Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Well, I'm not sure she HAS a boy-friend.  Another friend says he
    over-heard her telling another waitress that she's looking for a
    steady boy-friend.  But who knows....
    
    I meant the card as more of a humorous close to the uncomfortable
    chapter, showing there were no hurt feelings, but also to re-inforce
    that I was serious.  I didn't sign the card, but like I said, she
    knew it was from me.  Was a card that simply said 'dump him...'
    that bold, or just a silly answer?

    Why not just be totally open and honest with her?  If she can't
    be, it just ain't worth it!  However, she may be impressed by your
    honesty and open up.
    
    DON'T let your friend do the work, play a game, for you!  Games
    are for teenagers, not adults!
    
    No, I don't think you were "BOLD", just cautious and "feeling out"
    where she stood - committed to someone or not.
    
    I feel that the honesty route will make it or break it for you,
    an answer you need to know so that you are/aren't wasting your time.
    
    
    -jeff-
    

    re: .3
    
    Good advice given in .3.  That is what I would do.
    
    Mike

>< Note 307.3 by WOODRO::OLSON "Mensch!" >
>                      -< Honesty "IS" the best policy!!! >-

It certainly is.

But are we trying to find the best policy, or the most effective one?

	Andrew.

    Look, I have no problem with honesty, but my real concern is being
    a bother to her at work.  Now I can't pull her into the corner and
    lay it out to her in 100 words or less (ok, a little sacastic, but).
    
    Should I wait for her to make some sort of move at this point, or
    is the ball still in my coart.

    
    
    	You could be waiting a long time...
    
    Jim

    How about sending her again flowers with your phone number? and
    keep your "friend" outside of all of these.  
    Good luck!
    
    Lily
    
    

    You will never get everyone to agree on one good method of handling
    this.  Women or men will never approach a situation the same way.
    
    I would of thought your note was humorous and would of taken that
    as a compliment.  But I happen to like that style.    She hasn't
    told you to leave her alone so thats a good sign.   I agree with
    .9 that sending flowers or a card one more time with your phone
    number in it may be a good way to put the ball in her court.  Just
    say something like "If you ever change your mind" then put your
    phone number there.   This way the next move is hers. 
    
    If she's interested she'll call.  If not she won't.  Plain and simple.
    This way you won't be bothering her all the time or wondering if
    you should do something else.   I would still go to the bar (no
    reason to stay away) and just enjoy yourself.  If she talks to you
    fine, see how it goes from there.  If she doesn't and starts to avoid 
    you, then you know shes not interested and you should back off.

    As for your friend, the less he knows about what your doing the
    better.   Seems like he doesn't have his priorities or your best
    interests on this mind. 
    
    Just be true to yourself and do what you feel comfortable with.
    
    
    

Roses?  Are you kidding us?  No!  You ain't one of those boys, are you?
The kind that ask for a date by sending roses???  I don't believe it!    


By all means, buy her some more roses, with your telephone number!

If that don't work...


Buy some more roses, and put an autographed photo with them!

If that don't work...


Buy some more roses, put a gold necklace with them!

She still ain't said, "Bug off."  So...


Send her some more roses, with a copy of your insurance policy!

Hey she ain't told you to go ____ yourself, so...


Send her some more roses, with a condom, (unused), hid in them!







AND THE ADVENTURE CONTINUES....

       
Seriously, just plant seeds, everywhere you go, and if something grows,
fine.  If not, fine.  Don't try so hard.  I think most guys "really"
know if a woman is interested or not.  She'll give signals.  I can't
believe you sent her roses and are now waiting, thinking the ball is
in her court.  Hell, sounds like she's playing tennis with another player.
      
I knew of about 4 or 5 guys that asked some women out by sending roses,
and it didn't work in any case.  Oh, I'm sure it has for some people,
maybe even you in the past, but for some, it's perceived as a "desperate"
act.  Some people do this as they "lack nerve" for asking someone out.
    
Keep moving before you take root....
    
Dwight        

    re: .0 (and subsequent)
    
    	   Flowers are old news, but they still work on some of the
    	old-fashioned sentimental types.  The "Dump Him" card was
    	a cute touch (and not particularly bold, by my standards)
    
    	   I have a different approach.  I'm a celibate for the most
    	part, and I don't try too hard to hide that fact.  I show
    	very little interest in relationships, and do not 'hit up'
    	on women... you might be surprised how many of them are
    	attracted to that, especially the more attractive women.
    
    	   I know, it sounds stupid, but the truth of the matter is
    	that many very attractive women are just plain tired of being
    	'picked up' or 'hit on'.  They eschew direct advances, and
    	are often looking for something different.  That's where I
    	come in.
    
    	   When they figure out that I'm a friendly guy who's not
    	going to put the moves on them, they start to relax around
    	me.  Eventually, I usually end up being 'like one of the
    	girls' (i.e. someone they can talk to openly about intimate
    	things).  Of course, this sort of approach is useless if
    	all you want is to jump her bones, because it usually takes
    	several weeks for this level of comfort to be achieved.
    
    	   However, I have also noticed that most of the women I
    	make friends with in this way do (eventually) start to
    	put the moves on me (or, if they are already involved,
    	try to set me up with one of their girlfriends in an 
    	attempt to break my celibacy... sometimes I let them).
    
    	   Warning:  If this is the approach you want to try you
    	should be aware that sincerity is a must.  You'll never
    	get anywhere with this approach if it's just a front.
    	You have to REALLY be interested in talking to them (more
    	interested in talking than sex).  They can spot a faker
    	a mile off, since the faker will not be able to talk about
    	anything except himself.  Show some real interest in what
    	they are concerned about and learn to draw them out of
    	their shells.
    
    	   Obviously, this approach is not for everyone, nor is it
    	universally accepted.  However, you might be surprised to
    	find out how much these women really have to say, and how
    	frustrated they are because there are so few men they can
    	say those things to (without getting into an untenable 
    	situation.)
    
    - Greg

    Thanks for .9, .10, .11, and .12 (?)......
    
    .9  I was glad to see a womans point of view, the second shot at
    flowers seemed like a good idea, until .11 ???
    
    .10 Agreed, there are advantages...
    
    .11 You make some good points, but I think you miss the point of
    the flowers, as I meant it.  I was put in a tough situation, and
    I thought/think it was tough for the girl as well, I wanted to turn
    the situation back around, and put a smile on her face (this was
    accomplished by the flowers and CARD).  But after reading your reply,
    I tend to think the second batch of flowers would be kind of whimpy...
    But the flowers approach (for a second time) would bypass the problem
    of BOTHERING the poor girl.  I guess maybe the question is......
    how important is it not to bother the girl, certainly not to the
    point of not asking her out.....  The question is what is the least
    obtrusive approach....
    
    .12 well, what can I say.....
    
    Oh, to all, my 'friend', come on, I work for digital, not ibm, just
    how dumb do you think I am.  He knows nothing from me.

    
    Thanks for the input and ideas, I should see her again Thursday.
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    	I think the flowers and card were a nice gesture.  Since she
    hasn't dumped a tray of drinks in your lap or told you to not bother
    her, why are you so worried about "bothering" her.  From what you
    have written she appears to be at least somewhat interested in you.
    When you see her next why not just try talking to her and asking
    her out?  Do you know any of her interests?  What she likes to do?
    How about skating on a Saturday afternoon?  Something that would
    be relaxed for both of you.  
    
    	You might be giving her some mixed signals yourself and she
    is still unsure what your "intentions" are at this point. As Greg
    pointed out most women are EXTREMELY tired of being just "hit on"!
    She may still be trying to decide if that's what you're all about.
    Ask her out.  And if she says no this time and you think she is
    someone you really want to get to know ask her again.  You need
    to be a bit more forward....but just a bit, okay.  Be a friend to
    her.  That's the best place I know of to start a relationship.
    
    	Don't know if this helps......hope so.  Good luck with her.
     
	Vicki

    reg: .15
    
    Yours is the first that states it's 'her move', and since I expected
    that there would be different points of view, I'd like to know why
    it's her move.  In light of .13 (I think), where she may be confused,
    I feel like I should maintain the initiative.....
    
    Any way, how about explaining your point of view a little.  Why
    is it her move, and what sort of move should I expect, a simple
    thank-you (which I've received), or the keys to her place (which
    I haven't)...  Patient, ya no problem, but I don't want to sit on 
    my hands.....  I'd like to be patient, but I don't think I should 
    be, ya know!  After all, I'm the GUY.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Mark

    Sorry, I refered to .13, it was .14, pointing out that the poor
    girl may be getting mixed signals from me??????
    

    I don't even think it would be her move.  So you gave her flowers
    that said "dump him...", now what?  What's she supposed to do? 
    She's already said thank you.  Short of asking you out, what is
    she going to do?  I don't think she'd come up to you and say, "oh
    thank you for the flowers, I think it would be nice if you and I
    could go out" because you haven't even asked her out!  She wouldn't
    be responding to an invitation because there wasn't one.  
    
    I think it's great that you sent her flowers--that's always a nice
    touch.  Although I don't think it's "wimpy" to send her flowers
    to ask her out, I do think it would be better if you asked her out
    in person as well as sending her the flowers with your phone number.
    That way the ball would definitely be in her court and you'd be
    able to see if she was interested or not.  After that, you'll be
    able to tell what's going on.  If she's not interested, then that's
    that.  If she is, then that's great!
    
    Just an opinion (smile)
    
    -Losa
                                       
    

    re .18:  I pretty much agree.
    
    I sure wouldn't think sending flowers a second time was whimpy!
    It would impress me, but then I love flowers, and I'm very romantic.
    
    Can you stop in and see her sometime when your friend isn't there,
    and she wouldn't be very busy?  Could you talk with her long enough
    to tell her you'd like to get to know her better (don't make this
    sound lecherous!), and that you'd like to talk to her when she isn't
    working?
    
    If someone sent me flowers and a card with their phone number, I'd
    call to thank them.  But even if she called you, it would still
    be your initiative to ask her out.  You might use the card to ask
    her out to dinner, in case she didn't feel comfortable calling you,
    so she could give you a response when she saw you next.
    
    As for the "dump him" my reaction would be that you have a good
    sense of humor, laugh a bit, feel good that you had enough interest
    to send the flowers and card, and enjoy the ego boost.  It would
    have *definitely* gotten my interest.  It's great to see a man show
    a woman he's interested, when so many are out playing games and
    being cool.
    
    One way or another, ask her out!  Good luck!
    
    Paula

    Thanks to all of you for your thoughts, especially the women, it
    was your opinions that I was really looking for.
    
    Let me take this opportunity to compliment women in general.  I'm
    beginning to think that if it wasn't for you women, and your skill
    at developing (or at least starting) relationships, the human race
    would end....  Let me explain:
    
    Thursday night, went up to 'the bar', I wasn't there 1 minute (oh,
    I planned to get there early, while she was still pseudo-hostess,
    and not busy, well work changed that) anyway, she walked by, asked
    how I was, noticed my hair cut, commented that I hadn't been there
    in a while, we talked about Thanksgiving, everything was wonderful.
    But after that, she pretty much ignored me, ok, that was her move,
    now it's up to me, fine, wonderful, no problem.  Decided that would
    have to wait for another day, and asked the bartender for my check.
    Well, after my check arrived, this waitress came up to the bar, well
    I could very well pay, while she was there, so I waited till she
    left, paid and left.
    
    Now this is where I blew it, as I walked out into the entrance way,
    bent on waiting till the next time I saw her to do something, there she
    was, at the pay phone, looking through the phone book, no one
    around......  Oh, maaannnnn, I just said good night and left....  I got
    in my car, and it was like someone hit me in the head, darn (or
    something like that), that was my chance.  What a dolt, just the
    thing I was looking for, delivered on a silver platter, and I missed
    it.
    
    Oh well, maybe tonight.  Just one comment about playing games and
    being cool....  She may think I'm playing games, or being cool,
    but I have to say, in our (guys) own defense, sometimes, maybe we're
    just stupid......
    
    
    Hope you've all enjoyed this disscussion, and I'll invite you all
    to our wedding!
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    Just one additional thought:  Since it seems so difficult to talk
    to her at the bar, would you want to give her a note or card
    briefly explaining that you don't want to bother her at work, but
    you'd be interested in taking her out (to dinner, or whatever) so
    you could talk together?  You could even hand it to her when she
    delivers your drink.
    
    Don't worry about asking her out; you've got everything
    to gain, and nothing to lose.  Good luck!
    
    Paula

    A card or a note, I don't know, maybe it's a man's ego, but that,
    and/or sending flowers asking for a date, is like sending a boy
    to do a man's job.  I sent flowers and a card the first time, served
    it's purpose, and that was to drive home that I was serious, but I want
    her to go out with me, because of 'me', not because I sent flowers.
    
    But I don't see it as 'nothing to lose and everything to gain',
    just a question of what's proper, when expressing genuine interest
    in someone who gets hit on (maybe as part of the job).  I've done
    all I can do, now she either says yes or no.  I think she'll say
    yes, but I want her to say yes to me, not a piece of paper.  If
    I have to, I'll have dinner at her station again.  Worst part now,
    is waiting till she works again, but I think she'll be worth it.
    
    How does that song go..... oh ya, 'Don't worry, be happy...'
    
    ya ya sure sure......
    
    bye
    
    Mark

>< Note 307.22 by NEWVAX::ZIMMERMAN "Mark Zimmermann" >
>                               -< going direct >-

>Worst part now,
>    is waiting 

True. So take the first opportunity to ask.
If she says "no", then at least the suspense will be over for you.
You may even feel relieved.
    
>    How does that song go..... oh ya, 'Don't worry, be happy...'
    
If she says "yes", and I hope she will, then we don't need to tell you to be
happy. If she says "no", then don't let it hit your self-respect; you've shown
yourself to care for her and her feelings even when it got difficult, and
being able to do that is a lot more important than the "success stories" a lot
of guys would be aiming for in your situation.

Don't worry, be yourself,

	Andrew.

    OK, you can all breathe now, for those of you holding your breath
    in the continuing saga......  But, take a deep breath, cause it's
    not quite over yet......
    
    Went to the bar Thursday, and she and I talked most of the evening,
    talked about everything from computers to dating (but not computer
    dating).  It was a very relaxed atmosphere, and as we discussed 
    dating (me and her specifically), she responded quite coyly, with a 
    'maybe', as she left to deliver her order.  ummmmmmm, ahhhhhhh, 
    now don't anybody yell, but I was AT the bar for 3 1/2 hours, and 
    had several drinks.  Now I don't think I was drunk (ya ya, I know, 
    that's what everybody says), but she made the comment that 'I was 
    trashed'.  So, I decided it was time to leave (after all, I'd just 
    been insulted, just kidding, come on, chill out).  But, before I 
    left, I ran into her (not literally), and before I left I again 
    stated that I thought we should date, and she said ok.  But I left 
    it at that.  
        
    Went up Friday, my 'friend' asked me to meet him up there, but I
    didn't have a chance to talk to my new friend, it's too busy on
    Friday's.
    
    Sat. went up to have dinner early, of course at her table, talked
    a bit, and gave her my number, with a brief explanation, mostly
    that it's too difficult to talk to her at work.
    
    I really wanted this topic to more discuss points of view in
    approaching/being approached in a situation like mine.  I was hoping
    someone could define where the line was.  To me, this wasn't so
    much a question of what might happen beween us, but the 'proper'
    approach, if there was one.  It seemed there was a fine line between 
    showing interest, and going too slow and causing confusion.

    I expect she'll call on Monday, the 12th, she's going to see someone
    at the Computer Learning Center (yuck) about their school.  I wonder
    if I could date someone who worked on IBM equipment!  Well, 'maybe'.
        
    thanks,
    
    Mark

    I dunno, I don't mean to sound negative but it sounds like she's
    stringing you along.  Most women who want to date you would be less
    vague (unless she's really into the coy way of doing things).
    
    Sounds like you're sinking a lot of money into dining/drinking out.
    Do you know her full name?  Roughly where she lives?  Directory
    assistance or a phone book can give you her number.... - this may
    be something you consider too forward, but if she doesn't call you,
    what happens next?
    
    -Jody
    

    I personally kind of doubt that there is a "proper" approach
    In thinking about the "fine line between showing interest, and 
    going too slow and causing confusion" it occurs to me that there 
    might be another fine line to think about, that between showing 
    interest and coming on too strong or trying to rush things.  And 
    it gets "worse". . .if a woman were to try to approach you, Mark, 
    you'd have an idea where those fine lines are for you, right?  But 
    would they be the same for her?  That is, you probably have a good 
    idea of what words/behavior would be too aggressive, just "right", 
    and too passive in terms of being approached.  But since those values 
    are highly subjective, how is anyone to know if they have a match 
    with another person?
    
    My "solution" has been to "give up".  By this I mean that I accept
    that it's practically impossible to guess what the "perfect" approach
    is for any given individual so I must resort to those most basic
    of "tactics": honesty and simplicity.  If I were interested in dating 
    a woman I'd say something like "You strike me as a very interesting 
    and attractive person; if you're free sometime, I'd like to get 
    together for drinks and/or dinner and get a little better acquainted."  
    
    In this particular instance (in her workplace where it's difficult 
    to talk), I guess I'd write the above and hand her the note, probably
    with the payment for the bill (if I handed to her just as I were 
    ordering and she preferred to decline, it might make it the rest of 
    dinner a bit awkward).  In any case, my guidline would be to make
    my feelings clearly known without pressuring her and make it easy 
    for her to either accept or decline gracefully.
    
    Steve

    If she commented on your being trashed, maybe, she wonders if the
    only time you have the nerve to ask her out is if your're drunk? Maybe
    she thinks that you won't remember asking when youre sober.  Remember
    the environment she works in.  Being hit on, is not an odd occurance
    when working in a bar.  Maybe if you asked her to breakfast after
    she gets off work, it would be a more comfortable atmosphere at
    the local Denny's.  You would then have a chance to talk and she
    would have a chance to see you away from the bar. 
    
    or.....  Maybe the bar has a rule regarding dating patrons.
    
    vivian
    

    Wow, alot of responses.......
    
    I'm going to 'try' to keep this reply short, but I'm affraid it's
    not going to be.....
    
    First, let me comment on .27, and the dance.  I'm currently in the
    D.C. area (though it's been less then a year).  A while back in
    Milwaukee (where I'm from), I was having a discussion with a good
    female friend of mine about human relations, and flirting.  I asked
    her how a guy is suppose to tell the difference between simple
    flirting, and genuine interest...  She said that that was the 'game'.
    Until that night, I really hated the 'game', as I thought of it,
    but hearing her definition, well, things made more sense.  That
    'game' is or at least can be fun.  Since I've been out here, I've
    had two relationships, the first was one where we flirted for months
    thru ALLIN1 (a customer), before we dated, the second, not at all.
     In fact, the second was a game I'd rather not play, where she now
    calls me, and either hangs up after 1 ring, or after I answer....
    
    But you're right, the dance, or 'game', should/can be enjoyed, if
    both parties are comfortable with the situation.  That's why .27
    really got me thinking.  I do think this girl is interested and
    I should just accept that, and enjoy the situation while I can.
    I say that, because it can be difficult to flirt, AFTER something
    develops (maybe that's the SPARK that so many people claim seems
    to be missing in old relationships).  I guess my problem was that
    I forgot to enjoy this part, and I guess the reason can be summed
    up by something my 'drinking friend' said to me Friday night.  He
    asked how things were going for me and the waitress, and I just
    simply said that I was working on that.  He replied, that I'd been
    saying that for 2 months (a little exageration, but the point was
    made none the less).  But again, in light of .27, so what, is the
    prize any better, if I finish earlier....  I was ready to lay back
    and wait at this point, she has my number, so if she doesn't call,
    then I should forget about it.  But now, well, maybe I've put too
    much preasure on this situation, and I should just enjoy it more.

    
    Just a personnal note here, accept it as part of the male ego showing
    through, or what I believe to be a true indication of my opinion.
    I've wanted this discussion to focus more on developing relationships
    then my 'personal life'.  I don't mind being the subject, but I've
    been more interested in points of view then advise.  I've really
    enjoyed this both because it gives me a chance to get things off
    my chest, as well as get points of view from those I don't know,
    and will probably never meet.
    
    I have to make a comment on .28, exactly...............  I remember
    everything we discussed, and hope to discuss it again with her,
    but ya, I've thought the same thing, she must assume I don't remember
    anything.....
    
    Mark

    Wow!  3 1/2 hours of drinking at a bar just to ask her out, and
    still you didn't, just suggested that you should date....  might
    be a record.  
    
    Maybe she stuck her finger on a thorn on one of those roses you
    gave her and is holding that against you.
    
    Don't you think it's time to 'plant new seeds' ???  Nothing's growing
    there, but moss.

    Re: .29
           
    
    > Just a personnal note here, accept it as part of the male ego showing
    > through, or what I believe to be a true indication of my opinion.
    > I've wanted this discussion to focus more on developing relationships
    > then my 'personal life'.  I don't mind being the subject, but I've
    > been more interested in points of view then advise.  I've really
    > enjoyed this both because it gives me a chance to get things off
    > my chest, as well as get points of view from those I don't know,
    > and will probably never meet.
    
    
    Mark, you might want to take a look at Notes 178, 180 and 181 in
    this Conference.
    
      Alan

>	you probably aren't alone in this "dance" you two are doing.
>    Many people who have had less-than-ideal pst interactions with
>    the opposite sex grow a bit shy about starting new relations.
>    And often people have pre-conceived ideas about the ideal mate.

Sounds familiar.  It happens to us shy folks who are looking for
partners of the same sex, too.   ;-) 


						--Ger

RE the game.

People don't have to play games.  I know lots of people who don't. Or,
maybe I should say that I know people who have a low tolerance for the
game.  The price that people might pay is fewer potential dates, but
I'm not sure that's true.  But there is something really neat about 
the directness of "I think that you are very attractive; would you be 
interested in coffee to get to know each other a little better?"  No 
bullsh*t.

Another thing is that I think that it is wise keep in touch with how 
much fun I am having.  If I am interested in a guy and the flirting 
feels fun to me, I don't mind playing the game a little bit.  But 
there comes a time when the person just isn't worth me hanging around 
(NO person is worth me being strung along).  So, after the flirting 
stops being fun, I tend to offer the guy my number, put the ball in 
his court, and not expect anything to come of it.  If he does end up 
calling, GREAT!  End of game.  If he doesn't end up calling, GREAT!  
End of game.


							--Ger

>    Is SEX that strong a drive in young people ???

I thought we were talking about dating?  I mean, isn't it possible to 
seek out a lot of dates with a lot of people (with lots of flirting 
going on) without ever having sex?

Seems to me that immediate sexual gratification is another topic, no?


						--YoungGer

Is it possible that she's acting so strangely and appearing to
play games because she works in a restaurant and you're a customer?

Let me explain: The summer after I graduated high school I worked
in a restaurant/bar (a Bennigan's, which is kind of like a TGI Friday's,
if that helps explain the type of place). I was asked out, propositioned,
had suggestive comments made, had compliments about my appearance made,
etc., etc. etc. on a daily basis, even from customers who had not
been drinking. Of course, when you go through this every day, you don't
take any of it seriously--you assume that if these same people met you
in some other way, they'd show no interest in you. Maybe that's
what she thinks. Even when the same person (a regular or frequent customer)
would ask you out several times, you'd kind of shrug it off, not really
answer, etc., because you assume that they're not serious.

Is it possible that this is her problem? 

PS. I had the same problem when I worked in an ice cream restaurant--
alcohol doesn't seem to be the cause here. I think it's just the way
people treat waitresses in general.

    Mark,
      This is January of 1989.  How is your romance going?  Did you
    ask her out yet?  It is so quiet lately, I wonder if you succeeded.
    When will we hear the wedding bells?
    
      Just out of curiosity, I had an EE instructor Dr. Zimmerman, he
    also the Dean of EE Department at UCCS in Colorado.  Your last name
    is Zimmerman! I wonder if you are related to him?
    
      Please tell us the outcome of your romance.
    

    Sorry, no relation to Dr. Zimmerman, may not matter, but the actual
    spelling to my name is Zimmermann (2 nn's). But, as you can see
    (NEWVAX::ZIMMERMAN), even digital gets it wrong.  My roots are in
    Wisconsin, and Germany.
    
    
    Ya, ya, tell me about it, Jan. 1989.  I've continued to frequent
    the BAR, but really backed off.  In fact, the first time I stopped
    in this year, I got a look from her, to me it said, 'What the hell
    are you doing here?", but it was just a look.  It's funny, this
    is the first time in a long time that I've check this note, but,
    last Thursday I stopped up, and a trusted friend told me that she
    would go out with me if I asked.  I've got her number, and 'WE' do
    plan to go out.  What was that comment a while back about 3 1/2
    hours, and being a record; looks more like 11 1/2 weeks to me.
    
    Wedding bells, man, at this rate, I'll be six feet under, long
    before I get that far.  Maybe this will be an example of 'slow and
    steady wins the prize'.  I've concluded that in fact there is no
    proper approach, just an easy way to waste alot of time, we should
    have been dating long ago.  But, now, the question is, does the
    end justify the means, and, with those SEEDS that I planted (???),
    do I have a cactus, or an oak?  Life is such fun, full of questions,
    or maybe it's full of SH*T, maybe that's why I need to keep planting
    seeds, the soil is so rich.
    
    Hey, this as been fun (sort of), now wish me luck.

    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    Honesty is going to be the best policy.  Start off on that note,
    and everything should work out fine.  Who knows, it might be a
    refreshing change for her;)!  As a woman, I certainly prefer a man
    who tells me the truth from the start.  It saves a lot of time and
    I have the advantage of feeling comfortable with him from the start.
    
    You sound like a very caring man.  I think she'll be pleasantly
    surprised.
    
    Good Luck!
    
    Barb