Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    I would not agree with your generalization.  That may be what most
    men and women will tell you, but I also feel that inside things
    are a lot more equal.
    
    		Steve

  RE: .1	Eagles and Lions seldom agree since we see things from
    		such different angles.  Steve Lionel speaks from his
    		own inner wisdom while bird-brains view from a distance.

  re: .0	we agree on the general hypothesis ...  now what to do?

    a suggestion:  suppose one were to discuss your general proposition
    and carry either orientation to it's extreme conclusion to help get
    things into better perspective ...  Would a female cease to *exist*
    on an island with nobody and hence no relationships?  And is a man
    carried to perfection a robot totally programmed to produce widgets?
	Maybe your SO can see the value in becoming a bit more concerned
    with relationships until his "natural" career orientation gets back
    to being able to support that facet of his orientation.  Much as
    a working mom may tend to learn that "neglected" children find their
    own forms of amusement and often mature into self-sufficient adults.
    
    ~--e--~  Eagles_Try_2_Help_Rather_Than_Argue_Against_Your_Hypothesis
    Any suggestions on how to deal with a male SO who is
    suffering from job-related low self-esteem?
    
    Thanks for all opinions/suggestions.
    
    Helaine

    (Gee, Steve, did you change your name to Helaine?)
    
    I've been in this situation, where a former SO had a very low
    work-related self esteem.  Entirely unjustified, I will add.  But
    it seemed the more supportive I was, the more she denied it and
    turned her anger against me.  (It was this experience that caused me
    to suggest that there are not innate male-female differences here.
    I feel that it is pointless to approach the problem from that
    perspective.)
    
    It seemed that the best approach would be to provide a shoulder
    to "cry on" (or "lean on", take your pick).  DO NOT try to rationalize
    away his feelings - that will only make it worse (I know!)  It is
    all to easy to set yourself up as "the enemy", and your relationship
    will be headed down the drain if you do.
    
    This is hard - I was not successful when it happened to me.  Eventually
    she picked herself up and is doing much better.  That's about the only
    way I think it can work - self-esteem has to come from inside.
    Encourage, yes.  But don't nag.  It's a razor-sharp line you have
    to walk.
    
    
    					Steve

    I am female [big surprise! :) ] and I have often suffered from
    low-esteem related to my work.  The major aspect people have tried
    with me is to show me that indeed I am great at my work so I shouldn't
    feel bad about it.  That didn't work; it only made me feel more
    like a fraud.
    
    What worked on me was telling my boss I needed regular strokes for
    good performance so please give them to me, and being shown by my
    loved ones that I am good in other realms, that work is not the
    only thing that can make me feel good or bad about myself.
    
    Lee

    When I hired on at DEC, my boss *warned/told* me that he seldom,
    if ever gave out postitive strokes.  Many years ago, while at another
    employer, I, too suffered from low self-esteem (work related) and
    felt *very* insecure.  Luckily, the years matured me, I learned
    that I am *good* at what I do, and while *strokes* are nice and
    are appreciated, they are no longer critical to my self-esteem.
    But, because the memory of *my* insecure times is so vivid, I try
    to *give* strokes whenever I can.  Positive feedback from boss/sup-
    ervisor/peers can work positive wonders IF THEY ARE SINCERE.  Fake,
    insincere strokes are just flattery...shallow and largely meaningless.
    	All this to say, the friend (.0) needing help will most assuredly
    find that as time passes, his self-esteem will improve.  
    
    I don't envy him this passage of time
    
    Tony

        
    	Self esteem *has* to come from within. It's so difficult, because
    we *always* judge ourselves the hardest! It's quite possible that
    your friend is doing just fine at work; *only he* doesnt think so...
    A friend of mine once told me (discussing "nothing to do" at work)
    that he had a job at a research firm where he "had nothing to do"
    for 4 YEARS! He said they kept him around "because he was like a
    ball of string" - handy to have, when needed! Can you imagine being
    told that? His strategy for dealing with that situation was entirely
    self motivated - he said he always appeared to be busy anyway! Hence,
    his self esteem about his *work* also came from within - he gave
    himself his own "pats on the back" for what he accomplished that
    day. 
    
    	Joe Jas

    ... perhaps it just isn't constructive to define approaches to self
    image as "male" or "female" ...  But if anyone tends to be oriented
    toward EITHER work OR relationships ...  Why not accept the "cycles"
    that occur as periods to focus on the other aspect.  WORK can give
    strength during times when relationships are falling apart because
    it is always there to be done ... as many hours per week as seems
    worth doing.  If one job doesn't satisfy ... get a second job that
    allows other facets of personality to evolve.  Work inside, work
    outside, work with people or just with things ...
    
    ~--e--~  Eagles_Find_Work_Always_Ends_Eventually_And_After-Work
             SHOULD_Be_About_Relationships...Unless_You_Own_a_House...8^)

    eagle,sometimes you say the right things at the right times :-)
    
    
    
    kelly

    I disagree with the proposition stated in .0. Mainly because, as
    others have said, self-esteem comes from within.
    So, you can't say that a man gets it from the outside, and
    a woman from the inside. If a man "gets" self-esteeem from the outside,
    he isn't really getting self-esteem - he is getting strokes - thee
    is a big difference.
    
    A person with a high level of self-esteem will take a few hits when
    the job situation gets a little rough. But then that person will,
    as has been said before, know that they are not worthless; know
    that they are intrinsically worthwhile (i.e. just because they exist).
    
     To .0, I would say that all the examples in the world, all the
    arguing you can do, will not make a difference. Encourage him, support
    him, but remember - any real self-esteem must be gathered by himself.
    Pretend that there are little messages playing in his head, over
    and over. These messages are:
    
    You are worthless.
    
    You always were worthless.
    
    You always will be worthless.
    
    And you can never do enough to change that.
    
    
     It's a tough place to be, but a place that can be left behind.
    
    			Gregg
p.s. One of the best things you can do, is to let him know that he is
    acceptable, JUST THE WAY HE IS, RIGHT NOW, TODAY, unconditionally.

    Although I personally don't agree with the statement (in .0),
    I'd be a little surprised if it wasn't currently a majority
    view on the planet.  But, as far as I'm concerned, the majority
    view (or mine, for that matter) don't matter a whole lot to your
    SO.  What matters is how *he* feels and sees things and while
    I'm hardly an expert in this area, a couple of thoughts do come
    to mind.
    
    One is that the advice to be accepting and patient sounds good
    to my ears.  In times of similar troubles, I found that kind of
    support comforting.  The other thought is that, without wishing
    to sound an unreasonable alarm, sometimes these kinds of feelings
    can be indicative of other things.  A couple of possibilities are
    "mid-life crisis" and depression.  Please understand that I'm 
    specifically not trying to make any kind of diagnosis or create
    undue concern.  I simply want to point out that such feelings are
    often seen as parts of other conditions.  And I'd also quickly
    say that both of those conditions and others *are* treatable.  
    
    A couple of yardsticks for these situations are duration and 
    intensity; very intense and/or prolonged bad feelings are signals
    worth paying attention to and one possible alternative would be
    to explore some counselling/therapy.  Whatever the case, I have
    a notion that the accepting attitude of "I care for you and I'm
    here for you; together we'll get through this" is one that will
    stand you in good stead.
    
    Steve
    	

    > Any suggestions on how to deal with a male SO who is
    > suffering from job-related low self-esteem?
    
    Often you can find me ranting and raving about something that has
    nothing to do with what I am really worried about.  Might this be
    the case here?
    
    Perhaps he is like many men who feel valuable as a love-object
    because they know they are valuable as a work-object?  Perhaps
    he thinks you will stop loving him if he is no longer a great success?
    
    If this is the case the answer of "To bad work is not going well
    for you.  Lucky for you I don't love you because you are a success
    at work!" would be what he really wants to hear.

    I'd like to thank you all for all your interesting and
    thought-provoking responses.  They've really helped me to
    put things in perspective.
    
    I agree that the *source* of one's self esteem has to come
    from within.  However, I still feel that self esteem is
    *influenced* by either internal or external factors.
    
    The comment that really hit home the most was to *accept
    my so for the way he is now - unconditionally*.  I think
    things had piled up all at once, ie. job, financial,
    life goals, etc. and he wasn't feeling that acceptance
    and support from me unconditionally on top of everything
    else.
    
    Time has a way of working things out (And This Too Shall Pass).
    Thanks once again to all of you for your words of support,
    advice and encouragement.
    
    Helaine