outta luck.
    
    DougO

    RE: .5
    
    >Woman purchase clothing for the Man in their life??
    >Are there Gentleman out there who actually encourage this,
    >I'm curious now.
    
    Yes, my wife buys all my clothes, because she likes to, and I don't
    ever give a thought to my clothes.  I just put 'em on and forget about
    it. I usually wear jeans to work or a dark_suit_white_shirt_any_tie
    when I meet customers.
    
    If I have any preference at all it's for plainness.  When I select a
    tie in the morning the criteria are "no_spots" and "not_too_wrinkled".
    
    I see some of the men in my office that dress fashionably and they
    look good, but it's just not for me.
    
    Bob
   (BTW: I'm color blind, which doesn't help)
    
    
    

My wife and I have had numerous discussions on the relative merits of men's and
women's clothing.  Some of the points we have come up with:

	Men's clothing is made better.  This is a particular sore point;
	women's clothing is apparently designed to be worn for fewer years,
	and wardrobes changed more frequently.

	Women's clothing costs *more* for equivalent quality of manufacture.

	Getting things altered is not only easy, it is assumed at a men's
	store, but very hard to get done at a women's store.

	I say men have few choices in clothing.  My wife says women have
	a difficult time trying to figure out what is appropriate to wear.
	I must agree; going to work at my old, business-oriented job, I just
	put on a suit or a sport jacket and slacks and a tie, while my wife
	went through a difficult decision process to determine whether a
	particular dress was too "dressy" or too informal for work.  (It
	is a real problem; a couple of times she got random comments on the
	order of, "Oh, why are you so dressed up today?")  Also, going out to
	a formal affair, a man puts on a tux, plain and simple, while a woman
	has to decide on an evening gown.

	Men's shoes are usually more comfortable, and easier to find in the
	proper size, than women's shoes.

	Men's sizing is usually more accurate than women's.

	Little changes in men's styles, so a particular outfit will stay "in
	style" for a longer time than a women's outfit.

There are trade-offs both ways.

						Brian

    There's another side to this discussion, that is; that so far it
    has been in reference to primarily buisiness clothes. What about
    casual and/or romantic clothing? My wife can find countless items
    to wear to be romantic and sensual for me, but what can I do in
    return for her???? There's only so many styles of underwear for
    a man, I'd like to be able to do something for her that is exciting
    and sensual for her too.        
    
    Often times the hint of what is hidden can be even more exciting
    than that which is seen, one of the reasons for a woman to wear
    a special night gown for her S/O. Alas, there is not the same options
    for a man with respect to his S/O.               
    
    Just my observations for what it is worth.
    
    		Dave....

    I have one suggestion for the men in the area and in this note
    that can not find suitable clothing.  It's off the cuff (excuse
    the play on words 8*), but i don't mean it sarcastically....
    
    	Why not open a men's clothing store??  
    
    Maybe you could poll the men in this note and see what type of items
    they would like to have available to them in stores.
    
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Also an FYI:
    
    There is a men's store in the Pheasant Lane Mall, can't think of the name
    now, but they do have a wide selection of men's clothing.  They are
    fashionable, but not faddish.  I know several men that shop there, my
    SO is one and he is a sales person that works basically with government
    officials, so he can't look like he's from another planet.  It might
    be worth your while to breeze through.  I know they only carry designer
    names, not sure which, but it is very high quality.  Be prepared for
    the price.  I'll find out the name of the shop over the weekend and
    post it for you next week.
    
    
    ss

    
    RE: .10
    
    Hi SS,
       
         I don't live in New Hampshire where the Pheasant Lane Mall
         is located. I do however know exactly where it is
         THANKS!!!
    
         >> Open a Men's clothing store ??
    
         I'd offer to help finance one, but I already
         have a full-time job here at DEC...so managing it is
         out of the question.
    
         Any takers??
    
         --Christopher

    Well, I'm slowly managing to clean out the 15-year-old underpaid
    teacher clothes from John's closet. Most of the new ones come from
    catalogs: Lands' End, L.L. Bean, Wissota Trader, shoes from the
    Rockport outlet.  I guess you could say his style is modern lumberjack,
    which probably accounts for the fact that I have no problem finding
    clothes for him, although he's both "big and tall".
    
    I would take issue with the comment about men's clothing being more
    expensive than women's.  The same button-down oxford shirt that sells
    for $19.50 for men in the Lands' End catalog sells for twice that, same
    style, for women.  There's an advantage in having clothes that are less
    distinctive, too; you can wear them more often. 
    
    Marge

Re: .13

Having somehow gotten on International Male's mailing list and having
seen the last two catalogs, am I alone in thinking that most of the
clothing they offer is hideous and not at all sensual?

				Steve

    Re: .14
           
>>Having somehow gotten on International Male's mailing list 
    
   
    Now Steve....no need to be coy!!!  ;-)
    
    
    Kris
    
    

    
    Just a few more comments....
    
    Re: price.  I am a female in a customer rep situation so I have
    to invest heavily in suits etc. If you're going for well-made
    classics (Planet, Windsmoor, Aquascutum) then women's clothes
    are just as expensive (I needed a bridging loan for my last lot!)
    
    Re: buying for men. My boyfriend won't let me buy for him but he
    likes "adivce", so I bought him the "Colour for Men" book.
    Some of the photos are a bit oldfashioned, but the interesting bit
    is that it talkes about styles ("Classic", "Romantic", "Outdoors" etc) 
    as well as colours. We don't need the stereotypes, but my boyriend
    told me it was good for ideas....
                                                                      
    'gail
    
     
    

>Having somehow gotten on International Male's mailing list and having
>seen the last two catalogs, am I alone in thinking that most of the
>clothing they offer is hideous and not at all sensual?

For what it's worth:

When I look at that catalog, I think, "this is the gayest catalog I 
have ever seen.  I can't believe they ship this to strate men."

That's my gut reaction.

I'm not that keen on the clothing, but I sure enjoy looking through 
the catalog.


							--Gerry

>> When I look at that catalog, I think, "this is the gayest catalog I 
>> have ever seen.  I can't believe they ship this to strate men."

This got me wondering: what does a straight man looking at other men think
looks sexy?  Surely (just a guess here) women must be able to look at other
women and think that they look sexy, like they're out to arouse a man.  How
should a catalog look that attempts to market sexy clothing (for men to wear
to arouse women) to men?

						Brian

	I always thought men had plenty of options. Not as many as women
	but still more than enough for me. The one problem I have is that
	you don't find everything in one store often enough. Even department
	stores seem to either have only dress, casual, or in between. Sometimes
	two classes but never three and the quality varies.

	Fortunatly suits last a long time (at least since I don't have to
	wear them to work any more). As for "making statements" the silk
	Mickey Mouse tie I bought at WDW does it just fine for me when I
	have to wear a suit. I also have a white dress shirt with Mickey
	on it too. It's small but I know it's there. It looks great. I also
	wear a lot of dress shirts with French Cuffs. I've got a good
	collection of cuff links and picking the right pair for the 
	ocasion is a lot of fun.

	On women buying for men. My wife buys most of what I wear. I hate
	shopping, she loves it and knows what I like. I would not let her
	buy my suits (even if I didn't have to be there for the fitting)
	or my ties though. Women seem to have a strange (to me) tastes in
	such things. You can usually tell a man whose wife buys his suits
	because they break all the "dress for success" rules and generally
	make a man look like a total nurd. A matter of taste perhaps but
	I love the "dress for success" look and feel more comfortable in
	that kind of suit then most anything other than real casual stuff.
	Take me to Wallach's, Brooks Brothers, or B Altmans any day.

			Alfred

	PS: The one thing my wife still does wrong is buy me pink shirts.
	They sit in the back of the closet and get ignored. I don't care
	how good they look to her I don't like them.