Conference quark::mennotes-v1

    RE: .1
    
    I think your statements are much too general.
    
    Beautiful women, are just as nice, friendly, caring, compassionate
    as other women.  Not all women are alike, no matter what they look
    like.  Try getting acquainted with a "beautiful" woman, you might
    like it.  :-)

    Yes, my statements are purposefully very general. Obviously there
    will be women who are sensitive, caring, compassionate and all those
    good things and also very physically attractive. I guess I'm tryin
    to get at that attitude I feel when I see some women. It does seem
    like they don't want to be bothered by any men unless they can live
    up to some unrealistically high standard(appearance, money, status)
    I just picture all these men from Dynasty and the women seem to
    be waiting for nothing less. The prince in shining armor type. 
    I'd like to shoot this theory down, but it sure seems like it is
    quite true.

    
    
    	Where ARE these women??? :-)
    
    	  Mostly, I find out that they ARE involved, usually with Brutus
    	Beefcake or Jerry Jock. You know, the "6'2", 195lbs, no fat,
    	runs 7 a day, drives a Vette, has a condo, etc...."  Ok, ok,
   	not ALWAYS but I don't know of many that aren't involved.
    
    	  Here in LKG we have some of the best looking women around
    	(you're welcome ladies :-)) and if I try, I can usually find
    	out who is single and who isn't. I think it comes with being
    	a system manager and knowing ALOT of people here. Most of 
    	the women that "catch my eye", shall we say, ARE taken.. SO,
    	based on that, I ALMOST find it difficult to understand but
    	then again, I have problems getting dates and I'm told I
    	shouldn't by all my "taken" girl-friends. (of course)
    
    	FWIW, single, gorgeous women in LKG are invited to stop by and
    	discuss this with me. I'm at pole B13 on the 3rd floor.  (Lots
    	of smiley-faces!)
    
    						mike
    						Moderator of SINGLES

    Thanx for your comment Mike. I am also one of those people who my
    "taken" women friends cannot believe does not have a multitude of
    dates or at least one significant SO. I can't understand it. I am
    shy, but keep tryin to ask women I find attractive out.(with little
    success thusfar) I also find many of them taken by the "beefcake"
    types which amazes me. I've talked to some of the more ardent iron-
    pumpers and many, many have little else to offer than their physique.
    
    To some of the women out there: Is it really that important that
    a man is :
                 1) Physically gorgeous, ie.; muscles galore
               
                 2) He drive a Porsche, BMW or other car(>25k)
    
                 3) He be so self-confident, ie. spit in the face 
                      of Kadhafy
    
    Again, I realize these are extremes, but it seems like these are
    the guys gettin all the women. My enquiring mind would like to 
    know.
    Jeff
    PS. I just finished reading the notes on "Are men Thin-Skinned"
    and see no need for a heated discussion here. Keep it light, this
    is just an interesting topic for me and I mean no cuts or jabs to
    anyone.

    woman's point of view here...
    
    Big muscles on a man are SOOOO very nice.  Not required, but CERTAINLY
    nice.  A couple years ago, I dated a man who was "built".  I felt
    so inane when he flexed his arm and I said "ooooooh, do it again."
    
    Spitting at Quadafy type machismo is a big turn-off and it often
    comes with the muscles, unfortunately.
    
    I'm sure you XYs can relate to the idea that it's NICE to go out
    with someone who's nice to look at, but looks are by no means required
    for someone to be attractive, even on a first date.
    
    Lee

Another woman's point of view, I've always found that no matter what someone
looks like, they seem to change as I get to know them. In other words, if I
really get to know someone and I like them, I find they get better looking the
more I get to know them. And if I start to dislike someone I find that they seem
to get ugly. Weird maybe, but the important thing is, if you don't find someone
attractive at first sight it doesn't mean you can't get to know them. If you
don't want to date someone that you don't find attractive then that's your
business but don't rule out the possibility of making a friend. As for the macho
men types....yuck. I like muscles and all that but I'll take a scruffy looking
Indiana Jones type any day.

Jenna Pooh

Oh yeah, and getting back to the original question. I think that women/men
who spend lots of time trying to make themselves look perfect would prefer
to be with someone who looks at least as good. Folks who think that looks
are everything, or at least most important, tend to find each other even tho
their personalities are mismatched. At the place I go swimming there are a 
couple of women that are there every day. I can get out of the pool, take my
shower, get dressed and dry my hair in less time than it takes for them to
put on their faces. One day I overheard this conversation:

Woman #1: Why does Jack still drive that station wagon?
Woman #2: Because he has lots of junk to carry around.
Woman #1: But aren't you embarrassed to be seen in that car?
Woman #2: Yes, but he likes it
Woman #1: Well, if so-and-so (forget the name) ever gets that kind of car
	  I'll stop seeing him.
    
Pretty silly I'd say but to each his/her own.

	I seem tyo remember in high school ... senior prom time that
no one in the school had asked RENE to the prom... various reasons...
she's too pretty... i dont got no wheels... etc.  ... I overheard a conversation
and discovered that BUZZY BROCCOLI had asked her. (only guy to do so) they
went and had a great time...
	25 years later this seems goofy... I personally have never had any
problem with asking out a pretty girl or a not so pretty one for that matter...
	What matters to me is what is inside their head... this doesnt mean
that I am attracted to cows, walruses etc. but I can get along just nicely
with the girl next door and a litle CHEMISTRY (read that PHEMONES)... 
Initial attraction counts but the inside comes out soon and then it
doesnt matter how pretty they are ... a witch is a witch...
	After my divorce, I was amazed at the forwardness of todays' NEW
women... and it took a little re-orientation (read that re-education)
to learn how to say no thanx... 
		Time for a story....
I went one nite to pick up my sister from work after an interview in Providence
and she says she dont need a ride...(no boy scout points for that one)...but
that some people from her shop are going to have a farwell party... I had meet 
her crew before and they had a bunch of single ladies ... so I said I would
tag along...... I'm getting carried away.... well that nite I meet two girls
..one I had seen around before... the other I meet later on ... turns out
that they are both models and know each other... well it looks like I
picked that rite one... the inside of her head is great and I've been with
her ever since...the other was the one that I had seen around... she is a
gold digger...

					$bill

    Beautiful women must have terrible problems with dating!!
    
    Hey, God?  If there really is reincarnation, can being beautiful
    be my biggest problem next time?
    

    
    Re last couple
    
         But didn't you know that all women are beautiful in 
         one way or another. To parley on an old expression
         looks are only skin deep, beautiful goes to the soul,
         and comes from the heart.
    
                                 Bob B

Re: last 2 or 3.

Be careful what you ask for, you just *might* get it!  

Beauty of the heart and Soul is more important to me than beauty of
the body.  Although beauty of the body is what probably gets my
attention. 

If I sense that you (female person) are honest with yourself then I 
hope/believe you will be honest with me.  That is really all I can 
hope for.  I also say what is important to me and ask what is 
important to you.  If we both listen then maybe we have a chance of 
finding out what the reality is between us.

I just started going out with a new female friend.  What I have
consistently told her is that "I will treat you the way I want to be
treated."  So far she has been very accepting of me.  We are
proceeding slowly in all this and I think that is the best way to go. 
I am learning about new and expanded meanings to the word patience, 
control and discipline.  :-):-):-)

- Howard

    
    RE: -2 or so
    
    Bob!  That was really lovely...even tho it's an old saying, you
    sure said it well.  I wish all men thought that way.
    
    :-(
    
    Lorna [and rest] AMEN!  Add me to the "me too's".
    
    Becky

    Hey, I watched that show (I love Oprah)...
    
    There were 4 woman and 3 men... of the four woman, one was Tracy
    Ross of Star Search Fame, and one was the female who fell all over
    Robert Redford in Legal Eagles.. the blonde hair one (help me out
    someone).. the third from the left was UGLY as far as I was concerned
    (was the star of some soap opera) and the first one on the left I 
    didn't know, but was on the cover of ALL the mags...
    
    Of the men there were 3 of them, and I only knew the one in the
    middle (who's name escapes me right now)...
    
    What all four woman said was that they 1. Didn't know how to flirt
    2. Where so busy with making it in modeling/acting they didn't learn
    how to date 3. the first girl on the left refused to call a guy,
    EVER, 4. Thought that men would not approach them because men thought
    they looked pretty.  It was also surprising to note that all but
    the chick who was in Legal Eagles thoght they were NOT pretty..
    
    One of the three guys asked one of the four woman out, right on
    the show, and she turned him down, although one of the two did make
    a match right on the show, and I bet they are dating now :-)...
    
    The moral of the show was, that no matter WHO you are, what you
    look like, etc, that it is difficult in the dating scene... that
    you have to just be yourself, and get past the "outer" self to the
    inner self... All seven of these people said that although they
    might not be the cutest person in the world they were pretty inside

    I'm sure glad Ophra moved to Channel 5 at 5!
    
    Gale

    Gale:
    
    Glad someone else saw the same show, I was feeling like a couch
    potato. Anyway, the point you made about the one woman who WOULD
    NOT call a man up was something I missed. I think women should start
    taking on some of that responsibility nowadays. Why not? It's tough
    for all of us and if we start sharing the burden of the initial
    opening, life may be smoother.(and maybe these beautiful women wouldn't
    have dating problems) I haven't been asked out since High School,
    I wouldn't mind havin the shoe on the other foot every now and then.
    
    Anyone?  Whaddya' think about women asking out men?
    
    

    	What do I think about women asking men out?  Women should have
    assumed some of this responsibilty years ago, though society was
    not ready for such a 'brazen' act until rather recently.
    
    	People should not sit idle and wait for life to knock on the
    door.  If a person wants company for an evening or the rest of life
    then the person should seek out the company.
    
    Douglas

    
     If the lady from the movie "legal Eagles" was the tall blond,
     that was Dayerl Hanna (SP ? ) and if shes having a tough time
     finding a date I may invest in a plane ride to the coast ..;-)
    
     And I can hear it now ....Ya, right, Barber, fer shure fer shure
     keep dreaming ........
    
     On the other side , Ya, this is the eighties, I see no reason
     why a lady couldn't ask a man out to talk over a cup of coffee
     or something similar, if she were interested in getting to know
     him. Is that a traditional date ?? no not really, but it would
     afford two people a chance to talk and find out about each other.
    
                               Bob B

    	On those infrequent occasions when women have called *me* I've
    been tickled pink. those calls always led to a night out, dinner
    or whatever. Any woman who calls has allready taken the biggest
    hurdle out of the game - "Is she interested ?" 
    As for the models and other high-fashion types, the ones i've met
    seemed too materialistic. then again, my idea of dressup is cords
    and a sportshirt :-)

    Well, I don't think I would ever call and ask a guy out that I was
    REALLY interested in.  I don't mind letting him know I am available
    for going out with him, but I would not ask him out...
    
    Now after we have been dating for awhile, that's different, then
    I don't mind saying can we go to "X" or do "Y"...
    
    Just one person's opinion...
    
    GLK

    My wife asked me out on our first date. I would never have worked
    up the nerve to ask someone that good looking out and she got tired
    of waiting for me to take the hints. I saw nothing wrong with her
    asking me out. Just letting a guy know you would go out with him
    is often not enough. Some of us are painfully shy. Like me.
    
    		Alfred

    
    	Dare I say it Alfred?  And me too sometimes....
    
    							mike

    
    Me too! 

    I thought Darryl Hannah lived with rock musician Jackson Browne...if
    she's into a left-wing, radical, anti-nuke spokesperson like Jackson
    Browne I don't know *what* she'd make of a military guy who's into
    guns...(only kidding, Bob :), what the heck take a chance and fly
    out there anyway :):).
    
    Lorna
    

    My 13 year old daughter was also pleased to find out that Kirk Cameron
    was without a girlfirend, and was looking for one...  
    
    After seeing the show, I was surprised to find out that the grass
    isn't always greener on the other side...
    
    G

    
     RE .27   I have had this thing for MS Hannah since I saw her in
              the film "Summer Lovers". What surprises me is that I
              had heard from someone ( negbhor or whoever ) that she
              was involved with blank de blank. And then here she is
              on TV saying she can't get or find a date. I really find
              that real difficult to believe. As far as me getting 
              together with her, its like I said in the other note,
              dream on ......... Ahhhhhhhh     :-)

                                          Bob B

    ask a guy out *sigh*.  it's so hard.  i just feel like if the
    big rejection comes, it's harder to take.  i guess so many guys
    seem to think it's so nice to be asked out by a girl, why is this
    guy saying no?
    
    as far as the really nice looking men, i have more of a tendency
    to shy away from them.  i think i just can't expect him to settle
    for me when he could have anyone else he wanted.  the confidence
    level dips *low*.  maybe i've had to share too many men in my life.
    
    i did just recently meet someone who is so totally wrong for me
    that i know we have no where to go.  just in it for the fun, and
    you know, he is treating me better right now, and calling me more
    than any of the *nice* guys i've met in a while.  but i'm still
    sharing.....
    

    re .22, .23, .30  What I should have said in .22 is that if a 
    woman calls, just to say "hi", I will do the asking out. She 
    needn't do the asking, too. On the other hand, if a lady calls
    a man and he *doesn't* ask her out he's either not interested
    or *very* shy. We all have to deal with each other's apprehension
    as best we can. And our own.
    
    dana

    Wasn't there once an old saying about birds of a feather?  I always
    thought beautiful people dated other beautiful people.  Maybe there
    is a shortage of handsome men for these girls.  I would feel like
    Henry Gibson (remember "Laugh-In") if I had a date with a really
    beautiful girl.  

    George Fenneman(sp?) once told a story that belongs here.  He and
    Groucho Marx were standing in line to be seated for lunch when a
    really striking young lady came up and stood in line behind Groucho.
    After several minutes when it became apparent that the lady was
    alone, Groucho turned and said 'excuse me Miss, but are you alone?'
    to which she replied that she was and Groucho replied 'well then
    there must be something terribly wrong with you!'.

    	I have dated someone who to this day was/is the most physically
    	attractive man I've ever laid eyes on.  It was wonderful to be
    	seen in public with him (a lot of ego gratification on my part)
    	and after about six months of being together I realized most of 
    	our time WAS spent in public, because as time went on he seemed 
    	to have less and less *inner* attraction and I had a decreasing
    	desire to be alone with him.

    	I have a headline that I clipped from the London Times which
    	reads "The Agony of Being Born Too Beautiful."  It can be true,
    	if only for the fact that people might automatically categorize
    	you as empty, but this again points to the *need* to discover
    	the inner beauty, even of a physically beautiful person.
            	    
    	Just a new reader's perspective...
    
    						Carla
        	
	

	 I probably shouldn't reply to this note since its a year old,
	 but what the heck...

	 I wouldn't consider myself beautiful...but attractive...everyone
	 says I'm nice...i'm very outgoing...but I can't seem to get a
	 date either...I always get the line "I figured you HAD a
	 boyfriend" when a guy finds out I'm very single... oh well!

         Also..the "asking the man out" bit that came up...I've done
         that a lot and always seem to get turned down with a "I don't
         know what will come up but I'll get back to you" (as if...if
         something else came up that would be more fun to do...then
         forget it...why can't men seems to be able to think two or
         three days in advance?) But the same men turn around a few
         weeks later and ask me out (20 minutes before the show or
         something like that) and get angry when I have other plans... 

	 Hum...no wonder I don't ask men out anymore...I should have a
	 COMPLEX by now!  :-)

	 Sorry to reply to this one after a year...but I had to put in
	 my 2 cents worth...(as I wade through all these interesting
	 notes trying to catch up!)

	 kathy