Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    
    	1. Could be they didn't percieve the relationship was
    	   going well at all. This could be due to a problem
    	   of communication, like you may have not heard the others
    	   complaints and only looked from your view point.
    
    	2. Plain old human nature. Leave it to us humans to screw
    	   things up just when they are going good.

    How do you get someone to communicate with you,  and is there trust
    after this?

    
    
    	Sounds more like you need counselling and not a bunch of guys/girls
    	telling you war stories..
    
    	Just for the record, if you are asking yourself questions like
    	in .2 then you really should re-examine alot of things.. 
    
    	Go see your EAP person. They are there to help. (and have)
    
    							mike

    Sorry to bother you my friends, thought I would get some general
    information on the subject.......  Besides tell me some war stories,
    maybe life would be more realistic for some of us romantisists out
    here.....  You know we do exist.

re:.0

	Well, in this situation it strikes me that the relationship must 
have only been serious on one-side..... yours.... and the other person 
must not have viewed it as going all that well, otherwise they might not 
have "strayed".

Ken

    Very well put. Even if he is "serious" about you (I have doubts)
    he may have a different perception of what that means. Not everyone
    plays by the same rules. You should seek support (eap is outstanding)
    to help YOU...see things more clearly.
    
    Good luck
    
    Bob

    I think I understand the question.  Having asked the
    same question myself.  And forgive me please if I
    generalize:
    
    It seems that men (insert some/many; often/usually/occa-
    sionally; might/may   where appropriate)  can be in a
    serious relationship-dating, married, living together-
    and be committed to the woman, yet have one night stands,
    flings, affairs, and yet still profess to love the woman,
    not want to lose her, not want to end the relationship...
    
    This is incomprehensible to me.  Men seem to be able to
    separate their physical selves, or perhaps their egos,
    from their emotional selves...I just don't understand
    WHY a man would be attracted to another woman, WHY a man
    would have what is termed a 'purely physical' relationship
    when he has a perfectly satisfactory emotional relation-
    ship ongoing.   It seems that some men just need their
    egos stroked.  That no relationship, no woman, can meet
    that need...that some men just need the conquest, the
    thrill, the ego building (although how much can it build
    one's ego to know that a woman chose to have casual sex
    and would probably have casual sex with just anyone?)
    
    You didn't ask for advice.  From your base note, including
    your 'signature', I think I can empathize with you....I
    think I know how you feel and what you are going thru.
    If advice is wanted, I'll be happy to followup.  Or send
    me mail if you would prefer.
    
                           Deb
    
    P.S.  Glad you asked the question.  As I said, I've been
          wondering myself for the longest time.
    
    
    sex with just about anyone had sex with 

    
    	Let's see if I can add some ridiculous reasons -
    
    1. Fear. "Is this all there is?...that may be my "last
    chance"...forever is a  long time"
    
    2. Defiance. "I'm supposed to behave per social specification"
                     
    3. Ego. "Hey, I'm so cool, watch me pull the wool over their eyes"
            "I can get away with it - risking everything"
    
    4. Satisfaction. "I need _______" (fill in blank with what you couldnt
    imagine...or havent yet)
    
    5. Adventure. "Life's so dull and routine...think I'll go romancing
    the stone"
    
    6. Revenge. "So I cant have my Behemouth Mark III's in the living
    room, eh? I'll fix ya -"                   
    
    	
    	As you can see, most of these lousy reasons are really lousy
    handling of basic human emotions. I'm sure more could be added.
                                                                   

    
    	RE: .7
    
    	 Hate to burst your bubble Deb, but men aren't the only
    	ones to have sexual encounters outside of their relationships.
    	I've been down that road myself, and it was after 12 1/2 years.
    	When asked, her only comment "had to find out what it was like
    	to be with someone else". Well, she found out, and then had
    	to stick with the other "someone" elses.... :^)
    

    Oh, George, I didn't mean to imply that men are the only
    ones who cheat.  I was simply looking at the situation
    from a woman's point of view, with the woman being the
    "injured party".  Also, I think men fool around for dif-
    ferent reasons.  Either way, I have no respect for the
    deceitful partner, or for a 'third party' who would knowingly
    bring pain into the life of an innocent person.
    
    

    Re .7, I agree that it seems that many/some men seem to "want their
    cake and eat it too".  
    
    I want to make one comment on something you said.  You said that
    some men may need the constant reassurance of conquest.  I agree
    that that does seem to be the case with some men.  However, you
    go on to say that how casual sex can provide this, you don't
    understand.  You make the comment that if the "other woman" would
    have casual sex with them, she probably would with anybody.  This
    is a common assumption that really upsets me.  Just because a woman
    has sex with one man who doesn't happen to really love her back,
    doesn't mean that she would have casual sex with just anybody. 
    It could just mean that she loved him or at least was liked him
    a lot and he was just having casual sex.  There is such a thing
    as one sided love and/or attraction.  I think men sometimes take
    advantage of women who really care for them just to have a little
    extra sex.  Maybe some women do this too, but I think more women
    are out for serious relationships than just having a lot of casual
    sex.  Men do seem to find more enjoyment in casual sex than women
    do.
    
    Surveys (I don't remember where or who - just remember reading it
    and thinking I agreed) show that men who cheat are usually just
    looking for a piece on the side and don't really want to end the
    marriage/relationship, but that women who cheat are usually
    dissillusioned with the present relationship and are really out
    there looking for a new serious relationship.
    
    It seems to me that men find it easier to totally separate sex and
    love.  I think that some men can meet a woman and want to have sex
    with her, and to them it has nothing to do with the fact that they
    love someone else.  It's a different thing - like a sport or something
    they enjoy for a hobby.  I've met a couple of women like this but
    not as many as I have men.  Most women want the people they have
    sex with to care about them.  Men usually hope they won't.
    
    It does to hurt to think of somebody you love having sex with somebody
    else, and I don't know what anybody can do about that, except not
    think about it.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .10 (I think)
    
    "No respect for the third party"
    
    The third party (calling her Woman2) is not responsible for the
    happiness of the other couple (Man1 and Woman1).  If Man1 wants
    to go mess around, endangering his relationship with Woman1, that's
    his business, not Woman2's.  It is after all HIS marital status,
    not Woman2's.
    
    As far as trust is concerned... that depends.  If your SO has an
    extramarital affair without telling, yes that is a breach of trust.
    But if your SO has an affair and tells you about it as soon as
    possible, is THAT a breach of trust?  Can you honestly say that
    you would rather know about the affair than be left in the dark?
    I would, but the choice is not that easy.
    
    Good Luck--                    Lee

    Lorna, when I used the term "casual sex", I meant casual
    for both parties.  Therefore, a woman who would have an
    overnight fling with one man and never see him again, 
    would be participating in "casual sex" and men (some)
    consider this an ego boost and frankly I think it's quite
    the opposite  ie insulting.  Now, a woman engaged in inti-
    mate relations with a man she loves or cares for, regard-
    less of HIS feelings, is not having "casual sex".  
    
    I agree very much with the rest of what you said.  Men and
    women seem to 'use' physical intimacy for different reasons.
    I especially agree with your comment about men cheating for
    physical or ego satisfaction and women cheating because they
    are dissatisfied with their current relationship.
    
                         Deb
    
    

    Lee, I was not implying that Woman2 was responsible
    for the happiness of Woman1 and Man1.  I WAS stating
    that I have no respect for any person who would de-
    liberately bring pain into the life of another person.
    Man1 can certainly find Woman* to 'cheat' with, but I
    still maintain that I have no respect for the woman
    who would knowingly participate.  I take the golden
    rule to heart...
    
    

    Many people also cheat because their spouse has "let themselves
    go". A lot of people, once married, stop trying to maintain their
    physical attractiveness. 

    RE: .11

>   It does to hurt to think of somebody you love having sex with somebody
>   else, and I don't know what anybody can do about that, except not
>   think about it.
    
    What one can do is go to a therapist to begin working through those
feelings of disappointment, anger, frustration and whatever else she/he
may be feeling. If not a therapist, anyone who will listen sincerely and
make an effort to help the individual. Start with EAP.. 
					
    I don't think all men cheat, and I don't think all women cheat. I think 
the reasons for cheating are as varied as the numbers and the individuals. 

						-Thomas 

    Just to introduce a (possibly) different viewpoint.
    
    The fact that a spouse is having sex with someone other than their
    spouse is not automatically evil.
    
    From this obviously outrageous statement, you can deduce that I
    believe it is possible to have an open marriage, and furthermore
    that love does not equal possesion. I grant that not everyone is
    so gifted, but it *is* possible to love more than one person.
    
    On the other hand, if both partners have agreed "forsaking all others"
    then "playing around" is bad. Have we agreed to limit the discussion
    to "cheating", that is, sex outside of an *exclusive* relationship
    while acknowledging that not all relationships are exclusive?
    
    If so, I'll take a crack a the harder question:
    
    	Why do people cheat?
    
    Well, my own personal feeling, backed up by talking to both "cheaters"
    and "cheated on" is that men and women cheat for different reasons.
    (Gasp! How un-PC!) Women *usually* "cheat" because they feel unloved,
    unappreciated, or because they miss intimacy. Cuddling, talking,
    feeling good with another person. The "other person" makes them
    feel good *about* *themselves*. Men, on the other hand, usually
    "cheat" for sex. Physical pleasure, the feeling of conquest, and
    the affirmation of their masculinity.
    
    I once read an interesting survey about what constituted "cheating"
    (infidelity). There was a range of things, including such things as
    fanstasizing about someone else, kissing someone else, hugging, being
    naked with, having dinner alone with, having sex with, touching etc.
    The question was what actually constituted "infidelity". The range of
    responses, and the breakdown by sex and age was fascinating. 
    
    My criterion is simple. If you've agreed not to do it, and you do,
    that's bad. If you haven't talked about it, then you've got problems
    waiting to happen. My spouse and I have talked about it, and we have
    agreed on what is acceptable and what isn't. One thing we have agreed
    is to talk about things FIRST. We've agreed, spontaneous "casual"
    sex is NOT allowed. I don't feel comfortable describing further
    details of our relationship in such a public forum, especially one
    as judgemental as this one.
    
    It's worked for us for 12 years.
    
    	-- Charles

    Re .18, Charles, I definitely think you're right about the different
    reasons why men and women cheat.  There are a few exceptions for
    both men and women, but mostly I think they fall into the categories
    you describe.  I feel this way because of conversations I've had
    with friends and my own experience.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .16  my experience has been the opposite - when I see a woman
    dressed tastefully, with a nice neat hairdo and simple makeup, it
    always turns out she's married. the single women try to outdo each
    other in tastelessness (read fashion) these days. it's gotten so
    i don't have to check for rings anymore ;-)/2
    
    Of course, there *are* exceptions, and seeking them out is well
    worth doing. 
    I'd have to add that a lot of married guys seem to get pot-gutted
    in a hurry. 

    re: .0
    
    Because its their nature to do so ...........

    As non-explanatory as "instinct"

    
    re Bob E
    
    Whose nature?

    "Mean Gene" you sound sometimes like your talking tongue-in-cheek
    but even if you are I like your ideas!  You absolutely have to "build
    your own walls" and "protect yourself" for the simple reason that
    we cannot make another person act the way we want them to - ever.
    
    All the general reasons given here why men cheat and why women cheat
    are right on.  But the reason this particular person in question
    cheated can be found in the relationship.  Is it generally good?
    Then I'd suspect the conquest-type or ego-stroking reasons.  Is
    he withdrawn?  Cool?  Then I'd suspect the looking-for-someone-else
    reasons.  Did you piss him off recently?  Then I'd suspect the revenge
    reasons.
    
    The general whys and wherefores mean very little in the way of help
    in one's particular situation.  Stop and really think about your
    relationship and you'll probably click on the answer.
    
    Is there trust afterwards?  Sometimes.  It depends on first the
    reason he cheated.  Cheating for revenge for instance makes for
    a tougher situation than cheating for ego-stroking.  How much real 
    love there is on both sides has to be determined, and then your own ego
    has to be explored.  Could you live with it if everything else
    were ok?  And of course your lover's reaction to getting caught
    is a prime source of information for you.   Is he contrite?  Is
    he angry at YOU for catching him, (don't laugh - this is a common
    reaction of the embarassed, caught cheater)?  Is he silent and just 
    leaving you to deal with the pain?  I'd begin with his reaction
    and work backward with him through his reasons finishing at your
    mutual perception of the relationship and investment in it.
    
    Is the "other" woman at any fault at all?   I've heard this reasoning
    from many of my female friends.  In a desperate desire to strike
    out and blame somebody, women have said to me, "What kind of woman would
    DO such a thing?"  Or, "She KNEW he was living with me - what is
    she, stupid?"
    
    Get your mind off the woman, who has no obligation to you whatsoever,
    on onto your man, who does.  Whether this woman sleeps with whoever
    is the last customer in the bar or whether she was a virgin until
    seduced by your lover makes no difference at all.  She is either
    free to sleep with whomever she wants or she must answer to HER
    lover.  In any case she does not need to answer to you.  Wasting
    time imagining what kind of slut she must be is pointless.
    
    It's corny to say, but this kind of situation CAN be positive. 
    Your lover could realize that a quick fling isn't as quick as he
    thought it was and could decide from real knowledge that it just
    isn't for him.  He may be much wiser next time.  You will have the
    knowledge that your man is faithful because HE wants to be and not
    just going through the motions to keep you sleeping with him.
    
    And really, I've even heard men say that sex with love beats everything
    else, hands down.  She may be strange, she may even be hot, but you're
    the incumbent and he is without a doubt more comfortable in bed
    with you.
    
    And one final thought - the only exchange is fidelity for fidelity.
    If he takes his away you can't make him give it back.  You can only
    take yours away.  That's the only power you have.  If you love him
    and think the relationship has a chance, save it as your last resort.
    Just don't be a doormat and think your fidelity will breed the same
    in an otherwise distracted male.

                        <standing ovation>
    
    .24
    
    How do you always manage to say "just the right thing" and in just
    the right words???  
    
                        With much respect-
    
                                  D.
    
    

    Well thank you, but there are those who don't agree with you!
    
    :-)
    
    Sandy

    
    re: .26
    
    I almost never agree with you, but that seemed pretty spot-on to
    me.
                  
    DFW

    RE: 24, & 26 

    I agree with you. Coming from the standpoint that I'm in a relationship
right now and not quite certain what is "wrong" with it. I haven't been able
to identify what the problem is despite making an effort to discuss it with
the other half. There is little communication coming from the other half, a
lot of silence and withdrawl. Perhaps an infidelity is the issue. I don't
know and I don't know what to do because of the lack of communication. For a 
little backround my SO just returned form a four city business trip through
the far east and returned a different person. Which leads me to believe that
something happened on this business trip. When I've made an effort to dis-
cuss the "problem" all I get is, "everything is fine, I'm tired, it was a 
tough trip...". It's very frustrating. 

    I've decided I'm not going to react and to simply take it one day at a 
time. We don't live together which compounds it. I feel if we were living
together and sleeping in the same bed every night it might help to open up
the communication. Simply by default that we were together more. As it is
now it seems we're back to square one, newly dating and going through all
of the common courtesies of "how about dinner on Friday night...". And then
wondering what the other is doing the rest of the week.. sigh.. 

    Suggestions? Comments? 				-Thomas 

    Thomas-if she refuses to discuss it with you, then you are at
    a stalemate.  You'll either accept the status quo or leave...
    
    To play devil's advocate-perhaps she is telling you the truth.
    Maybe she really is 'just tired'.  Coincidentally, last night
    I read an article in Ladies Home Journal (it was either last
    month's or the current issue), about women that are "too tired
    for sex".  It discusses women and their reaction to fatigue and
    stress.  It also mentions that women react differently to these
    negative influences.  And that men sometimes don't understand.
    Perhaps you could locate this article.  Perhaps it would be help-
    ful to you.  Of course, I may be way off base on this, but it's
    worth a shot, right?
    
                            Deb
    
    

re: .23
    
    You asked me "Whose nature ? "
    
    >Why would someone in a serious relationship that is going very
    >well be unfaithful, to that person?

    When the nebulous "someone" is unfaithful to someone else who thinks
    the relationship is going well; it may be because it is the NATURE
    of the unfaithful to do so !
    
    (Why else does an unfaithful companion be unfaithful if its not
    in their nature to be so ?)    
    
    Bob
    

re; 29

	Thank you, Deb. I haven't read/seen the article, but will 
look for it. 

	I should have been more clear in my initial message, when
we met at the airport on Saturday night it was like a different per-
son, based upon what I dropped off a week prior. I'd have imagined
that after a few days the "fatigue" would have subsided, after all
this is Wednesday.. Sex really wasn't the issue, the issue was we
were not communicating like we had, we were not expressing affection,
or happiness to see one another after a week long trip where we 
couldn't even really communicate by telephone due to time difference. 
I'm having a difficult time understanding how such a dramatic change
in personality (committment?) could happen in seven days. It is like 
night and day. Before the trip we discussed all sorts of plans for the 
future and now it is nothing.. no telephone calls, no dinner dates, no 
weekends away, no "quiet" time just for us.. we haven't even seen one 
another since Sunday and I haven't received one telephone call.. I've
called and left messages on the recorder but haven't had one return
call.. I've never been so tired that I couldn't pick up the telephone 
and call the person I've been dating for several months.. especially 
after being away for a week and only seeing them once since returning
home. It doesn't make sense.. 

	When we do speak next I will have confront some of these issues
and deal with them, if it means letting go, then I will and I'll have to
live with that. Difficult and painful as it will be.. I do know that I
don't want to go through this every time after a separation in the future. 
It isn't worth it.. 

							-Thomas 

    

    Oh, I should have been more clear.  While the article does
    deal with sexual issues, it also touches on communication
    and emotional issues, since emotions and sex often work
    hand in hand (what did THAT mean?)
    
    Anyway, you're right.  Her behavior doesn't make sense.  I think
    it just doesn't make sense to you because you don't have all the
    information necessary to make it clear.  Sounds like she is with-
    holding valuable info...
    
                        Deb
    
    Still a good article to read
    
    

  re: .31  Just a thought.  I spent about 2 weeks in Panama shortly after my
wife and I were married.  I don't know if youv'e ever been to a Third World
country or not, but being there had a *dramatic* effect on me.  I had to deal
with situations you only see on the news.  Anyway the point is that when I got
home my wife had missed me terribly, and was ready to spend hours totally
consumed in each other.  I, on the other hand, was dealing with the total
differences in lifestyles, culture, freedom, and basically the realization that
the life I was leading was not the standard for the rest of the world.  In
other words I was feeling and thinking on a life/ death philosophic level, my
wife was thinking and feeling on the together- ness, intemate level - and never
the twain shall meet.  It took me a good deal of time to get back to normal and
it was a little ruff because she kept asking me what was wrong, was it her,
didn't I love her anymore, and I tried to tell her that there was nothing wrong
with us, I just couldn't explain to her all that I was feeling; I was still in
sensory overload. 

  Maybe you need to give it some more time and support.  I would recommend not
pushing too hard, just a little knudge now and then to test the water. Of
course you can't wait for ever but what seems like a long time to you might
seem like a blink to her.  Hang in there! 

Rick