Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    Books are always good, nonthreatening, not too personal gifts for
    someone you just met -- and yet you know enough about the person
    already to pick out a book they would especially like.

    RE; .1 a book like the Hite report maybe??? Would make for a LOT
    	of conversation...................................:-)

    I think I'd take it easy on gifts that basically say "you have horrible
    taste".  It implies that you don't value your SO's judgement.  Perhaps
    once you've become closer you can do things like this and it won't be
    taken amiss, but it seems foolish to risk causing resentment so early
    in a relationship.
    
    My general advice for gifts is to be creative - my favorite gifts to
    receive from an SO have been "cute" things that show affection - 
    a pair of pliers or a record doesn't do that to me.
    
    				Steve

    
    re:  .4  "cute" things that show affection...
    		
    	Hmmm.  I'd be curious to hear some examples. 
    
    	I read an interesting article yesterday on the subject of
    	gift-giving and how some people (not necessarily SO's or
    	just boyfriends/girlfriends) tend to show "dislike" when
    	given a gift they don't care for or didn't particularly want!
    	I wonder how you can avoid this...or if it is just the "people"
    	who do this who are being distasteful!  I don't know that I
    	could ever tell someone that I disliked a gift I was given!
    
    	I don't really have any suggestions...but have made my fairly
    	new SO a crocheted afghan in his favorite colors and will let
    	ya'll know after Christmas how it was received...or maybe 
    	before as he is going out of town for Christmas...means he gets
    	his present early!  :^) 
    
    	Could my afghan present be considered something "cute" that
    	shows affection, Steve?  (I love that phrase!)  I decided on
    	the afghan as I wanted to do something special for him and 	
    	wanted it to be something I had made rather than bought! 
    
    	Myra 

    Aw, c'mon Gale, you know me better than that...
    
    I agree that anyone who complains about a gift is slime.
    
    And Re .5 - Anything you make yourself comes from the heart.  Anyone
    can walk into a store and buy a whatever, but something you make
    is unique and deeply meaningful.  At least that's how I see it.
    
    Some "cute" things I've received in the past that really tickled my
    heart:
    	- A tiny wind-up robot that does handstands
    	- A stuffed cat (from an SO that didn't like real cats)
    	- One of those clear plastic wands with the water and shiny
    	  glitter moons and stars floating in it
    
    My philosophy is that you want to give something that will make the
    recipient think of you each time he or she sees it.  If it's something
    decorative or unusual, rather than utilitarian, you have a better
    chance of having this happen.  Plants are good bets here too - pick
    something hard to kill for those of us with black thumbs.  The nice
    thing about a plant is that you can think of your love growing along
    with the plant.  (The bad thing is that if you DO manage to kill the
    plant, what does that say about your relationship? :-))
    
    				Steve

    By the way, a favorite record, book, artwork, etc. is a fine gift,
    but in my mind it ought to accompany something personal.  The best
    "personal" items are very inexpensive.  I'll read the book, listen
    to the record, etc., but it probably won't remind me of you.  Seeing
    the adorable stuffed animal that I keep near my bed will.
    
    					Steve

    
    
    	Geez, I dunno.. Anything with the Craftsman name on it is a
    good gift for me.. You can NEVER have enough pliers. :-)  CD's
    would be nice.. Might gimme the will to save the money up for a
    player. A record is fine too.. (A new cartridge for the turntable
    would be good too.. :-))
    
    	Bottom line is that it isn't the gift that counts. (So get me
    a scarf.. I LOVE scarfs.. hee hee)
    
    							mike

    re: .5
    
    	How did you get the Afghan to sit still long enough for you to
    	crochet it ?? :-)

    	I always like useful rather than decorative things - as I do
    	a lot of travelling, things that I can take with me when I go
    	away.
    
    	I usually buy a mixture of little things rather than one big
    	present - they're more fun to open and you hedge your bets....
    	in my case, I work on the theory that she's got to like or
    	have wanted one of them !!
    
    Steve

    
    re: couple of tie replies...
    
    Nice thought....   but probably 90% of the guys out there are simalar
    to me... . 20 dozen ties on the tie rack and I wear them about twice
    a year. If you have one of the 10%.. great!
    
    Just a think_about, instead of a tie... how about coordinating sox..
    may not wear them this year - but will sometime - I'll wear my new
    ones, right after I wear out the other 26 pair!
    

    Generally speaking I've found that men have much better taste
    in ties then women (or children). I have 20 some ties (and where
    a tie ~10 times a year). The ones that are *never* warn were all
    gifts from women. My favorite tie was a gift from a man.
    
    My favorite gifts are those that show some imagination. My wife
    has gotten me several gifts I'd never have thought of getting
    for myself that I've loved. However, she knows me pretty well by
    now. I wouldn't try going so far outside the obvious for someone
    you're 'new' with. You should look around and see what kinds of
    things a person likes. Do they collect anything? Do they have any
    special interests? Give a basketball friends tickets to the Celtics
    and he'll be yours for life. :-) 
    
    Hand made things are a personal favorite of mine. (Even if they
    don't fit or the colour is 'wrong' the thought and effort overwhelms
    me). 
    
    				Alfred

Well, Gale, I think you should know that my SO and I both appreciate the
ties you bought him :-)  You more than doubled his collection (of two).

He's one of those guys who only wears a tie once or twice a year, too.  So
we're set for a year and a half with no repetition.

Now if we can only buy him a suit while he's not looking... :-)

Jill, who agrees with the idea of buying lots of different things...

    best gift ever received from a new SO: a tiny pewter otter (we had
    taken a survey and one question asked was what kind of animal would
    we most like to be.  Both of us said otters cause they just play
    in the sun, eat and swim)
    
    Most well-received gift given to a new SO: a tie between a little
    silver anklet ($6) and 3 pairs of the loudest-patterned boxer shorts
    I could find.
    
    Lee

    
    re:  .5
    
    	Update...as mentioned in .5 I had to give my SO his 	
    present early as he's going to be out of town for the holidays.
    
    	My daughters convinced him to open it on Friday night
    as that was about the only time before he leaves that all 
    of us would be together! 
    
    	He loved the afghan!  Was amazed that I had taken on what
    he considered to be such a major "labor of love".....and couldn't
    get over how pretty it was!  I was very pleased!  And so glad that
    he liked it!  
    
    	Myra 
    

    re.17
    I read your note in another conference concerning this afghan
    you made (FREINDS? maybe?)
    
    I'm really glad it was such a success for you and I bet you
    have a great feeling inside as a result.  All that work had
    paid off!
    
                                   Merry Christmas
    
                                           cj
    

    	Re: .0
    
	Don't waste your money buying a woman a present because they don't
	like anything unless they buy it themselves, and only then if they
	think they've gotten a bargain.  Women basically just love to shop.
	If you buy them something they'll only take it back and get a
    	refund so they'll have more bucks to shop with.

	On their birthday or special occasion I usually just give them about
	50 bucks or so and tell 'em to go down and pick me up a shirt or
	something.  They love it!  If it's a real big deal like Christmas
    	or I just want to impress them, I go all out and offer to drive
    	them to the mall.  Of course hanging around waiting for them can be
    	a real buttache, so try to find one that has a good bar or an adult
    	bookstore nearby.  


	Jake            

    re .19
    HORSEFEATHERS! Maybe some women but don't assume that you are
    describing all of us! humph!
    
    Bonnie
    
    who would much rather a gift than money and hates to shop

RE: .19

	Hey, I did that with my Mom this year! We went down to the
	store and I told her it was going on the charge.. She LOVES
	to shop and was in her glory..

							mike

    .19
    
    How cold your note sounds!  how many occasions do your "women"
    stick around for?  There's nothing like receiving a gift from
    someone.  I look at it and see what he thinks of me.  What he
    thought of me when he looked at it and said "I know this is
    something she'd like, and I want her to have it."
    
    Do you know these "women" well enough to make this decision?
    Don't you get a good feeling when you present something to 
    someone you *know* and love?
    
    I could understand maybe offering to go somewhere with someone
    to pick something out and then buy it for her.  Share in her
    decision, show some interest!  I would be so hurt if someone
    just gave me money and said,"Have a ball".
    
                                        cj
    

       re .19/.20/.22:
       
       My goodness.  Can't men have a safe place to discuss Things
       That Are Important without being viciously attacked by those
       of the alternative gender?
       
       --Mr Topaz

    re.23
    no.

    Some folks ain't got no sensa' humor!

    re.26 
    
    Oh my sense of humor must be on vacation.  I forgot how funny it
    is when you make women seem greedy, and self-centered, with no
    sense of sentiment, and with nothing more on their minds but being
    able to go shopping.  Ha Ha! :-}

    To ***SOME*** the truth hurts!

    It's funny, I started this whole discussion on such a light note,
    and now find myself defending my sentimentality.  Well, anyways...
    
    .25
    Expecting too much of men...I look at this and can only answer from
    a personnel viewpoint, and can definitely say I NEVER expect much
    of anything from men (newly developed attitude).  I do love examples
    of how thoughtful men can be though.  I love the surprise gifts
    I see my father come up with for my mother, or my brother-in-laws
    for my sisters.  These were lovingly thought through and chosen.
    I guess maybe Christmas is pretty busy and a hard time to expend
    much thought to any one person that you may love, but in doing so,
    don't you take some of the comercialization back out of Christmas?
    
    I did recieve a gift from a "friend" who was with me when I was
    doing some shopping for tree decorations in a shop in Portsmouth.
    I had seen a beautiful fan on the wall (no need to go into elaborate
    description, suffice to say I fell in love with the thing!), but
    would not consider buying it for myself so close to Christmas.
    Needless to say, he went back another day and bought it for me,
    which meant driving from Worcester to Portsmouth and  back again.
    I was thrilled, and did NOT expect this.
    
    And you know, he doesn't consider *any* time spent with me as
    being a *buttache* (re.19).  Even browsing through Christmas shops
    to find ornaments for my tree (which could exasperate a saint! I
    have to look at everything, and change my mind a thousand times,
    I'm so wishy-washy :-) ) 
    
                                           cj
    

    
    	Interesting dialogues after I received my gift from my
    sort-of new SO....he got me a beautiful business card case 
    with my initials....lovely!  We had not talked about my 
    needing one...but he had figured from a conversation that
    we had that it might be a good gift.  He felt bad when he 
    gave it to me cause it didn't "compare" in his mind with 
    what I had given him...I explained my feelings that gifts
    do not have to be "equal" altho the two gifts were not far
    off in price...mine to him had just taken some of my personal
    time to make. 
    
    	When I showed my dad the card case Larry had given me, he
    said "Now why can't I ever think of good gifts like that??" 
    So what Larry had thought was a "less-than-perfect" gift my
    dad thought was really "unique".  
    
    	I agree with "Eagle"... (re:  .30)  I am just glad to be
    remembered....the old adage "It's the thought that counts" seems
    most appropriate here! 
    
    		Myra 

    
    Steve...
    
    >How does one compare gifts (aside from obviously PRICE) ???
    
    	I honestly don't know...more important, to me, is WHY???
    
    	I don't understand people's thinking that whatever I give
    you has to equal in price what you give me.  That (for me) places
    too much restriction on the gift giving.  Even my mother felt bad
    this year that she couldn't spend as much on me as I did for her
    gift.  I tried to explain that it doesn't matter...but didn't get
    very far.  Where does this thinking come from and am I the only
    one who feels this way??  
    
    	Hugs...
    
    		Myra 
    

    
    re: .19
    
>    HYDRA::LYMAN "Village Idiot"     18 lines  23-DEC-1987 14:56

    
>	Don't waste your money buying a woman a present because they don't
>	like anything unless they buy it themselves, and only then if they
>	think they've gotten a bargain. 

	   Not quite true. The women *I* know appreciate what I get them,
	or they are being considerate in not showing their dis-approval.
	After all, it's not the gift that counts, it's the effort that
	you put in purchasing the gift. What effort does it take to stuff
	a few bucks in a card???


>	If you buy them something they'll only take it back and get a
>   	refund so they'll have more bucks to shop with.

	   If this was a re-occuring situation, I certainly wouldn't even
	bother with a card. I find this to be an insult. Of course, this is
	only *my* view and I can't speak for all the other men in this 
	conferance, but it is one MAN's view. ( I really hope that you 
	were just kidding, but I didn't see a smiley face attached.)

	Dan

                                

    re .33
    
    I have never felt that the, exact, cost of a gift was important.
    Price RANGE has been a consideration though. (Large family) "I'm
    spending 10$ on each child, but the parents just get a card and
    a snack tray". The 10$ figure doesn't mean that one gift won't
    cost 8.99 and another 11.99. They're in the same range to me.
    Anyone that complains because X's gift cost more than theirs, can
    almost guarantee themselves something less the next time. Who
    wants to buy gifts for someone that doesn't appreciate them?
    
    Re .34
    I think its called 'playing the devils advocate'. Gets more
    attention that way than adding 8-), ~/~ or ;-}.
    
    Bob Mc

re.34
    ...its the effort you put into purchasing the gift. What effort
    does its take to put a few bucks in a card.
    
    Thank you, Dan.  I tried to state pretty much the same thing
    a few notes back, but you have a better way with words.  Knew
    I liked your style! :-)  
    
                                       cj
    

    I must admit that I have been disappointed, in a childish sort of
    way, although I try hard not to show it, if I receive a gift that
    I have actually hinted at wanting but the item is not exactly the
    one I had my mind set on. You know you see some item that really
    hits the spot, and you hint that you wouldn't mind having that type
    of thing. But then you get one that isn't quite the same. But the
    thought and feeling is certainly there.
    
    What would you do? Keep the one bought for you so as not to hurt
    the person's feelings or suggest that the gift is great but doesn't
    quite 'fit' right and exchange it. 

    /Les

    My 'new' SO is Mennotes and Personal mail, if you know what
    I mean. 
                                                      learning,
                                                               Russ

    
    Re: .36
    	> What effort does its take to put a few bucks in a card.

    	Who said anything about a card?
    
    
    You ask any woman what they like best about Christmas and 9 out of 10
    will say "exchanging gifts".  Not with each other mind you, but with the
    store they came from.  The proof of this is that just before Christmas
    the stores are packed with about 60% woman and 40% men.  For the
    next month after Christmas the stores are just as packed but with
    99% women.  If you buy them a gift, sure they'll have fun exchanging
    it, but at the same time they'll feel guilty about it and have to spend
    the rest of the romance (usually about 3 weeks) making up excuses
    why they aren't wearing those skin tight leather hot pants you bought
    them.  So what I do is provide them with guilt free ecstasy; 30
    bucks cash and a ride to the mall.  What the hells so wrong with that???
    I mean already this Christmas I've been shown 10 different lovely
    gifts that were purchased with that same 30 dollars and I'm sure there'll
    be another when I get home tonight, Lechmere is having a "White sale".
    
    
    Jake
        

    
    I don't know how other women feel, but I would be very hurt if Rich
    just handed me some money.  To me it would seem like he didn't care
    enough for me to take the time to find/make a gift for me.
    
    I received some wonderful Christmas gifts from him, but the best
    gift was the fact that he loves me enough to have taken the time to
    try and give me gifts that he though I would enjoy.  
    
    It doesn't matter whether the gift is expensive/cheap, fancy/plain,
    homemade/store bought, etc... Just knowing that Rich spent time trying 
    to please me is wonderful.
                    
    Rich baked cookies for my Mom for her Birthday - she loved it! 
    - not because of the what he gave her, but because he spent his
    time doing something for her.
    
    
    I'm terrible at expressing myself in words... Hope y'all were able to 
    understand. (-:
                   
    

    
    I thought you expressed it well.  Its called giving of one's self.
    As far as this just giving money, to me at least, is like leaving
    money on the nightstand.

    Gee Jake, you mean you get upset when your "SO" decides that the
    lawnmower you bought her doesn't have enough horsepower and exchanges
    it on a dozen roses? Maybe you're mad because the cute young thing
    that started work last week decided that she didn't really need
    the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Calendar you gave her?
    
    Besides what kind of weirdo are you anyway, checking out the relative
    proportions of sexes in stores? I'd think you'd be ecstatic, with 99%
    of the people in the store being women, you ought to have a better
    chance of "scoring".
    
    Seriously though, you sound pretty bitter. What's the problem?
    
    	-- Charles

    re .39, .42   My Mother exchanges most gifts my Father gives her
                each Christmas. Last 30 years. He seemed rather defeat-
                ist about it when we shopped for her recently.
                  A topic could be created on the phenomenon. Perhaps
                some 'exchangers' could 'present' their views. Like
                how come your SO doesn't know you (likes,etc) BY NOW.
    
                                                          Russ

    I dont know about other women who read this notes file, but I
    *really* dont care how much you spend on a present....I was 
    given a present his year by someone, and the fact that he took
    the time and thought about what he thought I would like meant 
    so much to me.  It was really nice. 
    
    Kim

    
    
    Kim,
    
       You hit the nail on the head, he took the time, made the effort,
    tried to understand what was important to you, in short, he was
    considerate. It really didn't matter what it was or what it cost.
    

    One of the nicest presents I received this year was a mail
    message from a dear friend telling me I was 'loved and ap-
    preciated'.  A gift from the heart.  That's the most special
    kind!